Gun Dog Forum

Hey guys/girls. My GSP is now 20 months old. For the last 8 months I've been hiking her every day. I travel about 3-4 miles, which means she's been running 5-8 miles everyday since she's off lead. So for 8 months she's been consistently getting 35-56 miles per week of running without any injuries or sign of slowing down. The vet says she looks great.

My question is this. Lately, I've been mountain biking with her. My weekly schedule looks like this...

M - Mountain Bike 12 miles/90 minutes... she's running pretty steady the whole time to keep up.
T - 5ish Mile Hike slower pace.
W - Mountain Bike 12 miles/90 minutes.
Th - 5ish Mile Hike slower pace.
F - Mountain Bike 12 miles/90 minutes
Sat - 5ish Mile Hike slower pace.
Sun - 5ish Mile Hike slower pace.

That's getting her 50-60 miles per week. My worry is that the increased distance and pace of the Mountain biking is too much. Is this okay for a GSP? How many miles are you guys running your dogs?

How will I know if too much is too much? She's a really driven dog so I'm worried that even if she is hurting, she'll keep going.

Thanks!

It's my understanding that the same muscles should not be worked every day. Athletes rest a muscle group and use another form of exercise every other day. My dogs run many miles every OTHER day. I think your schedule is too much . jmo

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=49312

On the days of the slower pace hike, I would get a good reading horness and add resistance training, and would add some free swimming. If kept hydrated, I have never known a dog to harm themselves.

My conditioning schedule is as follows:

3 - 4 times a week we road from a UTV, working up to an hour, at alternating speeds, from very slow with them pulling hard to a trot to a 12 mph lope, and speeds between.

Alternate days we free run or free swim, some days both, up to an hour.

6 weeks in June/July are vacation, with a couple - 3 short swims a week.

I have a 15 year old Field Champion that is still in excellent shape, that followed that schedule from two years old until 11. Now he just plays for 30 minutes a day.

I am not a fan of hiking or biking, but it is better than him laying up.

I think working her every day like you are is not a good idea. Sometimes rest is just as important as the exercise to let muscles heal and recuperate. Your schedule of 7 days a week is much more than needed. I know when I was younger and still running competitively that I needed days off from training. I would guess it's much that same for a dog. To maintain fitness of my Brittany I run her with my bike 3 days a week. We cover 6.5 miles in approx 30 minutes. During the first 2 miles of the run I let her pull me for strength conditioning. Off days I try to get her some free running in the field and some swimming. Not only does your dog need a break from conditioning, so do you. Seven days a week is excessive and you will eventually pay for it. Give your body a rest, your dog's too.

Human and knine physiology are not remotely similar. They are not little people in fur coats. They are resting and recuperating for the 23 hours between exercises, it is how they are built.

What type of surface? All this may show up later in life...

Neil wrote:Human and knine physiology are not remotely similar. They are not little people in fur coats. They are resting and recuperating for the 23 hours between exercises, it is how they are built.

I was running my lab X GWP and my GSP about 12-14 miles along county roads while I was on a mountain bike every other day. I had worked up to that distance and they would usually run in the grass next to the road. Neither dog showed any problems. Whenever we crossed an irrigation canal they would jump in to stay cool

If you've worked up the mileage and pace in a reason manner and your dog's build is sound, it is pretty tough to break these dogs.

My schedule looks similar to your's and they actually get additional work in the morning.

Rest and days off are for injuries. After an abnormally strenuous workout, I'll just free run the next day just to get the blood moving through the muscles.

If the OP were mountain biking every day for 90 minutes with the dog running, that might be getting to be enough running exercise.

Dogs, especially dogs like GSP's are bred and built to run for hours on end, day after day, with no difficulty.

The runs with the dog while hiking are essentially a light recovery type workout for the dog, a non-event, IMO. A dog like a GSP can do 8-10 mph for six to eight hours a day, every single day, if it is in condition.

If the OP were doing slow roading against resistance instead of the mountain biking, that would probably be too much of that type exercise. I have done slow roading against resistance three times a week for an hour and that really builds up the dog's back end and increases sprint speed, duration and tolerance to heat. That is useful for field trials, especially early ones in the hot weather, but might not be what the OP needs in a dog.

RayG

Neil wrote:Human and knine physiology are not remotely similar. They are not little people in fur coats. They are resting and recuperating for the 23 hours between exercises, it is how they are built.

Neil knows MUCH more than I , Interestingly though , at the Calgary Stampede , the Range Derby horses are required to rest one full 24 hour period if they have raced 2 days in a row and 2 full days of rest if they have raced 3 days in a row.
Yes I know a horse is not a dog, and not big people in leather , but I found that rule interesting.

Dogs, horses, people, and other warm blooded animals are all different but that has little to do with how muscles work, rest, and grow but in each case they all are very similar no matter how they are dressed.

ezzy333 wrote:Dogs, horses, people, and other warm blooded animals are all different but that has little to do with how muscles work, rest, and grow but in each case they all are very similar no matter how they are dressed.

It hurts but I gotta agree with Ezzy. Recovery is VERY similar reguardless of species.

I thought he was saying the opposite.." all different but that has little to do with how muscles work, rest, and grow ." quote Ezzy

So you all really believe a slooth, gazelle, camel, whale, and cheetah all have the same basic musculature and physiology? I recommend you think before you post.

There are even huge differences among species; quarter horse vs Begian vs Arabian.

Animals have different muscles based on their function; some speed, some swimming, some endurance, some strength, etc.

So to say again, the endurance and strength training best for humans is not correct for dogs.

I looked up some GPS studies on wolf travel, most show 30 to 40 miles a night, and for no apparent reason over 100 occasionally. They do it night after night, no alternate days off, no vacations.

As Ray said you can break a dog down with resistance training, but I think it highly unlikely any of you with a family and a full time job are going to have the time and energy to harm a dog walking or biking.

Be sure to keep them hydrated, and as someone else mentioned pay attention to the surface, this time of year asphalt is dangerous, as are sharp rocks.

I'm sorry. I wasn't getting notified of the replies. I'm reading through everything now. I'll reply shortly.

Take care,

Runningdog wrote:What type of surface? All this may show up later in life...

We live in Las Vegas so it's all packed desert trails and loose gravel/rocks.

Thanks everyone! I'm getting two basic opinions. One says what I'm doing is fine and the other says she needs a little more recovery. Ideally I would swim her 3 times per week too but we live in Las Vegas and the nearest lake is about an hour away, so I don't swim with her very often.

The shorter days on my schedule are intended to be recovery days. I'm a triathlete so I'm very familiar with training load and the importance of recovery. I think what I may do is cut the mileage of the recovery days a little bit. Perhaps we'll only do 2-3 miles instead.

I try to do something with her everyday because she's bouncing off of the walls if not. Even on our 12 mile days, she'll often bring me a bumper or a tennis ball as soon as we get home!

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Canadian wrote:Thanks everyone! I'm getting two basic opinions. One says what I'm doing is fine and the other says she needs a little more recovery. Ideally I would swim her 3 times per week too but we live in Las Vegas and the nearest lake is about an hour away, so I don't swim with her very often.

The shorter days on my schedule are intended to be recovery days. I'm a triathlete so I'm very familiar with training load and the importance of recovery. I think what I may do is cut the mileage of the recovery days a little bit. Perhaps we'll only do 2-3 miles instead.

I try to do something with her everyday because she's bouncing off of the walls if not. Even on our 12 mile days, she'll often bring me a bumper or a tennis ball as soon as we get home!

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Well there you go! You already know more than us . That dog is lucky to have you ; gun dogs do needs lots of exercise.

Sharon wrote:

Canadian wrote:Thanks everyone! I'm getting two basic opinions. One says what I'm doing is fine and the other says she needs a little more recovery. Ideally I would swim her 3 times per week too but we live in Las Vegas and the nearest lake is about an hour away, so I don't swim with her very often.

The shorter days on my schedule are intended to be recovery days. I'm a triathlete so I'm very familiar with training load and the importance of recovery. I think what I may do is cut the mileage of the recovery days a little bit. Perhaps we'll only do 2-3 miles instead.

I try to do something with her everyday because she's bouncing off of the walls if not. Even on our 12 mile days, she'll often bring me a bumper or a tennis ball as soon as we get home!

Thanks again for all of the advice.

Well there you go! You already know more than us . That dog is lucky to have you ; gun dogs do needs lots of exercise.

Haha! Thank you. I think I'm the one who's lucky to have her. They truly are man's best friend.

Canadian -

I know you probably know this, but since you mentioned Las Vegas,I have to mention HYDRATION, HYDRATION, HYDRATION.

Always carry plenty of water with you...enough to wet the dog down competely if it needs it, with some left over for it to drink. In the kind of heat that can happen out there, I should think a gallon of water would not be too much to have on a 90 minute run.

RayG

I think your Gsp will probably laugh at your schedule and ask when he can do more. Your dog will let you know if it's too much. Sounds like it's mostly free running and it's hard to overdo that.

Sharon wrote:

Neil wrote:Human and knine physiology are not remotely similar. They are not little people in fur coats. They are resting and recuperating for the 23 hours between exercises, it is how they are built.

Neil knows MUCH more than I , Interestingly though , at the Calgary Stampede , the Range Derby horses are required to rest one full 24 hour period if they have raced 2 days in a row and 2 full days of rest if they have raced 3 days in a row.
Yes I know a horse is not a dog, and not big people in leather , but I found that rule interesting.

That rule was made to appease people (Vancouver Humane Society and other annoying "do-gooders".) It has nothing to do with the requirements of the horses.

slistoe wrote:

Sharon wrote:

Neil wrote:Human and knine physiology are not remotely similar. They are not little people in fur coats. They are resting and recuperating for the 23 hours between exercises, it is how they are built.

Neil knows MUCH more than I , Interestingly though , at the Calgary Stampede , the Range Derby horses are required to rest one full 24 hour period if they have raced 2 days in a row and 2 full days of rest if they have raced 3 days in a row.
Yes I know a horse is not a dog, and not big people in leather , but I found that rule interesting.

That rule was made to appease people (Vancouver Humane Society and other annoying "do-gooders".) It has nothing to do with the requirements of the horses.

That seems to be pretty much the schedule that every race horse trainer follows and also human trainers. And I might add pigeon flyers. You might just call it common sense when dealing with living creatures.

Ezzy

I once hunted a 4 dog string 19 consecutive days, and the only problem I experienced is they got too tired to eat. That season, I started in Iowa in October and ended in South Texas in February, the only rest we got was travel and scouting days. I wore out two pair of boots and lost 15 pounds.

Neil wrote:I once hunted a 4 dog string 19 consecutive days, and the only problem I experienced is they got too tired to eat. That season, I started in Iowa in October and ended in South Texas in February, the only rest we got was travel and scouting days. I wore out two pair of boots and lost 15 pounds.

No one said it couldn't be done. Just that anyone with any common sense wouldn't. Now what does theis do for the OP who just asked about exercise mileage?

ezzy333 wrote:

Neil wrote:I once hunted a 4 dog string 19 consecutive days, and the only problem I experienced is they got too tired to eat. That season, I started in Iowa in October and ended in South Texas in February, the only rest we got was travel and scouting days. I wore out two pair of boots and lost 15 pounds.

No one said it couldn't be done. Just that anyone with any common sense wouldn't. Now what does theis do for the OP who just asked about exercise mileage?

If you are going to hunt like that, you better have an excellent pre-season conditioning program.

Neil wrote:So you all really believe a slooth, gazelle, camel, whale, and cheetah all have the same basic musculature and physiology? I recommend you think before you post.

There are even huge differences among species; quarter horse vs Begian vs Arabian.

Animals have different muscles based on their function; some speed, some swimming, some endurance, some strength, etc.

So to say again, the endurance and strength training best for humans is not correct for dogs.

See Neil, I knew that we could find something that we agree upon.

Even amongst dogs, the distribution of type 1, type 2a and type 2x fibers is different between species.

Although most would consider there to be 2 camps, identified by their two extreme species, the sled dog camp (upland dogs) and the greyhound camp (retrievers). Interestingly enough, each camp shows maximum performance on different food compositions with the former thriving on high protein high fat low carb (low gi) and the later thriving on lower protein high fat high carb.

pato y codoniz wrote:

Neil wrote:So you all really believe a slooth, gazelle, camel, whale, and cheetah all have the same basic musculature and physiology? I recommend you think before you post.

There are even huge differences among species; quarter horse vs Begian vs Arabian.

Animals have different muscles based on their function; some speed, some swimming, some endurance, some strength, etc.

So to say again, the endurance and strength training best for humans is not correct for dogs.

See Neil, I knew that we could find something that we agree upon.

Even amongst dogs, the distribution of type 1, type 2a and type 2x fibers is different between species.

Although most would consider there to be 2 camps, identified by their two extreme species, the sled dog camp (upland dogs) and the greyhound camp (retrievers). Interestingly enough, each camp shows maximum performance on different food compositions with the former thriving on high protein high fat low carb (low gi) and the later thriving on lower protein high fat high carb.

I suspect, when it comes to fact, and not opinion, there is much we agree upon.

Neil wrote:On the days of the slower pace hike, I would get a good reading horness and add resistance training, and would add some free swimming. If kept hydrated, I have never known a dog to harm themselves.

My conditioning schedule is as follows:

3 - 4 times a week we road from a UTV, working up to an hour, at alternating speeds, from very slow with them pulling hard to a trot to a 12 mph lope, and speeds between.

Alternate days we free run or free swim, some days both, up to an hour.

6 weeks in June/July are vacation, with a couple - 3 short swims a week.

I have a 15 year old Field Champion that is still in excellent shape, that followed that schedule from two years old until 11. Now he just plays for 30 minutes a day.

I am not a fan of hiking or biking, but it is better than him laying up.

I believe that strength, endurance, and speed are entirely different endeavors that need to be trained in separate cycles or phases because one is the foundation for the other and they require different nutrition to maximize gains but to each their own.




.

I agree, but would add flexibility, balance, mental accurity, and attitude; conditioning contributes to all of these.

RayGubernat wrote:Canadian -

I know you probably know this, but since you mentioned Las Vegas,I have to mention HYDRATION, HYDRATION, HYDRATION.

Always carry plenty of water with you...enough to wet the dog down competely if it needs it, with some left over for it to drink. In the kind of heat that can happen out there, I should think a gallon of water would not be too much to have on a 90 minute run.

RayG

I'm very careful with the heat for sure! We typically start between 5:30 and 6:00 in the morning, and I carry plenty of hydration with water stops every 15-30 minutes. I get her to the point where she won't take anymore. I've also wet her down to keep her cool. If we go out later in the day (for a quick retrieve) I wet her with the hose first to keep her cool. The heat here certainly is a kicker!

pato y codoniz wrote:

Neil wrote:On the days of the slower pace hike, I would get a good reading horness and add resistance training, and would add some free swimming. If kept hydrated, I have never known a dog to harm themselves.

My conditioning schedule is as follows:

3 - 4 times a week we road from a UTV, working up to an hour, at alternating speeds, from very slow with them pulling hard to a trot to a 12 mph lope, and speeds between.

Alternate days we free run or free swim, some days both, up to an hour.

6 weeks in June/July are vacation, with a couple - 3 short swims a week.

I have a 15 year old Field Champion that is still in excellent shape, that followed that schedule from two years old until 11. Now he just plays for 30 minutes a day.

I am not a fan of hiking or biking, but it is better than him laying up.

I believe that strength, endurance, and speed are entirely different endeavors that need to be trained in separate cycles or phases because one is the foundation for the other and they require different nutrition to maximize gains but to each their own.

.

I have found that slow roading against resistance does a number of things simultaneously. It builds rear end musculature in a dog which translates directly to sprint speed. Slow roading against resistance, also contributes to endurance, especially when it is done in the heat, and when water is offered at gradually increasing intervals. If a dog can pull against a horse continuously for 45 minutes in harness...it is going to be able to FLY, not run...but FLY... for an hour in front of a horse and have something left over.

If the roading is done in 80-85 degree heat, or higher and the time is gradually increased, the dog's heat tolerance and endurance will be slowly, but surely incrementally improved.

Of course, one should also free run the dog as an alternate to slow roading, to stretch out those running muscles. It is often useful to slow road the dog, give a water break and then finish the workout by running the dog. That allows the muscles to fully extend and stretch out, minimizing cramping and such.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:

pato y codoniz wrote:
I believe that strength, endurance, and speed are entirely different endeavors that need to be trained in separate cycles or phases because one is the foundation for the other and they require different nutrition to maximize gains but to each their own.

.

I have found that slow roading against resistance does a number of things simultaneously. It builds rear end musculature in a dog which translates directly to sprint speed. Slow roading against resistance, also contributes to endurance, especially when it is done in the heat, and when water is offered at gradually increasing intervals. If a dog can pull against a horse continuously for 45 minutes in harness...it is going to be able to FLY, not run...but FLY... for an hour in front of a horse and have something left over.

If the roading is done in 80-85 degree heat, or higher and the time is gradually increased, the dog's heat tolerance and endurance will be slowly, but surely incrementally improved.

Of course, one should also free run the dog as an alternate to slow roading, to stretch out those running muscles. It is often useful to slow road the dog, give a water break and then finish the workout by running the dog. That allows the muscles to fully extend and stretch out, minimizing cramping and such.

RayG

I'm not opposed to slow roading resistance training.

In fact, I consider it to be the foundational exercise that develops the muscles and strength upon which conditioning and speed are later built.

Now don't get me wrong, slow roading resistance training will also improve speed and conditioning but it is like washing the car on the driveway. Yes, the runoff water will clean some of the driveway and water some of the grass but it didn't completely clean the driveway or water all the grass.

The other reason why I believe that slow roading resistance training should be viewed as solely a strength exercise is reinforce the idea that the dog should be fed a calorie surplus. It is not only ok for the the dog to gain some fat during this phase but desired because a calorie deficit is counter productive to muscle growth and muscle recovery.

Speaking of increasing the efficiency, you have to know your dog's top speed and remeasure it so you can adjust training speeds. While I train the dog every other day, the off day is a free run. I'll use baited water and soaked food. After the training for the day is complete, I'll let the dog free run a little bit and take a dip into the stream. During the strength phase, I'll feed a high protein high fat food low carb low gi food twice a day with the kids feeding a fat treat (a 1oz cube of frozen mixed fats that are rolled in ground kibble) when they get home from school.

After about 3 to 3.5 months of slow roading resistance training, I'll transition to a conditioning exercise for about 2 months. Feed a estimated calorie neutral portion, for the target weight, of the same food as during the muscle building phase. The dog loses the excess weight from the previous phase in 2 weeks.

After we're done with conditioning, I'll transition to a speed exercise and a lower protein high fat high carb food (with high, medium and low gi carbs. I like supplementing with fruit.). Since every time this exercise is done we're operating at a minimum of 80% up to 100% of top speed, I really make sure to warm the dog up well and watch the dog closely for signs of injury.

Did a horse of a dk this winter and spring, with huge gains, and next winter I'll start the 2 ft youngsters on the program and i'll do the dk again.

That all sounds rather complicated to me. I don't get that analytical about it.

I don't mess with my dogs' food. They are on self feeders that are filled with a 30/20 feed....year 'round. Currently I am using a Sunshine Mills product. They eat what they need and most of the time they are in pretty good condition, with just a hint of rib.

I work up to 45 minutes of steady pulling at a flat walk, which is about 4-6 MPH with my horses. I will do it in the hotter portions of the day once the dog has built up to the time. I feel that working in the heat increases heat tolerance and overall endurance. Of course I mix in free running to stretch those muscles out and keep them limber.

I honestly do not think a dog needs more than 45minutes of solid pulling to be able to run an hour horseback stake competitively, at least my pointers have not. if I want to be sure they finish just as strong as they started, I will work up to about 60 minutes of pulling, but that is all.

If I free run a dog, it is usually for something well in excess of an hour. I will hit the whistle and push them with the horse if they start to slow down and I always try to finish the session by pushing them with the horse, again because I want the dog to run hard from start to finish at a trial and if you give the dog short workouts as a rule during training, or allow them to dictate a slower pace, they may decide they are done early in a trial...and that ain't gonna work.

RayG

Anyone that wants to have a dog in shape to hunt long and hard on consecutive days would be well advised to follow the advice Ray has given. It's simple and it works. Your dog will run circles around the other folks "conditioned" dogs in the hunting field - every day, all the time. Been there, done that.
For the OP, just run your dog. It really doesn't matter who you are or what kind of condition you are in, if you are on foot you will not be overworking your dog. As for the mountain biking part - if you are worried that the dog is not getting enough exercise you can hook chains/drag weights to her to up the level Seriously, when I was conditioning 40 lb Brittanys to run in competitive FT they would free run 10 miles in 35 minutes pulling 10 to 15 lbs of chain in front of my truck 3 days a week. On their "off" days they were in harness pulling the quad (my mechanical horse).

I guess that I'm just glad that I live on a lake and can have mine drag my kayak around when its !00dg with 80 percent humidity In East TX during the summer and free run on other days. When things cool off, we will drag chains and free run but they all do better with days "off" though.

I think the swimming does more than the chains though.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I guess that I'm just glad that I live on a lake and can have mine drag my kayak around when its !00dg with 80 percent humidity In East TX during the summer and free run on other days. When things cool off, we will drag chains and free run but they all do better with days "off" though.

I think the swimming does more than the chains though.

I wish I had a safe place to swim my dogs for extended periods. There is no exercise medium that is more gentle on the body, while still building strength and endurance. Virtually no chance of impact type injuries, since the feet never touch the ground. If a dog is in water, even reasonably warm water, the risk of heat related injury is also virtually nil.

RayG