GWP and DD

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gsarria
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GWP and DD

Post by gsarria » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:50 pm

What's the difference between the GWP and the Deutsche Drahthaar? Are they same breed? The same goes with the GSP and the Deutsche Kurzhaar.
I am little bit confused with this. Thanks

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:38 pm

Genetically, they both are identical.

Difference is in the breeding. There are diligent American breeders, but not all. The German system most strongly controls the breed and they control all facets of it: Disposition, ability, noise sensitivity, water ability, pointing ability, bite, coat, and tractability. If a dog doesn't pass these standards, they cannot be bred and registered as DD's or DK's. I most strongly advocate the German system.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by AlPastor » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:40 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Genetically, they both are identical.

Difference is in the breeding. There are diligent American breeders, but not all. The German system most strongly controls the breed and they control all facets of it: Disposition, ability, noise sensitivity, water ability, pointing ability, bite, coat, and tractability. If a dog doesn't pass these standards, they cannot be bred and registered as DD's or DK's. I most strongly advocate the German system.
Theoretically, they are supposed to be the same but I doubt that they are anymore. All one needs to do is look at the Labrador and dilute gene controversy.

Without even going to that extent, there is a reason why so many versatile shorthair breeders will inject a kurzhaar sire into their lines every now and then.

The closest thing that comes to a guarantee of hunting ability, when it comes to buying a pup, is the German tested vdd, vpp, and dkv dogs.

Ps. They control everything about breeding from eligibility to the breed warden having to approve the actual proposed breeding.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:04 pm

My wife is german and suggested we get a german bred DK. So I went to one of the german testing days. Big, slow, closer working. I got another shorthair. I just can't switch to a DK. You go back 4 or 5 generations and you definitely see DK'S in the navhda lines. You are also seeing FT dogs now in the navhda lines.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by tobytx » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:22 pm

greg jacobs wrote:My wife is german and suggested we get a german bred DK. So I went to one of the german testing days. Big, slow, closer working. I got another shorthair. I just can't switch to a DK. You go back 4 or 5 generations and you definitely see DK'S in the navhda lines. You are also seeing FT dogs now in the navhda lines.
I have a DD and I am looking at getting a DK next and curious about your observations. Did the DKs you saw run like these? Is this "slow, close working"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyTFtCJMzqY

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by deseeker » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:45 pm

tobytx wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:My wife is german and suggested we get a german bred DK. So I went to one of the german testing days. Big, slow, closer working. I got another shorthair. I just can't switch to a DK. You go back 4 or 5 generations and you definitely see DK'S in the navhda lines. You are also seeing FT dogs now in the navhda lines.
I have a DD and I am looking at getting a DK next and curious about your observations. Did the DKs you saw run like these? Is this "slow, close working"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyTFtCJMzqY
The dog isn't slow, but it is close. Most video on a camera is a lot closer up than it looks. I'm betting the dog is only 50 or 60 yards out. If you watch utube videos of SD pheasant hunting it looks like some of the hunters are making shots at pheasants over a 100 yards away when it reality they are being shot under 70 yards away. If you want to see dogs farther out watch some of the dogs running in Chuckar hunting videos :D

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by AlPastor » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:55 pm

greg jacobs wrote:My wife is german and suggested we get a german bred DK. So I went to one of the german testing days. Big, slow, closer working. I got another shorthair. I just can't switch to a DK. You go back 4 or 5 generations and you definitely see DK'S in the navhda lines. You are also seeing FT dogs now in the navhda lines.
You'll see DKs of all sizes and speeds. Will they ever be featherweights like ft dogs? Probably not.

However much of the way that tested DKs work is due to the German style training that places an emphasis on "cooperation". In otherwords, they like a dog to check back with the handler and run close. It isn't like they have our prairies or other wide open spaces. It has carried over to US judging.

On the other hand, you get one of those long legged medium to large dogs, keep them ft lean (so many are too heavy), and train them to encourage range; you have an all day type of dog.

I've hunted behind plenty of US and German DKs and they'll go over 300 yards when you ditch.the whole cooperation business.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by AlPastor » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:57 pm

deseeker wrote:
tobytx wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:My wife is german and suggested we get a german bred DK. So I went to one of the german testing days. Big, slow, closer working. I got another shorthair. I just can't switch to a DK. You go back 4 or 5 generations and you definitely see DK'S in the navhda lines. You are also seeing FT dogs now in the navhda lines.
I have a DD and I am looking at getting a DK next and curious about your observations. Did the DKs you saw run like these? Is this "slow, close working"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyTFtCJMzqY
The dog isn't slow, but it is close. Most video on a camera is a lot closer up than it looks. I'm betting the dog is only 50 or 60 yards out. If you watch utube videos of SD pheasant hunting it looks like some of the hunters are making shots at pheasants over a 100 yards away when it reality they are being shot under 70 yards away. If you want to see dogs farther out watch some of the dogs running in Chuckar hunting videos :D

I agree that video 2, he was under 100 yards. If you watched the guy's 3rd video, the dog is bootlicking.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by randomnut » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:26 pm

I have a DD. I hunt pretty dense areas, nothing like the open areas out west. He hunts at most 100 to 120 yards away. He's still a pup at 9 months, and has been run free since I picked him up. He does check in frequently, but I really like the way he works. He's 70 lbs now, and not a lick of fat on him. On blood or game tracks, I'm not sure how far ahead he gets. I show him the track, and he's always at the end when I finally get there.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:26 pm

At one time the Rhine river split two different styles of DK's. The east was more feather the west more fur. A breeder that I got one of my dogs from has switched to DK'S because a lot of his clients couldn't handle the big running dogs like mine. Part of what he had imported runs about like the video. Close working at a medium speed. The dogs I saw testing were over trained for cooperation. And slower. But it has been bred into them also.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by gsarria » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:30 pm

so what I understand here is that the american lines are faster and smaller than the german lines?

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by tobytx » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:42 pm

gsarria wrote:so what I understand here is that the american lines are faster and smaller than the german lines?
Yes gsp guys? I think that might sum it up but I know there are some that are navhda oriented as well that might not have as much run and range as the field bred gsp.

The DK has more emphasis on after the shot, tracking and retrieving, water work as do all the others such as DD.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by jimbo&rooster » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:55 pm

Biggest difference in DD vs GWP and DK vs GSP is the price tag, and where/how you register it.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:02 pm

The American lines are quite diverse. Which is what you get without the wardens. In the us you see different groups breeding towards what they think is correct. So you see a lot of diversity. You can get about anything you want in a shorthair. And all the groups think they have the best. And for their uses they probably do. The FT people the DK people the navhda people all think they have the perfect shorthair. But what it gives you is the ability to get what suits you best. And I bet that dog in the video is sitting around 85 lbs.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:06 pm

I checked out registration a while back. And at that time you could import a DK and register it akc. It had to have permanent id. Tattoo or microchip before it left europe.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:12 pm

The DK has more emphasis on after the shot, tracking and retrieving, water work as do all the others such as DD.

That statement is true of the dogs on the west side of the Rhine. The video shows a different style of the European dogs.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:15 pm

So even over in Europe they have divided into two different styles of dogs.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:39 pm

tobytx wrote:
gsarria wrote:so what I understand here is that the american lines are faster and smaller than the german lines?
Yes gsp guys? I think that might sum it up but I know there are some that are navhda oriented as well that might not have as much run and range as the field bred gsp.

The DK has more emphasis on after the shot, tracking and retrieving, water work as do all the others such as DD.
And the American GSP has a lot more style.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:57 am

Since this thread has already widened out to include GSP's I will widen it a bit further. Almost all Weimaraners in Britain are what I would describe as slow moving, close hunting and "nose down" hunters. One man I know went to the trouble and the expense of importing an American bred weimaraner pup. He wanted to win with a weimy in British trials.

The dog does run very well, better than any other weimaraner I've ever seen but it doesn't win any trials. It lacks the control needed to win in trials here. This, of course, could be the owners fault but we do expect a bit more control here than you folks seem to need.

I got eliminated from a trial last week because my hard going Brittany ran just a bit too well ! :lol: As usual it's all about horses for courses.
One of the other contestants at that trial had a G.W.P. I.M.O. it was dead slow and stop but it got through the trial. It's owner tried to tell me where I was going wrong. Apparently he doesn't let his dogs near game until they have had a lot of obedience drilled into them.

I replied that I did exactly the opposite to him..... I don't train a dog to stop until it has trained itself to "go." Sometimes that works well for me and sometimes it does not. My dogs are usually right on the edge of "control."

Bill T.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:03 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:Biggest difference in DD vs GWP and DK vs GSP is the price tag, and where/how you register it.
You have a huge mis-understanding of the breeds.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by Mumpy » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:11 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:Biggest difference in DD vs GWP and DK vs GSP is the price tag, and where/how you register it.
You have a huge mis-understanding of the breeds.
I'm glad someone else besides me feels the same way.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by fuzznut » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:47 am

There is a lot of diversity in the GWP here in the US. You can find everything from very close working dogs to horizon burners, to everything in between.

DD owners love their dogs, GWP owners love their dogs. There are good and bad and middling dogs in each group. Neither has a lock on The Best.

DD's are bred in the German system and registered with the German breed club - the VDD. GWPs are either NAVHDA or AKC registered.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by GWPtyler » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:12 am

fuzznut wrote:There is a lot of diversity in the GWP here in the US. You can find everything from very close working dogs to horizon burners, to everything in between.

DD owners love their dogs, GWP owners love their dogs. There are good and bad and middling dogs in each group. Neither has a lock on The Best.

DD's are bred in the German system and registered with the German breed club - the VDD. GWPs are either NAVHDA or AKC registered.
Bingo!

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by AlPastor » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:20 pm

GWPtyler wrote:
fuzznut wrote:There is a lot of diversity in the GWP here in the US. You can find everything from very close working dogs to horizon burners, to everything in between.

DD owners love their dogs, GWP owners love their dogs. There are good and bad and middling dogs in each group. Neither has a lock on The Best.

DD's are bred in the German system and registered with the German breed club - the VDD. GWPs are either NAVHDA or AKC registered.
Bingo!
Sorry but I've never seen a bad dd, dk, or pp. It is the major difference between a gene pool with a very strict breed standard and testing program, and one that is a free for all.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by fuzznut » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:31 am

Al, then you have found the perfect group and breed(s) for you.
Aren't we lucky that there are different groups and breeds out there for all of us to use as we see fit and that fit our needs and uses?

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by SCT » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:49 am

Trekmoor wrote:
I replied that I did exactly the opposite to him..... I don't train a dog to stop until it has trained itself to "go." Sometimes that works well for me and sometimes it does not. My dogs are usually right on the edge of "control."

Bill T.
Exactly how I do it!

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by AlPastor » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:01 am

fuzznut wrote:Al, then you have found the perfect group and breed(s) for you.
Aren't we lucky that there are different groups and breeds out there for all of us to use as we see fit and that fit our needs and uses?
There is no reason to be defensive.

It is just a little silly to believe that a controlled breeding program, where participants must meet confirmation standards, be hunt tested well beyond what 99% do in the field or would consider training for, and medically tested to eliminate genetic disease, wouldn't yield a product where all boats are raised.

We've already seen what unregulated breeding yields. I don't think any of my gsps would meet the breed standard. They're all too slight of stature. Labs make every argument in the world against open breeding from "show" lines, to breeding carriers of genetic disease, to weird colors and confirmations, etc.

My contention isn't that one breed is better than the other, it is that one methods has been forcing the culling of dogs that don't meet breeding standards for almost a century while the other hasn't.

That's reality.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:43 pm

AlPastor wrote:
fuzznut wrote:Al, then you have found the perfect group and breed(s) for you.
Aren't we lucky that there are different groups and breeds out there for all of us to use as we see fit and that fit our needs and uses?
There is no reason to be defensive.

It is just a little silly to believe that a controlled breeding program, where participants must meet confirmation standards, be hunt tested well beyond what 99% do in the field or would consider training for, and medically tested to eliminate genetic disease, wouldn't yield a product where all boats are raised.

We've already seen what unregulated breeding yields. I don't think any of my gsps would meet the breed standard. They're all too slight of stature. Labs make every argument in the world against open breeding from "show" lines, to breeding carriers of genetic disease, to weird colors and confirmations, etc.

My contention isn't that one breed is better than the other, it is that one methods has been forcing the culling of dogs that don't meet breeding standards for almost a century while the other hasn't.

That's reality.
Yep, think you are right. And the proof lies in the fact that 99% of the owners of GSP's and GWP's picked there dogs over the DD's and DK's. And 99% of the breeders would quit if they couldn't pick the dogs they like because of what they produce. In this country freedom includes doing what you like and not what someone else decides you should like. Personally I don't like that system for dogs anymore than I like it for humans. The pro is uniformity and the con is the lack of improvement. No one knows what will produce what.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by cjhills » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:34 pm

Ezzy, are you saying you would lie to see more control in breeding. There was a man who believed in the theory. I believe his first name was Adolph...........................Cj

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:33 pm

Pretty sure he supports improvement

"The pro is uniformity and the con is the lack of improvement"

The great thing about the gsp's is the giant gene pool available to our breeders. Including the DK. That they can use to develop their lines. IF you do your due diligence you can find and buy whatever you want.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by nikegundog » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:40 am

cjhills wrote:Ezzy, are you saying you would lie to see more control in breeding. There was a man who believed in the theory. I believe his first name was Adolph...........................Cj
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxAaK0iJ2vQ

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by RockyDD » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:53 am

[quote="fuzznut"]There is a lot of diversity in the GWP here in the US. You can find everything from very close working dogs to horizon burners, to everything in between.

I am not so sure all that diversity within a breed is a good thing. In the late 1980's, I was looking for a dog that hunted very close and the GWP breed was the closest working Vdog breed at the time. We spoke and you told me of one breeder to stay away from that was trying to breed the GWP for trialing. I bought one and he was the best dog I have owned for my needs.

Today, if you want to buy a GWP most are of the trial type or are bred by the Alliance for open space western hunting. The same thing has happened to the GSP, Brittany, and Viszla. I have owned all of them and they were once easily trained, close working co-operative dogs that were easily trained by the average hunter. Now they look and run more like the EP.

Breeders once developed dogs for the way they hunted and each breed was a little different from the others but the dogs within the breed were very much alike. If you bought a certain breed, you knew what to expect in performance. Now that has changed to all of the breeds trending toward becoming the same. Finding a dog that has the original characteristics intended by the developer is very difficult and requires a lot of research.

So to bring this back to the OP 's question, I am buying DD's because they are not trialed, yet.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:16 am

rsz_20150119_125059.jpg
rsz_20150119_125059-1-2-1.jpg
This is why a 50yd dog doesn't work for everyone.
These are the same pictures. Can you even spot the dog in the top picture. This is one reason the breeds have headed in different directions. Yes you have to do more research to get what you want, but it is there and available.
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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:36 am

IMG_1288_zps41ddfb1c.JPG
rsz_120151011_103351-1-1.jpg
Plus I get all this
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Re: GWP and DD

Post by Bacon1676 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:38 am

I know this has really nothing to do with the op, and I promise I'm not trying to kick the beehive, but I remember someone telling me that today's GSP was crossed with the pointers to get what we have today (all of it was done before genetic testing) and I don't mean all GSPs were crossed with pointers by the way. That's why the GSPs with a lot of white on them look the way they do. Not sure if any of that is right or not, but that is what I was told, so someone older than I would have to correct me. I heard they did it to get a dog that had the drive of the pointers and the disposition of the GSP. I know it's possible b/c the horse industry I grew up in did it all the time before dna was around, now like I said that is all well before my time, but was told to me by some of the people who did it.

By the way I'm not for either side, as long as it does its job and is healthy I'm good. My GSP puppy is a mix of GSP and the DK bloodlines, so we shall see.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by fuzznut » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:00 pm

Al, my apologies if I came off sounding defensive, not my intention in any way.

My point was only to show that there are a wide variety of GWP's being bred here today, from close working grouse type dogs to wide ranging chuckar types. Is that a bad thing? IMO, no it isn't. The best part about our breed is that it can be this, or that and do this or that rather well.

All breed evolve and they have evolved here in the US to fit what hunters want to use. Some don't like that, others do. DD's, DK's, GWP, GSP, Each have a place in the system, each has something to offer if we just allow ourselves to not put them into a box.

It seems only the DD folks have a real problem with interchanging and using the bloodlines as needed. The DK and GSP folks have been doing so with little issue.

There will always be a stigma with Field Trialing with the hard core- that's ok too. For those that find the sport fun, they use it. For those that despise it... plenty of non trial dogs out there to find as well. Good dogs is good dogs.. no matter where they come from.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by greg jacobs » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:53 pm

Bacon
My boys both have gsp-DK crosses. There were two litters raised. Quite a bit of differences from pup to pup. One looks a little more gsp one more DK. Both are really nice hunting dogs.

Nobody seems to be responding to the pointer gsp statement. I know my gsp can really run and handles the heat fairly well and prefers not to retrieve if she doesn't have to. A bird in her mouth doesn't excite her nearly like finding the next bird.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:21 am

So here's the thing. You buy a dog that fits your hunting style, your needs, and your abilities. If you don't want a dog that works a max of 200 yards, don't buy a DD and don't bitch because people don't change it. It's doing what that dog was bred to do and what DD owners want them to do.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by gsarria » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:23 am

I guess if I want a dog that ranges 75 and 150 yards that checks on me really often I should go with either the DD or the DK.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by RockyDD » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:24 am

I have no problem with people crossing breeding breeds or selectively breeding for range as long as it is all done in the open and the dogs are identified as being modified from the original. Is there any FT venue that is truly open to all dogs including mixed breeds? There should be because cross breeding is how new breeds were made. Hiding it makes for some very disappointed East Coast grouse hunters when they get a turbo-charged model.

All common Vdog breeds except the DD are being lengthened in range because of field trialing. I have heard that is also true in Europe. Are there any breeders trying to preserve 1960's style dogs. Maybe there is no market for those dogs anymore.

I see some signs that a few DD breeders are possibly, maybe thinking about reducing some of the power and energy to make them more causal hunter friendly and trainable but don't tell anyone.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by fuzznut » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:54 am

in my experience with GWP's and knowing a whole lot of breeders and owners in the other versatile breeds, I can tell you that there are plenty of people breeding for close working dogs. They are out there, and really not that difficult to find

However, one persons close working dog may not fit the description of your close working dog, so that is why having a good long talk with the breeders is important.

And another "however" would be, just because you see an FC in the pedigree I wouldn't toss out that breeding. The huge misconception is that all FC dogs are fire breathing huge running over the hill types... not true in the real world. But if you are talking to a breeder whose goal is to breed only fire breathing, huge running, over the hill types.. might be a good idea to say Thanks and continue your search.

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ezzy333
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Re: GWP and DD

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:04 am

RockyDD wrote:I have no problem with people crossing breeding breeds or selectively breeding for range as long as it is all done in the open and the dogs are identified as being modified from the original. Is there any FT venue that is truly open to all dogs including mixed breeds? There should be because cross breeding is how new breeds were made. Hiding it makes for some very disappointed East Coast grouse hunters when they get a turbo-charged model.

All common Vdog breeds except the DD are being lengthened in range because of field trialing. I have heard that is also true in Europe. Are there any breeders trying to preserve 1960's style dogs. Maybe there is no market for those dogs anymore.

I see some signs that a few DD breeders are possibly, maybe thinking about reducing some of the power and energy to make them more causal hunter friendly and trainable but don't tell anyone.
There is so much more to developing a new breed than just crossing two breeds. Cross breeding alone will never produce a uniform dog that you could call a breed. What you will produce are puppies that may not even resemble each other in looks, size, and performance. Some will be nice dogs but not anything you could call a breed since they will not reproduce themselves.

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Bacon1676
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Re: GWP and DD

Post by Bacon1676 » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:19 am

I'm gonna agree with you Ezzy, but I also disagree. I agree that it takes more than just cross breeding to make a breed. Where I disagree with you is when you cross two different breeds in the same discipline like a English pointer and a GSP who are built similarly and have the same drive (birds) you will get something along the lines of both breeds. Hopefully you will get the best of both making a better dog. Obviously, not all crossings will work but eventually one will. You can always breed for a certain trait which I'm sure you know.

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Re: GWP and DD

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:36 am

I know it's a minuscule sample size, so take this with a grain of salt, but the one DD I've seen (training buddy) has been extremely unimpressive. Big, lumbering dog. He finds birds and doesn't bust them. He hardly ever moves faster than a trot. And when he goes on point it's hard to tell if there's a bird or if he's taking a break.

After seeing that, I prefer a pointer that will nearly flip itself over going on point.

My point is go see a bunch of dogs work and figure out what you like. I'm sure that DD finds birds, but my preference is clearly something with more pazazz.

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