Field Champion percentages

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Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:01 pm

Generally speaking how many trial dogs from the pointing breeds end up getting their Field Champion designation. A great friend of mine trials beagles and was complaining that every beagle with at least three legs and one nostril get its FC.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:53 pm

I doubt that is true about beagles, but I know it is difficult to make a field champion in the pointing breeds. I can't give you an exact percentage, but would guess less than 10% of the dogs entered in at least one trial go on to earn a title. I know of many dogs with 10 - 15 placements, a couple of the firsts, that never got the ten points. I owned two of them. Nice competitive dogs, just not nice enough.

The way the rules are set up, a dog has to take first against something like 38 dogs in three trials to get the title. That is not easy, particularly when 3 or 4 pros are there.

Thinking about it, the percentage might be higher as most will not run a dog that does not win. Perhaps I should have left it at - it is hard.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:00 pm

I am sure you are right about the beagles. My buddy was just unloading all types of issues that day and asked me because he knew I have GSPs.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:47 am

If you go to the AKC website and look under "Events" you'll find a subcategory "Events Statistics". It lists all the breeds and all the titles earned. The latest compilation is 2010, but maybe you can figure more recent numbers from the Gazette info there.
Kind of interesting, they list obedience, rally, agility games for all breeds ahead of the actual working titles apropos to various breeds. So keep scrolling down until you find them :?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:32 am

Neil/Hochkiss/Shags-

On an annual basis, Neil appears to be off by a factor of ten according to some educated guesses I made based on the AKC stats.

In 2013 there were a total of 416 trials run under AKC sanction.

In 2013 there were 160 Field Champion and 97 Amateur Field Champion titles awarded across ALL of the pointing breeds. A total of 257 champions named in 2013.

Assuming 50 dogs were entered in each of the 416 trials( a relatively low number actually) that yields 20,800 dogs competing for points.

257 /20,800 X 100 = 1.2%

The actual percentage is probably lower. So, No...it ain't all that easy.

RayG

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by cjhills » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:46 am

What stakes qualify for an AFC or FC? I would assume AA and Gun Dog and a point or two from puppy and derby. The trials I have attended had maybe ten or twelve dogs in AA and Gun Dog.
Not saying it us easy but it seems like a lot of dogs do it........................Cj

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:58 am

CJ,
A dog can earn two points from wins from puppy and derby stakes; a four-dog stake is one point, and eight dogs gives two points. If a dog wins a larger juvey stake, it doesn't matter, it only counts for two points.
In broke dog stakes, the point system is 4=1, 8=2, 13=3, 18=4, and 25=5. A second place in a 5 point stake yields one or two points, too.

A dog must have a major ( 3 points or more) stakes win, plus 7 other points garnered in whatever combo, to earn an FC.

It is not easy. A dog can win 10-11 dog stakes every weekend for its whole life and not earn an FC of it doesn't win a major.

My club just finished up an all breed trial and there were twenty-something dogs in the open and open limited stakes, with a not insignificant number of titled dogs entered. At times our trials have had national champions from 4 or 5 breeds entered. The competition is tough, and a win is never a gimme.

Brittanies have different set up than other breeds; the required points are the same but they must have majors from brittany trials.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:05 am

Ray,
If you have some free time, tally up the numbers of bench champions vs field champions in some of the breeds :o
I did it for one breed I was interested in, and it came out 300+ bench champions to 5or 6 field champions ( and that means FC and AFC combined).

Sporting breeds? Really?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:21 am

RayGubernat wrote:Neil/Hochkiss/Shags-

On an annual basis, Neil appears to be off by a factor of ten according to some educated guesses I made based on the AKC stats.

In 2013 there were a total of 416 trials run under AKC sanction.

In 2013 there were 160 Field Champion and 97 Amateur Field Champion titles awarded across ALL of the pointing breeds. A total of 257 champions named in 2013.

Assuming 50 dogs were entered in each of the 416 trials( a relatively low number actually) that yields 20,800 dogs competing for points.

257 /20,800 X 100 = 1.2%


If that is even close to being close, that is amazing! You don't get those like smilly faces in kindergarden.

The actual percentage is probably lower. So, No...it ain't all that easy.

RayG

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:23 am

Thanks Shags for giving some facts.

A important point he mentions is having to beat the dogs already titled. In some cases they are chasing dog of the year points, in others they are trying to qualify for their national championship, or they are being kept in competition shape, particularly if on a pro's string. Whatever the reason, often half the Field will be titled.

I will say in many breeds, with the advent of more hour stakes and the Grand Field Champion (or whatever it is called) there is not as much significance placed on the FC. It has become a step, not the destination.

The FDSB/AFTCA Champion and Runner-Up titles are extremely difficult to get, extremely.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:31 am

shags wrote:Ray,
If you have some free time, tally up the numbers of bench champions vs field champions in some of the breeds :o
I did it for one breed I was interested in, and it came out 300+ bench champions to 5or 6 field champions ( and that means FC and AFC combined).

Sporting breeds? Really?
Time for a Brittany brag, there have been 625+ Dual Champions (Field Champion and Show Champion, AFC does not count), many of the National All-Age Champions were duals. It becomes more significant when you consider the size limitations for the show.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:05 am

As described, I believe the percentages are probably low single digits. I suppose the question is what does that tell us? It is hard, and a great many dogs compete in juvenile stakes and never get the consistent training or conditioning to compete at the next level, those dogs pad the entries some. I just took a quick look at the last trial I was in and the placements and some 60% of the placing dogs in the broke stakes were titled, and perhaps a third of the field of entries. ½ of those entries were handled by professionals and at least one of those professionals isn’t giving a dog more than a spring or fall season on the string if it cannot compete. Even in open stakes of 20 dogs or less, you have to win to “finish” a dog and on most circuits there are four or five dogs in that stake that are exceptional, and most dogs aren’t likely to beat the 4 or 5. Competition is frustrating.

As this is the internet and we aren’t restricted on opinion I offer these thoughts to the subject as well; how and why you finish a dog is important. We should celebrate with the folks that stick out dozens and dozens of entries and many years to finish, that title is their reward (the titles never matter to the dog). That dog may appear the same on paper as a dog that wins a half dozen AKC stakes a year; and it probably isn’t. AF accounts for that by eliminating the point system and only awarding championships. A dog that wins multiple Championships is a special caliber of dog. Time of course doesn’t stand still and as it moves on the shape of the culture changes. I find that a large slice of the populous isn’t conditioned to the win/lose mentality as we have altered conditions to reward participation over achievement, I will not argue the effect that has on humans as this is a gun dog forum; but it shore ain’t good for finding or producing the best performance dog in the traditional sense.

…and why we finish a dog? I believe the very best compete to measure the dog and marvel at the performance of a special animal measured against a field of its true contemporaries. If ribbons, trophies, magazines, et al did not exist and they could find a way to put them down, run them and objectively judge them anyway, they would. That is not to say that there isn’t a frustrated high school athlete that was never quite given what he or she believes is their due campaigning loudly in the bird dog world. There are fist pumps, high fives and key board jockeys calling their shots to get attention…but they aren’t the real play when it comes to understanding performance dogs and how or why they are measured.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:24 am

I agree with Neil. If you pick your trials, with a decent dog you can finish an FC over a career. The GFC and AF CH title are totally different beasts, and the AFC title isn't easy because of the 2 win requirement. My pup has 17 1hr placements, and has finished in the top 10 in Brittany AA points in 3 of the last 4 years. She's finished in the top 20 4 years in a row, and shes still looking for that first AF Championship, and the GFC title. That's one reason people make such a big deal about 1hr trials, since they are tough to place in... The AFC title is tough as well since you need 2 wins in order to attain the AFC title. Ive been chasing that last point for the AFC for 3 years now, but my pup finished her FC before she was 2 1/2. IMO the FC is the easiest of the trial titles to win, and that isn't necessarily easy.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by cjhills » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:33 am

Chukar12 wrote:As described, I believe the percentages are probably low single digits. I suppose the question is what does that tell us? It is hard, and a great many dogs compete in juvenile stakes and never get the consistent training or conditioning to compete at the next level, those dogs pad the entries some. I just took a quick look at the last trial I was in and the placements and some 60% of the placing dogs in the broke stakes were titled, and perhaps a third of the field of entries. ½ of those entries were handled by professionals and at least one of those professionals isn’t giving a dog more than a spring or fall season on the string if it cannot compete. Even in open stakes of 20 dogs or less, you have to win to “finish” a dog and on most circuits there are four or five dogs in that stake that are exceptional, and most dogs aren’t likely to beat the 4 or 5. Competition is frustrating.

As this is the internet and we aren’t restricted on opinion I offer these thoughts to the subject as well; how and why you finish a dog is important. We should celebrate with the folks that stick out dozens and dozens of entries and many years to finish, that title is their reward (the titles never matter to the dog). That dog may appear the same on paper as a dog that wins a half dozen AKC stakes a year; and it probably isn’t. AF accounts for that by eliminating the point system and only awarding championships. A dog that wins multiple Championships is a special caliber of dog. Time of course doesn’t stand still and as it moves on the shape of the culture changes. I find that a large slice of the populous isn’t conditioned to the win/lose mentality as we have altered conditions to reward participation over achievement, I will not argue the effect that has on humans as this is a gun dog forum; but it shore ain’t good for finding or producing the best performance dog in the traditional sense.

…and why we finish a dog? I believe the very best compete to measure the dog and marvel at the performance of a special animal measured against a field of its true contemporaries. If ribbons, trophies, magazines, et al did not exist and they could find a way to put them down, run them and objectively judge them anyway, they would. That is not to say that there isn’t a frustrated high school athlete that was never quite given what he or she believes is their due campaigning loudly in the bird dog world. There are fist pumps, high fives and key board jockeys calling their shots to get attention…but they aren’t the real play when it comes to understanding performance dogs and how or why they are measured.
Finally somebody I understand. It just seems like I know a lot of people who have field champion dogs. That it is this difficult is a surprise to me.........Cj

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by deseeker » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:48 am

It isn't easy to get a field trial champion. My avatar dog(FC/AFC Candy's Lucky Penny SH) ran in trials from 1993 thru 1998(she only ran in adult stakes). Back in those days in open you only got points if you WON it(no points for 2nds in large stakes back then). I'm only picking stakes she ran in over 20 dogs. Here's how she did: 3rd-27 started-beat 24, 4th-40 started-beat 36, 2nd- 20 started-beat18, 3rd-21 started- beat 18, 4th-34 started-beat 30, 3rd-22 started- beat 19, 4th-40 started-beat 36. In those 7 trials she beat 181 dogs and did NOT get a single point towards her FC title--that's a lot of dogs she beat without getting a point :!: She did get her FC & AFC titles(37 adult placements-5 point win in 31 dog stake) but it sure wasn't easy :roll: :D FC percentages are probably single digets in my opinion.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:19 am

Neil wrote:The FDSB/AFTCA Champion and Runner-Up titles are extremely difficult to get, extremely.
How do these dogs reach Champion Status? Is it a point system also?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:42 am

ROTTnBRITT wrote:
Neil wrote:The FDSB/AFTCA Champion and Runner-Up titles are extremely difficult to get, extremely.
How do these dogs reach Champion Status? Is it a point system also?
You win a AF Championship trial. Not easy to do, especially when you look at the size of many of these trials. The ABC Pheasant, Chicken, and Quail Championships typically draw well over 50 entries, and have been as high as 80-90 entry's. AF only crowns an CH and RuCh. That's why you see titles such as 5xAFCH/3xRUCh in dogs names.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:52 am

In most of the AF championships you have to have won a "qualifying stake" and present a win certificate to enter. In some of the dual sanctioned breed club stakes you run in them and can have the AKC win but not be awarded the AF/AFTCA Championship status

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:59 am

shags wrote:Ray,
If you have some free time, tally up the numbers of bench champions vs field champions in some of the breeds :o
I did it for one breed I was interested in, and it came out 300+ bench champions to 5or 6 field champions ( and that means FC and AFC combined).

Sporting breeds? Really?
What would the number of bench champions have to do with being a sporting breed? Dogs either fit their standard or don't and owners either show their dogs or don't. Probably there are more sporting dogs than most others since they still can pursue their role in life while many others can't or don't even have one other than being a lap dog. I would bet there are more young active breeders and owners of sporting breeds which says they would be more apt to get out and do things with their dogs.

Ezzy

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:09 pm

ROTTnBRITT wrote:
Neil wrote:The FDSB/AFTCA Champion and Runner-Up titles are extremely difficult to get, extremely.
How do these dogs reach Champion Status? Is it a point system also?
No.

To win a championship in the American Field the dog must run in a championship stake, which is a minimum of one hour long(some are longer). These are head to head stakes, with the winner being awarded championship status. It istypical for a championship stake to have 30 or more entries and it is not uncommon for a stake to have 40 or 50 entries. It is also not uncommon to have ten or more dogs competing in the stake that have already achieved champion status. So... more often than not... the dog that wins, has to beat several dogs that are already champions.

Open championships have a cash purse associated with them, typically 50% of the total entry fee, split 70-30 between the winner and the RU. it is not uncommon for cash purses to reach several thousand dollars, so the competition in these stakes is generally incredibly intense and the performances delivered are almost always of the highest caliber. Absolutely BRUTALLY competitive stakes.

In my opinion, it is much more difficult for a dog to achieve open championship status than it is to achieve any other pointing dog title, with the possible exception of AKC grand championship status.


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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:17 pm

jetjockey wrote:I agree with Neil. If you pick your trials, with a decent dog you can finish an FC over a career. The GFC and AF CH title are totally different beasts, and the AFC title isn't easy because of the 2 win requirement. My pup has 17 1hr placements, and has finished in the top 10 in Brittany AA points in 3 of the last 4 years. She's finished in the top 20 4 years in a row, and shes still looking for that first AF Championship, and the GFC title. That's one reason people make such a big deal about 1hr trials, since they are tough to place in... The AFC title is tough as well since you need 2 wins in order to attain the AFC title. Ive been chasing that last point for the AFC for 3 years now, but my pup finished her FC before she was 2 1/2. IMO the FC is the easiest of the trial titles to win, and that isn't necessarily easy.
I sure agree that the AFC is very hard to attain, and I guess you mean 2 adult wins plus Am Puppy/Derby points. In many areas they are not offered, only Open.


AMATEUR FIELD CHAMPIONSHIP

At present, a dog of one of the Pointing Breeds will be recorded an Amateur Field Champion after having won 10 points under the point rating schedule below in regular Amateur Stakes in at least 3 licensed or member field trials, provided that no more than 2 points each have been won by placing first in Amateur Walking Puppy and Amateur Walking Derby stakes and that it has been awarded 2 first placements, one of which must be a first placement in a 3 point or better Amateur All-Age or Amateur Gun Dog.
Because of the 4 Open Puppy/Derby points and 4 Amateur adult points counting, it is possible (although very rare) to get a FC with only one 4 point adult Open first. In practice the FC is still the most prestigious.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:23 pm

FIELD CHAMPIONSHIP

At present a dog of one of the Pointing Breeds will be recorded a Field Champion after having won 10 points under the point rating schedule below in regular stakes in at least three licensed or member field trials, provided that 3 points have been won in one 3 point or better Open All-Age, Open Gun Dog, Open Limited All-Age, or Open Limited Gun Dog Stake, that no more than 2 points each have been won in Puppy and Derby Stakes, and that no more than 4 of the 10 points have been won by placing first in Amateur All-Age or Gun Dog.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:59 pm

Neil wrote:
jetjockey wrote:I agree with Neil. If you pick your trials, with a decent dog you can finish an FC over a career. The GFC and AF CH title are totally different beasts, and the AFC title isn't easy because of the 2 win requirement. My pup has 17 1hr placements, and has finished in the top 10 in Brittany AA points in 3 of the last 4 years. She's finished in the top 20 4 years in a row, and shes still looking for that first AF Championship, and the GFC title. That's one reason people make such a big deal about 1hr trials, since they are tough to place in... The AFC title is tough as well since you need 2 wins in order to attain the AFC title. Ive been chasing that last point for the AFC for 3 years now, but my pup finished her FC before she was 2 1/2. IMO the FC is the easiest of the trial titles to win, and that isn't necessarily easy.
I sure agree that the AFC is very hard to attain, and I guess you mean 2 adult wins plus Am Puppy/Derby points. In many areas they are not offered, only Open.


AMATEUR FIELD CHAMPIONSHIP

At present, a dog of one of the Pointing Breeds will be recorded an Amateur Field Champion after having won 10 points under the point rating schedule below in regular Amateur Stakes in at least 3 licensed or member field trials, provided that no more than 2 points each have been won by placing first in Amateur Walking Puppy and Amateur Walking Derby stakes and that it has been awarded 2 first placements, one of which must be a first placement in a 3 point or better Amateur All-Age or Amateur Gun Dog.
Because of the 4 Open Puppy/Derby points and 4 Amateur adult points counting, it is possible (although very rare) to get a FC with only one 4 point adult Open first. In practice the FC is still the most prestigious.
You are correct. I never really count the juvenile placements, even though I know they can be used.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
shags wrote:Ray,
If you have some free time, tally up the numbers of bench champions vs field champions in some of the breeds :o
I did it for one breed I was interested in, and it came out 300+ bench champions to 5or 6 field champions ( and that means FC and AFC combined).

Sporting breeds? Really?
What would the number of bench champions have to do with being a sporting breed? Dogs either fit their standard or don't and owners either show their dogs or don't. Probably there are more sporting dogs than most others since they still can pursue their role in life while many others can't or don't even have one other than being a lap dog. I would bet there are more young active breeders and owners of sporting breeds which says they would be more apt to get out and do things with their dogs.

Ezzy
Well, Ezzy, if a pointing breed racks up 300+ bench champions in a year, as opposed to 5 or 6 field champions, that kinda gives me a clue that more dogs are lying around growing hair than there are getting their hair torn off in the field. Take a look at the stats on the setter breeds for example. I don't care what anyone chooses to do with their dogs, but to me it's sad that sporting breeds are not more involved in field events.

Further, again using the setter breeds as an example, why do the most successful field dogs closely resemble their ancestors of 25, 50, 100 years ago, while the bench dogs' standard has changed multiple times over the years, so that they are caricatures of of what the breeds once were? The bench is not the be-all end-all; performance should be the priority in the standard. Hit a trial with dual type setters of any of the four setter breeds and compare their gaits to the gaits of performance bred dogs. That alone should tell you something.

I'm leaving Brittanies out the equation, because they have their own thing going. In my area we rarely see them in all breed competition, and their trials are mostly closed, so i'll have to plead ignorance on the ins and outs there.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:38 pm

[

To win a championship in the American Field the dog must run in a championship stake, which is a minimum of one hour long(some are longer). These are head to head stakes, with the winner being awarded championship status. It istypical for a championship stake to have 30 or more entries and it is not uncommon for a stake to have 40 or 50 entries. It is also not uncommon to have ten or more dogs competing in the stake that have already achieved champion status. So... more often than not... the dog that wins, has to beat several dogs that are already champions.

Open championships have a cash purse associated with them, typically 50% of the total entry fee, split 70-30 between the winner and the RU. it is not uncommon for cash purses to reach several thousand dollars, so the competition in these stakes is generally incredibly intense and the performances delivered are almost always of the highest caliber. Absolutely BRUTALLY competitive stakes.

In my opinion, it is much more difficult for a dog to achieve open championship status than it is to achieve any other pointing dog title, with the possible exception of AKC grand championship status.


RayG[/quote]


This almost makes it clear to me and I really really appreciate taking the time to educate us. Let me take a shot at some questions:
1. American Field is not affiliated with AKC correct or incorrect? Is the only requirement that the trial be sanctioned by American FIeld and the brace has to be one hour in length?
2. I am not sure what an OPEN championship is. Is it AKC or AF? If a dog wins, what designation does it receive?
3. What is the AKC GRAND CHAMPIONSHIP STATUS?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:08 pm

To a very high degree virtually every functional dog breed; sporting, working and terriers has split. To date the Brittany has avoided the dramatic separation, if it hopes to continue to do so, we in the breed club have to ask what has happened elsewhere to split the breed and how do we avoid it in our club? The path and model of separation has been crafted and is functional to copy and follow so the risk is high. Ban Dee was whelped 9/26/1966; almost 50 years ago. Competition has changed since that time, on the bench and in the field. To avoid separation, form must follow function and not vice versa. The science of DNA will allow us to police type over time, whether that is good for the breed or restrictive remains to be seen, but it will bring credibility to competitive metrics eventually. Strategically we need to determine what is acceptable in breed standard as it may be dynamic due to nutrition, environment or selective breeding for function. I wouldn't suggest that standards be forgotten or even loosened but they must remain dynamic and the agent for their change should be functional purpose and evolution.

As a side note: I do believe that we should breed for extremities in function to avoid drag on the breed. However, I don't necessarily believe that function or purpose can only be measured in a single competitive venue though my experience tells me that most skill sets are trainable if you can in some way measure the depth of the drive and pointing dog characteristics of the animal.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:17 pm

AKC and Af are separate sanctioning bodies. There is also AFTCA, which is an amateur organization under the umbrella of AF ( FDSB). They respect each others registries, and allow cross registering of dogs with the exception of Irish Setters. They do not recognize each others CH titles.

AF championships are at least an hour in length per brace, and have requirements as to the minimum number of dogs required to maintain Chship status I think it's 13. AKC sanctioned CH and regular trials can also be sanctioned by AF (FDSB).
AKC requires that the trial-giving club follow their rules if the trial is dual sanctioned.

An open CH means both pros and amateurs can compete. In AFTCA or in AKC Amateur Championships, only amateurs can run dogs. IDK about AF, but in AKC amateur stakes, a pro can ride in the gallery but cannot function as a scout.

AKC Grand Ch is similar to their regular FC, except the stakes are an hour long, as opposed to the usual 30 minutes stakes.
It's a difficult task for a dog to go 8alls to the wall for an hour, so to achieve this title is something special.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:40 pm

Chukar12 wrote:To a very high degree virtually every functional dog breed; sporting, working and terriers has split. To date the Brittany has avoided the dramatic separation, if it hopes to continue to do so, we in the breed club have to ask what has happened elsewhere to split the breed and how do we avoid it in our club? The path and model of separation has been crafted and is functional to copy and follow so the risk is high. Ban Dee was whelped 9/26/1966; almost 50 years ago. Competition has changed since that time, on the bench and in the field. To avoid separation, form must follow function and not vice versa. The science of DNA will allow us to police type over time, whether that is good for the breed or restrictive remains to be seen, but it will bring credibility to competitive metrics eventually. Strategically we need to determine what is acceptable in breed standard as it may be dynamic due to nutrition, environment or selective breeding for function. I wouldn't suggest that standards be forgotten or even loosened but they must remain dynamic and the agent for their change should be functional purpose and evolution.

As a side note: I do believe that we should breed for extremities in function to avoid drag on the breed. However, I don't necessarily believe that function or purpose can only be measured in a single competitive venue though my experience tells me that most skill sets are trainable if you can in some way measure the depth of the drive and pointing dog characteristics of the animal.

Why or how has the Brittany avoided separation. I started hunting with a friend's Brittany then enjoyed a friend's English setters and now have my GSPs. I really liked them all to be honest.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:45 pm

An open CH means both pros and amateurs can compete. I know guys who have pros handle there dogs most of the time and from surfing the web I know some pretty darn good amateurs have pros handle their dogs at national stakes. If a dog has all of his FC points from open stakes is the FC designated differently? Why do really good amateurs have pros handle their dogs in bigger events?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:07 pm

FC = (Open) Field Champion. Four points from amateur stakes can go toward the FC
AFC = Amateur Field Champion. Only amateur wins count toward it.

A dog that has attained both titles is FC/AFC So-and-So

An amateur who is otherwise fairly competent might have a pro handle his dog in a stake for a variety of reasons. First, the pro is traveling to a CH that the amateur may not be able to attend. Or, perhaps the amateur is not experienced in hour stakes, and doesn't know how to pace his dog. There are tricks of the trade that help dogs out, a lot. Or, maybe the pro is very familiar with the grounds while the amateur isn't. It gives the dog a better chamce if his handler knows the grounds.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:12 pm

The American Brittany Club has had a stated purpose to maintain the duality of the dog and has had leadership that kept a reasonable balance by supporting that purpose in their governance. It will forever be a challenge to maintain that purpose especially as times change with a culture that gets further from field functions. Dues paying members that have little or no interest in hard core field performance and covet other venues, purposes and attributes could shape a change, that is what happened with Setters, Border Collies, Pointers, so on and so forth...again thus far the leadership and most active members and breeders have avoided the split.

In regard to why do pros handle amateur dogs? I can answer that from a personal perspective and I have a couple of reasons for doing it when I do. In the first case, though I develop my own dogs, I cannot compete in all venues I would like the dogs to at this point in my life and if I tried, I fear the revenue stream to compete might get a touch thin. In another case, I often have Paul Doiron handle a dog I own named Sonny, especially at the national championship. Sonny is very tough, secure and driven...he is going to go with who is in front, my being on the grounds is of little concern to him if Paul has the whistle. Paul is more experienced than I and I trust him as a handler, he is also a few years older; I frame it to him this way, "you are a better handler and i am a better scout" I will ride a little harder than he might, and I feel that combination gives us the best odds to show the dog in his best performance.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:52 pm

Sonny has proven the combination works.

As to the dual, my concern is not with the show people, but with the field people not following the standard, particularly when it comes to height.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:11 pm

shags wrote:FC = (Open) Field Champion. Four points from amateur stakes can go toward the FC
AFC = Amateur Field Champion. Only amateur wins count toward it.

A dog that has attained both titles is FC/AFC So-and-So

An amateur who is otherwise fairly competent might have a pro handle his dog in a stake for a variety of reasons. First, the pro is traveling to a CH that the amateur may not be able to attend. Or, perhaps the amateur is not experienced in hour stakes, and doesn't know how to pace his dog. There are tricks of the trade that help dogs out, a lot. Or, maybe the pro is very familiar with the grounds while the amateur isn't. It gives the dog a better chamce if his handler knows the grounds.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you answering my questions. I have been to 5-10 trials but quit going because no one seemed to want to help anyone learn. What types of tricks might a pro use in an hour long stake never thought about pace but I guess you would want to pace even the best conditioned AA dogs.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:15 pm

Neil, is your concern for Brittanies only, or all pointing breeds across the board?
Because in some other breed(s), some bench stock is huge, and the standards have been changed to reflect that trend. Not so long ago 80 pound male Irish setters were common. IDK if they still are, but some are still pretty large. My 65 pound field bred setter looks like Marmaduke compared to my other average sized dogs, yet he is dwarfed by some from 'the other side'.

A person I know who is into dual GWPs told me that bigger is better for the group ring. So bench folks have reasons for what they have too. And even brits aren't immune...witness the various tricks with wickets. Would those be dual types bred for field but trying to fit into the standard for the ring? Just curious...

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:22 pm

Hotchkiss wrote:
shags wrote:FC = (Open) Field Champion. Four points from amateur stakes can go toward the FC
AFC = Amateur Field Champion. Only amateur wins count toward it.

A dog that has attained both titles is FC/AFC So-and-So

An amateur who is otherwise fairly competent might have a pro handle his dog in a stake for a variety of reasons. First, the pro is traveling to a CH that the amateur may not be able to attend. Or, perhaps the amateur is not experienced in hour stakes, and doesn't know how to pace his dog. There are tricks of the trade that help dogs out, a lot. Or, maybe the pro is very familiar with the grounds while the amateur isn't. It gives the dog a better chamce if his handler knows the grounds.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you answering my questions. I have been to 5-10 trials but quit going because no one seemed to want to help anyone learn. What types of tricks might a pro use in an hour long stake never thought about pace but I guess you would want to pace even the best conditioned AA dogs.
How to give the dog a breather without looking like he's giving the dog a breather; where to send the dog for an impressive cast; when to push and when to sit back...it's all about making the dog look good and pros know when and how to showcase a dog.

(I don't know where you are or what kind of trials you've been to, but those folks need to pull their heads out. Over here, we love newbies! Especially ones that are eager to learn.)

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:32 pm

Shags,

Should have been clearer, I was speaking only about the Brittany. There is not much you can do with the wicket to make a 20 and 1/2" dog enough bigger to make a difference. Some try to finish them in the ring before they are fully grown.

But you are right, it is a problem not shared by the other breeds.

I tried to get the ABC to consider modern nutrition and genetics, and add an inch, I tried hard with the right people. They correctly told me I was dead wrong. Get an inch now, then a few years later another, then another and you no longer have a Brittany. They were right and I was wrong.

Neil

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:45 pm

Neil wrote:Shags,

Should have been clearer, I was speaking only about the Brittany. There is not much you can do with the wicket to make a 20 and 1/2" dog enough bigger to make a difference. Some try to finish them in the ring before they are fully grown.

But you are right, it is a problem not shared by the other breeds.

I tried to get the ABC to consider modern nutrition and genetics, and add an inch, I tried hard with the right people. They correctly told me I was dead wrong. Get an inch now, then a few years later another, then another and you no longer have a Brittany. They were right and I was wrong.

Neil
I know it is not popular but I think people have to gt away from the idea of form following function as an excuse to change the looks of most any breed of an animal. Look today at our domestic livestock where we have many many completely different type of animals within the specie such as cows, horses, hogs, and chickens. And they all perform differently but are all valuable. Same needs to be true within our sporting dogs and there is no reason to have 20 breeds that all look and perform the same. The form is set and we need to breed for the best dog that conforms to the breed standard and the original purpose of the breed.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:51 pm

I'm not sure there is much need in today's world for peasant dogs built to steal the Kings chickens, since that is the original purpose of the Brittany breed. So, do we continue to breed dogs for a style of hunting that no longer exists, or adapt to the times?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:04 am

jetjockey wrote:I'm not sure there is much need in today's world for peasant dogs built to steal the Kings chickens, since that is the original purpose of the Brittany breed. So, do we continue to breed dogs for a style of hunting that no longer exists, or adapt to the times?
The answer might lie in the fact that the French Britt seems to be quite popular with the hunting crowd, which in my mind is still the purpose and people that determine how dogs are bred.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by SCT » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:18 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Neil wrote:Shags,

Should have been clearer, I was speaking only about the Brittany. There is not much you can do with the wicket to make a 20 and 1/2" dog enough bigger to make a difference. Some try to finish them in the ring before they are fully grown.

But you are right, it is a problem not shared by the other breeds.

I tried to get the ABC to consider modern nutrition and genetics, and add an inch, I tried hard with the right people. They correctly told me I was dead wrong. Get an inch now, then a few years later another, then another and you no longer have a Brittany. They were right and I was wrong.

Neil
I know it is not popular but I think people have to gt away from the idea of form following function as an excuse to change the looks of most any breed of an animal. Look today at our domestic livestock where we have many many completely different type of animals within the specie such as cows, horses, hogs, and chickens. And they all perform differently but are all valuable. Same needs to be true within our sporting dogs and there is no reason to have 20 breeds that all look and perform the same. The form is set and we need to breed for the best dog that conforms to the breed standard and the original purpose of the breed.
Ezzy, it's not popular because form following function is so important to the competitive animal, dogs, and horses, that the desired traits will change for the worst without it, ergo bench form, for breeds other than brittany's. Form following function, IMO, is absolute, and not something to get away from. Only in very general terms could form following function be disregarded. Each competitive venue requires a very clear "form". That's one of the reasons most trials are best suited to certain breeds, and even lines of breeding within the breed! Just my opinion. Many, many more traits are as important for competitive dogs, not so much with show dogs.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:
jetjockey wrote:I'm not sure there is much need in today's world for peasant dogs built to steal the Kings chickens, since that is the original purpose of the Brittany breed. So, do we continue to breed dogs for a style of hunting that no longer exists, or adapt to the times?
The answer might lie in the fact that the French Britt seems to be quite popular with the hunting crowd, which in my mind is still the purpose and people that determine how dogs are bred.
The problem occurs when you take a close working French Brit and put it into big territory with few birds. IMO, that's one reason we have separated the French Brit from the American Brit. American Brits are bred much more for American style of bird hunting, which often requires a big runing dog to cover lots of ground. So, we have already altered the breed from what they were originally bred for.. But I say why limit the dogs? Why can't we have a dog that runs big in open country and trials, tightens up in heavy cover, retrieves like mad, and is calm enough to sit in a duck blind? Why can't we have it all in a bird dog? IMO, that's what we should be breeding for. We should be breeding to better the breed, and that includes dogs who are better at trialing, retrieving, hunting, etc... And like others have said, form does follow function. Besides, Brits will ALWAYS look like s cross between a setter, pointer, and spaniel, because that's exactly what they are.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:59 am

Much of the hunting style of a dog is just not genetics; but intelligence, desire, and training. I helped a friend, Ken Blackman, develop his French Brittany, Tank and watched him become an All-Age Field Champion and compete at the highest level. Saw him have 3 finds in 15 minutes at the Ames Plantation against pointers and setters. He did not win, but National Champion handler, Gary Lester took notice.

The good ones adapt.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:12 am

I dug around the AKC site and found a few things of interest;

From 1980 to 2006 there were 1,998 Field Champion Brittanies, an average of 76 a year. And only 1,043 Amateur Field Champions.

In the same period, all pointing breeds had a total of 5,500 Field Champions, an average of 211 a year.

But could not find the total of dogs entered, AKC just says tens of thousands are entered each year.

So I was not much help, but tried.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:23 am

Neil,
Try looking up the number of each breed registered for the year, too. Might could give an idea of percentages.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:49 am

shags wrote:Neil,
Try looking up the number of each breed registered for the year, too. Might could give an idea of percentages.
But would you not have to know the number that are trialed?

I am sure AKC could give us the total number of entries in a year, but I don't think there is anyway to know the number of individual dogs. As some are entered in 2 or 3 stakes in the same trial. And even then, a dog may have an 8 year career. I am stumped.

The 211 FC s a year is higher than I guessed.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:27 am

Hmmm....
Well here is a thought.
The AKC results sheets that are turned in for each stake have a spot where the entries for that stake are broken down by breed. So probably AKC has those stats somewhere. Given, for a trial a dog may be entered in multiple stakes but you'd be closer to what you want. If I get some time here I will look around and see if I can find that information.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:32 am

Neil wrote:
shags wrote:Neil,
Try looking up the number of each breed registered for the year, too. Might could give an idea of percentages.
But would you not have to know the number that are trialed?

I am sure AKC could give us the total number of entries in a year, but I don't think there is anyway to know the number of individual dogs. As some are entered in 2 or 3 stakes in the same trial. And even then, a dog may have an 8 year career. I am stumped.

The 211 FC s a year is higher than I guessed.

I am still reading and watching, but your are at the point I was with the first post on this issue that had the percentage around 1 percent. You really need to know the number of different dogs that are entered in a trial per year to figure out how many trial dogs become FC's. You may award FC status to 200 pointers in a year and conclude there were 2000 entries that year, but so many of those dogs would be entered in multiple classes at the same trial, and so many of those dogs are the same dogs that are entered in the next trial within that dog's home region the following week or two.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:23 pm

I emailed AKC and from the link they sent, here are some numbers. I had to do some quick math so might be off a bit...the link is below if anyone cares to figure it out for themselves.

Dogs entered in pointing breed FT 2014 - 28,638
Dogs earning FC 147 ( the total includes retreivers and spaniels, so I quick did the math, may
a bubble off)
" " AFC 82 "

Dogs entered includes multiple entries of the same individual. Also, titled dogs which continue to compete. Even if half the total is those dogs, the percentages of titles vs entries is FC 0.01% and AFC 0.006% ( approx)

http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/2014An ... istics.pdf

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:33 pm

shags wrote:I emailed AKC and from the link they sent, here are some numbers. I had to do some quick math so might be off a bit...the link is below if anyone cares to figure it out for themselves.

Dogs entered in pointing breed FT 2014 - 28,638
Dogs earning FC 147 ( the total includes retreivers and spaniels, so I quick did the math, may
a bubble off)
" " AFC 82 "

Dogs entered includes multiple entries of the same individual. Also, titled dogs which continue to compete. Even if half the total is those dogs, the percentages of titles vs entries is FC 0.01% and AFC 0.006% ( approx)

http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/2014An ... istics.pdf

That is amazing!

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:46 pm

Shags,

Thank you so very much. This is very interesting. We all owe you.

To Others,

I found page 243 of most interest, Total FC/GFC/AFC by Breed. Great stuff.

Again thanks to Shags, he is a man of action.

Neil

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