Drive vs Cooperation

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:22 pm

I was reading a training book and the author was talking about picking a dog with balanced amounts of drive and cooperation. I guess I figured he meant moderate amounts of both for the foothunter. In the different venues what is needed to make a dog successful. And is drive and cooperation nurture or nature or a combination of both. I'm fairly soft on my dogs especially when young. It seems like that produces a softer dog with a lot of drive and cooperation that starts kicking in by two or three. Not sure if it's the way I raise them and train or the type of dog that I pick and like. Do you like to use pressure to force cooperation or do you calmly work into more cooperation or do you buy into a line that it comes natural too. How does each technique effect drive. Can huge amounts of drive overpower cooperation and natural instincts.

Thanks
Greg
Ya I know way to many questions but I'm thinking all one related subject.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:53 pm

These are not diametrically opposed traits. The more drive a dog has, the more cooperation it needs to be useful. It is easier for most folks to get a dog with lesser drive as this masks a lack of cooperation.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:55 pm

About the nature vs. nurture part - you can't nurture something that does not exist.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:23 am

I think part of this question is what I consider a misnomer. I don't know exactly when or why we started calling desire prey drive, but I still think desire is the correct term as it indicates something a dog is born with but can also be manipulated by experience and is not always associated with prey. We have done this with several terms I grew up with such as shave instead of clip. Bad thing is that sometimes it makes it harder to understand what everyone is talking about and also harder to understand.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:27 am

Ezzy -

I guess that is part of any living language. it changes, it morphs.

I can actually remember when the word "gay" meant happy, carefree, etc. I can also remember when black was a color on the paint chart and to "AX' something was to cut it down with an edged implement. At one time if you used the term "bird dog" you were referring to either a pointer or setter of the English persuasion and no other breed.

Some terms simply fall out of favor. A dog that would hold point until the bird flushed and then chase used to be called "staunch". If I use the term today. often as not I get a blank stare. When I was growing up, a Rip Rap was a black and white pointer.

But I digress.

To me drive and desire are one and the same thing...in a bird dog. I want as much of that as I can get in a bird dog because, even though it can be difficult to manage, I have found that if you have a bird dog with an unquenchable, insatiable desire to find birds, there is very, very little you cannot get that kind of dog to do when it realizes the reward for compliance is to be able to hunt and to wrap its gums around a bird while the punishment for non -compliance is "No Joy".

RayG

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:25 am

RayGubernat wrote: A dog that would hold point until the bird flushed and then chase used to be called "staunch". If I use the term today. often as not I get a blank stare.

RayG

Still called staunch here. A very well understood and defined term in bird dogs.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:34 am

ezzy333 wrote:I think part of this question is what I consider a misnomer. I don't know exactly when or why we started calling desire prey drive, but I still think desire is the correct term as it indicates something a dog is born with but can also be manipulated by experience and is not always associated with prey. We have done this with several terms I grew up with such as shave instead of clip. Bad thing is that sometimes it makes it harder to understand what everyone is talking about and also harder to understand.

I didn't see the term "prey drive" in the OP.

I like the term "drive" myself. The dog that contains so much internal desire to hunt that it displays as "driven" to hunt. Has nothing to do with the direct pursuit of visible prey.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:38 am

slistoe wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: A dog that would hold point until the bird flushed and then chase used to be called "staunch". If I use the term today. often as not I get a blank stare.

RayG
Still called staunch here. A very well understood and defined term in bird dogs.

"Staunch, but not broke" maybe ??

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I think the proliferation of the term "desire", is a direct result of "desire" being a scoring category in NAVHDA tests.
Now some folks may feel/use "desire" & "prey drive" interchangeably- some may not.

I think one needs to qualify "desire" as in, desire to do what? To please? To retrieve? To flush? To seek/point game?
Same goes for "prey drive"....... but more in regards to scope: Prey drive for a retriever to get to a 300 yard mark? Prey drive for
a coursing hound to run down it's quarry? Prey drive for a flusher to produce a flying bird for the gun? Prey drive for a pointer to seek and point game?

When it comes to prey drive with pointing breeds, I will only offer this:

It is much easier to take prey drive out of a dog that has alot of it and shorten them up, than it is to attempt to put prey drive into a dog that doesn't have much of it and turn them into a 400-600 yard dog.

In other words, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken $h!t.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:09 am

The problem with communication is too often the focus is on the delivery as opposed to the reception; whether that may be a gun dog forum or directly to a gun dog. I want as much prey drive, drive or desire as I can get. I do not mind saying that my primary focus in breeding and acquiring dogs is their desire to hunt and be predators. In 0 cases that I have experienced and darned few that I have heard from those that I accept as credible; are dogs so independent of humans that they cannot be trained. Biddability and cooperation are far more subjective metrics than drive... a dog raised by someone who is educated, consistent, understands sporting dog behavior and provides the right environment may be an exceptional example of a breed when in the hands of another it could be disaster.

We have heard the argument; "you can pull them in, you can't push them out" It is true, if the dog trusts you and you have been consistent. In example, I don't attempt to break dogs running on a limb find half a mile out while I am on horseback. In fact, when I decide a pup is ready to break, they don't see any of that for awhile. It's usually three months of summer in an irrigated pasture while I walk around on foot. Without going into details of methods and progression, I do this for control of the training environment and to allow trust to build between us regarding birds and what our role is with them. when we have reached agreement, I starting granting back their independence in measures that they are mature enough for until we reach our collective potential, and then experience and genetics do the rest.

If we assume that the dog has described becomes a competitive AA horseback dog that the casual observer would consider too much for their application it is easy to show what training has done for their biddability. These dogs know what it is like to work a 40 acre field, they spent a lot of formative time there. If I am walking with a long gun, it may take a moment or two of hacking but their training kicks in and they adjust to our collective opportunities and what the situation warrants. Their desire puts them in the mode of wanting birds, their trust and experiences puts them in the frame of mind to allow me in helping with analysis of the opportunity and they respond accordingly. It is all simple but time consuming, and the final result is measured in years, not weeks, not all humans have the patience or desire.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:36 am

GrayDawg wrote:
slistoe wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: A dog that would hold point until the bird flushed and then chase used to be called "staunch". If I use the term today. often as not I get a blank stare.

RayG
Still called staunch here. A very well understood and defined term in bird dogs.
"Staunch, but not broke" maybe ??

You are correct. Staunch is not broke.

randomnut · Post by **randomnut** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:09 pm

I've got a 6 month old pup now, and my first real hunting dog. My experience is only with this dog, so no expertise here, just what I've seen.

I wanted a male, and after visiting the breeder and seeing the pups, I picked the dog that wanted to get away from the others and venture alone, smelling and playing in everything he got into.

Fast forward 6 months. I took advice I had read on here. I've pretty much let my pup be a pup. He has ridden everywhere I go, has run free in the fields and woods I frequent, and swims with my family in the local creek every day. I have worked with him on birds, rabbits, ducks, blood tracks, and animal drags. I have taught him sit, no, and come, and he does them when something else doesn't have his interest.

We had a training day Saturday. I was able to see several of his litter mates there. All of the other pups owners had worked a lot more on obedience than I. All were wearing ecollars, and were much easier for their owners to handle than mine. I was really impressed at how well they acted, and the owners obviously had worked them a lot.

When working in the fields, water, and woods though, none were comparable to my pup. It was clear to see he had more drive, more hunt, more desire, whatever you want to call it. It was also apparent that his level of exercise and conditioning to heat helped keep him from tiring.

It is definitely time for me to start getting a handle on him, and I feel I am behind in that area. But, I honestly feel my dogs exposure to hunting areas, animals, water, and all other experiences' he has had is what has given him that desire and confidence he has. I think his littermates would be similar if they had the same exposure.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:25 pm

E-collars used on pups less than 6 months old for obedience training.......no wonder yours had more drive, he was still a puppy!!! It's very easy to take it out of a puppy so young. I would say it's not a good comparison, but I commend you for not pressuring the dog at such a young age. It's common practice nowadays!

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:38 pm

randomnut wrote:I've got a 6 month old pup now, and my first real hunting dog. My experience is only with this dog, so no expertise here, just what I've seen.

I wanted a male, and after visiting the breeder and seeing the pups, I picked the dog that wanted to get away from the others and venture alone, smelling and playing in everything he got into.

Fast forward 6 months. I took advice I had read on here. I've pretty much let my pup be a pup. He has ridden everywhere I go, has run free in the fields and woods I frequent, and swims with my family in the local creek every day. I have worked with him on birds, rabbits, ducks, blood tracks, and animal drags. I have taught him sit, no, and come, and he does them when something else doesn't have his interest.

We had a training day Saturday. I was able to see several of his litter mates there. All of the other pups owners had worked a lot more on obedience than I. All were wearing ecollars, and were much easier for their owners to handle than mine. I was really impressed at how well they acted, and the owners obviously had worked them a lot.

[b]When working in the fields, water, and woods though, none were comparable to my pup. It was clear to see he had more drive, more hunt, more desire, whatever you want to call it. It was also apparent that his level of exercise and conditioning to heat helped keep him from tiring[/b].

It is definitely time for me to start getting a handle on him, and I feel I am behind in that area. But, I honestly feel my dogs exposure to hunting areas, animals, water, and all other experiences' he has had is what has given him that desire and confidence he has. I think his littermates would be similar if they had the same exposure.

Isn't that interesting. Good for you on doing it right.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:08 am

My dog is out of several (HOF) lines. She would go out seeking objectives 1/2 mile at 16 weeks old. That is drive and self confidence. She has been a hand full to train. We have our ups and downs but at 22mos old she is almost perfect. Today she found quail about 1/4 mile out in heavy cover. She came back out of the cover where she could see me, gave me a heads up and went back into the cover to point. Brains, drive and desire to please. She knows she needs me to get the birds in her mouth. Her breeding is the basis of it all.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:45 am

Gundog terminology does change and I often get a bit confused as to what is meant . I learned mainly from spaniel trailers to call "Drive" ....."Go !" For "cooperation" I got used to saying "willing to please." I began to use those terms a long time ago and I still use them. I have to do a sort of quick mental translation when among people who talk of Prey Drive or even Cooperation.

A "soft" sort of dog with a lot of "Go!" that is also willing to please is what I like but don't often get !

Bill T.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:13 am

Trekmoor wrote:Gundog terminology does change and I often get a bit confused as to what is meant . I learned mainly from spaniel trailers to call "Drive" ....."Go !" For "cooperation" I got used to saying "willing to please." I began to use those terms a long time ago and I still use them. I have to do a sort of quick mental translation when among people who talk of Prey Drive or even Cooperation.

A "soft" sort of dog with a lot of "Go!" that is also willing to please is what I like but don't often get !

Bill T.

Amen

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:24 pm

These are not diametrically opposed traits.

Yes I suppose that's right, but often it seem that huge amounts of drive, when out in the field, will start overriding the pointing and retrieving instincts and the come with. At 4 months the pointing and retrieving are strong driven by instinct. A year later the drive has gotten so strong that the point, retrieve, and come with start suffering.
The topic about sire not pointing, and I have no idea about the dogs that were being talked about, started me wondering about the subject in general.
Started wondering if drive could become so strong that it covers up instincts that you know were there when they were young.
I guess I consider coming with, retrieving, pointing, all part of cooperation.
I think that the definition of drive and cooperation are generally the same to many people. I think how people rate the amount of each in a dog has drastic swings with the people according to what they consider acceptable.
I've seen all this in my last pup and am training through it, but for the normal person these are not fun to overcome. Trying to return the cooperation that is there somewhere without removing any of the drive. It's a real balancing act. They can be the best or the worst dog you have ever had.

Greg

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:40 pm

I think that drive and raging aggression affect a dog in the same way. They create tunnel vision and all else is blocked out. With rage they can't see or hear anything but get that dog or person. With extreme drive they can't see or hear anything but get that bird then find another.

Greg

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:23 pm

Well, if that is your best comparison you should avoid dogs with drive i'd think.

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:29 pm

I can't. I'm addicted.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:54 pm

greg jacobs wrote:These are not diametrically opposed traits.

Yes I suppose that's right, but often it seem that huge amounts of drive, when out in the field, will start overriding the pointing and retrieving instincts and the come with. At 4 months the pointing and retrieving are strong driven by instinct. A year later the drive has gotten so strong that the point, retrieve, and come with start suffering.
The topic about sire not pointing, and I have no idea about the dogs that were being talked about, started me wondering about the subject in general.
Started wondering if drive could become so strong that it covers up instincts that you know were there when they were young.

I have always said that if I saw the pup scent point birds at 12 weeks then I know he will point birds at 2 years of age. In between those two there are a whole bunch of things the dog will be learning and very few of them have to do with actually pointing. Nurturing drive is one of them.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:36 pm

Would "nurturing drive" include keeping "cooperation" in tact? I think it should.

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:56 pm

rsz_img_20131012_081426.jpg

Under 4 months
I think your always working at that through those months

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:59 pm

rsz_20150119_125059-1-2-1.jpg

1 1/2 years. But she really tested me between the two pictures

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:23 pm

IMG950146_zpseeb26ad3.JPG

Three months
This one is a little more easy going

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:31 am

With my first shorthair I had a group of people who took me into the gundog world. More force was used on my first shorthair as I look back then I used with my current shorthair. The reason more force was used as i look back was the way they trained. A group of guys who had dogs for 40,50,60 yrs. My current was brought from puppy to (what I call finish

) in the same amount of time as my first . Under A more calm atmosphere .Just me as trainer. Plus living where we hunt his entire life.
I think you can have it all. I have heard a saying on here many times " this is the best dog I have ever had" for me I can't say one was better then another when it comes to hunting. One trained hard and one trained under a more calm atmosphere.
Same end result.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:42 am

SCT wrote:Would "nurturing drive" include keeping "cooperation" in tact? I think it should.

In my beginning post - the more drive you have, the more cooperation you need for the dog to be useful.
IME it seems most people's idea of nurturing cooperation is diminishing drive.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:08 am

slistoe wrote:
SCT wrote:Would "nurturing drive" include keeping "cooperation" in tact? I think it should.
In my beginning post - the more drive you have, the more cooperation you need for the dog to be useful.
IME it seems most people's idea of nurturing cooperation is diminishing drive.

I agree with your experience! My goal in breeding pointers is to naturally have both! Unrelenting drive and bottom, along with good "come back" or whatever you want to call it! Having started with dogs that have more drive than come back, my very limited experience so far is, the pups with more come back than their mother, take a little longer to find that independent drive. But, they do develop that drive, just takes until they are one year old rather than 6 months old, like their mother! Hopefully, the outcome is a dog with tremendous drive, but listens and checks in well. So far I don't have enough samples yet, and will know more in a year or two, but I see it happening!

At first I didn't like the slower progress of drive, but now that I've seen it come, I'm going to keep working to that end.

j.digiacomo · Post by **j.digiacomo** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:11 pm

Straight out of the NAVHDA green book:

Desire to Work
The desire to work is the hallmark of a good versatile hunting dog, and this desire is expressed in every phase of work on land and water, from beginning to end. The dog must demonstrate that it wants to find game and is willing to work hard to that end. Desire, or lack thereof, provides a clear index of the dog’s character and usefulness. A dog with proper desire will manifest it as an attitude, a force, a compulsion as it were, and the dog’s work will reflect determination and a strong sense of purpose. Aimless running must not be confused with desire, nor should speed alone be equated with desire. Dogs that go to heel after running for a short time and have to be coaxed repeatedly to continue their work must be scored very low.

Cooperation
Cooperation can be defined as an inherent willingness on the part of the dog to apply its own initiative and special talents while working with the handler in pursuit of a common goal, producing game. When both handler and dog know their tasks, cooperation is an invisible bond cemented with mutual knowledge and trust. Over-dependence on the handler must not be confused with cooperation. The cooperative dog is self assured, and its work displays a purpose. The intelligent cooperative dog seems to sense his handler’s wishes and movements. Even while on a solid point, the versatile dog may slowly turn his head to make sure the handler is moving up. A cooperative young dog will maintain contact with his handler. For example, when a young dog chases a bird and then returns of his own volition, he demonstrates cooperation. An older dog with more field experience on game should display a higher degree of cooperation than a young dog. For this reason, NAVHDA assigns an index number of 3 for cooperation in the Utility Test and an index number of 2 in the Natural Ability Test.

You can have a dog that doesn't give two ****s about working with you with all the drive and "go" in the world... and on the opposite end, you can have a boot licker that keeps tabs and minds you quite nicely that would never search far enough away from you to find a bird that didnt flush on its own.

There are extremes to either end, and being able to have BOTH is the key to having a reliable hunting companion. IMO desire to work is a trait that is BRED, whereas you can train and manipulate the cooperation - and each dog is different. IMO, I'd rather have too much drive/desire and fix the cooperation piece with training. I don't know if I would agree that a dog with more drive needs more cooperation; but possibly more reps/training to reinforce the good behaviors and set expectations.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:22 pm

Yes, a lack of cooperation can be masked with training to some extent. Depends on the level of drive and athleticism in the dog. If the dog has the physical ability and mental aptitude to carry it 600 plus yards in the search for game you are going to need something more than just training going for you.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:25 pm

slistoe wrote:Yes, a lack of cooperation can be masked with training to some extent. Depends on the level of drive and athleticism in the dog. If the dog has the physical ability and mental aptitude to carry it 600 plus yards in the search for game you are going to need something more than just training going for you.

True, and I KNOW that cooperation is BRED into the dog, whether someone else believes it or not. Seen it and can choose it in my breeding selection!

j.digiacomo · Post by **j.digiacomo** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:41 pm

slistoe wrote:If the dog has the physical ability and mental aptitude to carry it 600 plus yards in the search for game you are going to need something more than just training going for you.

exactly why i said both are needed... my point was, you cant put a 600+yd cast into a natural boot licker. but you can make a 600+yd dog more cooperative.

tobytx · Post by **tobytx** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:32 am

I think most people get confused about cooperation vs obedience.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:06 am

Great bunch of posts in this thread.

But I have not seen anybody mention the attributes of a truly class All-Age dog. They contain, quite simply, a very high amount of drive and a very high level of cooperation.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:34 am

dan v wrote:Great bunch of posts in this thread.

But I have not seen anybody mention the attributes of a truly class All-Age dog. They contain, quite simply, a very high amount of drive and a very high level of cooperation.

The most of both.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:53 pm

tobytx wrote:I think most people get confused about cooperation vs obedience.

+1

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:52 pm

Most people? I don't think so.

RockyDD · Post by **RockyDD** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:18 am

I think the most important thing is to get a dog with the amount of drive that matches your style of hunting. Don't buy any more than you need. It might be possible to train a 600 yard prairie burner to hunt woodcock in the Maine woods but who would want to. There you need a cautious, slow working, highly cooperative dog. I agree it is easier to train a high drive dog to be cooperative than to put more drive in a dog but there are limits to how much you can do without creating a bored and unhappy dog. Many claim that a high drive dog will adjust to cover but I have not seen that. It is more likely that high drive, big running FT type dog will be useless to the casual hunter with average training skills hunting fence rows and small woodlots.

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