Gun Dog Forum

So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

I just sold a pup this summer to a guy who is a grouse hunter in Ohio. I was just sent a picture yesterday of his pup with her first grouse...ps I live in the Arizona.
My pups are on birds,from the time,they are 5 1/2 weeks old so I do what I can to imprint the pups with hunting for birds

When it comes to this, it seems people are either of the view that it's all experience or its in the breeding. I think if a dog is smart, has a good nose, and is given enough experience they can figure out grouse. If the parents have been proven on wild birds I would say you have a good chance at a grouse dog. Get the dog in the woods and give them the opportunity to learn and I think they will do just fine for you.

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

Imo it doesn't matter. I want parents who are proven bird dogs ( nose ,desire, independence, brains, healthy)

After that , the bird my dogs hunts depends on what opportunities I provide.

A bird dog hunts birds. They are not specie selective. There might be something though such as range or pattern and way of hunting that might differ. That is why I think there seems to be lines that people like better than others for grouse or some other specific specie.

Dogs adapt however if I was looking for a prairie dog I wouldnt buy one from the grouse woods.

I agree with above. Perhaps if you provided what breed you are looking at and where you are located some suggestions on breeders could be helpful for you.

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

Depends what traits have been evolved in the parents lines .

A pup becomes what you make of it. Some of the top grouse dogs come from All-Age quail dogs, many of the cover dogs do very well on quail in Texas, Western dogs win in the southeast. My dogs have successfully hunted most of the game birds of North America (never got to the Himalayan snowflake and a couple others)'
.

Get a well bred pup and train it to hunt the way you want.

Had many a young dog in for training from stock that has not got the traits the owner was asking for .
It can be done , but never an easy climb and 99% have had to climb rather than take the ride.
So why struggle?

Depending on the breed you're looking at there is no reason you can't find a well bred pup from a sire and dam that do exactly what you are looking to do. That's where I would start. Branch out from there if you can't find what you're looking for.

Every All-Age breeder I know offers the buyers of their pups a guarantee to happily buy back any pup that grows to be too independent and runs too big. They rarely have any takers.

What most fail to understand is how rare and fragile All-Age traits truly are. The serious breeder will go through 4 or 5 litters to get one prospect, and then 10+ prospects to get one contender. Any missteps and they never have a winner. At the same time cooperation is prized, winners must handle from foot on relocations.

So in North America at least, a pup from All-Age quail parents should make a good grouse dog.

Neil wrote: So in North America at least, a pup from All-Age quail parents should make a good grouse dog.

All over the rest of the world ,are just winging it ?

It doesn't matter, so long as their predisposed charactoristics suit your needs in terms of range, desire, stamina and biddability.

polmaise wrote:

Neil wrote: So in North America at least, a pup from All-Age quail parents should make a good grouse dog.

All over the rest of the world ,are just winging it ?

I do not know, nor care beyond intellectual curiosity, what others do on other parts of the world. The OP and I will get and hunt our dogs here, on our game birds.

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

Great bird dogs are physical tools, mental make up, and lots of bird time. I don't care about pheasant, quail, grouse, or woodcock lines.

AlPastor wrote:

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

Great bird dogs are physical tools, mental make up, and lots of bird time. I don't care about pheasant, quail, grouse, or woodcock lines.

+1

AlPastor wrote:

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

Great bird dogs are physical tools, mental make up, and lots of bird time. I don't care about pheasant, quail, grouse, or woodcock lines.

The above is true... BUT... with a puppy, it is always something of a crapshoot. If you can get a bird dog puppy from parents that have successfully hunted the bird specie(s) you intend to pursue, in the area you intend to hunt, and hunt them in a way that suits your particular way of hunting... you are stacking the odds in favor of getting a pup that will suit you.

A grouse and woodcock dog needs to be honest, needs to be fearless about cover, needs to want to hunt with you and for you. It is very often in cover that will keep you from physically keeping in contact with the dog, so the dog has got to want to go with you. A grouse dog also needs a very good nose and the brains to know how to approach and to pin a bird that is often very skittish.

There are lots of dogs in just about every pointing breed that fit the above criteria. Lots of dogs, from every venue from all age to cover dog, that have the ability to dial it up and dial it down, to suck it in or stretch it out, to hit the scent close, hard and fast or well off and careful ...depending on what they are doing that day and where they are doing it. What matters most, once you get a pup with the genetic potential, is to give it experience on the game bird specie(s) you intend to hunt.

Look for a pup from parents that can hunt the way you want to hunt. Each of us have comfort zones within which we want to stay while hunting with dogs. The comfort zone of a first time pointing dog buyer can be much less expansive than the comfort zone of someone who has had a half dozen dogs and who has hunted different birds in different terrain. The dog that suits a first time pointing dog puppy buyer will, very often be a far, far different dog than the fourth or fifth pointing dog that person is looking for ten or fifteen years down the road.

RayG


RayG

Where pointing dog's differ from retrievers is in range. I don't like a far ranging grouse dog; I like them to be withing 100 yards. So I would never buy a pup from a line of dogs that were bred to hunt at 500 yards.

Now, excluding that, I look for the same thing in every pup, the things I can actually see and test for at eight weeks:

Intelligence.
Tractability.
Retrieving Desire.
Birdiness.
Boldness.

Those are the things you can see in a pup if you are given the time to test them.

If it's for a personal hunting dog, which they all are these days, I want a pup that loves being around people, that questions a new experience rather than boldly charging in, that loves carrying something in it's mouth, and that loves birds, even as pup. It's worked for me.

""that questions a new experience rather than boldly charging in""

A sign of intelligence! What are other things you do to test intelligence?

SCT wrote:""that questions a new experience rather than boldly charging in""

A sign of intelligence! What are other things you do to test intelligence?

I like to test when they're as old as possible. Ten weeks is ideal but few breeders hold them that long. I will hold the pup and have several bird wings at my side. I will toss the wings 10-15' spaced 90 degrees apart. One pup may bring back one wing and wiggle into my lap with it. Another may bring back one and when I take the wing, immediately turn and run out for another one. That's the pup I want. The more they can remember, the smarter the pup.

Hallways work great because with the right set up, the pup can't cut across and pick up the other wings. However, even if he does that, he has shown memory and intelligence. What do I do if a pup won't run out for a wing? I don't buy him because he's showing no retrieving desire.

Neil wrote: I do not know, nor care beyond intellectual curiosity, what others do on other parts of the world. The OP and I will get and hunt our dogs here, on our game birds.

Yea, there has been loads of our dogs been sent over your way.

polmaise wrote:

Neil wrote: I do not know, nor care beyond intellectual curiosity, what others do on other parts of the world. The OP and I will get and hunt our dogs here, on our game birds.

Yea, there has been loads of our dogs been sent over your way.

The balance of trade for pointing dogs for the last 100 years as been pretty much one way, from us to you. You are welcome.

Neil wrote:

polmaise wrote:

Neil wrote: I do not know, nor care beyond intellectual curiosity, what others do on other parts of the world. The OP and I will get and hunt our dogs here, on our game birds.

Yea, there has been loads of our dogs been sent over your way.

The balance of trade for pointing dogs for the last 100 years as been pretty much one way, from us to you. You are welcome.

Here was me thinking you care not
Whilst one could argue the toss about dogs across the pond ''What really matters with a pup'' is not where it came from or even where it resides .It really matters what you do with it

Neil wrote:

polmaise wrote:

Neil wrote: I do not know, nor care beyond intellectual curiosity, what others do on other parts of the world. The OP and I will get and hunt our dogs here, on our game birds.

Yea, there has been loads of our dogs been sent over your way.

The balance of trade for pointing dogs for the last 100 years as been pretty much one way, from us to you. You are welcome.

Neil wrote: The balance of trade for pointing dogs for the last 100 years as been pretty much one way, from us to you. You are welcome.

Name one!

polmaise wrote:

Neil wrote: The balance of trade for pointing dogs for the last 100 years as been pretty much one way, from us to you. You are welcome.

Name one!

I can name the sires of the pups sold to the UK:

Red Water Rex
Miller's White Cloud
Miller's Silver Ending
Miller's Silver Bullet
Bazooka's Brandy
BanDee
Perry's Rustic Prince

Now you name one pointing dog to come here since 1912?

gonehuntin' wrote:Where pointing dog's differ from retrievers is in range. I don't like a far ranging grouse dog; I like them to be withing 100 yards. So I would never buy a pup from a line of dogs that were bred to hunt at 500 yards.

Now, excluding that, I look for the same thing in every pup, the things I can actually see and test for at eight weeks:

Intelligence.
Tractability.
Retrieving Desire.
Birdiness.
Boldness.

Those are the things you can see in a pup if you are given the time to test them.

If it's for a personal hunting dog, which they all are these days, I want a pup that loves being around people, that questions a new experience rather than boldly charging in, that loves carrying something in it's mouth, and that loves birds, even as pup. It's worked for me.

.................

to get back to the topic......
Good list. Your "boldness" is another word for independence? Tractability meaning malleable?

Neil wrote:
I can name the sires of the pups sold to the UK:

Red Water Rex
Miller's White Cloud
Miller's Silver Ending
Miller's Silver Bullet
Bazooka's Brandy
BanDee
Perry's Rustic Prince

Now you name one pointing dog to come here since 1912?

Is this a 'pissing match' ?
Are those the names of the progeny rather than the dogs .
How have the progeny performed in the field over here? I would be really interested to hear .

Neil wrote: Now you name one pointing dog to come here since 1912?

Darcy !

Robert & Neil, Believe it or not, the OP did not seem to be interested in what you two do or think about your dogs.. He did ask for some info about pups and what he should look for. Might be helpful if your personal comversation takes place by a PM and not cluttering up someone's topic.

Thanks
Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:Robert & Neil, Believe it or not, the OP did not seem to be interested in what you two do or think about your dogs.. He did ask for some info about pups and what he should look for. Might be helpful if your personal comversation takes place by a PM and not cluttering up someone's topic.

Thanks
Ezzy

Thanks Ezzy

I agree with those who think it is more about the expected ranging distances of a pup instead of the pup having preferences for one kind of game bird over another.

I hunt mainly pheasants and snipe with other game bird species only rarely being hunted for. I know before I release the dog to hunt for a species it is not accustomed to that the dog is likely to bump up a few birds or even a few coveys before it "gets it's nose in " on that species. Once the dog is used to hunting for maybe partridge or grouse or woodcock , the bumps will decrease in number and the number of points will increase.

I have more trouble with hunting ranges than I do with unfamiliar bird species. My Brittany likes to range out more widely than most people here think a Hunt-Point-Retrieve breed of dog should......a bit of an understatement sometimes !

Bill T.

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

Short answer ?
No .

Genetics and training, training and training!

Sharon wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:Where pointing dog's differ from retrievers is in range. I don't like a far ranging grouse dog; I like them to be withing 100 yards. So I would never buy a pup from a line of dogs that were bred to hunt at 500 yards.

Now, excluding that, I look for the same thing in every pup, the things I can actually see and test for at eight weeks:

Intelligence.
Tractability.
Retrieving Desire.
Birdiness.
Boldness.

Those are the things you can see in a pup if you are given the time to test them.

If it's for a personal hunting dog, which they all are these days, I want a pup that loves being around people, that questions a new experience rather than boldly charging in, that loves carrying something in it's mouth, and that loves birds, even as pup. It's worked for me.

.................

to get back to the topic......
Good list. Your "boldness" is another word for independence? Tractability meaning malleable?

Geese your sexy when you use big words! OK, I'll be nice. BOLDNESS...For a hunting dog, I don't like one that has no fear of things, that boldly investigates things the other are Leary of. I think it shows a lack of intelligence. He's to dumb to be afraid. Tractability I judge in the old way by flipping them on their back and holding them there. I then time how long it is before the pup starts to fight violently and how long he fights before giving up. Shows how hard he will be to train. I'm old . Malleable is to big a word for me.

One of the many things that I will do that shows intelligence as well as how mailable a young pup may be, is by putting them on the stakeout chain with other dogs. At 9-10 weeks old they can show you a lot of what they will be like as older pups or adults. I like the ones that fight it, but quickly figure out there's no point as it is a solid fixture.

Trekmoor wrote:I agree with those who think it is more about the expected ranging distances of a pup instead of the pup having preferences for one kind of game bird over another.

I hunt mainly pheasants and snipe with other game bird species only rarely being hunted for. I know before I release the dog to hunt for a species it is not accustomed to that the dog is likely to bump up a few birds or even a few coveys before it "gets it's nose in " on that species. Once the dog is used to hunting for maybe partridge or grouse or woodcock , the bumps will decrease in number and the number of points will increase.

I have more trouble with hunting ranges than I do with unfamiliar bird species. My Brittany likes to range out more widely than most people here think a Hunt-Point-Retrieve breed of dog should......a bit of an understatement sometimes !

Bill T.

Do your doga have the audacity to range 100 meters?

After my first time upland hunting in Europe behind German trained dogs, I know that, while I might like some of their lines, I'd never have a dog trained there.

SCT wrote:One of the many things that I will do that shows intelligence as well as how mailable a young pup may be, is by putting them on the stakeout chain with other dogs. At 9-10 weeks old they can show you a lot of what they will be like as older pups or adults. I like the ones that fight it, but quickly figure out there's no point as it is a solid fixture.

One of my best dogs is one that battled everything and everyone for the 1st year of it's life. All it wanted to do was free run and then free run some more. You turned the dog loose and, before you get the lead in your pocket it was 400 yards out and still foin lIke it was shor oUT of a canon. After an hour of running, you could get some training work in.

My current 8 month old pup is a hunting maniac and will be 500 yards out before you get your vest on. But, he figured out the stake out chain in 5 minutes and is perfectly quiet on it. I don't train my pups at all until they get to this point and then will very lightly nick him way out there just to get his attention to see which direction I'm going. As wild as he is, he is also very good at naturally handling to the front. He's a big (57 lbs) gangly pup that needs to grow into himself, but he's already a real bird dog. I only keep dogs that I would use for breeding and I think he will make the cut.

Steve

Wood Beak wrote:So i plan on getting my first bird dog puppy within the next year and I only hunt for grouse and woodcock, my question is When im looking for a breeder with puppies does it matter whether the dogs parents have been trained on pheasants and never seen a grouse in their lives? Would it be difficult to train the pup due to that or does it not matter? -David

There's a reason that there are recognized all-age lines, coverdog lines, versatile lines etc. There is more to the breedings than what species the dogs hunt. IMO your best bet is to find a breeder/breeding of the kind of hunting you want to do in order to increase your chances of getting the type of dog that will work best for you.

Not to say dogs can't/don't cross over from the intended purpose of their breeding, but why dilute your chances especially with your first pup?

When you are ready to look for a pup, you might ask around at the coverdog site, too.

Thanks for all the replies guys, will definitely take note of it, the breed im interested in is the Vizsla and im from Massachusetts and do all my hunting out of state