toe nail cutting training

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powbass@gmail.com
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toe nail cutting training

Post by powbass@gmail.com » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:33 am

My male 1 and 1/2 yr old GWP will not let me touch his feet. He is just too strong. I may be forced into taking him to a vet. there must be a way to train him,so I can cut his nails. I don't have any help available.

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NEhomer
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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by NEhomer » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:21 pm

My setter sits quietly while my wife's Yorkie has to go to the vet. He literally freaks out and I'm afraid I'll break his leg.

Good luck~

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:58 pm

I do it every week with a dremmel starting when they are a few weeks old.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by Sharon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:16 pm

That's the key . One foot a week only starting as a pup. Unless Hulk Hogan can come over, you're going to have to take him to the vet Pow bass.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by Spy Car » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:24 pm

If you are patient you could try to condition the dog to a trimming/grinding with a hand-held dermel.
There are two heads that are useful with this tool/ One is a sanding drum that takes replaceable sandpaper sleeves. The other is a cone shaped stone. The drum sander is good for bigger moves, the cone is easier for shaping (if you care).

The way to go is turn on the dermel, get the dog interested, praise the dog for interest, and pop a treat. Repeat until the dog is conditioned to associating the dremel with good things. Don't use it to trim until the conditioning is complete. Then slowly work on a little nail work. Stopping. Praising. Treating. Don't rush it.

It is far better to start this sort of conditioning in young puppyhood. But I would try the "easy way" now, since what's going on isn't working.

Clippers with an uncooperative dog can lead to cut quicks, and increased rebellion.

With the dremel don't apply pressure or leave on one nail too long (more than a couple seconds) as you don't want to cause uncomfortable heat from friction.

Bill

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by Mattu1665 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:20 pm

Takes two people in our house. I hold down the dog and tempt her with a large spoonful of peanut butter to preoccupy her while my wife handles the dremel. Works like a charm.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:38 am

Here's the deal. What happens if the dog picks up a thorn in its pad or some burrs in between its toes? How do you doctor a blown pad? You need to de-sensitize the dog, for its own good.

I'd teach the dog to whoa. Up on a table. Train the dog to the level that whoa means do not move, not even a little bit.

Then, with the dog on whoa, go over the dog with your hands and then its legs and then touch a foot and then pick up a foot. If the dog moves in any way, it is disobeying the whoa command and you need to discipline the dog for disobeying whoa. I would also teach the dog to lie down on the table and not move. This will not happen overnight of course and will not happen in two or three or four sessions. Be patient, be persistent and be insistent. You have a working dog. a working dog HAS to do what you tell it to do, or it ain't working for you.

As has been said, starting when the dog is a puppy is your best bet, but I will not have a dog that I cannot do anything I want to. That is simply not acceptable on several levels. Ultimately it is not safe for the dog, because you cannot do a thorough physical exam or routine maintenance. I need to be able to check out every single part of their body and do what is needed and they need to stand or lay quietly while I do it.

RayG

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:25 pm

Please explain discipline for moving a foot, or pulling a foot away from you cause it hurts. My dogs would all have a issue with that. However I only have to trim once in awhile in winter when the snow is deep so they do not wear them down...........Cj

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:53 pm

cjhills wrote:Please explain discipline for moving a foot, or pulling a foot away from you cause it hurts. My dogs would all have a issue with that. However I only have to trim once in awhile in winter when the snow is deep so they do not wear them down...........Cj
Cj -

It is simple to me. Whoa means(to the dog) do not move, not even a toenail. do not shuffle your feet, do not look around, simply...do not move. One should be able to whoa their dog, physically pick them up, turn them around and place them back down, without the dog moving on its own. When it is on whoa, one should be able to physically take a dog's leg and pick it up, move it...whatever. One should be able to whoa their dog, lay it down and have it lay there quietly and calmly.

Whoa means (to the dog) don't move. I lay my dogs down on a picnic table and go over them from stem to stern. They know not to move. On any given occasion I may scrape their teeth with a dental scraper, do their ears with antiseptic wipes first and then Q-tips, do their nails, paint up a blown, torn or cut pad or go over them, inch by inch, for ticks and remove them. It is all what you get the dog used to. They know if they move around, they get yelled at, and it takes longer.

About eight years ago one of my dogs got tangled up in some barbed wire and got cut up at a field trial. I will say that this particular dog was more stoic than most. After washing out the cuts, I asked a vet who was in attendance if he would stitch up the dog. The vet said he had suture material, but no anesthetic. I called the dog to jump up on a table, laid him down and told him to whoa. The vet washed the area again and started stitching. Ten or so stitches later, I released the dog to get up and I picked him down from the table. No big deal.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:55 pm

cjhills wrote:Please explain discipline for moving a foot, or pulling a foot away from you cause it hurts. My dogs would all have a issue with that. However I only have to trim once in awhile in winter when the snow is deep so they do not wear them down...........Cj
Cj -

It is simple to me. Whoa means(to the dog) do not move, not even a toenail. do not shuffle your feet, do not look around, simply...do not move. One should be able to whoa their dog, physically pick them up, turn them around and place them back down, without the dog moving on its own. When it is on whoa, one should be able to physically take a dog's leg and pick it up, move it...whatever. One should be able to whoa their dog, lay it down and have it lay there quietly and calmly.

Whoa means (to the dog) don't move. I lay my dogs down on a picnic table and go over them from stem to stern. They know not to move. On any given occasion I may scrape their teeth with a dental scraper, do their ears with antiseptic wipes first and then Q-tips, do their nails, paint up a blown, torn or cut pad or go over them, inch by inch, for ticks and remove them. It is all what you get the dog used to. They know if they move around, they get yelled at, and it takes longer.

About eight years ago one of my dogs got tangled up in some barbed wire and got cut up at a field trial. I will say that this particular dog was more stoic than most. After washing out the cuts, I asked a vet who was in attendance if he would stitch up the dog. The vet said he had suture material, but no anesthetic, just local numbing stuff. I called the dog to jump up on a table, laid him down and told him to whoa. The vet washed the area again and started stitching. Ten or so stitches later, I released the dog to get up and I picked him down from the table. No big deal.

If you do it right, you can get that kind of cooperation from most working dogs.

RayG

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by Spy Car » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:07 pm

Like Ray, I expect my dog to stand for inspection, stand or lay down (upon command) for nail trimmings, etc., and lay still and be compliant if I want to inspect or clean his teeth.

I like to condition these behaviors from young puppyhood in as positive fashion as possible. That's my preference.

The expectations of behavior are the same.

Bill

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by shags » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:34 pm

cjhills wrote:Please explain discipline for moving a foot, or pulling a foot away from you cause it hurts. My dogs would all have a issue with that. However I only have to trim once in awhile in winter when the snow is deep so they do not wear them down...........Cj
My dogs don't have to like it, but they must tolerate it. The day they start paying the vet bills is they day they can 'not allow' or 'have issues' with nails trimming, teeth scraping, ear cleaning, anal gland expressing, skin stapling, or anything else that needs to be done.

Early conditioning as others have mentioned is a great start. Compliance training as Ray G explains finishes it off.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:10 am

I was looking for how you train them to take all this, not what they do after they are trained. Mine pretty much let me do what I want, even pulling quills but they do not like it and I do not expect them to lay there motionless while they suffer. When the pain gets too bad they run around for awhile and come back and let me pull more. I just do not train my dogs to endure whatever pain I decide they need to endure. Personally, I think it is cruel...........CJ

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:31 am

How can laying still when in pain be anymore cruel than running around with the same pain. I think lots of people agree with you, however they think taking a dog out hunting where there are porkys is cruel. Interesting that anyone thinks that correcting the problem is cruel while not considering the source of the problem as the cruel part. I would not list any part of the act as cruel, since the dog will often go back and do the same thing over and over knowing they would have to be pulled.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:29 am

ezzy333 wrote:How can laying still when in pain be anymore cruel than running around with the same pain. I think lots of people agree with you, however they think taking a dog out hunting where there are porkys is cruel. Interesting that anyone thinks that correcting the problem is cruel while not considering the source of the problem as the cruel part. I would not list any part of the act as cruel, since the dog will often go back and do the same thing over and over knowing they would have to be pulled.
My question remains the same. How do you train a dog to the point where he " he knows better than to move a toe nail no matter what happens"? what are the consequences of moving a toenail. If you tell him whoa would he stand there and get ran over by a truck. It sounds quite threatening. I just like to know.
Telling people the dogs need to do this is a bit different than telling them how you get to that point. If the OP's dog would stand still and let him do whatever he wants he would not have asked the question.
Also the dog who needs his toenails trimmed is not running around in pain until you start causing the
pain. Causing the pain is not the cruel part. Some times you have to do things you would rather not. Stuff happens. Expecting and forcing the dog to endure without flinching is the part I disagree with.
I have duct taped dogs up until they could not move to staple cuts and remove quills. They howl like crazy and they would have moved if they could and I certainly would not blamed them or disciplined them for moving. I do not want a robot. I want a dog who can make his own decisions about what is best for him. Sometimes we disagree. I do not have a problem with that. I always win................Cj

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:48 am

Spy Car wrote:If you are patient you could try to condition the dog to a trimming/grinding with a hand-held dermel.
There are two heads that are useful with this tool/ One is a sanding drum that takes replaceable sandpaper sleeves. The other is a cone shaped stone. The drum sander is good for bigger moves, the cone is easier for shaping (if you care).

The way to go is turn on the dermel, get the dog interested, praise the dog for interest, and pop a treat. Repeat until the dog is conditioned to associating the dremel with good things. Don't use it to trim until the conditioning is complete. Then slowly work on a little nail work. Stopping. Praising. Treating. Don't rush it.

It is far better to start this sort of conditioning in young puppyhood. But I would try the "easy way" now, since what's going on isn't working.

Clippers with an uncooperative dog can lead to cut quicks, and increased rebellion.

With the dremel don't apply pressure or leave on one nail too long (more than a couple seconds) as you don't want to cause uncomfortable heat from friction.

Bill
Great advise.. I try to start young then graduate to a training table and start the "sacking out" process getting the dog used to being gently handled all over their body including the feet. Bribe with treats and they will come around.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by Spy Car » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:06 pm

As a postscript, I condition my dogs from puppyhood using mostly positive methods so that the routines of life, like trimming toenails, checking ears and teeth are second nature.

As more "formal" training starts, I teach commands that mean "don't move," but also have different ways and alternate commands that cue the dog to stand (or lie down) for thing like nail trimming that don't mean "don't flinch," but do mean stand at ease. Since it is bad idea in training to undermine formal commands like whoa/stay by being inconsistent (and letting a dog "move" under that command), it is best IMO to have the equivalent of an "at ease" command that allows a dog not to be rigid, but still cooperative and compliant to the grooming or health-care routines.

I like this sort of differentiation in most aspects of training, like having commands that distinguish between obedience style heeling (with an artificial flourish), regular heeling (which as to be perfect in maintaining position (but doesn't require the "exaggerated" style), and an informal heel where the dog stays at ones side in a nice relaxed heel. Having different commands, with different expectations gives all the commands clear meanings that don't get diluted by not being enforced.

When I trim nails, I use the least restrictive command necessary. The dog complies. I see no need for him to be "stiff." However, were it necessary for the dog's safety for it to be still——say it needed a stitch as in Ray's example, and there was no access to anesthesia——then having the dog trained not to move is imperative. But one can (should IMO) train for both, then choose the command appropriate to the situation at hand.

Bill

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by shags » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:29 pm

Agree, Bill. Around our house I use "wait" instead of "whoa" because "wait" means stand still a d I don't have to correct for little movements, whereas the dogs' moving at all on "whoa" would mean more work on my part :P

For nail trims and other doggy maintenance, it helps a lot to know good restraint techniques. There are ways to hold legs/feet that don't allow for much movement; same for messing with heads. Some tasks may require a helper beccause it's hard to hold the dog and do the work. Your vet could probably demonstrate effective restraints. Vets and vet techs are experts for that.

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:38 pm

cjhills wrote:I was looking for how you train them to take all this, not what they do after they are trained. Mine pretty much let me do what I want, even pulling quills but they do not like it and I do not expect them to lay there motionless while they suffer. When the pain gets too bad they run around for awhile and come back and let me pull more. I just do not train my dogs to endure whatever pain I decide they need to endure. Personally, I think it is cruel...........CJ

Cj -

I cannot answer for anyone else, but I start with a pup and teach it to trust me. Having the youngster trust me and want to do what I want it to do is HUGE. I do whatever I can to develop that trust and that bond. Along about 16 weeks of age, I put a pigging string on the pup and start doing heel/whoa drills in the yard. I will do these drills twice daily for about a year or so and then periodically afterward for the rest of the dog's life.

I will also put the pup up on a table and stroke it up. I then move to a wobble board(a 36" X8" piece of plywood loosely connected in its center to a sawhorse by one 1/4" carriage bolt) and stroke the dog up and hold it and allow it to lean against me so it will not fall off. The dog trusts me, so it knows I will not let it fall, and I do not. Eventually the dog learns to stand on the wobbly board on its own, but it VERY QUICKLY learns that any movement will cause it to fall off. This takes a good deal of time and repetition. I am not really happy with the dog's performance unless I can whoa it on the wobble board and then turn the board 180 degrees, sop the dog is standing, still locked up, in the opposite direction.

Once the dog as learned that standing still is absolutely what I want it to do, I test and tempt the dog to move in various ways. When it does move, I correct repeat and repeat.

I turn both the heel/whoa drills and the wobble board into a game just as soon as I can. I try to fake the dog out and "catch" them...rewarding them with praise when they execute crisply and laughing and repeating when I catch them off guard. I am having fun, they are having fun and they get better and better at "the game". If I ask one of the dogs if they want to "DO"... the dog will invariably run over to the wobble board and wait for me to put it up there, on whoa. Even my 12 year old, with a bad back end still wants get up on the board to pose for animal crackers. I have to hold her up there, but she wants her turn. If I pull out the pigging string, I have to give each dog a turn, or they will sulk.

I start laying a dog down on table when it is a young pup. It learns to lay down or it gets held down. If it moves, it gets put back. Repeat, repeat, repeat. I go over the dog with my hands, from nose to tail and everything in between. It learns that if it lays there and lets me do my thing, it can be a pleasant experience, as long as it lays still and it will end when I say it ends, which is ALWAYS sooner if the dog lays still.

To sum it up, the way I do it requires a level of trust and a level of obedience on the part of the dog and a good deal of patience, persistence and insistence on my part. I encourage and reward, with praise, the responses I want and apply the appropriate( I hope) pressure to get the response when the dog hesitates, avoids or refuses.

There is no quick fix or shortcut that I am aware of.

As Shags said, the dog does not have to like it, but they darn sure have to do it. commands are just that...commands. Obedience is not optional on the part of the dog.

This is a bit of what I do, and a bit of why I do it the way I do. I hope some of it makes sense to you.

RayG

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Re: toe nail cutting training

Post by bobman » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:19 am

I have nine dogs they always get a large milk bone after I trim their nails with my dremel....they actually line up on their own and jockey to be next LOL

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