Whoa the dog or let him chase?

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rocksteady1
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Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by rocksteady1 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:27 pm

The situation:

We are hunting pheasant or quail and he gets too close and either flushes the pheasants or bumps the quail out a bush. Either way he was too close. Should I let him chase the bird/s or should I whoa him and make him watch the bird fly? In heard that they learn well by losing a bird thru their own action. Mind you this is not a situation where he has pointed and then creeped. This is over running and getting too close to birds before indication(pointing) of scent.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by cjhills » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:37 pm

Gonna need a lot more info. age and where he is in his training...................Cj

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Garrison » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:39 pm

How old is the dog? In my opinion, if it's a pup let him be a pup as long as he can"t catch the birds that he is chasing and there are no roads or hazards for him to get in to trouble with. If it is old enough that it should be steady, then it should be steady. You shouldn't have to whoa a dog around game, the dog should be trained with stop to flush drills so when a bird goes to the air he is standing still on his own. Much safer for the dog and more enjoyable to hunt.
Last edited by Garrison on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rocksteady1
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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by rocksteady1 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:39 pm

20 months. Gsp male. He is whoa broke. He has had at least 25 pheasants shot over him. Starting on quail now. Getting bumpy.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Time to go back in training. He is not steady. Get him steady around birds in a controlled situation first. ( backyard, launcher).

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Neil » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:45 pm

Sharon wrote:Time to go back in training. He is not steady. Get him steady around birds in a controlled situation first. ( backyard, launcher).
Yes. You have an untrained dog. Train him.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by rocksteady1 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:55 pm

Neil wrote:
Sharon wrote:Time to go back in training. He is not steady. Get him steady around birds in a controlled situation first. ( backyard, launcher).
Yes. You have an untrained dog. Train him.

Well it's hunting season so I'm not going to spend my days off doing that. In the absence of a controlled environment how else should I proceed? He has had a fair amount of training I feel like I'm just reinforcing it the correct way.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by shags » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:00 pm

rocksteady1 wrote:
Neil wrote:
Sharon wrote:Time to go back in training. He is not steady. Get him steady around birds in a controlled situation first. ( backyard, launcher).
Yes. You have an untrained dog. Train him.

Well it's hunting season so I'm not going to spend my days off doing that. In the absence of a controlled environment how else should I proceed? He has had a fair amount of training I feel like I'm just reinforcing it the correct way.

To be blunt, then why did you ask? Your dog is untrained. Not steady, not going to be steady doing it your way. And you don't want to spend the time to train him. What kind of advice did you expect?

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by rocksteady1 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:43 pm

Yes. You have an untrained dog. Train him.[/quote]


Well it's hunting season so I'm not going to spend my days off doing that. In the absence of a controlled environment how else should I proceed? He has had a fair amount of training I feel like I'm just reinforcing it the correct way.[/quote]


To be blunt, then why did you ask? Your dog is untrained. Not steady, not going to be steady doing it your way. And you don't want to spend the time to train him. What kind of advice did you expect?[/quote]

I was just looking for an answer to a specific question not a judgement on how I like to spend my free time. But thank you.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:54 pm

Did you do the training or did you have it done? Answering the question responsibly sometimes requires what you might feel is invasive discourse, but I don't think folks mean it that way. I am betting the dog is still pretty young and by your comments, the fun you get out of this is more the result than the process. I am afraid that in my experience your solution is either going to come in the investment of time or money.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by rocksteady1 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:00 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Did you do the training or did you have it done? Answering the question responsibly sometimes requires what you might feel is invasive discourse, but I don't think folks mean it that way. I am betting the dog is still pretty young and by your comments, the fun you get out of this is more the result than the process. I am afraid that in my experience your solution is either going to come in the investment of time or money.

Since your from Northern California also, I'll tell you Pierre urrutia did the training. He has him for 3 months. The dog is 20 months old. He consistently does well on phez but he starts to run into valley quail either in singles or coveys. We will walk along and he will go check out a big chapparal bush and bust some quail out the back without seeming to know they are there. He will then try to chase them for about 100 yards.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:08 pm

I would call Pierre and ask him how well the dog understands the concept of stop to flush. If Pierre is convinced the dog should be stopping I would ask him how safe HE believes it is to use the collar to roll him to a stop. By rolling I mean a very low e collar nicks until the dog stands.

I would also spend some time discussing the dogs behavior when he makes game. If you really concentrate I am betting your pup is giving some indication he is picking up scent. Pierre may remember some language your dog sends and you two might find a solution. Also...he was doing some guiding, I don't know if he still has wild quail property to access, but Valleys are tough... If he does, a one day trip with him and your dog is well worth the money.

Lastly...time, maturity and experience may solve this...but it isn't unheard of to see a dog 4 or 5 years old before it is handling wild birds when it's just fine on throw downs....as you know one takes all kinds of crowding and the other...well it doesn't

JG

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Soarer31 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:54 pm

rocksteady1 wrote:20 months. Gsp male. He is whoa broke. He has had at least 25 pheasants shot over him. Starting on quail now. Getting bumpy.
Am I correct in saying that he has no problems with pheasant but with wild quail keeps on running in and bumping??

For what it's worth I'd keep on taking him out on wild quail till the cows come home
If the breeding is any good the dog would should work it out

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Soarer31 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:01 pm

The only training that needs to be done is the "stop to flush and fall" and the retrieve if the dog is not a natural retriever
JMO

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:17 pm

Rocksteady -

The trainer knows the dog better than anyone here. That is whom you should ask how to proceed. I cannot tell you how you should proceed since I do not know how the dog has been brought along.

FWIW, if it were my dog, trained by me, I would say nothing, but nick the dog when it chased and when it stopped, I would go and physically pick the dog up and bring it back...a few steps if it chased 10 yards and quite a few steps if it chased 100 yards. The I would gently place the dog down, style it up and make it stand there for a good honest five minutes...by my watch. In the old days, that would be a two cigarette correction.
Then I would release the dog to a heel, heel it about 100 yards and then release. Please again, understand that is what I would do to my own dog, knowing how it was trained and how it will react to the correction.

I would do a bunch more things, but as I said...my dog...my way. I personally would not let one of my dogs get away with that because they would have been well steadied and whoa broke beforehand. With one of mine, it would be not a lack of training or experience issue, but rather an: "I'm gonna do it my way"... issue which I will stop and stop hard.

Training never ends...it just changes locations. Just because you are hunting that should not mean there is no training. When hunting you can, and probably should, let some stuff slide... most all of us do... but when you need to train, and correct, you have to stop hunting and go into training mode, especially with a young dog or you will have a mess on your hands, especially with a hard driving dog, which it sounds like just what you got.

Talk to your trainer.

BTW, when you ask for advice in an open forum such as this... you are gonna hear some things you ain't much gonna like, so don't go getting your shwartz twisted. People were telling you what they would do with their dog, in a similar situation. No more...no less. If that ain't what you want to do...fine. But every piece of advice you have been given so far was sound, and a good way to proceed. Your dog...your call.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Jere » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:32 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I would call Pierre and ask him how well the dog understands the concept of stop to flush. If Pierre is convinced the dog should be stopping I would ask him how safe HE believes it is to use the collar to roll him to a stop. By rolling I mean a very low e collar nicks until the dog stands.

I would also spend some time discussing the dogs behavior when he makes game. If you really concentrate I am betting your pup is giving some indication he is picking up scent. Pierre may remember some language your dog sends and you two might find a solution. Also...he was doing some guiding, I don't know if he still has wild quail property to access, but Valleys are tough... If he does, a one day trip with him and your dog is well worth the money.

Lastly...time, maturity and experience may solve this...but it isn't unheard of to see a dog 4 or 5 years old before it is handling wild birds when it's just fine on throw downs....as you know one takes all kinds of crowding and the other...well it doesn't

JG
Bingo!

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by ruffbritt4 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:15 am

Get the dog on wild birds as much as possible. As has been said, their behavior is much different than pen raised birds. It takes some time for it to click with wild birds.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:50 am

Letting a dog chase birds is for pups, not older dog's. It has never taught a dog anything and never will. Why let a dog chase birds until he stops on his own (some never do) when you can simply stop him in a week. Common sense.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:03 am

RayGubernat wrote:

Training never ends...it just changes locations. Just because you are hunting that should not mean there is no training. When hunting you can, and probably should, let some stuff slide... most all of us do... but when you need to train, and correct, you have to stop hunting and go into training mode, especially with a young dog or you will have a mess on your hands, especially with a hard driving dog, which it sounds like just what you got.

RayG
That is some of the best advice I have ever read.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by DonF » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:25 am

I'm not sure you understand what your looking at. In your first post, the dog was flushing pheasant's and quail. Then down the line you said he's had 25 pheasant's killed for him and then you claim he's good on pheasant's. Though I read somewhere that this dog is 20 month's old. What kind of dog is it? And you remark about, "this is hunting season" leaves me cold. I think aa good number of people on here hunt to watch the dog work, I do. I've made a lot of trip's hunting with only a blank gun, it's about the dog, not the kill!

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:18 pm

A good hunt is not measured by how many birds are killed but rather by the experience of being in the field with friends, family, and dogs and seeing the dog perform feats we don't always understand and the smiles on your hunting companions. Happiness is sharing and having someone or something take your breath away.

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Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by chrisss » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:35 am

I had this problem last season and what i end up doing was allowing the dog to bump birds and when he chased i would stop him with the ecollar. I only shot the birds he pointed and if he didn't point i would just walk away and ignore him. After the season i cleaned up his breaking and steadiness. This season has been a blast i am happy with his performance steady to point, flush and shot. The only thing about him is getting him to go back to the truck after pulling out a limit.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by setterpoint » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:44 am

i would let the dog hunt the rest of the season he might learn to handle his birds on his own you can finish training this off season but i bet them wild birds can teach him more than you can

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:15 pm

chrisss wrote:I had this problem last season and what i end up doing was allowing the dog to bump birds and when he chased i would stop him with the ecollar. I only shot the birds he pointed and if he didn't point i would just walk away and ignore him. After the season i cleaned up his breaking and steadiness. This season has been a blast i am happy with his performance steady to point, flush and shot. The only thing about him is getting him to go back to the truck after pulling out a limit.
You got away with that Chriss but I wouldn't recommend it - risky. The dog can easily think that the correction is coming the birds he's chasing = possible blinking.

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Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by chrisss » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:09 pm

Sharon wrote:
chrisss wrote:I had this problem last season and what i end up doing was allowing the dog to bump birds and when he chased i would stop him with the ecollar. I only shot the birds he pointed and if he didn't point i would just walk away and ignore him. After the season i cleaned up his breaking and steadiness. This season has been a blast i am happy with his performance steady to point, flush and shot. The only thing about him is getting him to go back to the truck after pulling out a limit.
You got away with that Chriss but I wouldn't recommend it - risky. The dog can easily think that the correction is coming the birds he's chasing = possible blinking.

That is true and i only considered it because i was exactly how tuff and hard headed my dog was. I tried about everything i could think of and asked around for help, read multiple books and nothing really worked. If he wasn't as tuff as he was i would have never tried it. Imo its all about reading the dog, if its a soft dog then i wouldn't recommend it but some dogs just needs a little more force then the usual and a lot thinking outside of the box.

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Re: Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:17 pm

chrisss wrote:
Sharon wrote:
chrisss wrote:I had this problem last season and what i end up doing was allowing the dog to bump birds and when he chased i would stop him with the ecollar. I only shot the birds he pointed and if he didn't point i would just walk away and ignore him. After the season i cleaned up his breaking and steadiness. This season has been a blast i am happy with his performance steady to point, flush and shot. The only thing about him is getting him to go back to the truck after pulling out a limit.
You got away with that Chriss but I wouldn't recommend it - risky. The dog can easily think that the correction is coming the birds he's chasing = possible blinking.

That is true and i only considered it because i was exactly how tuff and hard headed my dog was. I tried about everything i could think of and asked around for help, read multiple books and nothing really worked. If he wasn't as tuff as he was i would have never tried it. Imo its all about reading the dog, if its a soft dog then i wouldn't recommend it but some dogs just needs a little more force then the usual and a lot thinking outside of the box.


Using the collar the way you did was not being forceful and has nothing to do with your pup being hardheaded or soft. What you did do is gamble that your pup would associate the collar correction with the chase and not the finding or flushing of the bird itself. It is your pup and you can train how you want but just remember you were lucky to some extent and it was in no way related to your pups toughness. If we were to believe that then we also would have to believe that an e-collar is much more severe than other methods of training and that just isn't true. Much of training comes down to timely help and corrections and little if anything to do with severity of corrections or boldness of a pup.

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Whoa the dog or let him chase?

Post by chrisss » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:16 am

ezzy333 wrote:
chrisss wrote:
Sharon wrote: You got away with that Chriss but I wouldn't recommend it - risky. The dog can easily think that the correction is coming the birds he's chasing = possible blinking.

That is true and i only considered it because i was exactly how tuff and hard headed my dog was. I tried about everything i could think of and asked around for help, read multiple books and nothing really worked. If he wasn't as tuff as he was i would have never tried it. Imo its all about reading the dog, if its a soft dog then i wouldn't recommend it but some dogs just needs a little more force then the usual and a lot thinking outside of the box.


Using the collar the way you did was not being forceful and has nothing to do with your pup being hardheaded or soft. What you did do is gamble that your pup would associate the collar correction with the chase and not the finding or flushing of the bird itself. It is your pup and you can train how you want but just remember you were lucky to some extent and it was in no way related to your pups toughness. If we were to believe that then we also would have to believe that an e-collar is much more severe than other methods of training and that just isn't true. Much of training comes down to timely help and corrections and little if anything to do with severity of corrections or boldness of a pup.
After i read this i do agree with you and i made sure my dog wasn't going to associate the chase with the finding the bird or flush. I took lots of precautions. I was in college so i was able to train him just about every other day and every weekend, spent who knows how much on birds,equipment,time.

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