Field Champion percentages

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:49 pm

LOL Neil, he is a she :lol:

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:41 pm

Snags,

I should have known a guy would never be so kind and diligent.

Sorry, the thanks is sincere.

I can't understand why the numbers I got from the AKC site were so far off, the ones you got are more reasonable.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jimbo&rooster » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:52 pm

It's a numbers game. Many of those 20k dogs are dogs that might run 20 stakes a year, I am a firm believer that if you have a broke dog and run it enough times FC or AFC is more a "when than If". Now this is assuming you are talking AKC, which more often than not is a celebration of mediocrity. AF stakes are a little different since to be named a CH you have to win a CH stake. I have seen A lot of NICE FC and AFC dogs, but for every real good one I see I see 2 that slipped through the system collecting points.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:05 pm

I think you are trying to have it both ways. Trials are great because they are competitive and you have to beat another dog and not just run against a standard. But then the complaint a dog snug by since it beat the other dog but didn't perform as well as the standard says they should. You will have to convince me it is harder to win one trial than to place in several with one needing to be a win or second in a very large trial. The old saying I heard many times in years past is every dog has one good run in him and it may be true.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:30 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:It's a numbers game. Many of those 20k dogs are dogs that might run 20 stakes a year, I am a firm believer that if you have a broke dog and run it enough times FC or AFC is more a "when than If". Now this is assuming you are talking AKC, which more often than not is a celebration of mediocrity. AF stakes are a little different since to be named a CH you have to win a CH stake. I have seen A lot of NICE FC and AFC dogs, but for every real good one I see I see 2 that slipped through the system collecting points.
I have judged a good many trials and I have not seen the mediocrity you spoke of when compared to the general hunting dog population, particularly in horseback stake. I judged a 40 dog stake and the poorest performance I witnessed still would have made many weakened hunters happy.

I hear about 5 or 6 dog stakes where the best of the worst gets the nod, but when you have 2 - 5 pros attend that is not going to happen. Were it to the rules require the placements be withheld. There is a minimum performance standard that is in place to prevent sub-par dogs from achieving a title. And at some point the dog must take first in a 13 dog stake and it is highly unlikely they will all simultaneously have a bad day.

The system of AKC titles is well planned and executed. Nearly all the complaints are from people that have never placed in a trial, let alone attained a title.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by shags » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:32 am

One man's mediocre is another's outstanding. In AKC trials there is some leeway as to range and style so a shorter busier dog can be as successful as a big running objective going dog, depending on the preferences of the judges on any particular day. Likewise, style preferences can vary. So just because some of us prefer one type over the other, does not make the less preferred mediocre to all. The dogs still must do the work to win. And they must show consistency to win several times.

Any dog can shine on any given day. And any dog can look like carp on any given day. Peoples' opinions are what they are concerning a dog's performance - the greatest FDSB all-age CH will be considered sub par by someone; just as a FC titled from restricted stakes will also be considered less than. Conversely, each of those will be most highly regarded by others. It's in the eye of the beholder.

If attaining an FC/AFC were just a numbers game, all dogs would be titled eventually, and clearly by the numbers that is not true. Most of us who have competed over a number of years have seen a dog or two slip through the cracks and title. Most of us know of some 10 or 11 year old dog being run in hopes of getting his last point or two. But those are few and far between.

I suspect most of those who scoff at the titles fall into two categories - the first would be those who have not made the effort yet assure themselves that their dog is just as good and could win if he cared to compete; the second is the lucky person whose first dog is a world beater and titles easily, and who never learned that wins don't usually come easily, and who adopt a "yeah, but" attitude when subsequent dogs fail to perform as the first.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:22 am

[
If attaining an FC/AFC were just a numbers game, all dogs would be titled eventually, and clearly by the numbers that is not true. Most of us who have competed over a number of years have seen a dog or two slip through the cracks and title. Most of us know of some 10 or 11 year old dog being run in hopes of getting his last point or two. But those are few and far between.

It is really hard to dispute the statement above. I do think the open classes are much tougher based upon my limited 5-10 times at a trial. I also saw pros picking and choosing what dogs they run. I know for a fact that some of them do not run their best dogs in the weekend open classes. Those dogs seemed to be saved for much larger stakes. I do not know what everyone's thoughts on that are, but if they ran their best dogs all the time it would be even that much tougher for a dog to be a FC.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:35 am

That's one reason some people look at the AF CH as a much better bar for judging a dogs accomplishments, than just an FC title. I wouldn't be surprised if that's one reason the AKC came out with the GFC title as well. I know lots of dogs that don't run weekend trials once they achieve the FC title, and are only entered in 1hr stakes after that. You don't see those dogs on the weekend.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:26 pm

Pro's do not pick and choose the dogs that run a stake. They run the dogs their clients pay them to run.

Jim

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:59 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:Pro's do not pick and choose the dogs that run a stake. They run the dogs their clients pay them to run.

Jim
That is true...to some extent.

In AF trials, it is rather unusual for a dog that is running and winning in hour stakes to run them in half hour weekend stakes. Why take a chance running a high dollar dog in a meaningless event. Anytime you turn a big running dog loose, bad things can happen, and that is doubly true on the often relatively tight grounds that usually are used for half hour stakes.

From my limited experience with AKC trials, it seems that it is relatively rare for a dog that has achieved FC status to continue to be run in open events and also relatively rare for a AFC dog to run in amateur events. Most folks seem to be content and willing to let other dog "have their turn". It is fairly common for an amateur owner to run their FC dog in amateur events in order to put an AFC on the dog.

Perhaps that is part of what the Grands are all about. To give owners of finished dogs something more to do with their champions. Since the Grand events are hour stakes, that is a whole "nuther level of effort.

FWIW, you cannot believe how LONG an hour is when you are used to running for a half hour or just how much dog you have to have. It is almost a whole different world.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:03 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:Pro's do not pick and choose the dogs that run a stake. They run the dogs their clients pay them to run.

Jim

Yes if the client asks them to they will, but I am fairly close to some folks who use a pro. They OFTEN chose to not run a FC dog in a weekend stake.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:24 pm

I do know some AKC breeds have an understanding to not run a FC/AFC in weekend 30 minute stakes (they do often continue with limited stakes); but I know for a fact that is not the case with Brittany trials. They have to qualify for the Nationals each year, and even after they qualify they continue to run them to keep them sharp, not laying up on the truck.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:42 pm

Neil wrote:I do know some AKC breeds have an understanding to not run a FC/AFC in weekend 30 minute stakes (they do often continue with limited stakes); but I know for a fact that is not the case with Brittany trials. They have to qualify for the Nationals each year, and even after they qualify they continue to run them to keep them sharp, not laying up on the truck.
I know a bunch of Brits that don't run weekend trials, and only run 1hr stakes.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:55 pm

jetjockey wrote:
Neil wrote:I do know some AKC breeds have an understanding to not run a FC/AFC in weekend 30 minute stakes (they do often continue with limited stakes); but I know for a fact that is not the case with Brittany trials. They have to qualify for the Nationals each year, and even after they qualify they continue to run them to keep them sharp, not laying up on the truck.
I know a bunch of Brits that don't run weekend trials, and only run 1hr stakes.
Of that bunch would you please name a couple or three? Or perhaps the pros? I went to my first Brittany trial in 1968, and I don't know a single pro that just runs hour stakes, and if they are all running weekend trials the dogs would just be sitting on the stake out. And they have to qualify for the National each year.

I have judged Tom Tracy's entire All-Age string in a 30 minute stake. Even when Chug was winning all those 1 he stakes, Jerry, an amateur, still ran in a few 30 minute stakes, he is the closest, but he is hardly a bunch.

I may make mistakes, but I try not to spread untruths, and you the same as said I was lying.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:15 pm

I didn't call you a liar, I said you are mistaken. Calling you a liar would imply I believed you knew the truth and purposely didnt tell it. My dog, which is one of several on its string just like it, hasn't been handled by her Pro in a weekend trial in over 4 years. Those dog may occasionally get run in weekend trials by there owners, but that's it. So I know for a fact that there are Brits that never see weekend Open trials.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:33 pm

jetjockey wrote:I didn't call you a liar, I said you are mistaken. Calling you a liar would imply I believed you knew the truth and purposely didnt tell it. My dog, which is one of several on its string just like it, hasn't been handled by her Pro in a weekend trial in over 4 years. Those dog may occasionally get run in weekend trials by there owners, but that's it. So I know for a fact that there are Brits that never see weekend Open trials.
You said a bunch, one trainer's fairly recent change hardly changes my position.

You seem to be arguing it is easy to title a Brittany, please share how many you have titled. It is easy enough to write a check.

Do you have a point or are you just arguing to argue?

Neil Mace

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:03 pm

jetjockey wrote:I agree with Neil. If you pick your trials, with a decent dog you can finish an FC over a career. The GFC and AF CH title are totally different beasts, and the AFC title isn't easy because of the 2 win requirement. My pup has 17 1hr placements, and has finished in the top 10 in Brittany AA points in 3 of the last 4 years. She's finished in the top 20 4 years in a row, and shes still looking for that first AF Championship, and the GFC title. That's one reason people make such a big deal about 1hr trials, since they are tough to place in... The AFC title is tough as well since you need 2 wins in order to attain the AFC title. Ive been chasing that last point for the AFC for 3 years now, but my pup finished her FC before she was 2 1/2. IMO the FC is the easiest of the trial titles to win, and that isn't necessarily easy.
I believe that is exactly what I said. I also believe that roughly 20% of the top dogs in Purina points standings, can be considered a bunch. Please state where I said it was "easy"! Easiest and "easy" are two different things. And yes, there are Brits that only run 1hr trials, just like I said, and it's not that "recent" of a change.

The FC is the easiest of all the titles to obtain, and that isn't necessarily "easy" just like I said before. If you have a decent dog, pick your trials, and run the dog enough times, you have a decent chance of obtaining an FC title running 30 minute weekend trials. The GFC title and the AFCH are totally different beasts, because they draw all the top competition. So yes, there are many weekend trials where some of the best dogs are sitting on the sidelines not competing, even in the Brittany world. Maybe especially in the Brittany world, since it makes no sense to run your top dogs in weekend trials that are qualified, against dogs your trying to get qualified.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:20 pm

Jet,

You did not answer how many dogs you have personally handled to a field championship? Since you don't use your name, we have no way of knowing if you speak from experience or bitterness.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:46 pm

Neil wrote:Jet,

You did not answer how many dogs you have personally handled to a field championship? Since you don't use your name, we have no way of knowing if you speak from experience or bitterness.
Zero, like I said earlier, still looking for those points. Why would I be bitter?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:00 pm

Thank you.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:09 pm

Neil wrote:Thank you.
What's your point? How many have you finished? How many NFC's, NAFC's, AA dogs if the year, etc. I don't care about the titles. I do this for fun, and could care less about titles. I've placed my dog in 50% of the trials Ive run her in, 75% of the 1 hour trials, and I suck as a handler, can you say that?

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:17 pm

I have titled 11, and I can say, I also suck as a handler. And I have over 50 years experience.

Don't you think with a 75% success rate you are disproving it is easy?

Enough.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:31 pm

Neil wrote:I have titled 11, and I can say, I also suck as a handler. And I have over 50 years experience.

Don't you think with a 75% success rate you are disproving it is easy?

Enough.
Nope. I already said that I believe the AFC title is harder to obtain than the FC. Besides, I've had the joy to run against some of the best Amateur handlers, and best Brits in the country. Got my butt kicked by them as well. I haven't exactly picked easy trials to run in either. I don't believe I have run an Amateur trial yet that there wasn't at least 1 NFC in the stake, with a handler who has also won Nationals. The fact that I have placed at all amazes me. If I could run in more than 2 or 3 trials a year, I'd probably have an AFC titled dog. heck, I'm qualified for the Amateur this year and I probably won't be running because I have hunting trips planned the weekend right before the Amateur, and the week of the Open. And I'm OK with that!

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:41 pm

If I may, in one of my earlier posts I noted that I quit going to trials because several in attendance were not very friendly or helpful. As Shaggs pointed out, they should have gotten their heads out of their _______. I have been involved with hunting since I could walk (grew up on a farm and hunting was part of my family's lifestyle). Went away to coollege and then graduate school. Have been blessed with success professioinally and personally. But, I am still more at home hunting and running around in the woods than any other place. I take pride in being able to fit in with most anyone. BUT, the most recent posts in this thread and many other posts within this forum are a good example of why trials are not more well attended in my opinion. There are several who would be well served to work harder at getting along.

The reason I started this thread is because my four year old GSP just received his FC (has only run in puppy, derby and open classes since starting), and I don't know if I will ever see hiim run a brace again. I send the dogs to a trainer because I do not have time to train them and when trial season is over, they are in top shape and ready to rock and roll by November. I would rather wait for trial season to be over and take him and my others into a peacefull field or wooded area and let them hunt till their hearts are content. It is a LOT more enjoyable than watching people fight about dogs. As someone mentioned the dogs don't give a crap about whether they are FC, NFC or just your best friend.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:16 pm

Don't let fools on the inter webs, be your measuring stick of the FT community. I have field trailed all over the place east of the Mississippi, several grounds, and several states. I have been to weekend walking trials and national CH qualifiers. I have met a few folks I was not particularly fond of, but I have yet to be treated poorly, or see anyone treated poorly at an FT. I have ridden braces with HOF handlers, some of the best pros in the industry, and probly the most influential pointer breeder in the last half century. Every one of them has gone out of their way to make me feel accepted by the "good ol boys club" you her bitched about so often.

I have made great friends and connections through FTs.

Looking through this thread, I think the #'s being thrown around, though very likely accurate, are rather misleading. My guess from my limited experience is that in the world of AKC somewhere between 20-30% of dogs legitimately campIgned will achieve an FC and or AFC. Many dogs get close and the owners run out of steam either financially, or just get "over it".
Some breeds make the title much harder to achieve, by requiring winning a single breed major, or requiring water work, or making the retrieve necessary. Some folks run a few juvenile stakes and never break a dog, those dogs need to be considered in those entry #'s, the dogs that are entered in 4 stakes a weekend 5-10 weekends a year, dogs that are already titled.

Like a said before. FC or AFC is a numbers game. If you have a broke dog, and you run it often enough you will eventually title.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:22 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:Don't let fools on the inter webs, be your measuring stick of the FT community. I have field trailed all over the place east of the Mississippi, several grounds, and several states. I have been to weekend walking trials and national CH qualifiers. I have met a few folks I was not particularly fond of, but I have yet to be treated poorly, or see anyone treated poorly at an FT. I have ridden braces with HOF handlers, some of the best pros in the industry, and probly the most influential pointer breeder in the last half century. Every one of them has gone out of their way to make me feel accepted by the "good ol boys club" you her bitched about so often.

I have made great friends and connections through FTs.

Looking through this thread, I think the #'s being thrown around, though very likely accurate, are rather misleading. My guess from my limited experience is that in the world of AKC somewhere between 20-30% of dogs legitimately campIgned will achieve an FC and or AFC. Many dogs get close and the owners run out of steam either financially, or just get "over it".
Some breeds make the title much harder to achieve, by requiring winning a single breed major, or requiring water work, or making the retrieve necessary. Some folks run a few juvenile stakes and never break a dog, those dogs need to be considered in those entry #'s, the dogs that are entered in 4 stakes a weekend 5-10 weekends a year, dogs that are already titled.

Like a said before. FC or AFC is a numbers game. If you have a broke dog, and you run it often enough you will eventually title.
How did you get from 20 - 30% titling to your last sentence of 100%? Did you even read the report Shags so kindly posted? It does not support either of your guesses, certainly not 100%. For what it is worth, my first guess was close to your' s.

And it hurts you think me a fool.

Neil

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by slistoe » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:39 am

jimbo&rooster wrote: Like a said before. FC or AFC is a numbers game. If you have a broke dog, and you run it often enough you will eventually title.
Sorry, but I have to call BS on this one.
Having self-titled one FC, garnering placements in adult stakes with 4 other dogs and judging many hundreds of dogs in broke stakes, I think I know what it takes to get a placement on a dog. I personally have owned broke dogs that would never have got a placement regardless of how often they may have been entered, let along eventually won a major stake.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Hotchkiss » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:52 am

[quote="jimbo&rooster"]Don't let fools on the inter webs, be your measuring stick of the FT community. I have field trailed all over the place east of the Mississippi, several grounds, and several states. I have been to weekend walking trials and national CH qualifiers. I have met a few folks I was not particularly fond of, but I have yet to be treated poorly, or see anyone treated poorly at an FT. I have ridden braces with HOF handlers, some of the best pros in the industry, and probly the most influential pointer breeder in the last half century. Every one of them has gone out of their way to make me feel accepted by the "good ol boys club" you her bitched about so often.

THAT is probably good advise, and I do not want to call anyone a fool. No doubt they all know more than I when it comes to trials. Perhaps I have just picked bad days to go. Everyone always seemed ready to fight about something. My dog runs bigger, my dog had more finds, my dog looks better, you are cheating, she should not even be a handler, your horse is lame, your horse is too fat ....... Everyone seemed bristled up ready to strike at anything. As the end of the day there is a lot of luck that goes into having a great dog even with great genetics. All three of my dogs are first line direct offsping of NFC's and two are amazing. One could not trial horseback or foot to save his rear, but dang can he hunt like his life depended upon it!!!!!!!

True, a few bad apples should not ruin ones experience. Maybe I will give it a try again in the spring.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:39 am

Hotchkiss -

The best advice I can give you about folks in general was penned by a gentleman long before I was born.

Desiderata
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be critical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy.

© Max Ehrmann 1927

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by dan v » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:31 pm

shags wrote:Neil,
Try looking up the number of each breed registered for the year, too. Might could give an idea of percentages.
The most recent email to data for Gordon Setters is under 500 dogs registered in AKC....might have been 2013....and that was UP from the previous year.....under 400 dogs.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by dan v » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:36 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:It's a numbers game. Many of those 20k dogs are dogs that might run 20 stakes a year, I am a firm believer that if you have a broke dog and run it enough times FC or AFC is more a "when than If". Now this is assuming you are talking AKC, which more often than not is a celebration of mediocrity. AF stakes are a little different since to be named a CH you have to win a CH stake. I have seen A lot of NICE FC and AFC dogs, but for every real good one I see I see 2 that slipped through the system collecting points.
I have judged a number of trials, AFC Championships and AKC Breed Championships. ...there isn't a lot of difference between the venues.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by dan v » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:40 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:Pro's do not pick and choose the dogs that run a stake. They run the dogs their clients pay them to run.

Jim
Wrong. My NFC/NAFC/FC/AFC dog has a very select number of trials that the pro will run him in. He's got nothing to prove in a OGD stake.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:05 pm

dan v wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:Pro's do not pick and choose the dogs that run a stake. They run the dogs their clients pay them to run.

Jim
Wrong. My NFC/NAFC/FC/AFC dog has a very select number of trials that the pro will run him in. He's got nothing to prove in a OGD stake.
I think there is more of that going on than people are willing to admit.

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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Neil » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:04 pm

And less than some seem to think.

I am not saying they are running a National Champion/National Amateur Champion in weekend stakes.

But there were 34 dogs in the just finished Hawkeye Brittany trial 30 minute Open All Age, I am doubting they were non-competitive dogs trying to sneak a win. Not all that long ago I won a 44 dog Open Gun Dog at the LaSalle Brittany Club, many of those dogs were titled. I am just not buying 30 - 50 dog filler stakes with dogs trying to back into a title.

But I think we strayed some off topic.

jimbo&rooster
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:10 pm

dan v wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:Pro's do not pick and choose the dogs that run a stake. They run the dogs their clients pay them to run.

Jim
Wrong. My NFC/NAFC/FC/AFC dog has a very select number of trials that the pro will run him in. He's got nothing to prove in a OGD stake.
So are you saying if you payed to enter your dog in OGD your pro would refuse to run him? He may suggest you not run, might even have you convinced he is in charge but at the end of the day you stroke the check......

jetjockey
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jetjockey » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:18 pm

Neil wrote:And less than some seem to think.

I am not saying they are running a National Champion/National Amateur Champion in weekend stakes.

But there were 34 dogs in the just finished Hawkeye Brittany trial 30 minute Open All Age, I am doubting they were non-competitive dogs trying to sneak a win. Not all that long ago I won a 44 dog Open Gun Dog at the LaSalle Brittany Club, many of those dogs were titled. I am just not buying 30 - 50 dog filler stakes with dogs trying to back into a title.

But I think we strayed some off topic.
I'm sure it was competitive, there were some nice dogs entered. It doesn't change the fact that 4 of the current top 10 dogs in Points were at the grounds and not entered in the weekend stake. If you want to go down the points list even further, you can add 4 more dogs that are currently in the top 50, and we're at the grounds, but didn't run. That is a fact Neil. Had those dogs been entered, they would have made up nearly 20% of the entry's.

jimbo&rooster
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:20 pm

Neil wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:Don't let fools on the inter webs, be your measuring stick of the FT community. I have field trailed all over the place east of the Mississippi, several grounds, and several states. I have been to weekend walking trials and national CH qualifiers. I have met a few folks I was not particularly fond of, but I have yet to be treated poorly, or see anyone treated poorly at an FT. I have ridden braces with HOF handlers, some of the best pros in the industry, and probly the most influential pointer breeder in the last half century. Every one of them has gone out of their way to make me feel accepted by the "good ol boys club" you her bitched about so often.

I have made great friends and connections through FTs.

Looking through this thread, I think the #'s being thrown around, though very likely accurate, are rather misleading. My guess from my limited experience is that in the world of AKC somewhere between 20-30% of dogs legitimately campIgned will achieve an FC and or AFC. Many dogs get close and the owners run out of steam either financially, or just get "over it".
Some breeds make the title much harder to achieve, by requiring winning a single breed major, or requiring water work, or making the retrieve necessary. Some folks run a few juvenile stakes and never break a dog, those dogs need to be considered in those entry #'s, the dogs that are entered in 4 stakes a weekend 5-10 weekends a year, dogs that are already titled.

Like a said before. FC or AFC is a numbers game. If you have a broke dog, and you run it often enough you will eventually title.
How did you get from 20 - 30% titling to your last sentence of 100%? Did you even read the report Shags so kindly posted? It does not support either of your guesses, certainly not 100%. For what it is worth, my first guess was close to your' s.

And it hurts you think me a fool.

Neil
Neil in my experience both statements are true. To be completely honest it's a good trial where 30% of the dogs get around clean...... I'm as guilty of the next guy of a dog with the occasional breech of manners, but I'll stick to my statements.

As far as me thinking you a fool, I'm not sure I mentioned any specifics, if you feel I was referring to you it must be a nagging concern.

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Elkhunter
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:49 am

Both are difficult, but IMO the AF CH on wild birds is the pinnacle of acheivement in my mind.

AKC is tough because you have to have a dog that can handle dopey birds wandering in front of them. My pointer came unglued on a quail this weekend and chased it around and dived into a bush like a puppy. He never sees birds like that. My GSP can handle that stuff a lot better and took 2nd this weekend.

Success in either format is something to be proud of.

fuzznut
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by fuzznut » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:00 am

As a side note: I do believe that we should breed for extremities in function to avoid drag on the breed.
This is pretty much what the show end of the breeds think as well. If this tall is good then a wee bit taller might be better. If this much side go is good, then let's breed for the extreme, coat, head styles, angulation.... etc., etc.

When watching the big winning "show dogs" remember that they have as much in common with the vast majority of the breed as the AA winners do with the average working gun dog. Most are extreme versions of the standards. I just saw a photo of a Setter that won a CH somewhere, and he was a beautifully put together dog. Put a bunch of coat on him, and I'd bet he would finish in the show ring. Actually, it would be interesting to shave all those hairy beasts down and then compare them side by side!!

As a breeder, I want to use the extreme versions in some way whether it's the field or the show ring. I watch so many breeders only use the moderate dogs (show or field) and the dogs produced just seem to become weaker and weaker in both areas. But just like our field breeders, they refuse to see the benefit of the other side of the coin.

As to the percentage of FC's out there, of course it has a lot to do with the pedigrees and the breeding programs. But also finding owners who are willing to play the game and have the staying power to follow through with worthy dogs is tough to do. And then trying to get folks to breed to the big going field dogs.....

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SCT
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by SCT » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:42 am

Here's what breeding to the extremes can produce.

pug skull
Image

But not for function. Function is most important, especially for working dogs.

fuzznut
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Re: Field Champion percentages

Post by fuzznut » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:10 pm

ugly for sure, but lucky a pugs only job in life is to be funny and a lap warmer.

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