Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

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ruffbritt4
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by ruffbritt4 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:59 am

When it comes to grouse dogs (pointing breeds) people either think experience or breeding makes a good dog. What do you think? I think that any dog can become a good grouse dog with experience, it might just take some dogs more experience.

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33Scout
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by 33Scout » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:27 am

I would like to think it is takes both good breeding and a lot of exposure to the birds in order to have a dog that can consistently points and hold birds. This is a great post BTW. I have been hunting grouse for a while now and have a Llewelyn (Pete) who impresses me every time I take him out. IMO and I will throw this out there I AM NO PROFESSIONAL so I would like to avoid any confrontational matches that sometimes arise on here. I have noticed in my more than a couple years of grouse hunting that grouse are a very tricky bird for a dog. A good grouse dog is usually a very experienced dog. Reason being is that there is usually some sort of obstacle that will always be between the dog and the bird. What I mean by that is a good pointing grouse dog has to know to lock up at the first hint of the birds scent. It's seems common for an inexperienced dog to want to crowd the bird. Also a dogs tempo means a lot. I have noticed that a dog that is able to move very slow and methodical is better for grouse and will bump less birds than a dog who is hunting like his/her hair is on fire. This usually leads to a lot of bumped birds. Experience is key when it comes to grouse for a dog. I had an old man that is a very respected dog trainer from PA (He is mentioned on this forum at times) tell me that when it comes to training a grouse dog the birds do all of the work when it comes to teaching your dog to grouse hunt. I find this statement to be very true I have experienced this with one of my friends GSP who is used to quail and pheasant hunting in KS. Breeding is key for a medium to close working methodical dog. Like I stated before my statements are based on my own observations and experiences. Sorry typing on my phone so this may be a little choppy for the reader. My apologies.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:16 am

It is a combination of the two. I disagree though that dog's through training and exposure can become good grouse dogs. Many can't. There are some that never, ever, figure it out. So I think that to increase your chances, you pick a dog from great grouse breeding then spend more time with the dog than your family training it, and finally give it all the exposure you possibly can. In the final analysis, it takes a ton of grouse contacts to make a grouse dog.

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33Scout
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by 33Scout » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:40 am

Gone hunting I agree with u whole heartedly. I forgot to add in my post that not ever dog can become a good grouse dog like you stated some dogs just never figure them out..

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ruffbritt4
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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by ruffbritt4 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:52 am

Great posts. I didn't mean that just any dog, but a well bred dog from a reputable breeder. I don't think it has to be out of the greatest most expensive breeding. My experience is very limited and I am no professional so this is just my opinion
Last edited by ruffbritt4 on Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:01 am

Not that I am any sort of grouse dog expert, because I ain't...but...

I believe you gotta have a bird dog first... and by that I mean areal live honest to goodness, do anything in the world to find a bird...dog. That only comes with breeding.
If you do not have a bird dog, you will never have a dog that has what it takes, the heart, the desire, the grit... to successfully hunt grouse in cover. If you do not have a dog that is willing to do absolutely anything it has to do to find, point and hold a bird for the hunter, it won't make a good grouse dog because northeast, heavily pressured grouse will definitely test a dog.

Then comes the part about learning to hunt the grouse and that is going to take shoeleather and miles. Lots of dogs make good woodcock dogs but as said above, not all figure out what it takes to pin grouse reliably. I do think that a real bird dog will eventually figure out what it needs to do to get those feathers in its mouth, but there is no question that some are just better than others about it.

To reliably pin a ruffed grouse the dog has to learn just how far away it has to point, so as not to cause the grouse to flush. Then the dog has to learn just how close it needs to get(and how sudden that last approach must be) to freeze(or set) the bird in place so it does not run off. The first part requires a dog with a rifle for a nose. The second part requires a boldness, a suddenness and a level of confidence on the part of the dog. The second part...setting a grouse, or any wild bird is something very special.

RayG

RayG

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33Scout
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by 33Scout » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:04 am

Well said Ray!

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Grange
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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by Grange » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:54 am

I'm not convince any dog with enough experience can be a good grouse dog. I've seen enough dogs that go out hunting a lot and are average grouse dogs. I don't think that breeding is a must for a good grouse dog either, but I do think is sure helps your chances of getting a puppy that will be a good grouse dog. As far as grouse breeding or other breeding I'm often torn. I was convinced for a while that the best grouse dogs come from grouse breeding, but I'm changing my tune these days. Some of the nicest dogs I've seen in the grouse woods in the last few years do not have a lot of "grouse dog" blood.
I have noticed that a dog that is able to move very slow and methodical is better for grouse and will bump less birds than a dog who is hunting like his/her hair is on fire. This usually leads to a lot of bumped birds.
My experience has been the exact opposite in all but possibly one scenario, which is in fresh snow with no wind when grouse move to balsam fir and black spruce wetland areas. The weight of the snow on the limbs pushes them down and I've found that grouse like to hunker down at the base of these trees. Thus a dog that hunts with its nose down has been better, but speed didn't seem to come into play. I've seen a more methodical running dogs have the same luck as a faster moving dogs when both hunt with their nose down. In all other scenarios I've found that a faster moving dog will be able to pin a bird better than a slow methodical dog. Slow and methodical dogs seem to make the grouse more apt to run or if escape cover is low more apt to flush. Plus it's a heck of a rush to hear a bell clanking a 100mph and then suddenly go silent or better yet watch a speed demon almost flip over when it hits a hard point.

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33Scout
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by 33Scout » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:03 am

Grange,
I guess to each there own. I hunt with a GSP who runs hard nose down and I am still waiting to see this dog pin/hold a bird. But hey maybe I know nothing. Not totally ruling that one out lol.

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Grange
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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by Grange » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:40 am

33Scout wrote:Grange,
I guess to each there own. I hunt with a GSP who runs hard nose down and I am still waiting to see this dog pin/hold a bird. But hey maybe I know nothing. Not totally ruling that one out lol.
Ain't that the truth (to each their own comment not how much you know :wink: ).

Nose down vs. head high could be a whole other conversation. I like a dog to hunt with a higher head for many of the same reasons I like a faster moving dog.

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33Scout
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by 33Scout » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:34 am

The GSP I was referring to is a Bubby of mines pup. Just isn't exposed to grouse as much as my setter hence back to the argument that a good grouse dog is exposed to the birds..

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33Scout
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Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by 33Scout » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:28 pm

I definitely thought this forum would get more action.

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Sharon
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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by Sharon » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:59 pm

Well , once you read what Grange and Ray have to say ( experts) there is rarely much more to say. :) I just read and learn some more.

I agree with what Ray said:


"I believe you gotta have a bird dog first... and by that I mean areal live honest to goodness, do anything in the world to find a bird...dog. That only comes with breeding.
If you do not have a bird dog, you will never have a dog that has what it takes, the heart, the desire, the grit... to successfully hunt grouse in cover. If you do not have a dog that is willing to do absolutely anything it has to do to find, point and hold a bird for the hunter, it won't make a good grouse dog .................................................... " quote Ray

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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by cooper hill hunter » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:59 pm

Been there, living in the heart of grouse country and working my tail off to make a dog into a grouse dog, won't do it again if they aren't showing their goods in the first two years.

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Re: Grouse dogs, breeding or experience?

Post by cooper hill hunter » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:01 pm

Been there, living in the heart of grouse country and working my tail off to make a dog into a grouse dog, won't do it again if they aren't showing their goods in the first two years.

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