Neutering question

Emaisch1080 · Post by **Emaisch1080** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:26 pm

Hi all. I have an 8 month old Brittany male. I was wondering on timing for neutering. I've heard and read a lot of different regarding drive, personality, and weight gain. Frankly I don't want him to change at all. I like everything about him. This will be his first hunting season. By the start of the season he would have had 8 weeks of professional gundog training. Not counting the stuff I do with him all the time. I was thinking after his first season. Thoughts?

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:53 pm

Wait till his body is fully mature. Most say between 2 -3 years

RickB · Post by **RickB** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:34 pm

He's your dog and you are free to do what you want...

However, can I ask a question: Why do you feel the need to neuter him at all? What issues are you trying to avoid or fix by neutering.

There are pros and cons to neutering, and those change based on the age...
A dog before 2 will grow abnormally and "tend" to have more joint problems. Not a guarantee, just a statistic.
There is a statistical correlation between neutering a dog and cancers of the urethra and bladder. On the other hand, a neutered dog cannot get testicular cancer. In intact dog has a chance of getting an enlarged prostate. The fix for this problem is a neuter.
An intact dog will be more prone to wander looking for a female. Neutering will help with this. So will a fence.

For me, I don't neuter a male. Just no real need. Now, when the dog gets a bit older, (starting at age 5), I am watching closely for signs of an enlarged prostate. First sign and he gets cut. Also, my husbandry is such that I can completely control his sexual access (or lack thereof). Dogs live inside, solid fences, near constant supervision, etc.

Emaisch1080 · Post by **Emaisch1080** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:47 pm

RickB wrote:He's your dog and you are free to do what you want...

However, can I ask a question: Why do you feel the need to neuter him at all? What issues are you trying to avoid or fix by neutering.

There are pros and cons to neutering, and those change based on the age...
A dog before 2 will grow abnormally and "tend" to have more joint problems. Not a guarantee, just a statistic.
There is a statistical correlation between neutering a dog and cancers of the urethra and bladder. On the other hand, a neutered dog cannot get testicular cancer. In intact dog has a chance of getting an enlarged prostate. The fix for this problem is a neuter.
An intact dog will be more prone to wander looking for a female. Neutering will help with this. So will a fence.

For me, I don't neuter a male. Just no real need. Now, when the dog gets a bit older, (starting at age 5), I am watching closely for signs of an enlarged prostate. First sign and he gets cut. Also, my husbandry is such that I can completely control his sexual access (or lack thereof). Dogs live inside, solid fences, near constant supervision, etc.

Well that clears it up. Lol. One of the big problems I have is when we go away no one will board him since he's not nurtured. And if they will he is by himself in a cage.

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:57 pm

I'm an anti-neuterer. Why on earth even consider neutering a male outside of some physical problem that makes it necessary. Behavioral problems are solved by training, not surgery. And the dog can't breed unwanted litters unless you allow him to run around unsupervised, and we know you wouldn't do that, would you?

FWIW we've had up to four intact males in the house with no fighting, marking, or other behavior problems. And we've never had any medical issues arise from keeping them intact. Once in a while one of the guys might get a little bit of prostate enlargement, but it has always resolved itself and presented no further problems.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:48 pm

shags wrote:I'm an anti-neuterer. Why on earth even consider neutering a male outside of some physical problem that makes it necessary. Behavioral problems are solved by training, not surgery. And the dog can't breed unwanted litters unless you allow him to run around unsupervised, and we know you wouldn't do that, would you?

FWIW we've had up to four intact males in the house with no fighting, marking, or other behavior problems. And we've never had any medical issues arise from keeping them intact. Once in a while one of the guys might get a little bit of prostate enlargement, but it has always resolved itself and presented no further problems.

I agree with Shags. There most definitely is a medical advantage to spaying a female. The rates of mammary cancer, which is a fairly common cancer in female dogs, is GREATLY reduced in spayed females. That is a fact. There is also the advantage of no heats, and therefore, no loss of time in the field due to a female coming in season. The one disadvantage that I have seen in some dogs, but not all, is that some tend to pick up weight and get a little chunky when spayed. This can make getting and keeping them in condition a bit more of a challenge and the extra weight will wear on the dog, over time.

There is, however, no such medical benefit from neutering males. Testicular cancer is an EXTREMELY rare cancer in dogs with normally descended testicles. The dogs that get this cancer are almost always a cryptorchid(spelling?) dog, with one or more undescended testicles that have not been removed. Avoiding such a rare cancer in a healthy dog is certainly NOT a reason to consider neutering.

The discomfort from enlarged prostates in a dog can benefit from neutering, but...if it happens at all, it will likely happen well after the dog is fully grown at five, six, seven or older... and if the prostate becomes so enlarged as to become a health concern, it can be remedied at that time.

On balance, I see no medical reason to neuter a male dog that is properly cared for and not allowed to roam free...which I would consider irresponsible in any case, especially for a hunting dog.

RayG

Emaisch1080 · Post by **Emaisch1080** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:17 am

My dog is well cared for and in fact doesn't even have a yard to get out of. Aside from his daily bathroom breaks I run him in the woods and fields 2-3 times a week. I might add this is my first dog let alone my first gun dog. I never knew about the medical concerns. Do nuetured dogs still try to hump other dogs. Really the only problem I'm having is having him boarded. My vet was really pushing it when was in there getting his shots as a pup. I'm glad I didn't go with it without getting more info.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:03 am

So, how old were you when your dad neutered you? I only neuter or spay for medical reasons. Look at it this way, you neuter you dog and while your watching TV he's got nothing to lick so he spends his time licking you!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:50 pm

Emaisch1080 wrote: Well that clears it up. Lol. One of the big problems I have is when we go away no one will board him since he's not nurtured. And if they will he is by himself in a cage.

Never heard of that. I board mine a few times a year and never even asked if he's neutered.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:25 pm

Emaisch1080 wrote:My dog is well cared for and in fact doesn't even have a yard to get out of. Aside from his daily bathroom breaks I run him in the woods and fields 2-3 times a week. I might add this is my first dog let alone my first gun dog. I never knew about the medical concerns. Do nuetured dogs still try to hump other dogs. Really the only problem I'm having is having him boarded. My vet was really pushing it when was in there getting his shots as a pup. I'm glad I didn't go with it without getting more info.

Unfortunately there are folks who get swept up into this stupidity. Depending on your locale, there might be a great deal of pressure to spay and neuter everything in sight. Veterinarians are not immune to this pressure. When a vet gets insistent on me doing things that I do not want to do...I look for another vet. It is, unfortunately, fairly common for veterinary practices, especially in urban areas, to be almost totally ignorant of the special needs of a performance dog.

FWIW, I have NEVER been told that a facility would not take one of my dogs because they were intact. I would not use them anyway, because they probably want to double up dogs...which is something I absolutely do not want. That is a prescription for disaster. And YES it is done all the time, especially during peak demand periods like Christmas, spring break, and the heart of the summer vacation period.

Find a field trial or hunting dog trainer in your area and ask them if they will kennel your dog for a vacation. Betcha they will do it, and probably for less than a typical boarding kennel too. The good news will be that the dog will be kenneld at a facility that is used to dealing with hunting dogs.

RayG

Devilscreekw · Post by **Devilscreekw** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:46 am

I was just thinking about this today. I had a real nice dog that had chronic urinary tract and prostate infections. These would show up every 12 - 18 months. Two different vet clinics guaranteed that neutering would clear up the problem.

So we neutered him at age 6. Despite continued workouts and roading he gained 15 lbs. and blew an ACL at age 7. $2800 later I'm trying to get him in shape, being very careful to not blow the other knee.

Then guess what! Urinary tract and prostate infections! Bouts of antibiotics until he started having seizures just short of his tenth birthday and I reluctantly put him down.

I know I would have been farther ahead if I hadn't gone down that road at all.

By the way, I have had 2 - 3 Pointers at a time for the past 48 years. Never had testicular cancer.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:29 pm

OP,
Yes, neutered dogs will hump other dogs. Spayed bitches hump other dogs. It's what dogs do. Humping is a training issue...if you find it objectionable, do not allow it.
Neutered dogs also mark. They roam if allowed. They growl, snap, and bite little children if not taught differently. They chew your best shoes and the sofa pillows if not taught not to. Neutered dogs eat poop and puke on your carpeting. They dig holes in the lawn and tear up your wife's flowers. Neutered dogs do all the things intact dogs do...behavioral problems are the results of lack of discipline and training, not the result of lack of major surgery!

If you decide against neutering, but you like your vet, tell him/her that you are not interested in neutering at this time, but if you change your mind he/she will be the first to know about it. You don't have to listen to the schpiel every time you go to that office, just say "No" and conversation is over.

For your consideration
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5 ... _study.pdf

This article is based on the above study and others
http://www.2ndchance.info/cruciatelongtermneuter.htm

Best wishes for a good outcome, no matter the choice you make for you and your dog.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:43 pm

Too funny!

RickB · Post by **RickB** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:44 am

RayGubernat wrote:
...There most definitely is a medical advantage to spaying a female. The rates of mammary cancer, which is a fairly common cancer in female dogs, is GREATLY reduced in spayed females. That is a fact...
RayG

I actually read somewhere that a review of the science behind the "mammary cancer" study is flawed. That is not to say that there is not a correlation. What the article was saying is that the research did not actually *prove* that there was a correlation.

The research that stated a correlation between mammary tumors and spaying in females also noted that the therapeutic effects diminish with each heat cycle. After 4 cycles, spaying will have no effect on the likelihood of mammary tumors. This is rough for us who might like to keep a female intact longer for proper bone growth.

My biggest concern with a female is pyometra. About 25% of intact dogs get this at some time in their lives. The cure is hysterectomy, but a significant number of dogs still die from the disease. Of course, the distribution is a bell curve, so a dog is going to tend to be safe until she is 2 years old or so.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:07 am

RickB wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
...There most definitely is a medical advantage to spaying a female. The rates of mammary cancer, which is a fairly common cancer in female dogs, is GREATLY reduced in spayed females. That is a fact...
RayG
I actually read somewhere that a review of the science behind the "mammary cancer" study is flawed. That is not to say that there is not a correlation. What the article was saying is that the research did not actually *prove* that there was a correlation.

The research that stated a correlation between mammary tumors and spaying in females also noted that the therapeutic effects diminish with each heat cycle. After 4 cycles, spaying will have no effect on the likelihood of mammary tumors. This is rough for us who might like to keep a female intact longer for proper bone growth.

My biggest concern with a female is pyometra. About 25% of intact dogs get this at some time in their lives. The cure is hysterectomy, but a significant number of dogs still die from the disease. Of course, the distribution is a bell curve, so a dog is going to tend to be safe until she is 2 years old or so.

Excellent points. I have lost two dogs to pyometra and its complications, over the years. Both were well over the age of two.

RayG

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:05 pm

Here is a question people should ask their Vet.. Why do we castrate, why not a vasectomy? Why a hysterectomy, why not a tubal ligation ?

Both of these procedures are less invasive and help keep hormonal balance in the dog. All of the effects of neutering should be eliminated or reduced.

When I asked I was told the vasectomy and tubal ligation are not taught in Vet. School! Really, then I said why not learn how to do these two surgeries and offer it as an alternative. I did not get much more out of him. Heck, maybe it's money, the simpler surgery should cost less.

The main concern of everyone in the business is always unwanted puppies. This stops that situation. Seems like an easy decision.

I have been to local shelters a few times, never saw any puppies. All were full size dogs of varying age. Puppies are cute, etc. and much easier to place. Then something happens and people want to give up their dog. The owners are the problem in this case, these are not unwanted puppies.

Just a thought.
Mike

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