AKC Limited Registration

[AlPastor]

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

First off, most pointing dogs are dirt cheap and there is a 101 different competitive venues so the motivation to exploit a line is limited. I can pick up a national champ x national champ gsp pup for $700. However, when you get into the retrievers, the game changes. There is the national and the National amateur. That's it. Prices for a bath tub bred toilet paper pedigreed lab is $700. If you start getting some dogs with real pedigrees, you see prices start to climb. $1500. $2000. $2500. $3000. Even $3500 isn't that uncommon. I know that a NFCXNFC litter brought over $5000 a pup. Look at the classifieds on entry express or rtf, son of so and so x daughter of so and so (neither dog has ever done "bleep") is a $1500 pup. Also, as all these pups are being bred and never competing, the stud stats start to plummet and now the great sire "doesn't throw" and his stud price drops.

This isn't even getting into the worst part of breeding, the designer color breeders, which everyone knows is the result of chocolate, yellow, and black labs being crossed with weimaraners (the dilute gene is the dead giveaway), are now trying to give their xbreed lines some credibility by buying pups from name sires and using them in their program.

So I'm for limited registration with a caveat... if the dog achieves MH or FC/AFC, the registration should be converted to a full registration.

Frankly, all the controlled continental breeds (like the drahthaar, kurzhaar, langhaar, pudelpointer, etc) are a limited registration until the animal meets the breeding eligibility requirements like hunt testing, confirmation, and medical testing.

[polmaise]

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

Wow !

[shags]

We, clueless?
Haha, sounds like some lab folks could use a clue

[RoostersMom]

I'll weigh in. I bought a dog on limited registration. The breeder wanted only the best of the litter bred. When I proved that I was willing to do the work (in this case MH title and showing the dog), she released the hold on his registration. I was also never going to breed him, so she knew that as well.

I don't think it's irresponsible or a way to "cheat" someone to want some say over your dog's lines. If you think someone is out to cheat you, you sure shouldn't be working with them. If you don't like the arrangements, go to someone else. I don't think it's a fair characterization to say that these breeders are just in it for the money or trying to "control" you. In many cases, they just want the best dogs in the litter bred, not the weakest in the litter. As many have said, you sure can't tell that at 8 weeks of age.

[nikegundog]

We, clueless?
Haha, sounds like some lab folks could use a clue

Very few well bred labs are sold on limited, it is far seen in the puppy mills and Silver breeders as a tool to limit competition.

[mnaj_springer]

Do any spaniel folks want to chime in? Gundogguy?

Not that I don't want opinions of others, but spaniels are my main interest on the topic.

[CDN_Cocker]

Do any spaniel folks want to chime in? Gundogguy?

Not that I don't want opinions of others, but spaniels are my main interest on the topic.

We're probably too clueless brotha hahahaha :roll:

[Bacon1676]

Bacon, I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure? Your post was incoherent at times. I always wonder why you brought up doing homework, driving to see a dog, etc... Seems out of context with the discussion so far. What I'm trying to get at is... I don't know what your point is...

And that would be my ADD kicking in, lol...

I think what i was trying to say was that breeders who put effort into proving their lines are always going to be sought after. If, say one guy has an ok female and wants a better dog he will breed her to a better male to get a better product (hopefully), but if they don't continue the improving process those lines will die out.

Some kennels start out as backyard operations and grow into something bigger. Most however don't. The only reason larger kennels get larger is because there are results to see from field trials, hunt tests, and shows. Those who do their homework, like I did, stay away from lines who don't prove their dogs have what it takes to be really good dogs. I would like to hope there are more people like me than not. So by the end of the day more people are going to stay away from lines that are not proven.

Hope this clears some of what I was saying up. Been studying for a finance test so I have been running financial options through my brain while trying to write all of this.

[AlPastor]

We, clueless?
Haha, sounds like some lab folks could use a clue

Very few well bred labs are sold on limited, it is far seen in the puppy mills and Silver breeders as a tool to limit competition.

It's changing and changing quick. Too many big name field trial lab offspring have been sucked down into the dilute gene pool (silver, champagne, charcoal) rabbit hole.

I think most folks using limited registration with hunting breeds are just trying to protect their dogs and their offspring.

[AlPastor]

If he does not feel the dog is a breeding prospect he should sell it with limited or no registration. However if he says it is for my protection as well as his, I have a problem with it. Very few , maybe none, of us have such a wonderful line that every puppy is going to be a super star. If you believe that you probably have not been doing it long enough. Some really good dogs produce really crappy puppies. In the big breeding programs there are a lot of surprises if you peek under the rug. If you think every puppy you breed is great you are fooling yourself, poop happens. I would not by a puppy with breeding restrictions or pay more for breeding rights........Cj

You just described why limited registration actually protects the quality of the offspring from big name dogs.

If even the best breedings can produce poop or just poor dogs, why should those poor poop pups be bred on the strength of their parents' accomplishments and pedigrees?

Almost all of let's say Labrador litters that are done under limited registration will be converted to full registration, with breeding rights, once the dog accomplishes something of merit.

BTW, do you not believe that breed clubs like drahthaar, kurzhaar, pudelpointer, etc aren't trying to protect against the duds breeding and thus improving their gene pool?

[AlPastor]

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

Wow !

Wow is right. You should read some of the previous comments. Culls. Monopolies. Rip offs.

Every drahthaar, kurzhaar, pudelpointer, langhaar, etc ever produced by one of the controlled breeding clubs (vdd,vpp,dkv,etc) must be crappy culls since they all come with limited registrations and can't be bred until they've met the standards (hunting, conformation, and medical).

It is shocking how people are against meritocracy in dog breeding.

[polmaise]

are 'they' not all selling or just keeping all them pups they are breding

[nikegundog]

We, clueless?
Haha, sounds like some lab folks could use a clue

Very few well bred labs are sold on limited, it is far seen in the puppy mills and Silver breeders as a tool to limit competition.

It's changing and changing quick. Too many big name field trial lab offspring have been sucked down into the dilute gene pool (silver, champagne, charcoal) rabbit hole.

I think most folks using limited registration with hunting breeds are just trying to protect their dogs and their offspring.

Not really, among the puppy mills maybe that's true, but not among quality breeders.

[gonehuntin']

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

First off, most pointing dogs are dirt cheap and there is a 101 different competitive venues so the motivation to exploit a line is limited. I can pick up a national champ x national champ gsp pup for $700. However, when you get into the retrievers, the game changes. There is the national and the National amateur. That's it. Prices for a bath tub bred toilet paper pedigreed lab is $700. If you start getting some dogs with real pedigrees, you see prices start to climb. $1500. $2000. $2500. $3000. Even $3500 isn't that uncommon. I know that a NFCXNFC litter brought over $5000 a pup. Look at the classifieds on entry express or rtf, son of so and so x daughter of so and so (neither dog has ever done "bleep") is a $1500 pup. Also, as all these pups are being bred and never competing, the stud stats start to plummet and now the great sire "doesn't throw" and his stud price drops.

This isn't even getting into the worst part of breeding, the designer color breeders, which everyone knows is the result of chocolate, yellow, and black labs being crossed with weimaraners (the dilute gene is the dead giveaway), are now trying to give their xbreed lines some credibility by buying pups from name sires and using them in their program.

So I'm for limited registration with a caveat... if the dog achieves MH or FC/AFC, the registration should be converted to a full registration.

Frankly, all the controlled continental breeds (like the drahthaar, kurzhaar, langhaar, pudelpointer, etc) are a limited registration until the animal meets the breeding eligibility requirements like hunt testing, confirmation, and medical testing.

Geeze...........How much miss information can be crammed into one post?

[AlPastor]

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

First off, most pointing dogs are dirt cheap and there is a 101 different competitive venues so the motivation to exploit a line is limited. I can pick up a national champ x national champ gsp pup for $700. However, when you get into the retrievers, the game changes. There is the national and the National amateur. That's it. Prices for a bath tub bred toilet paper pedigreed lab is $700. If you start getting some dogs with real pedigrees, you see prices start to climb. $1500. $2000. $2500. $3000. Even $3500 isn't that uncommon. I know that a NFCXNFC litter brought over $5000 a pup. Look at the classifieds on entry express or rtf, son of so and so x daughter of so and so (neither dog has ever done "bleep") is a $1500 pup. Also, as all these pups are being bred and never competing, the stud stats start to plummet and now the great sire "doesn't throw" and his stud price drops.

This isn't even getting into the worst part of breeding, the designer color breeders, which everyone knows is the result of chocolate, yellow, and black labs being crossed with weimaraners (the dilute gene is the dead giveaway), are now trying to give their xbreed lines some credibility by buying pups from name sires and using them in their program.

So I'm for limited registration with a caveat... if the dog achieves MH or FC/AFC, the registration should be converted to a full registration.

Frankly, all the controlled continental breeds (like the drahthaar, kurzhaar, langhaar, pudelpointer, etc) are a limited registration until the animal meets the breeding eligibility requirements like hunt testing, confirmation, and medical testing.

Geeze...........How much miss information can be crammed into one post?

Then address them

[ezzy333]

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

First off, most pointing dogs are dirt cheap and there is a 101 different competitive venues so the motivation to exploit a line is limited. I can pick up a national champ x national champ gsp pup for $700. However, when you get into the retrievers, the game changes. There is the national and the National amateur. That's it. Prices for a bath tub bred toilet paper pedigreed lab is $700. If you start getting some dogs with real pedigrees, you see prices start to climb. $1500. $2000. $2500. $3000. Even $3500 isn't that uncommon. I know that a NFCXNFC litter brought over $5000 a pup. Look at the classifieds on entry express or rtf, son of so and so x daughter of so and so (neither dog has ever done "bleep") is a $1500 pup. Also, as all these pups are being bred and never competing, the stud stats start to plummet and now the great sire "doesn't throw" and his stud price drops.

This isn't even getting into the worst part of breeding, the designer color breeders, which everyone knows is the result of chocolate, yellow, and black labs being crossed with weimaraners (the dilute gene is the dead giveaway), are now trying to give their xbreed lines some credibility by buying pups from name sires and using them in their program.

So I'm for limited registration with a caveat... if the dog achieves MH or FC/AFC, the registration should be converted to a full registration.

Frankly, all the controlled continental breeds (like the drahthaar, kurzhaar, langhaar, pudelpointer, etc) are a limited registration until the animal meets the breeding eligibility requirements like hunt testing, confirmation, and medical testing.

Geeze...........How much miss information can be crammed into one post?

It seems that the results are in. There are very few of the breeds that control who or what can be bred while the backyard breeders dogs are selling to most of the people wanting a good dog. Except for the dog and horse groups. I don't think any other group is involved. Most groups insist that there be several generations of animals bred by several different people if they are to recognize a new or different breed.

And just a word about the term ethical. who decides what is ethical or not. We each have our own definition of the word and most of us are not willing to accept someone else's definition. I am not sure it even applies to dog breeding in the context we are discussing. I know I don't know enough about most people to judge their ethics as I find it challenging enough to find a pup out of parents that possess the qualities I am looking for in a dog.

[gonehuntin']

I'm going to answer you and gloss over a lot of it. First, you can still get pretty decent lab gun dog's for 5-700.00. It is the field trial lines that go for more money but I would never pay over $1,500.00 for any lab pup. The chances of him making a great dog are not one bit greater than the 2,500.00 pup.

Next, a NFC NAFC female is rare and one that can be bred is more rare. $5,000.00 is not out of line for one NFC bred to another NFC. I was going to buy one in, I believe the early 80's when they bred two NFC's together (Euroclodon was the female, don't remember the NFC) and they wanted $1500 a pup and that was 35 years ago. Still, I don't think the chances of two NFC's producing another NFC are any greater than two FC's being bred together of one FC to a QAA dog. Rex Carr used to say that there would be a lot more FC's if 1) they were more thoroughly trained and 2) they were more thoroughly campaigned. As long as there are well bred dog's the training and campaigning is more important than the breeding. To my knowledge, there is no real family line of lab's like Wehle's pointers or the Old Hemlock setters. Lab breeders are all about out crosses and what they produce. No great lines are ever perpetuated without campaigning.

What proof do you have that lab's were EVER crossed with Weims? Labs have been throwing silver pups for as long as I have been associated with them thou it was the most rare of the phases.

It needs an MH or FC for registration? Kind of throwing all the dedicated hunters right out the window there aren't you?

The continentals are NOT limited registration. Lets take the DD or DK. They can be bred to a GWP (DD) or a GSp ( DK) and the pups can be registered but registered as GWP or GSP. If they are tested in NAVHDA or VDD and achieve puppy points, they can then be registered in the German system.

Limited registration is only for those of limited intelligence.

[Spy Car]

Most of you are completely clueless as to why someone would want to protect their line and who makes breedings off of it.

First off, most pointing dogs are dirt cheap and there is a 101 different competitive venues so the motivation to exploit a line is limited. I can pick up a national champ x national champ gsp pup for $700. However, when you get into the retrievers, the game changes. There is the national and the National amateur. That's it. Prices for a bath tub bred toilet paper pedigreed lab is $700. If you start getting some dogs with real pedigrees, you see prices start to climb. $1500. $2000. $2500. $3000. Even $3500 isn't that uncommon. I know that a NFCXNFC litter brought over $5000 a pup. Look at the classifieds on entry express or rtf, son of so and so x daughter of so and so (neither dog has ever done "bleep") is a $1500 pup. Also, as all these pups are being bred and never competing, the stud stats start to plummet and now the great sire "doesn't throw" and his stud price drops.

This isn't even getting into the worst part of breeding, the designer color breeders, which everyone knows is the result of chocolate, yellow, and black labs being crossed with weimaraners (the dilute gene is the dead giveaway), are now trying to give their xbreed lines some credibility by buying pups from name sires and using them in their program.

So I'm for limited registration with a caveat... if the dog achieves MH or FC/AFC, the registration should be converted to a full registration.

Frankly, all the controlled continental breeds (like the drahthaar, kurzhaar, langhaar, pudelpointer, etc) are a limited registration until the animal meets the breeding eligibility requirements like hunt testing, confirmation, and medical testing.

Geeze...........How much miss information can be crammed into one post?

It seems that the results are in. There are very few of the breeds that control who or what can be bred while the backyard breeders dogs are selling to most of the people wanting a good dog. Except for the dog and horse groups. I don't think any other group is involved. Most groups insist that there be several generations of animals bred by several different people if they are to recognize a new or different breed.

And just a word about the term ethical. who decides what is ethical or not. We each have our own definition of the word and most of us are not willing to accept someone else's definition. I am not sure it even applies to dog breeding in the context we are discussing. I know I don't know enough about most people to judge their ethics as I find it challenging enough to find a pup out of parents that possess the qualities I am looking for in a dog.

No Ezzy, "backyard breeders" are not supplying good dogs. Backyard breeders sell cheap dogs that are bred without doing medical clearances or meeting any of the other things that ethical breeders do.

National breed clubs set standards for ethical breeding. I'm surprised a man who claims to know-it-all about dogs is so unaware of the basics.

Small scale ethical breeders do produce good dogs, but they are not what are is meant by the term "backyard breeders."

You don't seem to wish to communicate on common terms, so I guess the purpose is just to be argumentative. Why? Who knows.

Bill

[fuzznut]

The continentals are NOT limited registration. Lets take the DD or DK. They can be bred to a GWP (DD) or a GSp ( DK) and the pups can be registered but registered as GWP or GSP. If they are tested in NAVHDA or VDD and achieve puppy points, they can then be registered in the German system.

ummm, don't think that is correct. A DD bred with a GWP will be removed from the DD system. Once registered as a GWP they cannot go back.

I have sold on limited registration in the past, and would do so in the future. A puppy with a bad bite, crappy coat, etc might go on a limited registration. The new owners can do everything they wish, but may not breed that puppy. If they choose not to go along with my wishes.. that's ok. I will send them on to another breeder.

As the breeder, my puppy, my terms of sale.

[gonehuntin']

The continentals are NOT limited registration. Lets take the DD or DK. They can be bred to a GWP (DD) or a GSp ( DK) and the pups can be registered but registered as GWP or GSP. If they are tested in NAVHDA or VDD and achieve puppy points, they can then be registered in the German system.

ummm, don't think that is correct. A DD bred with a GWP will be removed from the DD system. Once registered as a GWP they cannot go back.

I have sold on limited registration in the past, and would do so in the future. A puppy with a bad bite, crappy coat, etc might go on a limited registration. The new owners can do everything they wish, but may not breed that puppy. If they choose not to go along with my wishes.. that's ok. I will send them on to another breeder.

As the breeder, my puppy, my terms of sale.

That's what I said; can still be registered but as a gwp not a DD. NAVHDA doesn't even recognize the DD; they all listed as GWP.

[nikegundog]

Back yard breeder, is simple a term used for people that are not breeding primarily for income purposes or perhaps breeding an occasional litter, it seems that some confuse that term with "puppy mill". In no way is the term "Back yard breeder", synonymous with unethical or poor breeding.

[gonehuntin']

Back yard breeder, is simple a term used for people that are not breeding primarily for income purposes or perhaps breeding an occasional litter, it seems that some confuse that term with "puppy mill". In no way is the term "Back yard breeder", synonymous with unethical or poor breeding.

+1

[AlPastor]

I'm going to answer you and gloss over a lot of it. First, you can still get pretty decent lab gun dog's for 5-700.00. It is the field trial lines that go for more money but I would never pay over $1,500.00 for any lab pup. The chances of him making a great dog are not one bit greater than the 2,500.00 pup.

Next, a NFC NAFC female is rare and one that can be bred is more rare. $5,000.00 is not out of line for one NFC bred to another NFC. I was going to buy one in, I believe the early 80's when they bred two NFC's together (Euroclodon was the female, don't remember the NFC) and they wanted $1500 a pup and that was 35 years ago. Still, I don't think the chances of two NFC's producing another NFC are any greater than two FC's being bred together of one FC to a QAA dog. Rex Carr used to say that there would be a lot more FC's if 1) they were more thoroughly trained and 2) they were more thoroughly campaigned. As long as there are well bred dog's the training and campaigning is more important than the breeding. To my knowledge, there is no real family line of lab's like Wehle's pointers or the Old Hemlock setters. Lab breeders are all about out crosses and what they produce. No great lines are ever perpetuated without campaigning.

What proof do you have that lab's were EVER crossed with Weims? Labs have been throwing silver pups for as long as I have been associated with them thou it was the most rare of the phases.

It needs an MH or FC for registration? Kind of throwing all the dedicated hunters right out the window there aren't you?

The continentals are NOT limited registration. Lets take the DD or DK. They can be bred to a GWP (DD) or a GSp ( DK) and the pups can be registered but registered as GWP or GSP. If they are tested in NAVHDA or VDD and achieve puppy points, they can then be registered in the German system.

Limited registration is only for those of limited intelligence.

I'm not going to gloss over any of it

1. Lab Pricing - not only did you agree with me, that ft lines fetch a premium (is 1500 and up), you justified the market for the 5k dog. No disagreement.

2. Silver Labs - the parent club disagrees with you http://www.thelabradorclub.com/subpages ... +Labradors

3. Limited Registration Conversion - I'm just telling you what I've seen some breeders doing. Frankly, a ton of dedicated hunters own breeds where the parent club requires testing prior room breeding. Regardless, this is your opinion. Hardly misinformation.

4. Continentals Limited Registration - I hate to tell you that for a litter to be registered with the Vdd, Vpp, Dkv, etc; both parents most be registered with the appropriate club, meet breeding requirements (testing, health,confirmation), and have.the breed warden approve the breeding. No DD x GWP litter will ever be registered in the VDD. In fact, the DD would promptly be removed from the VDD.

Anyway, thanks for setting those of us with limited intelligence (despite having a kennel full of gsps and labs, I do own a DD which was a limited registration pup) straight.

[Spy Car]

You all are just plain wrong in your understanding of how the term "backyard breeder" is used.

From Wikipedia (that gets it right):

Backyard Breeder is a general term, often considered derogatory, used in USA to describe people who breed animals, often without registration. In some cases the animals are inbred narrowly for looks with little regard to health.[1] The term most often is used to describe certain types of breeders of dogs and horses. The term is used in this sense by the Animal Welfare community, The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA), larger established breeders and breed clubs in contrast to the more positive term, "reputable breeder" that describes operations that use responsible methodology and practices.

It implies either or both of home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a for-profit small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practices. Larger commercial operations of a similar type that breed dogs are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm. However, as large kennels usually require licensing, many puppy mills are licensed with the USDA.[2]

Many small breeders resent the term and its use. Some do so because they assert that they run small, but high-quality "boutique" operations. Others argue that their unregistered animals are highly desirable as companion animals and economical for ordinary people to purchase. Both groups deny that they contribute to low quality or produce unwanted animals.

This type of breeder is usually regarded by the Animal Welfare, ASPCA,[3] and other groups as likely to exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:

Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of animal being bred.

Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations.

Breeding of a working breed for appearance rather than working ability. This is a criticism also levelled at 'reputable' breeders who breed for the show ring - in some cases distinct working and show strains have emerged.

Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance.

Excessive breeding from individual females, to the detriment of their health.

Sale of animals with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers.

Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing an animal that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle.

Breeding of animals for illegitimate reasons, such as for horse slaughter or the usually illegal sports of baiting and dog fighting or to defend venues of criminal activity. Dog fanciers generally believe that such ill-bred dogs are the reason for the bad reputation of some breeds in the public perception, and the resulting breed-specific legislation. The production of "PMU foals" from pregnant mares bred solely for their urine production (used in the making of the drug Premarin) is also widely condemned due to the frequency with which the progency of such breedings are shipped directly to slaughter.

Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for offspring, thus adding to the population of unwanted dogs and to the slaughter of horses for meat.

[AlPastor]

The continentals are NOT limited registration. Lets take the DD or DK. They can be bred to a GWP (DD) or a GSp ( DK) and the pups can be registered but registered as GWP or GSP. If they are tested in NAVHDA or VDD and achieve puppy points, they can then be registered in the German system.

ummm, don't think that is correct. A DD bred with a GWP will be removed from the DD system. Once registered as a GWP they cannot go back.

I have sold on limited registration in the past, and would do so in the future. A puppy with a bad bite, crappy coat, etc might go on a limited registration. The new owners can do everything they wish, but may not breed that puppy. If they choose not to go along with my wishes.. that's ok. I will send them on to another breeder.

As the breeder, my puppy, my terms of sale.

That's what I said; can still be registered but as a gwp not a DD. NAVHDA doesn't even recognize the DD; they all listed as GWP.

Then what is your point?

That a dog that has a limited VDD registration doesn't really have a limited registration if it gets kicked out of the breed club?

[gonehuntin']

What I said the first time. A dog can be registered just not in the VDD, but as a GWP. It can still be registered.

The German system is much more involved than limited registration. First, it isn't limited registration. If you want to breed the dog, switch registries.

Next, when the dog is tested, it's tested for disposition, bite, coat, water ability, cooperation, point, noise, retrieve, and tracking. I strongly support that system.

What parent retriever club requires testing prior to breeding? Or aren't you talking about retrievers?

[gonehuntin']

I just read the Labradoe Club statement in silvers and they have NO proof they were ever crossed with any Weim It's purely connector.. I saw silver labs from chocolates 35 or more years ago and they weren't crossed with any

Personally, I believe that is NOT a recognized lab color and no registration of that color should be allowed.

[Spy Car]

http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html

Backyard Breeder

1. Motive for breeding: "fun", "good for kids", "to make money". Does not screen buyers and seldom refuses to sell, even if buyer is unsuitable.

2. Breeds the family pet to any convenient pet of the same breed just to have purebred pups. Has no understanding or concern with genetics, pedigree bloodlines, or breed improvement.

3. Though the pets (sire/dam of pups) may be well loved, they were not tested for hip dysplasia or for other genetic problems such as cardiomyopathy and hypothyroidism.

4. Offers no health guarantee beyond proof of shots, if that. Unqualified to give help if problems develop.

5. Seller has little knowledge of breed history, the national breed club or of the AKC breed standard. May claim this does not matter for "just pets".

6. Pups raised in makeshift accommodations, sometimes unsanitary, indicating lack of long-term investment in breeding and lack of true care for the puppies well-being.

7. Even when selling "just pets", may produce AKC papers or "championship pedigrees" as proof of quality. Yet seller does not increase his own knowledge through participation in national, regional, or local breed clubs. Is not involved in showing their dogs to "prove" quality.

8. May be unwilling to show a buyer the entire litter or to introduce the dam of the litter. Cannot or will not compare/critique pups or pup’s ancestors.

9. Prices are at the low end of local range, since must move pups quickly. Advertises in the local newspaper classifieds.

10. No concern for the future of individual pups or the breed as a whole. Does not use AKC’s limited registration option or ask for spay/neuter contract to guard against the breeding of sub-standard pups. If you cannot keep pup, tells you to take it to a dog pound or to sell it.

Reputable Breeder

1. Dedication to producing quality dogs is serious avocation. Has so much invested in dogs that he struggles to break even, not make a profit. Will sell pups only to approved buyers.

2. Can explain how planned breedings are used to emphasize or minimize specific qualities through linebreeding, outcrossing, or more rarely, inbreeding.

3. Does not breed dogs younger than age 2. Has breeding stock x-rayed to check for hip dysplasia, echo/doppler run for SAS, holtered within the last year for boxer cardiomyopathy (also known as ARVC) and thyroid screened. Can produce certification to prove claims.

4. Written contractural commitment to replace a dog with genetic faults or to help owner deal with problem.

5. Loves the breed and can talk at length about its background, uses, and ideal type.

6. Has an investment in dog equipment and the puppies environment is sanitary and loving.

7. Belongs to national, regional, and/or local dog clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred dogs. Shows their dogs as an objective test of how his stock measures up.

8. Shows litter and dam in a sanitary environment. Helps buyer evaluate and choose a pup. Explains criteria for "show prospects" versus "pet picks".

9. Prices will be at the high end of local range. Price will not reflect all that is invested in the pups. A reputable breeder never profits from the sale of puppies. Does not advertise in the newspaper. Has an established waiting list for the pups.

10. After purchase, will help you with grooming or training problems. Will take back a pup you cannot keep rather than see it disposed of inappropriately. Sells pets with spay/neuter agreement and on AKC limited registration.

[Spy Car]

A backyard breeder is someone who keeps a number of dogs and either breeds them deliberately or just lets them breed. Backyard breeders may have a few dogs or many, one breed or several. They usually have no understanding of or concern about the breed standard, genetics, socializing the dogs, and maintaining their health. Don't confuse them with "hobby breeders,"  who breed small numbers of dogs and care for their dogs well.

http://www.almosthomerescue.org/whatisbyb/whatisbyb.htm

[AlPastor]

What I said the first time. A dog can be registered just not in the VDD, but as a GWP. It can still be registered.

The German system is much more involved than limited registration. First, it isn't limited registration. If you want to breed the dog, switch registries.

Next, when the dog is tested, it's tested for disposition, bite, coat, water ability, cooperation, point, noise, retrieve, and tracking. I strongly support that system.

What parent retriever club requires testing prior to breeding? Or aren't you talking about retrievers?

I know what you said and what you're continue to say, I just can't believe that it's your point.

It's like saying that being a citizen of the United states doesn't come with certain responsibilities and regulations because you can renounce your citizenship and become a citizen of Malta.

[Spy Car]

Backyard Breeder Law and Definitions

Backyard Breeder is a term used for breeders of dogs in a largely pejorative sense by the Animal Welfare community, ASPCA, larger established breeders and dog club. It is used to refer to one of the groups usually deemed not to be a Reputable Breeder.

It implies either or both of careless home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practises. In contrast, larger commercial operations of a similar type are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/backyard-breeder/

[Spy Car]

Backyard Breeder Definition

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.


http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

[Bacon1676]

Backyard Definition

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.


http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

Im just gonna say one thing to you Spy Car. Improvement is merely ones perspective. Take the bull dog for example, breeders kept breeding a certain trait because they thought it was an improvement on the breed when in reality they did more harm than good. Now you have a dog with all sorts of health problems. Anytime mankind gets involved issues will come up. We breed for certain traits and disregard others (ones we can't see and take years to develop). Mother nature is the only thing that creates a healthier dog; natural selection at its finest. All we can hope to do is to not mess it up too much. That by no means is me saying that people shouldn't breed dogs, but they shouldn't point fingers at who doesn't have the "right" answer for how dogs should be bred.

[AlPastor]

Backyard Definition

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.


http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

Im just gonna say one thing to you Spy Car. Improvement is merely ones perspective. Take the bull dog for example, breeders kept breeding a certain trait because they thought it was an improvement on the breed when in reality they did more harm than good. Now you have a dog with all sorts of health problems. Anytime mankind gets involved issues will come up. We breed for certain traits and disregard others (ones we can't see and take years to develop). Mother nature is the only thing that creates a healthier dog; natural selection at its finest. All we can hope to do is to not mess it up too much. That by no means is me saying that people shouldn't breed dogs, but they shouldn't point fingers at who doesn't have the "right" answer for how dogs should be bred.

If it wasn't for selective breeding by humans, you're correct that the bulldog wouldn't have health problems but it's because the bulldog wouldn't exist.

Selective breeding is the reason we have the vast majority of these breeds.

The bottom line is that Bill has give the definition of the word "backyard breeder" from several different sources and all of them corroborate his usage.

Words have meaning and the phrase "backyard breeder" doesn't have the meaning that some on here were advancing and using to attack him.

Bill not only killed that attack. He took a victory lap on top of the corpses of the slain.

[kninebirddog]

The only time we will put a limited registration on a pup is if there is a problem which of you are a breeder out isn't a matter of if it just a matter of when Like an over bite or an under bite. Other then something like that if people are paying full price for a puppy they get full registration

[Spy Car]

I just read the Labradoe Club statement in silvers and they have NO proof they were ever crossed with any Weim It's purely connector.. I saw silver labs from chocolates 35 or more years ago and they weren't crossed with any

Personally, I believe that is NOT a recognized lab color and no registration of that color should be allowed.

No proof in the sense that the former Weimeraner "breeders" that turned Lab "breeders" whose dog's matings started throwing so-called Silver Labs, we're not caught with their Lab bitches In flagrante delicto with Weimaraner. But the proof is in the genetics. Labs don't carry the dilute gene Weimaraners do. A "Silver Lab" is a scientific impossibility without the contribution of Weimeraner DNA.

The so-called "Silver Labs" are Weimaraner crosses.

Bill

[gonehuntin']

AKC Stance on Silver Labradors
Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

"The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept
Response of Robert Young of AKC on 3/27/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs."

I've seen silver lab's from chocolate litters for 35 years and I don't believe your statement that they were crossed with a whim.

[Spy Car]

AKC Stance on Silver Labradors
Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

"The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept
Response of Robert Young of AKC on 3/27/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs."

I've seen silver lab's from chocolate litters for 35 years and I don't believe your statement that they were crossed with a whim.

Fact-checking you gets to be exhausting.

"Silver Labs" are the result of crossing Labs with Weimaraners. This article explains it well:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html

Bill

[Spy Car]

Once again 10 of us are wrong and one of us is right.

Bill

[Grange]

AKC Stance on Silver Labradors
Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

"The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept
Response of Robert Young of AKC on 3/27/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs."

I've seen silver lab's from chocolate litters for 35 years and I don't believe your statement that they were crossed with a whim.

Fact-checking you gets to be exhausting.

"Silver Labs" are the result of crossing Labs with Weimaraners. This article explains it well:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html

Bill

That article is not fact checking. It is an opinion piece with a different opinion. Words like "I suspect", and "it is my theory" make it clear it is an opinion piece. The article even said "other breeds can be diluted" but didn't say that Labradors couldn't be diluted. It just jump directly into how all Weims are diluted. What fact check are you going to link next the NoToSilverLabs.com website.

[nikegundog]

Grange, 99% of Silvers can be traced back to one kennel in SD, its the same guy who brought us the "Pointing Lab", he also bred Wiems.....

[Grange]

Grange, 99% of Silvers can be traced back to one kennel in SD, its the same guy who brought us the "Pointing Lab", he also bred Wiems.....

I don't care about the origins of silver labs, but using an opinion piece as fact checking looks desperate.

[AlPastor]

AKC Stance on Silver Labradors
Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

"The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept
Response of Robert Young of AKC on 3/27/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs."

I've seen silver lab's from chocolate litters for 35 years and I don't believe your statement that they were crossed with a whim.

Fact-checking you gets to be exhausting.

"Silver Labs" are the result of crossing Labs with Weimaraners. This article explains it well:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html

Bill

Good lord Bill, he had to link to a letter from 2000 about an observed study in 1987. To put that into perspective, the human genome project didn't start research until 1990.

At this point, the only people that publicly believe that silver labs are purebred labs are their breeders, their owners, and gonehuntin'.

When every single dilute carrier can trace back to Kelloggs kennel (more specifically to 2 dogs, nick and/or kernel but not just their sires/dams), who are the same folks that invented the pointing lab, and it is impossible to get the dd and silver expression without one of those 2 dogs in the pedigree, it doesn't take a scientist to make the determination that the Kelloggs played Dr Frankenstein.

[AlPastor]

I just read the Labradoe Club statement in silvers and they have NO proof they were ever crossed with any Weim It's purely connector.. I saw silver labs from chocolates 35 or more years ago and they weren't crossed with any

Personally, I believe that is NOT a recognized lab color and no registration of that color should be allowed.

Kelloggs has been advertising silver/grey labs since the 50s which, I'm sure is complete coincidence, is only a couple of years after Kelloggs started selling their pointing Labradors.

Since there has never been a British bred silver/grey, it is a safe assumption that grey was introduced in America and it is a byproduct of Kelloggs weimaraner x lab pointing retriever experiment.

[Bacon1676]

Backyard Definition

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.


http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

Im just gonna say one thing to you Spy Car. Improvement is merely ones perspective. Take the bull dog for example, breeders kept breeding a certain trait because they thought it was an improvement on the breed when in reality they did more harm than good. Now you have a dog with all sorts of health problems. Anytime mankind gets involved issues will come up. We breed for certain traits and disregard others (ones we can't see and take years to develop). Mother nature is the only thing that creates a healthier dog; natural selection at its finest. All we can hope to do is to not mess it up too much. That by no means is me saying that people shouldn't breed dogs, but they shouldn't point fingers at who doesn't have the "right" answer for how dogs should be bred.

If it wasn't for selective breeding by humans, you're correct that the bulldog wouldn't have health problems but it's because the bulldog wouldn't exist.

Selective breeding is the reason we have the vast majority of these breeds.

The bottom line is that Bill has give the definition of the word "backyard breeder" from several different sources and all of them corroborate his usage.

Words have meaning and the phrase "backyard breeder" doesn't have the meaning that some on here were advancing and using to attack him.

Bill not only killed that attack. He took a victory lap on top of the corpses of the slain.

I don't think you grasped the true meaning behind what I was saying. Because those who weren't backyard breeders decided that the bulldog should go in one direction caused all the problems they have now. So in my opinion things are always changing sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. And by majority rule he didn't kill it. That's why it's him and a couple other against the rest. Like it or not.

As you can tell the bulldog was a proud breed relatively free from problems to becoming what it is today.

[Spy Car]

I don't think you grasped the true meaning behind what I was saying. Because those who weren't backyard breeders decided that the bulldog should go in one direction caused all the problems they have now. So in my opinion things are always changing sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. And by majority rule he didn't kill it. That's why it's him and a couple other against the rest. Like it or not.

As you can tell the bulldog was a proud breed relatively free from problems to becoming what it is today.

If you're looking for agreement to the point that breeds can be damaged by poor breedings, and your example is the English Bulldogs, you'll find no one more in agreement with you than myself. Among the code of ethics in most breed clubs is to breed for function over looks. That provision is ignored far too often. AKC conformation competitions can, in the real world, skew choices of even those who would like to consider themselves "reputable breeders." No agruement.

But the above is a red-herring when it comes to the discussion. That breeds can be damaged is established. People who bred without care, and without regard to genetic are almost sure to cause harm. That is not good. Ethical/reputable breeders who put their hearts, souls, time, and money into advancing breeds: breeding for function, temperament, and good health, have a vested interest in protecting their work, protecting their name, and protecting their breeds from those who might purchase one of their dogs and set up a "back yard breeding" program.

I don't love the Limited registration scheme. But I do understand what drives ethical breeders to use it.

Bill

[gonehuntin']

AKC Stance on Silver Labradors
Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

"The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept
Response of Robert Young of AKC on 3/27/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs."

I've seen silver lab's from chocolate litters for 35 years and I don't believe your statement that they were crossed with a whim.

Fact-checking you gets to be exhausting.

"Silver Labs" are the result of crossing Labs with Weimaraners. This article explains it well:

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html

Bill

At this point, the only people that publicly believe that silver labs are purebred labs are their breeders, their owners, and gonehuntin'.

.

You're making assumptions. I have seen silver labs for 35 years, mainly in Ca. Everyone always assumed they were a color phase of chocolates. Same as there's yellows that are nearly white and yellows that are dark red. I have no idea where the dog's came from. I was a trainer and took what I was given. Thing is, there is no PROOF they are not legitimate color phases.

Kind of like pointing labs. Labs have always pointed, but the most common to point were blacks from yellow or chocolate litters. I've watched labs point since the 70's. I don't know how you can say Mayo started the trend when they have ALWAYS pointed.

Were any of you ever at Kellog's in the 70's?

[Spy Car]

You're making assumptions. I have seen silver labs for 35 years, mainly in Ca. Everyone always assumed they were a color phase of chocolates. Same as there's yellows that are nearly white and yellows that are dark red. I have no idea where the dog's came from. I was a trainer and took what I was given. Thing is, there is no PROOF they are not legitimate color phases.

Kind of like pointing labs. Labs have always pointed, but the most common to point were blacks from yellow or chocolate litters. I've watched labs point since the 70's. I don't know how you can say Mayo started the trend when they have ALWAYS pointed.

Were any of you ever at Kellog's in the 70's?

Not assumptions. "Silver Labs" are a genetic impossibility without the dilute gene (which is the contribution of Weimaraners).

Bill

[polmaise]

I always had doubts about the hereditary chain with retrievers in the UK was dubious dating back to Buccleuch , but sounds like you guys have a real problem with bloodlines .
Perhaps that is one of the reasons there is more of ours over there and not one of yours (as far as I know) over here ?
.......
Limited Registration is also a practice over here for some ,usually to ensure that any off spring are health tested and registered before any breeding to ensure the line is continued.
Interesting thread (between the one up man ship ) retorts .

[Spy Car]

I always had doubts about the hereditary chain with retrievers in the UK was dubious dating back to Buccleuch , but sounds like you guys have a real problem with bloodlines .
Perhaps that is one of the reasons there is more of ours over there and not one of yours (as far as I know) over here ?
.......
Limited Registration is also a practice over here for some ,usually to ensure that any off spring are health tested and registered before any breeding to ensure the line is continued.
Interesting thread (between the one up man ship ) retorts .

If you are looking for dubious histories I invite you to check out the fantasies offered up as history with Vizslas. Seems they rode in fully formed with Arpad and Magyar hordes during their capture of the Carpathian plains in the late 9th Century.

And if you believe that....

Bill