Curled tail
Curled tail
I have a 11 month old English pointer female that I purchased as a puppy from a breeder, I didn't notice at the time when I picked her up because of her being a puppy her tail was all over the place. But since she has gotten older her tail curls back towards her head almost touching her back, I'm a little disappointed about it and need to know if this can be passed on to her puppies because I bought her to bred two of my male pointers with. Any advice would be appreciated.
Re: Curled tail
I'm not a big breeder but imo tail styles are all genetically based. Personally I wouldn't breed that dog. I'm sorry. Hopefully someone will tell me I'm wrong.
Re: Curled tail
Here's a picture of her.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
mnaj_springer
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
- Location: Northern Minnesota
Re: Curled tail
Is that a picture of her pointing?
Re: Curled tail
No, I was working with her on a check cord out in the field letting her get use to it.
-
chuckanut
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 am
- Location: Northern US Rockies
Re: Curled tail
Nice looking dog but I see what you're saying about the tail. Does it go straight on point? I guess I'd be a bit reluctant to breed her but if it's straight on point and you bred her to a dog with a nice straight tail then you might be alright.
-
RayGubernat
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3309
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Central DE
Re: Curled tail
There is a very definite genetic component to tail carriage. While the degree of curl is not extreme, it would be a cause for concern if breeding was my goal.
However, since the dog is only 11 months of age. it is possible that things could change...perhaps for the better, perhaps for the worse.
As has been mentioned previously, some dogs carry a curled tail when walking around, but it straightens out(to a degree) when the dog is intensely on point. Also, it is a fact that many dogs that start out with a curved tail will point straighter and straighter the longer they run and hunt. It seems that as they tire, the muscles that cause the tail to curl start to tire as well and the tail straightens out. I would run the youngster for a good 15 -30 minutes(watch for signs of heat stress...please) and at the end of that time bring it around into into a caged pigeon or gamebird setup. You might be pleasantly surprised.
I would say that you are correct to be concerned, but that it is a bit too early to give it up entirely. If the situation does not resolve itself by the time the dog is fully grown at say, 18-24 months of age, then it is what it is.
Beautiful dog, BTW. I wish you luck. Even if she is not breeding stock, I'd bet she makes a wonderful bird dog.
RayG
However, since the dog is only 11 months of age. it is possible that things could change...perhaps for the better, perhaps for the worse.
As has been mentioned previously, some dogs carry a curled tail when walking around, but it straightens out(to a degree) when the dog is intensely on point. Also, it is a fact that many dogs that start out with a curved tail will point straighter and straighter the longer they run and hunt. It seems that as they tire, the muscles that cause the tail to curl start to tire as well and the tail straightens out. I would run the youngster for a good 15 -30 minutes(watch for signs of heat stress...please) and at the end of that time bring it around into into a caged pigeon or gamebird setup. You might be pleasantly surprised.
I would say that you are correct to be concerned, but that it is a bit too early to give it up entirely. If the situation does not resolve itself by the time the dog is fully grown at say, 18-24 months of age, then it is what it is.
Beautiful dog, BTW. I wish you luck. Even if she is not breeding stock, I'd bet she makes a wonderful bird dog.
RayG
Re: Curled tail
A poker straight tail is probably the least important thing you need in a bird dog. No breed requires it and has only one reason for being. The early pointers had tails that were all over the place some were straight out, some lower than the dogs back. some curled up. None had pokerstraght twelve o'clock tails. It is only quite recently that the straight up tail has became one of the most important characteristics of a pointer.
If this bitch turns out to be a super good dog with many desirable characteristics and without any other conformation issues it would be silly not to breed her. Who knows she may not pass this on to her puppies and for sure not to all of them
Of course this is from a shorttail guy.......................Cj
If this bitch turns out to be a super good dog with many desirable characteristics and without any other conformation issues it would be silly not to breed her. Who knows she may not pass this on to her puppies and for sure not to all of them
Of course this is from a shorttail guy.......................Cj
Re: Curled tail
Thank you all for the response's, I'm going to start working her on some birds and see what happens. I know the position of the tail is not what makes them find birds or makes a great bird dog I guess its a visual thing for me and if it doesn't get any better I'll be ok. I'll probably bred her with Cooper the dog pictured in my avatar and see what happens. Other then the tail thing shes' turning out to be a very good bird dog with what little work I've done with her.
-
RayGubernat
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3309
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Central DE
Re: Curled tail
Cj -cjhills wrote:A poker straight tail is probably the least important thing you need in a bird dog. No breed requires it and has only one reason for being. The early pointers had tails that were all over the place some were straight out, some lower than the dogs back. some curled up. None had pokerstraght twelve o'clock tails. It is only quite recently that the straight up tail has became one of the most important characteristics of a pointer.
If this bitch turns out to be a super good dog with many desirable characteristics and without any other conformation issues it would be silly not to breed her. Who knows she may not pass this on to her puppies and for sure not to all of them
Of course this is from a shorttail guy.......................Cj
If you are going to breed FDSB pointers...and expect to sell them... appearance does indeed count. There are hundreds of dogs out there that are excellent bird dogs...AND they have good bites...AND they have poker straight tails...AND they are easy to break ...AND they are cooperative and biddable...AND... AND...AND.
Puppies out of multiple champion dogs, even national champions... typically fetch somewhere between $500 - 1000. The pick of the litter might go for a grand, but the last couple of the litter might go for $200.
Breeding pointers is not something you do to make money, unless you are very very good at it. There are too many really good dogs around...always have been.
RayG
Re: Curled tail
Just nit-picking here, but-
Actually, the pointer breed standard calls for a bee-sting tail,....
"Tail-Heavier at the root., tapering to a fine point. Length no greater than to hock. A tail longer than this or docked must be penalized. Carried without curl, and not more than 20 degrees above the line of the back: never carried between the legs."
Won't comment on where they should be carried- that's a whole different argument/discussion.
Pointer folks feel free to correct me, but if you look at tails that are nice and straight, they seem to follow the above. They are shorter, thicker at the base and have a nice slow taper.
Long ropey tails probably get beat up more? And they would bend and curve simply because they get long and thin? So sometimes those breed standards really do have a reason. Both types of tails, short and straight, and long and ropey are genetic traits..... so breeding a poor tail will just bring more poor tails. And vet bills that come along with it. ?????
Even in my breed, I see skinny tails, skinny from attachment to the ends (and we are docked) and I dislike them. I want a nice thick tail....
Actually, the pointer breed standard calls for a bee-sting tail,....
"Tail-Heavier at the root., tapering to a fine point. Length no greater than to hock. A tail longer than this or docked must be penalized. Carried without curl, and not more than 20 degrees above the line of the back: never carried between the legs."
Won't comment on where they should be carried- that's a whole different argument/discussion.
Pointer folks feel free to correct me, but if you look at tails that are nice and straight, they seem to follow the above. They are shorter, thicker at the base and have a nice slow taper.
Long ropey tails probably get beat up more? And they would bend and curve simply because they get long and thin? So sometimes those breed standards really do have a reason. Both types of tails, short and straight, and long and ropey are genetic traits..... so breeding a poor tail will just bring more poor tails. And vet bills that come along with it. ?????
Even in my breed, I see skinny tails, skinny from attachment to the ends (and we are docked) and I dislike them. I want a nice thick tail....
Re: Curled tail
Thanks,I stand corrected...................Cjfuzznut wrote:Just nit-picking here, but-
Actually, the pointer breed standard calls for a bee-sting tail,....
"Tail-Heavier at the root., tapering to a fine point. Length no greater than to hock. A tail longer than this or docked must be penalized. Carried without curl, and not more than 20 degrees above the line of the back: never carried between the legs."
Won't comment on where they should be carried- that's a whole different argument/discussion.
Pointer folks feel free to correct me, but if you look at tails that are nice and straight, they seem to follow the above. They are shorter, thicker at the base and have a nice slow taper.
Long ropey tails probably get beat up more? And they would bend and curve simply because they get long and thin? So sometimes those breed standards really do have a reason. Both types of tails, short and straight, and long and ropey are genetic traits..... so breeding a poor tail will just bring more poor tails. And vet bills that come along with it. ?????
Even in my breed, I see skinny tails, skinny from attachment to the ends (and we are docked) and I dislike them. I want a nice thick tail....
Re: Curled tail
It is a genetic trait and caused by breeding for a high tail! AF field trialers consider a high tailed dog while running to be classy and breed for it. There is a fine line between "not enough tail" and "too much tail" and that hooked tail is unfortunately, a product of "over breeding. I have a young female that I bred with a curve in the top half of her tail, but poker straight 12:00 when on point. A very classy stride while running. Her mother has the "bee sting" short, straight tail. Her sire has a high straight tail so don't exactly know where the curve comes from!
One very bad practice is the "fixing" of tails, where a skilled vet cuts the tail in certain areas to straighten up a dogs sickle tail! It is a sin imo, because you don't know whether it has been done before you breed your bitch to any given stud in the field trial world.
One very bad practice is the "fixing" of tails, where a skilled vet cuts the tail in certain areas to straighten up a dogs sickle tail! It is a sin imo, because you don't know whether it has been done before you breed your bitch to any given stud in the field trial world.
Re: Curled tail
Of course there is no "standard " for FDSB registered pointers. Breeders know what is wanted and what judges like to see.
as Ray said so well:
"If you are going to breed FDSB pointers...and expect to sell them... appearance does indeed count. There are hundreds of dogs out there that are excellent bird dogs...AND they have good bites...AND they have poker straight tails...AND they are easy to break ...AND they are cooperative and biddable...AND... AND...AND.
Puppies out of multiple champion dogs, even national champions... typically fetch somewhere between $500 - 1000. The pick of the litter might go for a grand, but the last couple of the litter might go for $200.
Breeding pointers is not something you do to make money, unless you are very very good at it. There are too many really good dogs around...always have been. "
RayG[/quote]
as Ray said so well:
"If you are going to breed FDSB pointers...and expect to sell them... appearance does indeed count. There are hundreds of dogs out there that are excellent bird dogs...AND they have good bites...AND they have poker straight tails...AND they are easy to break ...AND they are cooperative and biddable...AND... AND...AND.
Puppies out of multiple champion dogs, even national champions... typically fetch somewhere between $500 - 1000. The pick of the litter might go for a grand, but the last couple of the litter might go for $200.
Breeding pointers is not something you do to make money, unless you are very very good at it. There are too many really good dogs around...always have been. "
RayG[/quote]