Snake in the yard

[benelli]

Last night our GSP came across a snake in the backyard. It was coiled up, but looked to be 3-4 feet in length. We live in the Mojave desert, so my presumption is the snake is poisonous. The dog barked but stayed far away from the snake (we've had snake aversion training done on him, but that was two years ago - looks like maybe it worked, though).

Neither my husband or I have any familiarity with snakes, and while we were in the house trying to figure out what to do, the snake disappeared and we haven't seen it since. Hopefully being barked at and having a flashlight shone at it have made it decide to move on somewhere else.

If it comes back, though, any advice on what to do? We have five boys ages 2-4 who spend several hours a day playing in the backyard; fortunately, the dog is usually out there with them, constantly moving along the edge of the yard and investigating bushes - so if the snake returned, he would hopefully alert us to its presence before the boys stumbled across it. Those of you who are more familiar with snakes and their behavior, if we see the snake again, what should we do? Anything?

As it is we don't have much in our yard to attract snakes - few bushes, and the ones that are there we will be trimming back even further to make them less attractive to snakes and/or snake prey. The dog spends lots of time in the backyard trotting along the fenceline, so there's pretty constant activity.

Any suggestions or advice, please let me know; the idea of poisonous snakes being near my kids (or the dog) makes me nervous, especially since we're about an hour from the nearest hospital. Thanks!

[bobman]

rattlesnakes rattle so if it wasn't it was probably harmless

have your vet use some red rock biologic rattlesnake vaccine on your dog , it takes two shots about a month apart

keep some Benadryl handy and give it to the dog if it's bitten

most snakes are not poisonous and are beneficial, in the USA poisonous snakes have a verticals slit for an eye pupil non poisonous snakes have a round pupil

teach your kids not to handle snakes and to run and tell you if they see one

[DougB]

Rattle snakes frequently, but not always, rattle. A really long stick or catch pole and a 5 gallon bucket with a lid. One of my brothers lives in Arizona, and is with a group of retired adrenaline junkies who remove snakes from inhabited areas. He has a picture of himself with a 4' rattle snake taken from under a sofa in a house. They catch and release. Another reason to live in Minnesota.

Feed and water the dog inside to avoid attracting rodents, or remove the food from the outside immediately after feeding. Don't leave water where the snakes can get to it.

[mask]

In desert areas snakes usually look for shade in the day and in the warm months usually hunt at night. With small children at risk one might want to err on the side of caution. Rattle snakes do not always rattle and should always be considered dangerous. I kill every rattle snake I find and that is one more I don't have to worry about.

[Spy Car]

There is no evidence the so-called rattlesnake "vaccine" works.

Leading veterinary centers, like UC Davis, recommend against it for showing no demonstrated efficacy.

On top of this the manufacturer, Red Rocks Biologics, says very specifically that their shot does not provide protection against venom from Mojave Rattlesnakes.

Bill

[nevermind]

There is no evidence the so-called rattlesnake "vaccine" works.

Leading veterinary centers, like UC Davis, recommend against it for showing no demonstrated efficacy.

On top of this the manufacturer, Red Rocks Biologics, says very specifically that their shot does not provide protection against venom from Mojave Rattlesnakes.

Bill

I haven't researched rattlesnake vaccine, but evidently you have. When you state there's no evidence that it works do you have evidence that it doesn't?
Did the study you refer to that says there's not a demonstrated efficacy did it mean to prevent death or did it mean it won't prevent a reaction to the rattlesnake bite.

[Spy Car]

I haven't researched rattlesnake vaccine, but evidently you have. When you state there's no evidence that it works do you have evidence that it doesn't?
Did the study you refer to that says there's not a demonstrated efficacy did it mean to prevent death or did it mean it won't prevent a reaction to the rattlesnake bite.

I looked into the "vaccine" because I live in an area where rattlesnakes are common in the hills and trails we use for recreation. I would love having safe and effective protection for my dog against rattlesnake bites, but the more I looked into it the less it seems that this "vaccine" is effective.

There are no "studies." There has been no scientific evidence suggesting it works. Davis and the Colorado State University vet school both give the thumbs down based on lack of proven efficacy.

One is injecting a toxin into ones dog when using this product. Were it effective, the benefits would outweigh the risks in my estimation, but is it effective? Seems doubtful.

Bill

[bobman]

The main reason there are not any studies is because of public would go crazy if somebody was killing dogs to prove it worked. IE a control group

I have friends that use it and have dogs that have been bitten and they believe it worked. I also have many friends and myself whose dogs have been vaccinated with no ill effects.

get on upland journal and ask the question lots of guys use it

and Mojave rattlesnakes are not the only specie of rattle snakes in the Mojave desert

[rinker]

I fully realize that snakes have a place in the environment, and they can do beneficial things like control rodent populations. Their place, however, is not in my yard, barn, or kennel. I find a few snakes each year somewhere around my yard, and I whack them with a shovel.

[Spy Car]

The main reason there are not any studies is because of public would go crazy if somebody was killing dogs to prove it worked. IE a control group

I have friends that use it and have dogs that have been bitten and they believe it worked. I also have many friends and myself whose dogs have been vaccinated with no ill effects.

get on upland journal and ask the question lots of guys use it

There are ways to design studies that don't involve killing dogs, having them intentionally bitten, or injecting them with venom.

Lots of people believe lots of things that ain't so. I had a fella tell me all his hunt buddies believed the vaccine worked on Water Moccasin bites (a species even Red Rocks says their product doesn't protect against). Colorado State Vet. looked at the anecdotal evidence and found it uncompelling. The treatments are exactly the same in "vaccinated" dogs and dogs who have not had the Red Rocks shots.

There are claims of significant injury from the shots. It is hard to judge these sorts of things in the age of "internet claims."

My vet said no. She doesn't believe it does any good. A product of this sort should have reliable evidence to show it is effective before making claims IMO.

As I said, I'd love real protection. I don't believe this product does anything. If it does, there is certainly no proof.

Bill

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

The main reason there are not any studies is because of public would go crazy if somebody was killing dogs to prove it worked. IE a control group

I have friends that use it and have dogs that have been bitten and they believe it worked. I also have many friends and myself whose dogs have been vaccinated with no ill effects.

get on upland journal and ask the question lots of guys use it

There are ways to design studies that don't involve killing dogs, having them intentionally bitten, or injecting them with venom.

Lots of people believe lots of things that ain't so. I had a fella tell me all his hunt buddies believed the vaccine worked on Water Moccasin bites (a species even Red Rocks says their product doesn't protect against). Colorado State Vet. looked at the anecdotal evidence and found it uncompelling. The treatments are exactly the same in "vaccinated" dogs and dogs who have not had the Red Rocks shots.

There are claims of significant injury from the shots. It is hard to judge these sorts of things in the age of "internet claims."

My vet said no. She doesn't believe it does any good. A product of this sort should have reliable evidence to show it is effective before making claims IMO.

As I said, I'd love real protection. I don't believe this product does anything. If it does, there is certainly no proof.

Bill

It helps.... Unfortunately I have seen or owned several dogs that have been bitten and those that had the vaccine did better. Every Vet that I have used recommend it.

[Spy Car]

It helps.... Unfortunately I have seen or owned several dogs that have been bitten and those that had the vaccine did better. Every Vet that I have used recommend it.

Snakebites are so variable, from being dry bites, to releasing little venom, to massive releases, that one can't know dogs on the vaccines "did better" without knowing "did better than what?"

As I said, leading Vet schools have looked at it and seen no difference between so-called "vaccinated" dogs and ones that didn't get the vaccine.

Bill

[ezzy333]

It helps.... Unfortunately I have seen or owned several dogs that have been bitten and those that had the vaccine did better. Every Vet that I have used recommend it.

Snakebites are so variable, from being dry bites, to releasing little venom, to massive releases, that one can't know dogs on the vaccines "did better" without knowing "did better than what?"

As I said, leading Vet schools have looked at it and seen no difference between so-called "vaccinated" dogs and ones that didn't get the vaccine.

Bill

My question is how did the schools determine it made no difference when you said they have not done any tests and if the bite??s are so different that the experienced dog owner can't tell if it is effective how did the school?

[Spy Car]

My question is how did the schools determine it made no difference when you said they have not done any tests and if the bite??s are so different that the experienced dog owner can't tell if it is effective how did the school?

They saw that dogs receiving veterinary care following bites survived in the same (high) percentages if "vaccinated" or not, and generally required the same amount of anti-venom. Not perfect science either way, but there is no evidence to suggest the effacasy of the "vaccine," or that it made a bit of difference in either treatment or outcomes.

The burden of proof is rightly on the manufacturer who is making the claims. But they have no evidence to support their product.

Bill

[DonF]

What I have heard about the stuff is it won't actually work but will give you more time to get to a vet.

[Spy Car]

What I have heard about the stuff is it won't actually work but will give you more time to get to a vet.

That is a "claim," but there is no evidence to support that claim.

Bill

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

What I have heard about the stuff is it won't actually work but will give you more time to get to a vet.

That is a "claim," but there is no evidence to support that claim.

Bill

How about actual experience? Does that count?

[Spy Car]

How about actual experience? Does that count?

The actual experience shows about 95% of dogs who are treated for snakebites survive. The "vaccine" doesn't change that one iota.

Either way, a snakebite means a emergency run to a vet.

Bill

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

How about actual experience? Does that count?

The actual experience shows about 95% of dogs who are treated for snakebites survive. The "vaccine" doesn't change that one iota.

Either way, a snakebite means a emergency run to a vet.

Bill

But it does reduce the effects. I do agree that an emergency visit is required but calling it useless is absurd especially since I have actually seen a difference. I don't know where this "95%" number comes from but Having had dogs bit in the face, some before having the vaccine and others after, every one that had the vaccine recovered faster.

[mask]

The person ask how to protect family and dogs. Elimination of snakes is the short answer. They may not want to let the dog or kids out after dark in the summer. There are other rattle snakes is the desert besides Mojave greens. In this area there are no vets that carry anti-venom so I use the vaccine and carry other meds and an I.V. kit as well. I wouldn't use the vaccine if I didn't think it helped and I hunt a long way from the nearest vet most times. As always it is your dog so do what you think best.

[Spy Car]

But it does reduce the effects. I do agree that an emergency visit is required but calling it useless is absurd especially since I have actually seen a difference. I don't know where this "95%" number comes from but Having had dogs bit in the face, some before having the vaccine and others after, every one that had the vaccine recovered faster.

There is no evidence to support what you are asserting. Leading vet centers say the opposite: that the so-called "vaccine" has no effect on outcomes.

If Red Rocks had the evidence they'd show it, but they don't.

Do what you will, but I prefer using products that are proven to work. This one isn't.

Bill

[benelli]

Yeah, as mask said I'm looking more for how to get rid of snakes, not how to vaccinate my dog against them. Honestly, I'm more worried about the kids than the dog; in theory I can tell them "Don't touch snakes," but with their ages ranging from 2-4, I'm not going to rely on their judgment and assume they'll be fine.

Mostly I'm wondering how likely it seems to people familiar with snakes' behavior that the snake will return; I feel pretty confident that that was its first time in our yard, and we don't have much around that I think would attract it back (the dog is fed and watered inside). If it does return, should I try to kill it, and if so, how? I'm not confident enough in my ability to assess whether the snake is poisonous or not (especially if it shows up after dark), but guessing on that and letting it live because I'm not sure it's poisonous doesn't sound good to me.

Thanks!

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

But it does reduce the effects. I do agree that an emergency visit is required but calling it useless is absurd especially since I have actually seen a difference. I don't know where this "95%" number comes from but Having had dogs bit in the face, some before having the vaccine and others after, every one that had the vaccine recovered faster.

There is no evidence to support what you are asserting. Leading vet centers say the opposite: that the so-called "vaccine" has no effect on outcomes.

If Red Rocks had the evidence they'd show it, but they don't.

Do what you will, but I prefer using products that are proven to work. This one isn't.

Bill

Bill, Do you have evidence to explain otherwise? What products work better? I'm always looking for better ways to protect my dogs.

OP, kill the snake if you see it again and you are worried about your kids. Having met you, I think you are tough enough.

[oldbeek]

Benneli lives in a mainly Mojave Green Rattle snake area. I personally contacted Red Rock Labs. and they said their vaccine is useless on Mojave Green venom. The Santa Clarita chapter of quail unlimited does an excellent job on aversion training and proceeds go to improve quail habitat. My dog was first aversion trained by a local kennel club. The next year she tried to take on a Mojave Green. This spring quail unlimited trained her again. This summer while training in the evening she shot out of some cover tail and ears down, I whoaed her and went to investigate the area. Sure enough there was a rattler that never rattled. She just scented it and went the other way. Gopher snakes have a different smell. I had one in the yard that she stepped on and did not smell it. I had another she saw by sight. It was coiled and hissing. She was ready to take it on till I smacked her.

[Spy Car]

Bill, Do you have evidence to explain otherwise? What products work better? I'm always looking for better ways to protect my dogs.

OP, kill the snake if you see it again and you are worried about your kids. Having met you, I think you are tough enough.

I'm not sure what you mean by "evidence to explain otherwise"?

There are no competing products. Too bad. I would happily (very happily) pay for a safe and effective medication that helped protect my dog from rattlesnake bites. There are few things I'd wish to have more.

Unfortunately other than rattlesnake aversion training (which is helpful) and avoiding risky areas durning high rattlesnake season (which ain't always easy for everyone) we've got nothing.

I'm just not buying into false hopes with a product that seems as questionable in its effectiveness as this one does.

Bill

[mask]

Benelli The type snakes in your area are no fun. 38 cal. snake loads work well or any old shotgun. Anyway take care. PM sent.

[RayGubernat]

Yeah, as mask said I'm looking more for how to get rid of snakes, not how to vaccinate my dog against them. Honestly, I'm more worried about the kids than the dog; in theory I can tell them "Don't touch snakes," but with their ages ranging from 2-4, I'm not going to rely on their judgment and assume they'll be fine.

Mostly I'm wondering how likely it seems to people familiar with snakes' behavior that the snake will return; I feel pretty confident that that was its first time in our yard, and we don't have much around that I think would attract it back (the dog is fed and watered inside). If it does return, should I try to kill it, and if so, how? I'm not confident enough in my ability to assess whether the snake is poisonous or not (especially if it shows up after dark), but guessing on that and letting it live because I'm not sure it's poisonous doesn't sound good to me.

Thanks!

Benelli -

Getting snakes to avoid your property is something I can help with a bit. You have already been advised about eliminating mice and rats and water sources and that is a big part of it. If there is no reason for a snake to come into your yard...it generally won't. Marigolds(the yellow ones only) will repel rabbits and other rodents, and they even look nice. Rabbits have babies and baby rabbits are snake food.

A wide (12") ribbon of powdered sulfur will repel snakes and so will naphthalene(moth preventative). I use both powdered sulfur and mothballs(the mothballs last longer than crystals) because my wife is deathly afraid of snakes and I do not want my dogs to mess with them. The problem with sulfur is that there is a smell of rotten eggs and when it rains for any length of time you need to re-apply.

The mix also repels rodents and that is fine because I don't want my bird dogs messing with rabbits either.

RayG

[Spy Car]

Numerous authoritative sources say that repellants like moth balls and sulfur and marigolds don't work.

UC Davis Veterinary School says:

Repellents

Over the years various home remedies have been suggested to repel snakes, such as placing a horsehair rope around your sleeping bag, sprinkling sulfur dust, or scattering mothballs around the area to be protected. Unfortunately, none of these remedies work. Despite what you may hear, there are no plants that repel snakes. Currently, several commercially available chemical snake repellents are on the market, but none of them have been proven to work well enough to warrant recommendation.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74119.html

What works is good snake-proof fencing, gates with no gaps, clearing away hiding places, and eliminating rodents and other food sources.

Bill

[RayGubernat]

Numerous authoritative sources say that repellants like moth balls and sulfur and marigolds don't work.

UC Davis Veterinary School says:

Repellents

Over the years various home remedies have been suggested to repel snakes, such as placing a horsehair rope around your sleeping bag, sprinkling sulfur dust, or scattering mothballs around the area to be protected. Unfortunately, none of these remedies work. Despite what you may hear, there are no plants that repel snakes. Currently, several commercially available chemical snake repellents are on the market, but none of them have been proven to work well enough to warrant recommendation.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74119.html

What works is good snake-proof fencing, gates with no gaps, clearing away hiding places, and eliminating rodents and other food sources.

Bill

I realize this is anecdotal evidence, but I have personally seen a black snake come up out of a tax ditch near my property, go to the wooden board fence and then, when it was within a foot or so of the fence to raise up, then turn around and head back to the ditch. There was sulfur and mothballs along the fencing.

As I said, the mix also repels rodents.

RayG

[Spy Car]

Colorado State University says:

Repellents

Dr. T’s Snake-A-Way (7 percent naphthalene and 28 percent sulfur), a commercial snake repellent, was not successful in repelling gopher snakes (Marsh 1993), western rattlesnakes (Marsh 1993), brown tree snakes (McCoid et al. 1993), and plains garter snakes (Ferraro 1995). Napthalene and sulfur used individually were also not effective in repelling plains garter snakes (Ferraro 1995).

Several potential home remedies were evaluated to determine if they would repel black rat snakes. Treatments tested included gourd vines, moth balls, sulfur, cedar oil, a tacky bird repellent, lime, cayenne pepper spray, sisal rope, coal tar and creosote, liquid smoke, artificial skunk scent, and musk from a king snake (they eat other snakes) (San Julian and Woodward 1985). None of these remedies repelled black rat snakes.

Currently, there is not enough conclusive data to recommend these repellents for snakes.

Bill

[Flint]

I've had multiple friends that had dogs bit after being vaccinated & snake proofed. Most of the time the dogs survived but not always. I still do both (vaccinate 2 x yr & snake train whenever the opportunity arises). I have too much invested both financially & emotionally not to do what I can.

As to how to kill the snake, a 38 shotshell works but a 44 or 45 works better. If shooting isn't allowed, the best snake killer I've found is a fresh cut stick (limber) about 3/4" diameter. Smack them near the head & they die quicker than anything else I've tried. (old forestry school trick).

Be careful moving the "dead snake" though as the often still bite reflexively. Cut off the head & bury it where it won't get stepped on.

You can never predict snake behavior. I recently moved a load of lumber. It looked "snaky" so we made an effort to move-drop each board before we picked it up. We were making lot's of noise & thought we'd given any snakes plenty of warning to move but sure enough, the very last board had a fat sidewinder laying under it. The guy helping me has been bit before on the hand & assures me it was a miserable experience.

[nevermind]

Dang.... OP I guess you better pray to Saint Patrick for help.

[mrbobaz]

Long handled square-nosed shovel. Remove head, collect rattles, skin and make appetizers.

[mask]

The best snake barrier we have found is 2 or 3 feet of aviary netting around what ever you want protected. We use it around our camp and tie out yard in North Dakota and Montana. we make a fence by holding it upright with fiber glass rods used for electric fencing. If a non poisonous snake gets caught you can release it. If a rattler they are easily killed. We started utilizing this method about a bout ten years ago when we found a rattler under our camper. They get stuck and can't back out because of their scales.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Umm, the OP lives on a Military Base so shooting a snake is a dumb idea unless you want your hubbies career ended. Putting up a barrier is also not an option and potions such as Lyme don't work. I'm sure that she could call someone that has experience to come out to check the area...

[mask]

Umm, the OP lives on a Military Base so shooting a snake is a dumb idea unless you want your hubbies career ended. Putting up a barrier is also not an option and potions such as Lyme don't work. I'm sure that she could call someone that has experience to come out to check the area...

I guess if I had known these little facts I would have said chop up the snakes with a hoe or give them a good coating of wasp spray. Sheesh. :roll:

[chwagn11]

There is no evidence the so-called rattlesnake "vaccine" works.

Leading veterinary centers, like UC Davis, recommend against it for showing no demonstrated efficacy.

On top of this the manufacturer, Red Rocks Biologics, says very specifically that their shot does not provide protection against venom from Mojave Rattlesnakes.

Bill

There is all sorts of evidence it works, it is not labeled for prairie rattlers but works well for them. The vets that I have talked to have never had a vaccinated dog die from a prairie rattler but have had numerous they could not save when not vaccinated. Enough evidence for me I guess.

[ncpointers]

Benelli,

Cutting off the food is the best way to not attract.

If it returns, a five foot piece of 3/4 inch electrical metal conduit and a 12 foot piece of 1/8 inch aircraft cable makes the best snake catcher I have ever used. I have several rat snakes every year in the chicken coop. Double the cable and send in through the pipe until the loop extends out the other end of the pipe. Put the loop over the snakes head and pull tight. You can then use a shovel to kill it or just keep pulling and let the pipe's edge do the work.

Good luck!