Gun Dog Forum

nikegundog wrote:

shags wrote:We, clueless?
Haha, sounds like some lab folks could use a clue

Very few well bred labs are sold on limited, it is far seen in the puppy mills that sell Gentlem*n's G*ndogs and Silver breeders as a tool to limit competition.

Bingo! - albeit with nike's assertion emended as above. Speaking of, er, emending, Spy Car, some of us are still waiting on your treatise (but please, not in bold) on what constitutes "advanced levels of training" for your dogs from the tuggy thread.

MG

Spy Car wrote: If you are looking for dubious histories I invite you to check out the fantasies offered up as history with Vizslas.

I'll decline thanks it would detract from my original post,and quite frankly I just don'y know what your point is ,other than quotes or links from the internet.
Are you a breeder ?
Do you train or compete with dogs in the field ?
Do you hunt ?
Forgive me if you do, but it's kinda hard for a Scottish lad to visualise posts in context with doing rather than telling.

crackerd wrote:

nikegundog wrote:

shags wrote:We, clueless?
Haha, sounds like some lab folks could use a clue

Very few well bred labs are sold on limited, it is far seen in the puppy mills that sell Gentlem*n's G*ndogs and Silver breeders as a tool to limit competition.

Bingo! - albeit with nike's assertion emended as above. Speaking of, er, emending, Spy Car, some of us are still waiting on your treatise (but please, not in bold) on what constitutes "advanced levels of training" for your dogs from the tuggy thread.

MG

A person I trust and respect. As you CONSTANTLY remind my MG, I've been out of this a while. What's your take on Silver's?

polmaise wrote:

Spy Car wrote: If you are looking for dubious histories I invite you to check out the fantasies offered up as history with Vizslas.

I'll decline thanks it would detract from my original post,and quite frankly I just don'y know what your point is ,other than quotes or links from the internet.
Are you a breeder ?
Do you train or compete with dogs in the field ?
Do you hunt ?
Forgive me if you do, but it's kinda hard for a Scottish lad to visualise posts in context with doing rather than telling.

I take it that the sun is over the yardarm there in Scotland?

Bill

gonehuntin' wrote:
You're making assumptions. I have seen silver labs for 35 years, mainly in Ca. Everyone always assumed they were a color phase of chocolates. Same as there's yellows that are nearly white and yellows that are dark red. I have no idea where the dog's came from. I was a trainer and took what I was given. Thing is, there is no PROOF they are not legitimate color phases.

Kind of like pointing labs. Labs have always pointed, but the most common to point were blacks from yellow or chocolate litters. I've watched labs point since the 70's. I don't know how you can say Mayo started the trend when they have ALWAYS pointed.

Were any of you ever at Kellog's in the 70's?

I am not making any assumptions.

Kellogg started selling pointing Labradors in the late 40s. They started selling grey Labradors in the early 50s.

All dilute gene carriers can be traced to at least one of Kelloggs Nick and Kelloggs Kernel. Dogs, that don't have either of those two dogs in their pedigree, do not have the dilute gene even if they have Nick's or Kernel's registered sire or dam in their pedigree.

Therefore either we witnessed evolution strike twice in the same kennel, which has the statistical probability of you winning the power ball every week that you're alive, or someone was breeding weims to labs and fraudulently registering them as Labradors.

Spy Car wrote:

polmaise wrote:

Spy Car wrote: If you are looking for dubious histories I invite you to check out the fantasies offered up as history with Vizslas.

I'll decline thanks it would detract from my original post,and quite frankly I just don'y know what your point is ,other than quotes or links from the internet.
Are you a breeder ?
Do you train or compete with dogs in the field ?
Do you hunt ?
Forgive me if you do, but it's kinda hard for a Scottish lad to visualise posts in context with doing rather than telling.

I take it that the sun is over the yardarm there in Scotland?

Bill

I take it that you decline to answer
We have had no sun today it's our winter with a good day of frost and many birds in the bag. It's nice to 'un-wind' rather than 'wind -up'

What about the hundreds of labs from all over the country that just point naturally? They certainly weren't from Mayo's kennel. I saw it in locally bred Idaho dog's, dog's of all color in Ca., labs in BC. Your assumption is ridiculous and totally without any merit.

gonehuntin' wrote:What about the hundreds of labs from all over the country that just point naturally? They certainly weren't from Mayo's kennel. I saw it in locally bred Idaho dog's, dog's of all color in Ca., labs in BC. Your assumption is ridiculous and totally without any merit.

The same guy that over 99% of Silver labs can be traced back who is also considered the founder of pointing labs, who by mere coincidence also bred Weims is without merit? :roll: Please tell me a few of the premiere breeders of pointing labs before Mayo.

I have little official info on Labs but I did hunt over some nice smaller black Labs in Iowa that pointed back in the fifties. all of them were just out of some local backyard breeding around the Iowa City-Cedar Rapids area. Pups out of many of them were in demand as they tended to throw quite a few pups that would point. Oddity at the time was a friendhad a Lab/Britt cross that pointed but would not retrieve. Always wondered where her genes were crossed up.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:I have little official info on Labs but I did hunt over some nice smaller black Labs in Iowa that pointed back in the fifties. all of them were just out of some local backyard breeding around the Iowa City-Cedar Rapids area. Pups out of many of them were in demand as they tended to throw quite a few pups that would point. Oddity at the time was a friendhad a Lab/Britt cross that pointed but would not retrieve. Always wondered where her genes were crossed up.

Ezzy

I'm not being flippant in any way , But I reckon I could get a foxhound to point if I have it from puppy .If that's what you want.

nikegundog wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:What about the hundreds of labs from all over the country that just point naturally? They certainly weren't from Mayo's kennel. I saw it in locally bred Idaho dog's, dog's of all color in Ca., labs in BC. Your assumption is ridiculous and totally without any merit.

The same guy that over 99% of Silver labs can be traced back who is also considered the founder of pointing labs, who by mere coincidence also bred Weims is without merit? :roll: Please tell me a few of the premiere breeders of pointing labs before Mayo.

I didn't say SILVER labs, I said labs, period. Pretty well known by anyone that's been in lab's a long time. Back then no one bred for it, we just marveled at it when ever we'd get one.

gonehuntin' wrote:

nikegundog wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:What about the hundreds of labs from all over the country that just point naturally? They certainly weren't from Mayo's kennel. I saw it in locally bred Idaho dog's, dog's of all color in Ca., labs in BC. Your assumption is ridiculous and totally without any merit.

The same guy that over 99% of Silver labs can be traced back who is also considered the founder of pointing labs, who by mere coincidence also bred Weims is without merit? :roll: Please tell me a few of the premiere breeders of pointing labs before Mayo.

I didn't say SILVER labs, I said labs, period. Pretty well known by anyone that's been in lab's a long time. Back then no one bred for it, we just marveled at it when ever we'd get one.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Kellogg was breeding silver labs over 60 years ago. All dilutes, expressed or mere carriers, can be traced back to two of his dogs.

It's a dichotomy, evolution or crossbreeding?

gonehuntin' wrote:

nikegundog wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:What about the hundreds of labs from all over the country that just point naturally? They certainly weren't from Mayo's kennel. I saw it in locally bred Idaho dog's, dog's of all color in Ca., labs in BC. Your assumption is ridiculous and totally without any merit.

The same guy that over 99% of Silver labs can be traced back who is also considered the founder of pointing labs, who by mere coincidence also bred Weims is without merit? :roll: Please tell me a few of the premiere breeders of pointing labs before Mayo.

I didn't say SILVER labs, I said labs, period. Pretty well known by anyone that's been in lab's a long time. Back then no one bred for it, we just marveled at it when ever we'd get one.

I have deviated to far from the OP, I will bow out on the Silver/Pointing Lab issue.

That may be true. I have no idea when Kellogg started breeding labs. I'm telling you I saw silver labs from chocolate parents in the 70's or 80's in Ca. and Idaho. Did they come from Kellogg? I have no idea. I trained what I was given.

Kellogg MAY have been the original breeder of pointing labs......I don't know. What I'm telling you if you listen is that labs have ALWAYS pointed, regardless of the color. It was always more predominant in yellows and chocolates.

I believe the AKC's stance on it. You can insult and defame Kellogg all you want. Since no one can actually prove anything it's all pure rubbish and conjecture as far as I"m concerned.

Besides which, I could really give a crap less.

gonehuntin' wrote:besides which, I could really give a crap less.

I believe you mean "couldn't" but now I'm just being a prick

polmaise wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:I have little official info on Labs but I did hunt over some nice smaller black Labs in Iowa that pointed back in the fifties. all of them were just out of some local backyard breeding around the Iowa City-Cedar Rapids area. Pups out of many of them were in demand as they tended to throw quite a few pups that would point. Oddity at the time was a friendhad a Lab/Britt cross that pointed but would not retrieve. Always wondered where her genes were crossed up.

Ezzy

I'm not being flippant in any way , But I reckon I could get a foxhound to point if I have it from puppy .If that's what you want.

Ezzy isn't talking about training a dog to stop at first scent, he's talking about lab's that do it intinctively. They've done it in this country since I have been involved with them. Do none of your labs show a natural pointing instinct?

Doesn't matter whether they're from field trial stock or low breds from the street corner, some of them point, and do it naturally.

No!..but then we don't breed for that or train for it . We use other breeds who are far more adapt at the challenge through selective breeding of the trait

polmaise wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:I have little official info on Labs but I did hunt over some nice smaller black Labs in Iowa that pointed back in the fifties. all of them were just out of some local backyard breeding around the Iowa City-Cedar Rapids area. Pups out of many of them were in demand as they tended to throw quite a few pups that would point. Oddity at the time was a friendhad a Lab/Britt cross that pointed but would not retrieve. Always wondered where her genes were crossed up.

Ezzy

I'm not being flippant in any way , But I reckon I could get a foxhound to point if I have it from puppy .If that's what you want.

That would be good but do you think they would produce pups that point? I alwys wanted a couple.

ezzy333 wrote:

polmaise wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:I have little official info on Labs but I did hunt over some nice smaller black Labs in Iowa that pointed back in the fifties. all of them were just out of some local backyard breeding around the Iowa City-Cedar Rapids area. Pups out of many of them were in demand as they tended to throw quite a few pups that would point. Oddity at the time was a friendhad a Lab/Britt cross that pointed but would not retrieve. Always wondered where her genes were crossed up.

Ezzy

I'm not being flippant in any way , But I reckon I could get a foxhound to point if I have it from puppy .If that's what you want.

That would be good but do you think they would produce pups that point? I alwys wanted a couple.

Doubt it! unless you done the same

and the bottom line is :

It's conformation not confirmation. Please.

Sharon wrote:and the bottom line is :

It's conformation not confirmation. Please.

THANK YOU. That mistake drives me nuts. Confirmation is the act of confirming something. 'YES, black coffee"

The breeder who sells under a limited contract gives you the choice of accepting the contract and getting the dog or refusing the contract and getting the dog elsewhere. The pups are the breeders property and like it or not, the breeder gets to make the rules. When contacting the breeder, the contract is probably mentioned. Enough people go along with limited contracts to make them work for the breeder. If this didn't work, breeders wouldn't use it. There are enough people breeding second rate dogs that the good breeders like to protect the lines they have developed.

You see a lot of ads mentioning the pups championship lines and kennel names. Even if the champions were three or four generations back, and the stud looks like a nice dog but has never been hunted and comes from the farm down the road, where he was dropped. Limited contract is protecting the brand. And you don't have to buy the dogs.

Well, I hope this thread has run its course.

When January 1st comes around and I consider my regrets for the year, just before making my resolutions, the list will go as follows:
1. Not hunting as much as I'd like.
2. Worrying about work and money too much.
3. Starting this thread.

If you are satisfied then it would be a good place to end it.