Question for Pointer and Setter guys and gals

[chiendog]

I am working (about as fast as a turtle on quaaludes) through my next volume on pointing dogs, and have come up with a bit of a head scratcher that I hope you Pointer and Setter guys and girls can help me out with.

Let's say you take top-of-the-line field bred gundogs from each of the British and Irish breeds and have them stand next to each other. Even Mr. Magoo would notice that the Pointer has short hair, the setters have long hair, each breed with its own colour(s). Upon closer inspection, you may also notice other differences in the overall look, maybe ear length/shape, head shape, whatever.

But what happens when those same dogs run? Let's say you could completely ignore colour, coat length, size...everything except the way the dogs run. Is there a difference? And I don't mean speed, obviously some dogs are faster than others, I mean the way they gallop from point A to point B, turn, speed up, slow down...basically how they move in the field when they hunt. Are there breed-related differences? And if there are, what are they?

The reason I ask is that in Europe, the working standards for the British and Irish breeds mention breed-specific running and pointing styles and field trial judges actually look for them and hunters expect to see them. So they expect to see some differences in the way a top-of-the-line Gordon setter runs compared to a top-of-the-line English or Irish setter for example. And they expect to see some differences in the way a top-of-the-line Pointer runs compared to any setter. So when you watch a trial or hunt with Pointers or Setters over there, you can see some differences, some are subtle, others are quite obvious, but there are definitely differences in the way they move.  

Again, it is not really a question of speed (they want/expect all the dogs to run like their a** is on fire) or range (they want/expect all the dogs to run way the heck out there) it is a question of actual differences in the way the dogs move when they gallop, turn, enter the scent cone and point.

But what about in North America? I know that field trial judges want to see dogs with tons of style, class and all the rest, and I suspect that they don't really look for breed-specific running styles, but I still have to wonder, when you see a setter run and a pointer run, ignoring their coat, colour and everything else can you actually see a difference in the way they move?

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

[Ouzel]

I still have to wonder, when you see a setter run and a pointer run, ignoring their coat, colour and everything else can you actually see a difference in the way they move?

But, of course

[Ouzel]

[Ouzel]

[mnaj_springer]

Ouzel, I believe when he says "Pointer" he means English Pointer. I also believe he already has a book out on the Continental breeds. Correct?

[chiendog]

Yes, sorry, I should have made it clearer. The book I am currently writing is on the British and Irish breeds. In other words, it will focus on the Pointer and the 4 setters (English, Gordon, Irish and Irish Red and White). More info on it here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... r-rhu.html

[Neil]

Ouzel, I believe when he says "Pointer" he means English Pointer. I also believe he already has a book out on the Continental breeds. Correct?

Yep, neither AKC nor FDSB use a prefix it is just pointer.

And at the highest levels, there is no difference between the pointer and English setter, and only a slight difference in those and the Gordon and Irish/red, with the latter sometimes having a tendency to lope.

The Continentals are gaited differently, with the exception of the All-Age GSP.

[Gertie]

DonF (Pointing Dog Photography) has some amazing photos that he has taken of pointing breeds in action that you might be interested in. He's on this forum and has a FB page as well. This is a photo he took of my setter that I love.

[Leeza]

I have 1 English out of Grouse Ridge lines and 1 out of Tekoa Mountain lines. The Tekoa dog has huge feet and an extra long shoulder and runs like a horse. The Grouse Ridge dog is petite, small footed and has a compact skeleton. Even though they are both setters they travel differently I think due to their build. We had setters from Jim Marti's Burnt Creek Kennel when I was a kid. They also had small feet and lots of grace in the field. Maybe these are minor differences in the breed but noticeable to me. These are just my amateur observations and might be splitting hairs here.

[Gertie]

I was thinking about this today and came up with a possible observation. This is by no means a statement of fact or likely even very useful to the op but, to me, it seems like some dogs run by "pulling" from the front, and by that I mean that their power seems to come from really digging in with the front paws and shoulders for acceleration. Other dogs seem to "push" from the back using their hind legs to propel them forward. I'm not quite sure if I could say that what I've noticed is a breeding thing or a training thing or even a bit of both. It would make sense that dogs that are conditioned via roading would pull from the front when they're running and dogs that are used to running in cover would use their back legs more to maneuver over and around obstacles. However, if my observation has any validity (and I hope someone with more experience than I have chimes in here) then perhaps the breeding of a dog based cover and target species (grouse woods, prairies, quail cover, chuckar hills, etc) and perhaps even the way an individul dog is conditioned is more relevant in the modern setters and pointers than the actual breed. Thoughts?

[SCT]

Great observations Gertie. I have a female pointer that runs like you described where she digs in with her front feet, but she also has a powerful hind end, and is the fastest and smoothest dog I've ever seen run. Interestingly, her full sister (from different litters), has a slightly different conformation as well as gait. However, she is very fast on the ground too, just not quite as smooth.

I've posted these drawings up before comparing their two slightly different compositions, but you might be surprised which one has the smoothest gait. This is all subjective and anecdotal, no real science here, but these are my observations. Both are short coupled, out of the same parents.



To the OP, "Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis" by Curtis Brown may be a book you'd be interested in reading and owning. It is very interesting and scientifically done. Brown spent many hours analyzing dogs of different breeds and wild dogs on treadmills. It goes into more depth than you can imagine about gait and foot placement.

Steve

[Gordon Guy]

As a Gordon (field lines) owner since 1988 and a breeder (field lines) since 2003 I've had several adults (16+) dogs and I've noticed that there's a difference in the way my dogs move when compared to continental breeds. I do enter my dogs in hunt tests and AKC trials so I am able to compare as most of the dogs I've run against are continental breeds. There's a flow to the way my Gordons cover the ground which is different. Several judges have stated that my dogs are "fun to watch", or in one case last April "The prettiest running dog at the trial". Which was mostly GSP's. With that said, there's also a variation in the way they move within my chosen breed. Enough of a variation that I would refrain from making a firm statement (Other than what I already made) about the way all Gordon Setters move. Because there's a big variation in Gordons that are used in the field, from an 70 - 80+ lb 27" tall woodcock and grouse dogs, more likely seen on the East Coast and upper Midwest, to the 39 lb 23" tall "Rockets" out west. Not that you won't see 39 lb dogs in the East or Midwest, but it's less likely that you'll see a 70 to 80 lb dog being used for hunting in the west.

I've watched a few "Youtube" videos of Gordon trials in Europe and the way the dogs move there does not appeal to me. With their head and tail tucked. They are certainly different then the way my dogs move. My dogs and the Gordon's that I've seen here are more animated then those on the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWBx5VZXhQ

I'll try to get a video uploaded of my dogs running.

I've been to a NSTRA trial or two and those trials are much more viewable from the gallery as compared to a AKC or a AF trial. There's quite a variation among the E. Setters that I've watched there too. Some are quite smooth but yet with a lower tail and head while they run. And others are quite "Merry" in their way of moving with high heads and tails, almost a bounce to their gait. Overhearing the comments from the gallery It appears that most folks like the dogs that exhibit higher head and high tail while moving. I must say that that style of run appeals to me too.

[Grange]

I watched several walking shooting dog trials (including cover dog) and judged some trials as well and I do see a difference in Pointers and Setters. I would be hard pressed to be able to point out what causes the difference, but to my eyes there is a difference. Pointers look like they have more power and Setters look like they have more grace. Pointers look like they are driving forward and Setters seem to flow forward more. I don't know if the difference is in the actual motion or something else like the hair length.

[Sharon]

I watched several walking shooting dog trials (including cover dog) and judged some trials as well and I do see a difference in Pointers and Setters. I would be hard pressed to be able to point out what causes the difference, but to my eyes there is a difference. Pointers look like they have more power and Setters look like they have more grace. Pointers look like they are driving forward and Setters seem to flow forward more. I don't know if the difference is in the actual motion or something else like the hair length.

Well said. Exactly my experience.

[Trekmoor]

I have never owned a pointer or a setter but I have watched them hunting and I felt the pointers were more inclined to run a "flat pattern" than were the setters , especially the Irish Setters. Some of that breed reminded me a bit of the difference I sometimes see between springer spaniels and cocker spaniels. The springers often tended to work "flatter" than the cockers. Like the cockers but on a far greater scale, Irish Setters had a more erratic pattern.

The really good setters were, to my eyes, more exciting to watch but the pointers just seemed to flow over the ground in a more straight line.

I have edited this to add that setters "set" and pointers point. It seems an obvious thing to say but British setters often clap right down among the heather when they find game. Some pointers do this too but maybe not so many ? I don't think after seeing pics of setters on point on this forum that the British setters habit of "setting" would find much favour in America. You seem to like your dogs to stand tall and probably with a well raised tail too. The upraised tail in particular would not be liked much here.
I often wonder if the crouched pointing attitudes of many of the pointers and setters I see working here are partially the result of us expecting the dog to stalk forward on command to flush the game ? Do we unknowingly actually encourage/train that crouched pointing attitude ?

Bill T.

[Gordon Guy]

I don't think after seeing pics of setters on point on this forum that the British setters habit of "setting" would find much favour in America.

It's reason enough to consider not breeding the dog that "sets". To use your term.

I often wonder if the crouched pointing attitudes of many of the pointers and setters I see working here are partially the result of us expecting the dog to stalk forward on command to flush the game ? Do we unknowingly actually encourage/train that crouched pointing attitude ?

I'm sure you know this from being a member on this forum, but in our trials once a handler starts to flush the dog better not move. Getting my setters to "stalk" forward is easy enough, because in my experience, they do that willingly if you don't train them to stand, or be staunch on point.

[Devilscreekw]

I don't believe there are tons of differences in running style between North American English Setters and Pointers. Probably more differences between individual dogs.

You know me. If you want to see a hot bred Pointer that moves great already at 5 months, give me a shout.

Harv

[Gordon Guy]

Trekmoor,

As evident by the attached Youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I56pvuEK_0

I get frustrated with the handlers in these videos and how they just stand behind the dog... and wait... and wait...and wait...and wait...and wait...and wait...(I'm thinking all along, For Gods sake help the dog get out front). In the US we are more aggressive in our style of flushing the birds. You let the dogs flush, we generally do not. I bet you this has something to do with staunchness on point??!!

Also, as noted in this video the dog is trailing ground scent. We generally prefer the heads higher and them using body scent. I have found with a dogs nose to the ground it often results in the dog approaching the birds too closely and the birds being flushed by the dog out of range of the gunners.