Dog Food Study

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

No wonder this place is a ghost town. These "bleep" dog food threads never stop.

[pato y codoniz]

This is my last post.

First performance is very real, it is primarily what is judged in a field trial. Without the best nutrition and conditioning dogs cannot display the other traits.

All the top pros are campaigning dogs with very similar genetics, they all are close in ability as trainers and handlers, all work hard. They pretty much take turns winning, some slow with age, and there are always young talent emerging, and ever so often they find an extraordinary dog.

So if there were a major flaw in Purina or the other proven brands, the first to discover a better alternative would tilt the scales and dominate. It would not have to be dramatically better, just a little would be enough. If these superior ingredients gave just a small increase in stamina, strength, cardio, etc. It would result in a better performance and more wins. And we would hear about it and switch.

I am done.

It should be your last post on the subject because, even with your chosen line of logic, your conclusion is misguided.

If you want to make a performance based decision regarding dog food, pick an event where strength, stamina, and recovery is measured. The event that obviously pushes all those to the extreme is the iditarod. In that 9 to 11 day event, the food that has been dominant is Dr. Tim's.

Btw, let's not pretend that many trialers don't feed based upon their wallets and use what is cost effective or free. I was a factory sponsored shooter for over 15 years. While I would have never chosen much of my equipment had it not been free, it allowed me to compete during high school, undergrad and grad school.

[pato y codoniz]

Clink, I just happened to be working with the research farm back at the time Corm Gluten became available as a by-product of the Ethanol industry and we run many tests on it trying to find where it fit into the animal feeding protocol. The thing we found is one of the most complete vegetable source proteins ever. It is has been very economical while the Ethanol industry prospers but the main thing is its profile as a protein supplement. I have no idea where you got your info on it but you are way off the mark. Because something is new and economical does not tell you a thing about the quality, as price is normally based on availability and new products are being tested everyday. They are not poor because they are cheap and they are not bad because they are new.

I don't care if corn gluten is a really complete vegetable protein because it has a horribly lopsided amino acid profile which requires lysine supplementation.

Pro Plan is essentially rice and corn porridge (both calorie dense but nutrient sparse), topped with corn protein (which necessitates lysine supplementation) , poultry byproduct meal and fish meal, and a sprinkling of of non-chealted and non-proteinated vitamins (which means actual absorbtion is low) because the entire concoction is so nutrionally void that, with their addition, the nutrient profIle would be comically bad.

So while you're correct, cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it's worse. In this case and as a generality, it does.

[ezzy333]

There is no point in addressing the amino acid profile since you have your mind made up even though you are running years behind.. Good luck and I hope you can always find a food that isn't supplemented, what ever that means in your world.

Ezzy

[clink83]

This is my last post.

First performance is very real, it is primarily what is judged in a field trial. Without the best nutrition and conditioning dogs cannot display the other traits.

All the top pros are campaigning dogs with very similar genetics, they all are close in ability as trainers and handlers, all work hard. They pretty much take turns winning, some slow with age, and there are always young talent emerging, and ever so often they find an extraordinary dog.

So if there were a major flaw in Purina or the other proven brands, the first to discover a better alternative would tilt the scales and dominate. It would not have to be dramatically better, just a little would be enough. If these superior ingredients gave just a small increase in stamina, strength, cardio, etc. It would result in a better performance and more wins. And we would hear about it and switch.

I am done.

It should be your last post on the subject because, even with your chosen line of logic, your conclusion is misguided.

If you want to make a performance based decision regarding dog food, pick an event where strength, stamina, and recovery is measured. The event that obviously pushes all those to the extreme is the iditarod. In that 9 to 11 day event, the food that has been dominant is Dr. Tim's.

Btw, let's not pretend that many trialers don't feed based upon their wallets and use what is cost effective or free. I was a factory sponsored shooter for over 15 years. While I would have never chosen much of my equipment had it not been free, it allowed me to compete during high school, undergrad and grad school.

Bingo. I was a ski patroller for a couple of years, and most of my equipment choices was who gave the best pro deals. Marketing people who sell to lifestyle sports aren't stupid.

[pato y codoniz]

There is no point in addressing the amino acid profile since you have your mind made up even though you are running years behind.. Good luck and I hope you can always find a food that isn't supplemented, what ever that means in your world.

Ezzy

Running years behind?

Even the suppliers of corn gluten meal cite it's unbalanced profile and unavailability of certain amino acids in the profile and say it necessitates amino acid supplementation.

There are plenty of kibbles that offer a well balanced nutrional profile from whole foods and don't necessitate amino acid supplementation due to cheap ingredients.

Here is the ingredient list of one (38/20)...

Boneless chicken
chicken meal
chicken liver
whole herring
boneless turkey
turkey meal
turkey liver
whole eggs
Boneless walleye
whole salmon
chicken heart
chicken cartilage
herring meal
salmon meal
chicken liver oil
chicken fat
red lentils
green peas
green lentils
sun-cured alfalfa
yams
pea fiber
chickpeas
pumpkin
butternut squash
spinach greens
carrots
Red Delicious apples
Bartlett pears
cranberries
blueberries
brown kelp
licorice root
angelica root
fenugreek
marigold flowers
sweet fennel
peppermint leaf
chamomile
dandelion
Summer savory
rosemary
Enterococcus faecium.

Vitamin A supplement
vitamin D3 supplement
vitamin E Supplement
zinc proteinate
dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product


Here is the ingredient list of another (42/22)...

Turkey
Chicken
Chicken Meal
Salmon Meal
Menhaden Meal
Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Source of Vitamin E)
Peas
Tapioca Starch
Natural Flavors
Apples
Eggs
Tomatoes
Carrots
Potassium Chloride
Salt
Cottage Cheese
Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate)
Alfalfa Sprouts
Dried Chicory Root Extract
Vitamin E Supplement
Ascorbic Acid

Vitamins (Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid)

Direct Fed Microbials (Dried Enterococcus faecium, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, Dried Lactobacillus casei)

Rosemary Extract

Here is the ingredients list of the beloved Pro Plan 30/20...

Chicken
Corn gluten meal
Brewer's rice
Animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E)
Poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine)
Whole grain corn
Corn germ meal
Fish meal (natural source of glucosamine)
Animal digest
Fish oil
Dried egg product
Salt
Calcium carbonate
Potassium chloride
Calcium phosphate
Vitamin E supplement
Choline chloride
L-Lysine monohydrochloride
L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C)
Zinc sulfate
Ferrous sulfate
Manganese sulfate
Niacin
Vitamin A supplement
Calcium pantothenate
Thiamine mononitrate
Copper sulfate
Riboflavin supplement
Vitamin B-12 supplement
Pyridoxine hydrochloride
Garlic oil
Folic acid
Vitamin D-3 supplement
Calcium iodate
Biotin
Menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity)
Sodium selenite

[clink83]

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10 ... 02.63.1247

A quick glance at google scholar shows there is very little to no published research on CGM as a dog food. Hmm...
A quick perusal through other research papers on other animals show it can cause lyseine deficency in animals fed it.

[Neil]

Sorry, I can't remain silent with such misinformation and nonsense.

The total earnings of the winner at Ames is $100,000+, up to a million. We are not talking about a box of free shells or a discount on a parka. Not even Purina could afford to buy off all the competitors, if their food did not perform.

It over-shadows the value of the dog winning the Iditarod by 50 fold (where only the lead dog has any value).

Be we don't operate in a vacuum, we freely exchange information with the other canine performance sports. Their top dog food is Red Paw, and interesting the number 2 ingredient is corn! We have tried all their food, and without exception they cause gastric distress in pointing dogs; diarrhoea, gas, dehydration, even vomiting. Too much of a good thing is my guess. Oh, perhaps not germane, but you do know pointers are banned from competing?

You guys are talking laboratory, I am talking real world hunting dogs.

[ezzy333]

They are not talking laboratory. They are talking a complete lack of understanding of nutrition and why every feed is made up of several ingredients since there is not one ingredient that can fulfill the needs of an animal. That is why EVERY feed has multiple ingredients that supplement each other hopefully at a reasonable cost.

[Neil]

They are not talking laboratory. They are talking a complete lack of understanding of nutrition and why every feed is made up of several ingredients since there is not one ingredient that can fulfill the needs of an animal. That is why EVERY feed has multiple ingredients that supplement each other hopefully at a reasonable cost.

True.

[clink83]

They are not talking laboratory. They are talking a complete lack of understanding of nutrition and why every feed is made up of several ingredients since there is not one ingredient that can fulfill the needs of an animal. That is why EVERY feed has multiple ingredients that supplement each other hopefully at a reasonable cost.

Do you have any scientific evidence to support that? I haven't seen you show any real evidence to support your claim other than "I said so, so it must be true". There is a burden of proof in scientifific subjects, and its not filled by "I said so" or "because we use it its the best". Both you and Neil are avoiding any talk about the actual nutritional value of the ingredients, and relying on logical phallacies.

Human beings have a more efficient digestive system than dogs, and no one would dream of feeding CGM or brewers rice to a professional athlete because we know its poor quality.

[pato y codoniz]

They are not talking laboratory. They are talking a complete lack of understanding of nutrition and why every feed is made up of several ingredients since there is not one ingredient that can fulfill the needs of an animal. That is why EVERY feed has multiple ingredients that supplement each other hopefully at a reasonable cost.

You're right because advocating the use of horribly imbalanced cheap protein sources, like cgm, which necessitates dumping a bunch of amino acid powder into the mix, according to the manufacturers and suppliers, instead of using higher quality protein sources, is showing an "understanding of nutrition".

It is comical at this point that your advocating for vegetable sourced protein plus amino acid powders over animal sourced protein.

Btw, the only real question about pro plan is if the primary source of protein in that feed is from corn protein.

[pato y codoniz]

It over-shadows the value of the dog winning the Iditarod by 50 fold (where only the lead dog has any value).

Be we don't operate in a vacuum, we freely exchange information with the other canine performance sports. Their top dog food is Red Paw, and interesting the number 2 ingredient is corn!

Now you're just being a contrarian.

Please tell me how red paw is the top iditarod kibble when Dr Tim's has won it 3 years in a row including 4 of the top 5 in 2014?

It is all about winning, right? I'll wait.

[pato y codoniz]

They are not talking laboratory. They are talking a complete lack of understanding of nutrition and why every feed is made up of several ingredients since there is not one ingredient that can fulfill the needs of an animal. That is why EVERY feed has multiple ingredients that supplement each other hopefully at a reasonable cost.

Do you have any scientific evidence to support that? I haven't seen you show any real evidence to support your claim other than "I said so, so it must be true". There is a burden of proof in scientifific subjects, and its not filled by "I said so" or "because we use it its the best". Both you and Neil are avoiding any talk about the actual nutritional value of the ingredients, and relying on logical phallacies.

Human beings have a more efficient digestive system than dogs, and no one would dream of feeding CGM or brewers rice to a professional athlete because we know its poor quality.

You mean the athletes really don't eat their Wheaties? Now, I feel misled.

One look at the ingredients list and it is pretty clear that pro plan is a proteinated and fortified rice and corn based cereal.

[Nutmeg247]

Sorry, I can't remain silent with such misinformation and nonsense.

The total earnings of the winner at Ames is $100,000+, up to a million. We are not talking about a box of free shells or a discount on a parka. Not even Purina could afford to buy off all the competitors, if their food did not perform.

It over-shadows the value of the dog winning the Iditarod by 50 fold (where only the lead dog has any value).

Be we don't operate in a vacuum, we freely exchange information with the other canine performance sports. Their top dog food is Red Paw, and interesting the number 2 ingredient is corn! We have tried all their food, and without exception they cause gastric distress in pointing dogs; diarrhoea, gas, dehydration, even vomiting. Too much of a good thing is my guess. Oh, perhaps not germane, but you do know pointers are banned from competing?

You guys are talking laboratory, I am talking real world hunting dogs.

Pointers are banned from sled dog events? Interesting. I know Eurohounds have various mixes including pointer or GSP along with sighthound, etc. but other races (Eurohounds do shorter distances) may have different rules. Relative to the Eurohounds I've seen (which is not a lot) pointers seem to have good endurance but are slow.

For Redpaw, I've used 32k and 38k with my pointer, and so long as he is active he does well with either except I give him some drumsticks or darkmeat quarters to firm things up a bit with the 38k. Weeks where activity is less (like this one) I cut the 38k with Dog Chow. The thing with the corn in their kibbles that have it is that it rounds out the overall profile of the kibble. The dog's system doesn't know where all its nutrients come from, so what's the difference if it is from corn versus different sources?

Not a substantive point, but my fiancé complains that Redpaw looks like deer droppings. So they may be guilty of lack of marketing savvy. But, as regards the dog, the dog doesn't know if it's shaped like lucky charms or like deer leavings.

[pato y codoniz]

Sorry, I can't remain silent with such misinformation and nonsense.

The total earnings of the winner at Ames is $100,000+, up to a million. We are not talking about a box of free shells or a discount on a parka. Not even Purina could afford to buy off all the competitors, if their food did not perform.

It over-shadows the value of the dog winning the Iditarod by 50 fold (where only the lead dog has any value).

Be we don't operate in a vacuum, we freely exchange information with the other canine performance sports. Their top dog food is Red Paw, and interesting the number 2 ingredient is corn! We have tried all their food, and without exception they cause gastric distress in pointing dogs; diarrhoea, gas, dehydration, even vomiting. Too much of a good thing is my guess. Oh, perhaps not germane, but you do know pointers are banned from competing?

You guys are talking laboratory, I am talking real world hunting dogs.

Pointers are banned from sled dog events? Interesting. I know Eurohounds have various mixes including pointer or GSP along with sighthound, etc. but other races (Eurohounds do shorter distances) may have different rules. Relative to the Eurohounds I've seen (which is not a lot) pointers seem to have good endurance but are slow.

For Redpaw, I've used 32k and 38k with my pointer, and so long as he is active he does well with either except I give him some drumsticks or darkmeat quarters to firm things up a bit with the 38k. Weeks where activity is less (like this one) I cut the 38k with Dog Chow. The thing with the corn in their kibbles that have it is that it rounds out the overall profile of the kibble. The dog's system doesn't know where all its nutrients come from, so what's the difference if it is from corn versus different sources?

Not a substantive point, but my fiancé complains that Redpaw looks like deer droppings. So they may be guilty of lack of marketing savvy. But, as regards the dog, the dog doesn't know if it's shaped like lucky charms or like deer leavings.

And red paw 32k and 38k aren't bad foods and you're not the only one that supplements with it (sled dogs are fed tons of salmon along with their kibble).

The first several ingredients of 32k are:

Menhaden Fish Meal, Ground Corn, Poultry Fat, Chicken Meal, Pork Meat and Bone Meal...

The very first ingredients, as is the 4th, is a name animal protein concentrate and they're the primary protein sources.

The first several ingredients of 38k are:

Fish Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Poultry Fat, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Beet Pulp, Dried Egg...

The first two ingredients are animal protein concentrates. They are the primary sources of protein in this food.

Let's look at Pro Plan 30/20:

Chicken, Corn gluten meal, Brewer's rice, Animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), Poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), Whole grain corn, Corn germ meal, Fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), Animal digest, Fish oil, Dried egg product

The very first ingredient is chicken which, unlike the meals or by product meals, is an unconcentrated animal protein source that is 80% water.

They next animal protein source is a byproduct meal at 5 which leads one to believe that the primary source of proteinin pro pLan performance 30/20 is from corn gluten.

[RaiderZach]

so just what are you feeding

I am feeding Victor and my dogs do great on it

Was referred to this food by my trainer who is not a paid promoter of Victor, it just works. Switched my dog to it and hes done so much better than he did on Blue Buffalo... and its WAY less expensive.

[Neil]

This is like debating with a lazy teenager that thinks he knows everything.

From the Redpaw web site:

WINNING RESULTS

Since those humble beginnings, Redpaw has continued to improve and grow. Today, thousands of dogs throughout North America eat Redpaw's dog foods. In the mushing community, Redpaw is the winningest brand, with more top 10 finishes than all other dog food brands combined. And Redpaw customers have won more championships than any other dog food over the past 10 years. Since 2003, Redpaw customers have won the Iditarod 5 times in a row, the Yukon Quest 5 times, the Wyoming Stage Stop 5 times, just to name a few.

Corn is the second ingredient. It is true the mushers supplement with raw, high fat meats to meet the 10,000 calories a day.

And yes, pointers and setters are banned from the Iditarod.

[clink83]

This is like debating with a lazy teenager that thinks he knows everything.

From the Redpaw web site:

WINNING RESULTS

Since those humble beginnings, Redpaw has continued to improve and grow. Today, thousands of dogs throughout North America eat Redpaw's dog foods. In the mushing community, Redpaw is the winningest brand, with more top 10 finishes than all other dog food brands combined. And Redpaw customers have won more championships than any other dog food over the past 10 years. Since 2003, Redpaw customers have won the Iditarod 5 times in a row, the Yukon Quest 5 times, the Wyoming Stage Stop 5 times, just to name a few.

Corn is the second ingredient. It is true the mushers supplement with raw, high fat meats to meet the 10,000 calories a day.

And yes, pointers and setters are banned from the Iditarod.

Its funny that I just checked the ingredient list for the food redpaw recommends for working dogs, and it has no corn. Out of all their formulas, only one contains corn. Its also ground corn, which is not the same as CGM.
http://redpawdogfood.com/products/xseries/perform

What's that about lazy teenagers? You're about right as about this as you were when you insisted pointing had no genetic basis.

[pato y codoniz]

You've been blathering for 3 pages about how "if they find a better food, they'll use it" then completely ignore that Dr Tim's fed teams have dominated the iditarod over the last several years.

Dr tim's came on the market this decade and have gone on to win the iditarod in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. They had 4 of the top 5 finishers in 2014 and iirc 4 of the top 6 in 2015.

The pros have switched but you convienantly disregard your own criteria.

Interesting...

Ps. What was also interesting is how my posted was edited by a mod. One sided edit much?

This is like debating with a lazy teenager that thinks he knows everything.

From the Redpaw web site:

WINNING RESULTS

Since those humble beginnings, Redpaw has continued to improve and grow. Today, thousands of dogs throughout North America eat Redpaw's dog foods. In the mushing community, Redpaw is the winningest brand, with more top 10 finishes than all other dog food brands combined. And Redpaw customers have won more championships than any other dog food over the past 10 years. Since 2003, Redpaw customers have won the Iditarod 5 times in a row, the Yukon Quest 5 times, the Wyoming Stage Stop 5 times, just to name a few.

Corn is the second ingredient. It is true the mushers supplement with raw, high fat meats to meet the 10,000 calories a day.

And yes, pointers and setters are banned from the Iditarod.

[Nutmeg247]

...

Corn is the second ingredient. It is true the mushers supplement with raw, high fat meats to meet the 10,000 calories a day.

And yes, pointers and setters are banned from the Iditarod.

Did a Google and apparently someone was using standard poodles in the Iditarod in the 80s so they changed the rules to only Northern breeds. Very cool to learn that. From a dog health perspective, given temps and sustained exposure during that race I could see some sort of coat requirement for humane reasons, myself.

http://redpawdogfood.com/products/poweredge/32k INGREDIENTS

Menhaden Fish Meal, Ground Corn, Poultry Fat...

http://redpawdogfood.com/products/poweredge/38k

INGREDIENTS

Fish Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Poultry Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract, and citric acid), Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Beet Pulp,...

I'm sure Dr. Tim's is also a good kibble. As far as corn as an ingredient, I just don't see what the big deal is pro or con though. If the overall mix works, it works. If it works and the dog likes it and it is less expensive than other options, for me all the better.

[Grange]

Redpaw is considered unsatisfactory and should be avoided according to the study.

[nevermind]

How about we call this subject a stalemate... ATQUE live

[pato y codoniz]

As far as corn as an ingredient, I just don't see what the big deal is pro or con though. If the overall mix works, it works. If it works and the dog likes it and it is less expensive than other options, for me all the better.

I personally don't have a problem with ground corn (even when listed as "whole corn", it is ground) as long as we keep its use in the proper prospective.

There is nothing magical about corn other than it is dirt cheap source of caloriess, like brewers rice etc, that has little nutritional value. It is easily surpassed in function and nutrional value by more expensive ingredients.

What I don't care for at all is using corn gluten meal (corn protein) and amino powders as a replacement for more balanced animal proteins especially early in the ingredients list.

Also, when I see corn or cgm on an ingredient list, I'll immediately look at the grade vitamins and minerals added to the food. Are they easily available? Chelated? Proteinated?

I don't and wouldn't feed pro plan and I don't care for diamond performance (although i prefer it to pro plan) which is what most pros around here feed so when my dogs get sent off to the trainer, summer camp, or campaigned; they know that about a week before the dogs show up that there will be a food delivery.

[Grange]

As far as corn as an ingredient, I just don't see what the big deal is pro or con though. If the overall mix works, it works. If it works and the dog likes it and it is less expensive than other options, for me all the better.

I personally don't have a problem with ground corn (even when listed as "whole corn", it is ground) as long as we keep its use in the proper prospective.

There is nothing magical about corn other than it is dirt cheap source of caloriess, like brewers rice etc, that has little nutritional value. It is easily surpassed in function and nutrional value by more expensive ingredients.

What I don't care for at all is using corn gluten meal (corn protein) and amino powders as a replacement for more balanced animal proteins especially early in the ingredients list.

Also, when I see corn or cgm on an ingredient list, I'll immediately look at the grade vitamins and minerals added to the food. Are they easily available? Chelated? Proteinated?

I don't and wouldn't feed pro plan and I don't care for diamond performance (although i prefer it to pro plan) which is what most pros around here feed so when my dogs get sent off to the trainer, summer camp, or campaigned; they know that about a week before the dogs show up that there will be a food delivery.

I find corn in its various forms desirable in dog food. I have yet to find a dog food that does not have corn (grain free or not) that when fed to my dogs gives me the performance I get when I feed a good performance food with corn.

[Neil]

From Redpaw website for 32K:

INGREDIENTS
Menhaden Fish Meal, Ground Corn, Poultry Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Rosemary Extract), Chicken Meal, Pork Meat and Bone Meal, Pearled Barley, Pork Blood Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver, Brewer's Rice, Fish Oil, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Flaxseed, Salt, Potasium Chloride, Lactobacillus Acidophilis, Bifidobacterium Longum, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Lactobacillus Salivarius, Enterococcus Faecium, Vitamin A, D3, E, B12 Supplements, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Zinc Oxide, Iron Carbonate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate, Sorbic Acid, Sodium Selenite.

And what I said previously was all dogs points, even cats point, and the scientists at UC Davis have been unable to locate the pointing gene(s).

If Pro Plan is so inferior, I would expect those feeding something else are dominating field trials. Could I please have the registered name of your dog with the most wins? That is the real world proof.

[bwire]

Reading all of this has given me a headache. I feed PPP to my 3 vizslas and they have always done well on it. After reading some other posts and articles about dog food, I have decided to keep feeding it to my dogs. And I'll stick to Mountain Dew and Kit Kats for myself when I need something to eat while hunting. I shutter to think what those ingredients include!

[Neil]

Reading all of this has given me a headache. I feed PPP to my 3 vizslas and they have always done well on it. After reading some other posts and articles about dog food, I have decided to keep feeding it to my dogs. And I'll stick to Mountain Dew and Kit Kats for myself when I need something to eat while hunting. I shutter to think what those ingredients include!

We really need a like button. +1

[Neil]

About the poodles in the Iditarod, I love revisionist history.

There are vet operated check stations along the route, they would not have to ban non-Alaskan dogs, they would just pull them at great expense to the mushers. An untrimed standard poodle is wooly, offering good protection from the cold. They carry straw and blankets. Back in the 60's Bob Wehle of Elhew fame did well in some of the small NY races, particularly in deep snow. A 70 pound pointer has much longer legs than a 50 lb Alaska sled dog. A lady ran with some Irish setters, then they started cross breeding. The officials decided they did not want a bunch of greyhound looking dogs filmed, the race has a long history and tradition to protect. I agree.

My comment about corn and Redpaw came from memory of a dinner conversation with King in the 1990's, turns out it is still true for 32K. The only reason I mentioned Redpaw is they are not on the list either.

I fully realize there are some other good feeds out there, they are just not enough better than PPP to give a competitive advantage. And the list in the OP is bunk.

[Dakotazeb]

Reading all of this has given me a headache. I feed PPP to my 3 vizslas and they have always done well on it. After reading some other posts and articles about dog food, I have decided to keep feeding it to my dogs. And I'll stick to Mountain Dew and Kit Kats for myself when I need something to eat while hunting. I shutter to think what those ingredients include!

I agree. Enough is enough. Not sure what some of the guys on this thread are trying to prove. Feed what you want to and what works best for your dogs. These dog food posts always seem to get carried away. I think it's time for a moderator to shut this thread down.

[kninebirddog]

The horse has been beat to death and stinks