Worth Reading

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Worth Reading

Post by Neil » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Even if you disagree with him, you should read Milner.


http://www.shotgunlife.com/wingshooting ... llars.html

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Sharon » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:00 pm

Very interesting read. Hard to argue with success.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by shags » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:21 pm

Sharon wrote:Very interesting read. Hard to argue with success.
That road goes both ways :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:18 pm

B.S. is cheap. Problem is, Milner has never made ONE Field Champion, to the best of my knowledge. HIs training methods fail in today's world of Field Trial Retrievers. What he was, was a fabulous promoter of himself and his kennel.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:26 pm

Nice scattergun.......this older article creates the same splash each time it makes the message board rounds.
Everything old is new again.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:29 pm

I believe Mr. Milner is a very successful marketer and speaks to a specific niche. I am not pro-Milner at all. As stated I just think he knows how to market himself. But for the average hunter that wants a dog that can retrieve a few ducks/birds and be under control - his methods and dogs are probably fine. By average hunter I mean not someone with extensive experience training a dog.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:59 pm

Robert I was stating my opinion. I will not reply further to this as I cannot say anything polite to you. I've had enough of your posts, I think we would be better to not converse.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 pm

Some good points and not so good points in the responses. Hickox has been using operant conditioning with success for quite a few years. I'm not sure if any NFC's are a product of operant training but that's what it will take to get the FT community on board. We have had several guys here in the SW that have had success winning in AKC Pointing trials using this method.

I like the intent behind the process though.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:28 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Some good points and not so good points in the responses. Hickox has been using operant conditioning with success for quite a few years. I'm not sure if any NFC's are a product of operant training but that's what it will take to get the FT community on board. We have had several guys here in the SW that have had success winning in AKC Pointing trials using this method.

I like the intent behind the process though.
Not only has he made no NFC'S, he has made no FC's either. It MAY have some validity with hunting dog's but certainly not trial dog's. I do think though that for some people that can not stand to pressure a dog, it is a good system.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by polmaise » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:32 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Robert I was stating my opinion. I will not reply further to this as I cannot say anything polite to you. I've had enough of your posts, I think we would be better to not converse.
Mr Milner will be pleased.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:47 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Some good points and not so good points in the responses. Hickox has been using operant conditioning with success for quite a few years. I'm not sure if any NFC's are a product of operant training but that's what it will take to get the FT community on board. We have had several guys here in the SW that have had success winning in AKC Pointing trials using this method.

I like the intent behind the process though.
Not only has he made no NFC'S, he has made no FC's either. It MAY have some validity with hunting dog's but certainly not trial dog's. I do think though that for some people that can not stand to pressure a dog, it is a good system.
In general, there is a focus on keeping the "style and spirit" in the dog down here led by Bill Gibbons and his deciples.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Neil » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:55 pm

I know the man and his methods, have visited his kennels a number of times.

He has long maintained that modern retriever field trials no longer measure the skills needed for a hunting dog, as the dogs got better and better they increased the difficulty to separate them. And had to continue to make them even more difficult. Adding such things as a 100 yard channel blind, with 2 marks and a diversion bird. It may well be true that a dog cannot be trained to that level without an e-collar.

To be fair, I have rejected the same criticism concerning pointing dog field trials.

He has successfully trained thousands of dogs for hunters, police, military, and Home Land Security. It is hardly just hype and marketing.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:39 pm

As with any training method, it can be successful if you persevere. Retrievers are measured by their success in field trials and he has had none. Dogs could even be trained by the Wolters method if you were desperate.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Neil » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:11 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:As with any training method, it can be successful if you persevere. Retrievers are measured by their success in field trials and he has had none. Dogs could even be trained by the Wolters method if you were desperate.
You may measure retrievers by field trials, as I do pointing dogs, but we do not speak for everyone. If we did, there would be only Labs and pointers bred. Most hunters I know only want a good hunting dog and not impressed with field trials, some are even anti. I think it explains the hunting tests. I doubt there are more than 1% of all Labs ever entered in a field trial.

My concern is the fear the animal rights nuts will use Milner to outlaw e-collars.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:19 am

Milner has been touting his system for years and now his son's caught the disease. There are so many people using ecollars for so many different things, I doubt that in this country, it's possible to outlaw them. A much more compelling case can be made FOR them than against them in fact. They are, without question, the fastest, most precise, and most humane method of training any dog. Whenever anyone falls into reading the Milner trap, they're only reading a biased, out dated, narrow view of dog training. And a view that cannot be substantiated by success.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:47 am

It seems Mr. Milner does not fully understand e-collar training, OR, in the interest of furthering his method, misrepresents them. He refers to training with e-collars as "discipline" and "punishment." Yes it can be used as such, especially in the event of "trash breaking," but that is a circumstance that keeps the dog safe. But most e-collar training is negative reinforcement, which is neither punishment or discipline.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by 33Scout » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:55 am

To each there own.. I can see where he is coming from. I like to listen to learn as much as I can use what I know the best and do what works for me.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:10 am

I have no doubt the system works, as it is used by many trainers on a variety of animals. The ecollar also works and in the right hands it is a safe, humane training tool. If one is good, the other doesn't have to be bad.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:23 am

I sure am glad there are different approaches to training II like the base of Rick Ronnie Smith method modified and modifying from what his Delmar did . West method also had its place in successful method. Those two seem to be a lot behind the dogs that are doing the best

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Meller » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:20 am

mnaj_springer wrote:It seems Mr. Milner does not fully understand e-collar training, OR, in the interest of furthering his method, misrepresents them. He refers to training with e-collars as "discipline" and "punishment." Yes it can be used as such, especially in the event of "trash breaking," but that is a circumstance that keeps the dog safe. But most e-collar training is negative reinforcement, which is neither punishment or discipline.
+1

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:46 pm

Once upon a time, there were no ecollars and dogs got trained with positive reinforcement. There was no clicker but the principal was the same with positive enforcement working and punishment was counter productive. With the development of ecollars and trialing, the dogs have changed a lot and are a lot less cooperative and are more difficult to train. I think it would be very difficult to use positive enforcement only with most modern pointing or Vdogs. Labs may be a different story.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:29 pm

RockyDD wrote:Once upon a time, there were no ecollars and dogs got trained with positive reinforcement. There was no clicker but the principal was the same with positive enforcement working and punishment was counter productive. With the development of ecollars and trialing, the dogs have changed a lot and are a lot less cooperative and are more difficult to train. I think it would be very difficult to use positive enforcement only with most modern pointing or Vdogs. Labs may be a different story.
You have it "bleep" backwards. I've been training dog's for 45 years now, and in the old days it was a brutal affair. Thank You Lord for ecollars.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:16 pm

You didn't train any field trial vdogs 45 years ago because there weren't any. There was no need to be brutal with a Vdog then.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:34 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
RockyDD wrote:Once upon a time, there were no ecollars and dogs got trained with positive reinforcement. There was no clicker but the principal was the same with positive enforcement working and punishment was counter productive. With the development of ecollars and trialing, the dogs have changed a lot and are a lot less cooperative and are more difficult to train. I think it would be very difficult to use positive enforcement only with most modern pointing or Vdogs. Labs may be a different story.
You have it "bleep" backwards. I've been training dog's for 45 years now, and in the old days it was a brutal affair. Thank You Lord for ecollars.
+10 or maybe +20

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:42 pm

RockyDD wrote:You didn't train any field trial vdogs 45 years ago because there weren't any. There was no need to be brutal with a Vdog then.
Rocky, sorry to tell you I had a Vizsla in my kennel 50 years ago and added two more just a few years later. They were not hard to find but there weren't many good ones back then. They are much more independent now than they were then on average.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:04 pm

I prefer the original model. I think you are making my point. Because they are more independent, bigger running, etc nowyou need an ecollar now to control them and train them. That was not the case 50 years ago.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:13 pm

Rocky, you don't know what the heck you're talking about. You're on the wrong board if you think you can B.S you're way through. Lots of VERY good trainers on here and a lot of us have been around a LOOOONG time. No V dog's 50 years ago.......really?

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:23 pm

RockyDD wrote:You didn't train any field trial vdogs 45 years ago because there weren't any. There was no need to be brutal with a Vdog then.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:41 pm

Rocky, I think you're romanticizing the past a little. I wasn't around way back when, but I've read that some old time trainers used 8 shot at "a safe distance" to correct dogs. I'm not sure about you, but that sounds way worse than an e-collar.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:55 pm

8 or 9 shot, whips, chains, and a host of other things were used when we didn't have the great tools we have today and the best of those is the e-collar IMO.

















reat tools we have today and the best of them is the e-collar.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:02 pm

I'm still trying to figure out what gave him the idea there were no trials 45 years ago.
The first gsp and Brittany trials were in 43&44.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Neil » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:52 pm

I think he is trying to say there were no trials for Viszlas 50 years ago. I don't know, but the Brittany Club was formed in the 40's and were ran in trials in the 30's. But until 1968 the e-collars were crude devices with little use other than trash breaking. So I think he is confused or at least has confused me.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:40 am

Then I'm really confused about why he started blabbing about versatiles when no one else was. His name is Rocky DD which would lead me to believe he has a DD.

It doesn't matter, his whole concept of what training was like in times past and how cooperative the dogs were is wrong.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:31 am

gone hunting,

How did you use a whip, gun or chain to train your dogs? It sounds impossible to me. Were they versatiles?

Versatiles are the ones that were co operative enough then to train with a clicker. Did you own any in the sixties? They are also the ones that have changed the most. I never used an ecollar on mine and never owned one until I bought my DD. I never used any of your techniques either.

The OP asked if clicker training would work on a bird dog. My answer was yes on sixties style Vdogs but probably not on many dogs today.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:24 am

You are totally wrong about the cooperation of these dogs. I don't know how you ever came up with your ideas. In the 70's we trained a TON of GSP's, Britt's, and GWP's. The GSP's were some of the toughest and most hard headed dog's I've ever seen.

Versatiles were NOT dogs that could be clicker training. There was no clicker training back then. Versatile Dog simply referred to a dog that could be used for upland or waterfowl, it had nothing to do with the tractability of the dogs. Whoever has been feeding you this garbage doesn't know what they're talking about.

I don't think we should get into a discussion on a public forum about how training HAD to be done 50 years ago. There are trainers that still use these old techniques today.

In my opinion, you have this whole thing backwards. It is today that the dog's have been bred for performance and tractability. It has evolved greatly through the years.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:00 am

As you can see, I am new to this forum and don't know any of the posters on here. I am ending my participation in this thread with one last question- Do you breed, train or run Field trial dogs?

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:06 am

I actually did all three. Today I just play with NAVHDA a little so the breeder can say the dog was tested. I have a DD like you.

This is the best forum on the net for training advice. I'm on quite a few of them and the advice you get from the guys on here is some of the best out there. But, you can't B.S. anyone on here or you're going to get called on it.

You should know that I'm 70 years old, retired from dog training, and just train and hunt my own dog's now. I do have a new pup coming in the spring.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:24 am

And I am approaching 83, as though that makes me different, and have had and trained several of the continental breeds since the early 60's. It was a completely different ball game back then before we had the extended long check cord known as an e-collar. I would guess the only one happier to see it used than I am is our dogs.

Ezzy

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:31 pm

RockyDD wrote:As you can see, I am new to this forum and don't know any of the posters on here. I am ending my participation in this thread with one last question- Do you breed, train or run Field trial dogs?

I've done all 3 for years and I'm 70 . ( Is there a prize for the woman who tells her age? :) Come on Shags, lets hear it. LOL

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:42 pm

Sharon wrote:
RockyDD wrote:As you can see, I am new to this forum and don't know any of the posters on here. I am ending my participation in this thread with one last question- Do you breed, train or run Field trial dogs?

I've done all 3 for years and I'm 70 . ( Is there a prize for the woman who tells her age? :) Come on Shags, lets hear it. LOL
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Neil » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:23 pm

I train and run my hunting dogs in trials, rarely breed.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by shags » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:38 am

Sharon wrote:
RockyDD wrote:As you can see, I am new to this forum and don't know any of the posters on here. I am ending my participation in this thread with one last question- Do you breed, train or run Field trial dogs?

I've done all 3 for years and I'm 70 . ( Is there a prize for the woman who tells her age? :) Come on Shags, lets hear it. LOL
I'm a young chick here at 66 :lol: :lol: For the record, I started in pointing dog training in 1970.
RockyDD wrote:I prefer the original model. I think you are making my point. Because they are more independent, bigger running, etc nowyou need an ecollar now to control them and train them. That was not the case 50 years ago.
Do you really think an uncontrollable dog will perform with perfect manners at range? Isn't it easier to control or intimidate a dog at close range? Do you realize that 'independent' means bold, not 'do what the heck you want'? Why do you think old time trainers carried a shotgun loaded with 9s - it wasn't always to shoot birds. Same for flushing whips, they weren't solely used for beating a bird from the bushes, but they were sometimes used for beating.

Because trainers used the methods available to them ( and they didn't involve clickers or cookies) many wouldn't even begin serious work with a dog until it was around two years old. Nowadays, it's not uncommon at trials to have 2 year olds running in broke dog stakes, and some even attain titles.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:48 am

Shaggs,

Finally, someone my own age.

I think we are all talking past each other. I am not against ecollars. I have one and use it every day.


I do not think clicker training will work on the modern dog. They require more training, have a lot more energy, are more independent (both bold and do what they want) and have more prey drive than they used to have.

My first dog was an EP that was uncontrollable and untrainable so after him I only have owned versatile(continental) d dogs. From 1963 to 1990, I or my family owned one britt, one gsp, two viszla, three weims and a gwp. All were trained without guns, whips, etc. None ever wore an ecollar. They were not trained with a clicker but they were by using positive reinforcement and 24/7 bonding. None of those dogs were tested or came from FT stock. They did not require much training. They were highly co-operative and hunted close naturally. Gonehuntin, I don't know what your experience is but it must be a lot different from mine because none of the above is BS.

I think it would be hard, but if you could find one these old style versatile dogs, you would be able to train it without an ecollar but you would have to live with a close working cooperative dog that might not do what you now expect of a dog.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by SCT » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:14 am

Your first dog was an un-trainable and uncontrollable pointer, yet the modern dogs are more dog? Shags pointed out that many dogs are finished and some titled by two years rather than 3-4 years old. Part of the reason imo is because the dogs are more intelligent and trainable now than in the past. Of course e-collars have played a big part in that.

I've got a female pointer that is going through the breaking process and entering her first broke dog stake tomorrow at 16 months old. She loves to learn and handles the e-collar training well because her trainer is extremely well skilled at his job. Many training systems will work on bird dogs of today.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:53 am

Some of us hold dog's to a higher standard than others. You never know how good your dog is unless you compete or have competed.

Over the years Rocky, dogs and breeding programs evolve and they evolve for the better. If a dog is not tractable it is not going to do well in trials. As I said, the GSP's of old were, to me, horrible dog's. Even the German's have evolved their breeding so their dog's are not as sharp as they once were.

I've trained a TON of the old time dog's and I'm telling you, the new ones are easier. Tractability and cooperation have nothing to do with range, it's how they handle at range.

Geeze, all we need is Don F to chime in here and between Ezzy, Sharon, Shags, Don, Neil and I, we'll have about 400 years of dog experience commenting.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by shags » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:07 am

So Rocky, to what level were those family dogs trained? I've seen dogs with very little training of any sort do serviceable jobs as personal gundogs. Higher levels of finish require higher levels of training effort for most dogs. So before we discuss dogs' abilities and characters, let's make sure we are also comparing what is expected of them.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by shags » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:10 am

SCT wrote:I've got a female pointer that is going through the breaking process and entering her first broke dog stake tomorrow at 16 months old. She loves to learn and handles the e-collar training well because her trainer is extremely well skilled at his job. Many training systems will work on bird dogs of today.
Best of luck to you! Those first few (or more ( :o ) broke dog stakes can be harrowing experiences :lol:

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:25 am

shags wrote:So Rocky, to what level were those family dogs trained? I've seen dogs with very little training of any sort do serviceable jobs as personal gundogs. Higher levels of finish require higher levels of training effort for most dogs. So before we discuss dogs' abilities and characters, let's make sure we are also comparing what is expected of them.
I think this whole thread (or the majority of it) has revolved around this idea. Both training methods can be effective, but there may be limitations on how far and where they can take you (as trial results suggest). I've seen serviceable pheasant dogs that really only know "sit" and "here" (a particular Lab comes to mind). But individuals' standards differ.

Regardless, this thread as been informative and makes me appreciate this forum and the experience of the posters.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by RockyDD » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:54 am

They were trained for personal hunting only and as house pets. So it was obedience training and recall. No trial or judging. They once called these dogs the type that could be used right out of the box. Meat dogs for the serious hunter.

That's why I asked if you were all field trialers. I think that is a different world. The level of training and the requirements of the dogs are a lot higher. If you were training an EP like I had you needed more than a shotgun and whip.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:14 am

There is also a substantial difference in the knowledge, understanding and perspective of people who have spent a lifetime touching, observing and judging literally thousands of dogs...rather than those who have a reference of a few to a few dozen. I believe I could break any dog without an e-collar, I just don't know why I would. i also cannot think of a single reason why I wouldn't keep an open mind and learn from a guy like this. You can be as gentle or firm as prudent or necessary with any given dog without regard for the tool and still get things done. Just as you can be as brutal, temperamental and reactive either based on ignorance, impatience or stupidity; again, without regard for the tool. There is a difference between dog breeds and lines within the breeds, but it is lazy to blame the dog on effectiveness it is generally the acumen of the trainer.

No, I wouldn't use an e-collar on a child. However, I would expect them to reason, to use forethought, nurture their sense of morality and to develop a sense of personal values to shape their behavior. I don't expect the same from my dogs.

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