Bloodlines verses Environment?

[AZ Brittany Guy]

On a related topic to sex, what % of the dogs hunting ability is related to genetics versus environment.

I happen to believe you can have the best bloodlines in the country and supress their ability in 15 minutes with a bad environment.

[Timewise65]

I have never read any statistics on that. But most of us have seen great pedigree dogs that could not be trained. I have also seen mutts that were well trained hunters...But I believe both examples would be 'outliers' statistically speaking. But the basic rules I follow is to buy the best pedigree of dog you can afford and if you use a pro for training, get the best won you can afford, this will give you the best chance of having a great gun dog. It does not guarantee success nor does it prohibit you from finding an exception that becomes a great dog with even a limited amount of good training.

Of course if it were easy and cheap, everyone would have a great gun dog!

[Mountaineer]

Re birddogs, genetics permit opportunities to learn to more quickly develop into progress.
One can roll dice, regardless.....that is a choice.

Not sure what "environment" truely means as regards birddogs.
Naturally, one has to be there....to do more than take up space or fill a square on a form.....Birddog, check.

[live4point]

Bird dogs are born,not made-It's as simple as that.

[Chukar12]

I believe most modern breedings of sporting dogs for field purposes have the genetics to be an average bird dog. Within every breeding there are varying degrees of characteristics, and within those characteristics varying degrees of what a person finds desirable. To me, short of the anomalistic “dog that won’t hunt” in a litter and they do occur, a dog’s finished ability is greatly influenced by the environment.

Field and game exposure are critical, but they are also too easy a discussion. Other environmental factors can play a role; first, I find an issue with nutrition and conditioning. Overweight or underweight dogs that are out of shape and have not established a pattern of health and conditioning run into the same social and physical related limitations as humans do in their respective worlds. Secondly, the spoiled dog and those who justify and anthropomorphize, I do not speak exclusively of a dog living in the house or riding in the front seat of a car. I speak of “cute” dogs allowed to whine and bark until they get a desired reaction, taking over beds and furniture, being allowed to nip or growl at other dogs or people, dogs without boundaries that are appropriate for their world…OR the converse…dogs that are given too many boundaries before they are mature and confident. The worst I see are dogs that get a combination of the two, excess freedom in some areas and excess restriction in others. I think many sporting dog owners could do a better job of providing the appropriate environment for a dog, In other words understanding development stages for the proper restrictions and freedoms.

How often do we hear of parents that believe they have some type of exceptional child that could, would and should be special if their teacher would just recognize the importance of individual attention for their little cherub without regard for a teacher trying to server thirty special little cherubs all with different “needs?” I believe over indulged children are a product of a poor environment; I believe neglected children are a product of a poor environment. The dogs we have dragged into this culture are subject to similar outcomes. Exceptional bird dogs are balanced physically, mentally and emotionally and they have been taught a good work ethic that is nurtured through the year and not simply a dozen trips to the ole bird club.

[shags]

On a related topic to sex, what % of the dogs hunting ability is related to genetics versus environment.

I happen to believe you can have the best bloodlines in the country and supress their ability in 15 minutes with a bad environment.

To answer that question, you'd first have to be able to quantify ability and we can't do that. One person's power dog might be another person's dud.

But disregarding the issue of %, I agree with you that a dog's ability ( that which is genetically endowed) can be ruined in short order by a bad environment, which I interpret for the purposes here to be poor training techniques. Have seen it happen more than several times by clumsy, clueless, incompetent trainers. Not that mistakes in training are lethal, or that everything must go perfectly every time, but some trainers just don't have the ability to read their dogs or to adjust to the dogs' needs.

[live4point]

Any dog can be screwed up,but give a half azzed pup and a good pup to a good trainer and the better pup is still gonna shine.Its kind of like hot rod engines,put hot rod parts in a small engine and it will run better,but put equal hot rod parts in a big engine and it will make more power than the small engine everytime.

[ezzy333]

Any dog can be screwed up,but give a half azzed pup and a good pup to a good trainer and the better pup is still gonna shine.Its kind of like hot rod engines,put hot rod parts in a small engine and it will run better,but put equal hot rod parts in a big engine and it will make more power than the small engine everytime.

I somewhat agree but where I think I differ is the fact that if you love big going dogs and I don't the dog you say is the best stays with you and the same for me when I get your dud. I still think there is a possibility that pups are created pretty much equal but different and that is good since it provides a great dog for many different people and allows them to shine in different environments..

[mnaj_springer]

Retrievers, spaniels, or pointing breeds? I think the percentage will vary with each type.

[live4point]

Any dog can be screwed up,but give a half azzed pup and a good pup to a good trainer and the better pup is still gonna shine.Its kind of like hot rod engines,put hot rod parts in a small engine and it will run better,but put equal hot rod parts in a big engine and it will make more power than the small engine everytime.

I somewhat agree but where I think I differ is the fact that if you love big going dogs and I don't the dog you say is the best stays with you and the same for me when I get your dud. I still think there is a possibility that pups are created pretty much equal but different and that is good since it provides a great dog for many different people and allows them to shine in different environments..

Your right in what traights a man wants will differ,but like a closer working dog like I prefer wont work for a field trailer to compete with,neither will a real big runner work for me,but both dogs are good if they have their game down pat.I wasn't referring to range,I was referring to genetic traits such as nose power.A good trainer can train and train a dog with a poor nose but he will never make the nose better,he might get the dog to use it better,but it will still have a poor nose.Staunchness on point is the same deal.Many good pups are born that are pretty much solid to bird scent from the start,it may have to be reinforced a little by the trainer so the pup knows that's exactly what you want,but he was pretty much born solid.On the other hand,the creeper and the bird buster,you can put the fear of god in them,but give them a little distance on you when they think you cant get to them and many of them will revert right back to bustin birds every chance they get.I think every bird hunter and trailer wants a dog that will point solid and hold his birds,and has enough nose power to find them in the first place.There are traits that a bird dog should be born with in my opinion.

[ezzy333]

I have always questioned how do we rate noses. My dilemmas is does one dog have a better nose or do they just react differently to scent? I kind of lean towards the 2nd option especially in a young dog.

[Chukar12]

I tend to agree Ezzy...a bunch of creeping dogs and dogs with poor noses as determined by how close they point are born on throw down birds

[slistoe]

So, a fellow I know stopped in a few days ago. He was upland hunting in his traditional areas for the past 2 weeks. He found himself dogless this year but borrowed a red setter from a friend in the city. This 7 year old dog hadn't seen the outside of a city dog park in its life, but it was a well bred dog. By the end of the two weeks the dog was pounding the country, pointing high and hard on pheasants and huns as well as retrieving wounded birds for him.

Bloodline?

[SCT]

I have always questioned how do we rate noses. My dilemmas is does one dog have a better nose or do they just react differently to scent? I kind of lean towards the 2nd option especially in a young dog.

It's not nearly as much about the nose as it is the brain. The brain, and respectfully the body reacts to what the nose is telling.

[SCT]

So, a fellow I know stopped in a few days ago. He was upland hunting in his traditional areas for the past 2 weeks. He found himself dogless this year but borrowed a red setter from a friend in the city. This 7 year old dog hadn't seen the outside of a city dog park in its life, but it was a well bred dog. By the end of the two weeks the dog was pounding the country, pointing high and hard on pheasants and huns as well as retrieving wounded birds for him.

Bloodline?

100% bloodline! And, wild birds create the best environment available to bird dogs. But you already know this!

[33Scout]

Chukar 12,
Very well said.

[live4point]

We see individuals in humans and dogs that posess superior traits in all forms, why discount nose power? Does anyone really believe all dogs of the hunting breeds possess the very same scenting ability? Thats like saying there are no individuals, they are all the same.

[SCT]

I didn't mean all noses are equal, but I believe the brain is where the real work is done in finding birds.

[Makintrax73]

One time when I was very young, stupid and dogless I "stole" my buddy's Brittany. He intended to hunt the dog but never did.
I felt sorry for the thing because it was crated 10 hours a day, and never got ran, much less on birds.
Didn't see a bird all day and figured the poor dog was worthless. Walking back to the truck the dog stopped dead in its tracks
in a hedge row. By that time I was kind of tired and yelled at it to come, but it wouldn't move. Walked over
there and a quail popped out. Darn dog was staunch on point, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that was the one and only quail
that dog ever saw its whole life.

[Neil]

I believe that scent detection does vary within breeds and even individual dogs; but their sense of smell is so great and the scent of the bird so strong that I am convinced it is brain power that we are observing when we talk of a dog having a good nose.

I liken it to observing two humans lifting weights, one curls 1 pound the other 1.1 pound, and declaring the second much stronger. He may well be, but that simple strength exercise is not measuring it.

I have witnessed cadaver recovery dogs find an once of humane tissue sealed in a test tube, then buried randomly within a 1,000 acre rock quarry, making pointing a 3 pound bird at 10 yards a minimal use of their ability.

[live4point]

There is no doubt brain power I a part of it.I often think back to something my old trainer buddy told me-"Don't make excuses for a bird dog".At the time he told me that,he was confident in my ability to handle a bird dog,and what he meant was this.If the owner,handler,or trainer has done their job right and started the dog right,dont take the blame or put it on other things for the dog not doing its job right.I think too many people fall into this category,when its really the dogs fault.A pointing dog was supposed to be born to hunt and find and point birds,as its owner and trainer you are to provide the opportunity and reinforce exactly how you want it done,but he again should be born with the desire.If it isn't,is it really a bird dog? I hunt a lot of public places and always enjoy stopping and talking with other hunters..One thing I find year after year are the guys who cant find any birds,usually they think there are no birds there.These guys are hunting the exact same spots myself and others always find birds,but their dogs never produce.There have been times that guy has been me,but a good old setter I owned yrs. ago proved to me many yrs. ago that just because the majority of dogs that hunt an area cant find birds,doesn't mean they aren't there."Dont make excuses for a bird dog"! If your dog doesn't get the job done after plenty of opportunity,dont spend yrs. walking behind that dud,life is too short,get yourself a dog that will do it's job.

[RayGubernat]

For the vast majority of the dogs from the pointing dog breeds that I have seen, the breeding is there. The genetics are in place to give relative assurance to the puppy purchaser that the dog will hunt in an acceptable manner.

The training and experience that the dog receives from its owners can work to make the most of those genetics...or not.

Not every dog is going to be a world beater, no matter who its momma or daddy are, and not every well bred dog is going to become a champion, no matter who their trainer is.

But as I said...most all of them will turn into decent hunting dogs, if given half a chance.

RayG

[Neil]

I believe all dogs point, cats point, plus foxes, coyotes, wolves, most all mammalian predators. Not sure about bears.

When he was 6 years old I observed my son working his 12 pound cockapoo on a leash with his cap gun. From only watching me he had the little guy steady, pointing with a high head and tail, though the sickle tail detracted some.

10 - 12 years ago UC - Davis was collecting DNA from field champions trying to isolate the pointing gene. When I participated I told them I did not think there was one. The results were never published.

[Neil]

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/cghg/top_pointer/

I do realize the absence of proof is hardly proof. There are a number of explanations for the results of the study not being published. But as a skeptic, I choose mine.

[Elkhunter]

I dont think people realize the amount of time and effort it takes to really develop a nice dog. Just running out and pointing a pigeon or a wild bird for the first time is not a "nice" dog. It takes a lot of work for a dog to know where to look for birds, how to use the wind and to understand that you are a team. I have seen so many derbies and young dogs that were tearing it up at a young age, and then we never hear from them again. Exposure and more exposure.

[slistoe]

Neither is worth a hill of beans without the other.

[kninebirddog]

Breeding has a lot to do with it and imprinting I believe has a bunch to help. Got a real good one for you Guy wish you could come down and witness it for yourself similar breeding and how different pups that have been exposed to the field since 5 weeks are drastically different then pups that got a later start to the field are doing.

But there is a boat load to say for environmental

[fuzznut]

Neither is worth a hill of beans without the other.

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