order of e collar commands

Post Reply
khaselow
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:42 am

order of e collar commands

Post by khaselow » Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:40 pm

I'm curious....

After you have trained commands, in what order do you introduce reinforcing those commands with the e collar?

For instance, some use the e collar for a kennel command, come, and whoa in that order. Others begin with whoa. Others say it doesn't matter.

Really what I'm wondering is what is your rationale for the order and why you might think that is easiest for the dog to understand.

Kent

RichK
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 483
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:36 pm
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by RichK » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:03 pm

khaselow wrote:I'm curious....

After you have trained commands, in what order do you introduce reinforcing those commands with the e collar?

For instance, some use the e collar for a kennel command, come, and whoa in that order. Others begin with whoa. Others say it doesn't matter.

Really what I'm wondering is what is your rationale for the order and why you might think that is easiest for the dog to understand.

Kent

"Here" is the first command I teach which is also the first that gets reinforced with the e-collar. After that I like to teach the dog to turn on the whistle and the e-collar is used for that as well.

Now that the newest pup is going on seven months I'll start working on "whoa" more frequently with her after we get back from SD after opening week and the e-collar will eventually get used for that.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:48 am

To have a real collar dog they have to know at least three commands: HERE, KENNEL, WHOA. Here teaches the dog to move toward you. Kennel teaches the dog to move away from you. Whoa teaches the dog to cease all movement. A dog has to know all three to be a reliable collar dog. Once the dog is totally trained on leash, and that means through force fetch IF you do it, it's time to into the collar. I teach the commands in ballance. Teach only HERE and the dog may become sticky. Teach only KENNEL and the dog may not come to you. Teach only WHOA and the dog may freeze on commands. It's all about balance.

reba
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:50 am
Location: Central Coast of CA

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by reba » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:41 pm

1. Whoa

2. Whoa

3. Whoa

MSU Aggie
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 4:35 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by MSU Aggie » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:11 pm

Whoa then here/come. After that is a toss up. I want the dog to stop when commanded immediately when of lead, can save is life.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:49 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:To have a real collar dog they have to know at least three commands: HERE, KENNEL, WHOA. Here teaches the dog to move toward you. Kennel teaches the dog to move away from you. Whoa teaches the dog to cease all movement. A dog has to know all three to be a reliable collar dog. Once the dog is totally trained on leash, and that means through force fetch IF you do it, it's time to into the collar. I teach the commands in ballance. Teach only HERE and the dog may become sticky. Teach only KENNEL and the dog may not come to you. Teach only WHOA and the dog may freeze on commands. It's all about balance.
You just got the WHAT to do AND the WHY you should do it. +1

I believe the dog needs to know and obey all three commands in the yard, the first time the command is spoken, before the e-collar is overlaid...in the yard. THEN we go into a SMALL field and do the commands all over again, with check cord attached... verbal, hand signal whistle...THEN e-collar, if the dog does not comply immediately...anywhere along the way.

That saves a whole lot of angst when we move to a big field or heavy cover.

RayG

Timewise65
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:07 am

All of my dogs are collar trained dogs! All of my past dogs have been collar trained and I believe the collar is a great tool for a well trained dog, BUT!

Improper use of a collar can quickly ruin a good dog. Both the dog and the trainer must be fully trained on the proper use of a collar.

I would never put a collar on a dog that has not been Force Fetched in which the final part of this process is Forced to Collar! This process 'wires' the dogs brain to obedience and the fact that good things happen when you obey and not so good things happen when you do not! Getting a dog to understand that when they feel the 'pressure' from the collar, all they have to do is be obedience to the command they are hearing and the pressure will leave!

Be very careful....many a great gun dog has been ruined by the use of an e collar....

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:46 am

Timewise65 wrote:All of my dogs are collar trained dogs! All of my past dogs have been collar trained and I believe the collar is a great tool for a well trained dog, BUT!

Improper use of a collar can quickly ruin a good dog. Both the dog and the trainer must be fully trained on the proper use of a collar.

I would never put a collar on a dog that has not been Force Fetched in which the final part of this process is Forced to Collar! This process 'wires' the dogs brain to obedience and the fact that good things happen when you obey and not so good things happen when you do not! Getting a dog to understand that when they feel the 'pressure' from the collar, all they have to do is be obedience to the command they are hearing and the pressure will leave!


That is a very confusing part of your post.

tobytx
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:04 pm
Location: Texas

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by tobytx » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:28 pm

I do mine all pretty much at the time otherwise, a nick will mean come and the dog will come to you when you tell it to sit for example.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:33 pm

tobytx wrote:I do mine all pretty much at the time otherwise, a nick will mean come and the dog will come to you when you tell it to sit for example.
That confuses me too. You tell it to come and it sits?????????

tobytx
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:04 pm
Location: Texas

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by tobytx » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:58 pm

Yeah that was worded wrong. Say you teach sit, down, come. You start adding the collar but only work on come at first. If that's the only command you work on with the collar, sometimes the dog will come to you when nicked because it has associated the nick with the come command. Now you have to work on sit with the collar as well so I don't have a first, second or third command I lay the collar over first because I don't want the nick to be the signal for that one command, I want it to for all commands.

My first dog I trained only had one command and that was come. So if the dog didn't come it would get nicked. It was to the point where I didn't have to give the verbal command, all I had to do was nick the dog and I got the same results. It was a small issue when I wanted to add commands and when I nicked the dog for example for not sitting, he would come to me. Hope that explains it better and why I don't start with one command.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by shags » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:35 am

A nick shouldn't be a signal, it's a result of disobeying a signal. Signals are verbal, whistle, or by hand.

Is a dog supposed to read your mind when you nick him? How is he supposed to know whether the nick means come, or sit, or turn, or whatever? He needs a specific command for each action in order to obey it.

At a preserve I had the opprtunity to watch a guy "train" his lab around the parking area. It went "Heel!" Zap. "Sit!" Zap. "Stay!" Zap. "Come!" Zap for about a half hour. Then the guy just marched along without any commands, but apparently still had his thumb on the zapper. Poor dog just stood there quivering like a hairy black blob of jelly - he didn't know what to do or not do. After 10 minutes the guy gave up, loaded the dog into the truck, and left. I often wondered what became of the poor thing.

Timewise65
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by Timewise65 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:29 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:All of my dogs are collar trained dogs! All of my past dogs have been collar trained and I believe the collar is a great tool for a well trained dog, BUT!

Improper use of a collar can quickly ruin a good dog. Both the dog and the trainer must be fully trained on the proper use of a collar.

I would never put a collar on a dog that has not been Force Fetched in which the final part of this process is Forced to Collar! This process 'wires' the dogs brain to obedience and the fact that good things happen when you obey and not so good things happen when you do not! Getting a dog to understand that when they feel the 'pressure' from the collar, all they have to do is be obedience to the command they are hearing and the pressure will leave!


That is a very confusing part of your post.

I would suggest you may know nothing of Force Fetching (FF) if this is confusing to you!

The traditional way of FF involved using either an ear pinch or toe pinch to teach the dog that when they fail to follow a command like 'fetch' or 'hold' they feel some discomfort (ear or toe), at the same time they also learn they can stop that pressure by following the command, e.g. holding or fetching as told. (The newer training methods use much less pressure or some use none at all, but accomplish the same transition to collar as a last step. Once a dog gets through this step, you then start using the ecollar to build the same trained response. "Follow my command and you feel no pressure, don't follow my command and you feel pressure, that can only be stopped by doing what you are told.

Only after a dog has learned to associate the pressure from a collar as something he can control, are you really safe using the collar for training. If you think in terms of the old guys who used to feel beating a dog into minding was ok....they would do what they were told, out of fear! They seldom did it with spirit and jump in their work, but they did it, in most cases. Same thing will happen if a dog does not feel he can control the pressure...he will then show his normal spirit when working.....

I hope that is easier to understand....it is easier when you see it happen!

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:42 pm

Timewise65 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:All of my dogs are collar trained dogs! All of my past dogs have been collar trained and I believe the collar is a great tool for a well trained dog, BUT!

Improper use of a collar can quickly ruin a good dog. Both the dog and the trainer must be fully trained on the proper use of a collar.

I would never put a collar on a dog that has not been Force Fetched in which the final part of this process is Forced to Collar! This process 'wires' the dogs brain to obedience and the fact that good things happen when you obey and not so good things happen when you do not! Getting a dog to understand that when they feel the 'pressure' from the collar, all they have to do is be obedience to the command they are hearing and the pressure will leave!


That is a very confusing part of your post.



I would suggest you may know nothing of Force Fetching (FF) if this is confusing to you!

The traditional way of FF involved using either an ear pinch or toe pinch to teach the dog that when they fail to follow a command like 'fetch' or 'hold' they feel some discomfort (ear or toe), at the same time they also learn they can stop that pressure by following the command, e.g. holding or fetching as told. (The newer training methods use much less pressure or some use none at all, but accomplish the same transition to collar as a last step. Once a dog gets through this step, you then start using the ecollar to build the same trained response. "Follow my command and you feel no pressure, don't follow my command and you feel pressure, that can only be stopped by doing what you are told.

Only after a dog has learned to associate the pressure from a collar as something he can control, are you really safe using the collar for training. If you think in terms of the old guys who used to feel beating a dog into minding was ok....they would do what they were told, out of fear! They seldom did it with spirit and jump in their work, but they did it, in most cases. Same thing will happen if a dog does not feel he can control the pressure...he will then show his normal spirit when working.....

I hope that is easier to understand....it is easier when you see it happen!
It's my impression that the newer methods are geared for the amateur trainer. The "old" methods still work and work very well. By the way, the old trainers didn't "beat a dog into minding". They used and in fact developed the very methods used today. Did some dog's work out of fear? Yup. And they still do today. Every well trained dog works with a certain amount of fear, limited as it might be. If there's no fear in a dog's hear, he isn't trained.

User avatar
CDN_Cocker
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1416
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:59 pm
Location: ON, Canada

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:52 pm

I train them the same order I train before the collar. Although I don't use the collar for everything, just the important stuff. For me, that is sit and recall.... and fetch (he is FF'ed) if that was ever needed. Anything else I don't use it. However if I told the dog to kennel and he didn't, he would understand that the nick was because he was non compliant. My thinking is the less you use the collar, the better. Means you've trained the dog more effectively. You shouldn't be constantly giving the dog hydro. If you are, it doesn't understand and is not fully trained. Mine is conditioned to 2 commands, sit and here. I have a spaniel. If I had a retriever I would use it the same (and back/FTP). I do not know what pointy people use it for but I would imagine the same principles - whoa and here.

khaselow
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:42 am

Re: order of e collar commands

Post by khaselow » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:10 am

thanks everyone

K

Post Reply