What is a Problem

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:03 pm

In the past several weeks I have noticed that several new owners are involved with a new puppy and what I would consider a normal action or reaction that the puppy is involved in alarms the owner and they post to the forum about a problem they have with the puppy. In my mind, at least, you do not have a problem with the first encounter with any action of the puppy. Problems are when you find the puppy doing something you don't think it should several times. In other words, it is an unwanted behavior that has developed and has become the normal reaction of the pup, or we might describe it as a habit.

To put it in human terms, let say there is a small log in your yard that you tripped on and sprained your ankle while taking a short cut to your kennel. I don't see this as a problem but rather just an accident, The result is that we suggest that you not take the short cut in the future or at least be more careful. But five times now in the past couple of weeks you have continued to take the shortcut and each time you have tripped and hurt yourself. Now I am beginning to think we may have a problem. So now I get on the forum and ask what other people have done about this problem and immediately there will be many answers from both people who have experienced the same problem and some that haven't And there are many different solutions offered. Some suggest putting an e-collar on you and hit the button every time you trip, others suggest stimulating you with the e-collar to remind you to pick up your feet and when you cross the log without tripping they release the button and feel good because they taught you to pickup your feet. And still others say it is normal for people to trip on logs lying across the path and there will be a few that say don't use the short cut and even a few that might suggest you pick up the log and put it some where out of the way.

So many solutions to solve the action that most of us would have thought of if we had stopped and really thought about the incident the first time it happened before it became a problem. And then there are suggestions on changing behavior after it has become a problem. But I think most of us would agree that when the accident happened we should see what we can do to change the whole scenario so that an incident doesn't become a problem. And most of us would be able to figure out a solution if we just stop and think about it before jumping into the mindset that a simple accident is a major problem before it really is a problem.

I don't write this to criticize what anyone has done but rather as something we all need to think about. What is a problem and not just an incident? How do we keep an incident from becoming a problem? I think if anyone does this they will answer a lot of their own questions. But I also want to say if you have made this effort and you still have questions be sure to ask and realize we all have gone through this same process and we will be glad to help.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:11 pm

I have found today's well bred dog of any breed are so resilient and forgiving that anything short of repeated severe abuse will be shrugged off. Most accidents are just the incidents you mentioned, if not repeated.

I do wish the posters new to dogs would get a book, video, attend a seminar, or join a training club (something) to have some basic program to follow before asking question. We are very good of answering specific question to fine tune a program, but not so good at responding to broad ones like, "How do I get my dog to point?".

It would take a book to answer those, and if I am going to write a book, I am going to get paid.

randomnut · Post by **randomnut** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:52 pm

I'm a dumb new dog owner, with a 11 month old Draht. He is my first hunting dog besides a beagle, and my first dog in twenty years.

I'm sure I've asked plenty of stupid questions, but I truly appreciate everyone's replies. Confirmation that things are normal is what I think most people are looking for, but even I see some posts and think, it's just a puppy, chill out. If you don't want a certain behavior, nip it in the bud, easy enough. That being said, I've tried hard to screw up this dog I've got, but he persists.

GunDogAdventures · Post by **GunDogAdventures** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:20 pm

Great post Ezzy! Reading through it, I couldn't help but think about how much I've learned working with my dogs! My learning not only came from them, but also from so many different resources - the books, videos, magazines and thousands of electronic resources. I've gone out and worked with other people, put my hands on dogs, run other peoples dogs for them and asked others to show, handle, or hunt behind mine. I've ridden braces at trials, attended judging seminars, and gotten dogs out in various types of cover and on different game. All these things have taught me and I continue to learn each day that I am a part of this Bird Dog community of people. Thanks to all those wise hands out there that share their wisdom and thanks to those new to our community for keeping the conversations going. Learn from your dog, learn from others, seek out knowledge and most of all, enjoy the experience!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:53 am

When a keen beginner starts off with a dog he/she has nothing much behind him in the way of experience . I think we "age challenged" dog trainers too often forget just how raw we were when we first started and fail to see what a newcomers problem is.
When I was in my late teens and had my first spaniel I asked a very well known author and magazine contributor in person how the spaniel pup was supposed to know which birds to ignore and which birds were "game" for the purpose of having the pup sit to flush. He had done what he did for so long that he thought my question, asked out of the depths of my ignorance, was so stupid that he wasn't even going to reply to it.....So without saying a word he turned on his heel and walked off.
I had no idea what I'd done or said to offend him. That man had been my "hero" but he wasn't after that.

Nowadays I don't think my question was a particularly easy one to answer so I think that man was actually far more ignorant than I was. It is odd though how seemingly obvious things like the question I asked 50 years ago are not even mentioned in books etc. Authors assume the reader has a depth of knowledge that he maybe does not have.

Bill T.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:22 am

Trekmoor wrote:When a keen beginner starts off with a dog he/she has nothing much behind him in the way of experience . I think we "age challenged" dog trainers too often forget just how raw we were when we first started and fail to see what a newcomers problem is.
When I was in my late teens and had my first spaniel I asked a very well known author and magazine contributor in person how the spaniel pup was supposed to know which birds to ignore and which birds were "game" for the purpose of having the pup sit to flush. He had done what he did for so long that he thought my question, asked out of the depths of my ignorance, was so stupid that he wasn't even going to reply to it.....So without saying a word he turned on his heel and walked off.
I had no idea what I'd done or said to offend him. That man had been my "hero" but he wasn't after that.

Nowadays I don't think my question was a particularly easy one to answer so I think that man was actually far more ignorant than I was. It is odd though how seemingly obvious things like the question I asked 50 years ago are not even mentioned in books etc. Authors assume the reader has a depth of knowledge that he maybe does not have.

Bill T.

I am sure you are right and that is exactly the basis of so many questions. I have given a lot of thought over the years as to how we with some experience could ease the newcomers mind about the care and feeding of their new puppy and I think I am coming to the fact that it is impossible. But I would still like to try and I will continue to make what are very general comments about those subjects with the goal of showing people that their concerns may be just normal occurrences and not a problem they should be worried about. It may never happen but if there is a way it will be through education and I think you and I and other people with experience have to be the teachers.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:38 am

Good point Bill. And I have never understand how they know which birds to point either. I have had to train most to point woodcock, but they just seem to come out of the box knowing about gallinacious birds (or however you spell it).

Did have an intense conversation with a Judge that ordered my dog up for failing to stop to the flight of bird that came from 300 yards away about 80 feet over his head. I refused saying the rule was stop to flush, not flight. He argued everybody could see it was a quail, I countered with a dog does not scan the sky, I wasn't picking up, so you can discuss it with the other judge, but he is staying down.

So I will try to be more understanding with the less experienced, but that does not mean I buy the, "there are no dumb questions". But like your former hero, I will just walk away.

Thanks.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:15 am

This thread makes me think of my sister and brother-in-law who just got a new GSP. Neither puppies nor kids come with a manual (although there are a lot of books on both), and new owners have a lot of anxieties. My sister has called me numerous times since getting their pup with these "dumb questions." I have gladly answered them, and as previously stated, most of the time all she needs is reassurance. But a lot of her questions stem from a lack of understanding of what is "normal puppy behavior." For example, during the first couple days he barked when crated, and naturally, I received a frantic phone call. I gave my sister a few options and explanations (including a negative option) , and I let her choose her actions, but I did reassure her that new puppies bark when crated, and when their pup fell into their daily routine the "problem" would most likely end. Low and behold, he doesn't bark anymore and I've noticed her "puppy emergency " calls have reduced in frequency. I think they have just become more comfortable and understand better what is normal and what is not. Experience has helped her and her husband. They have been around my dogs and other dogs, but reflecting on this makes me believe you can't understand what is normal without that daily experience with a dog throughout all life stages.

And even for me, I have some experience and some knowledge (not the most nor the least), but questions arise despite my passion for dogs and training. The difference may be that educated guess that someone with more experience may have keeps them from panicking and helps them come up with a plan. Without any education (experience or training knowledge) there is no guess, just a pit of anxiety.

I'm with you though Ezzy... The easiest way to solve a "problem" is to prevent it from happening, but new owners have no idea what could cause a "problem," therefore are reactive by nature.

That being said, I welcome those "dumb" questions because we all have to start somewhere, and wherever that is, it's a good place to start. I wish everyone could experience the joys of owning a gun dog, but they can't without some support.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:36 am

I'm in the there are no dumb questions camp, we don't know the situation all the time, for instance have they ever owned a dog before or has it been an extra long time or since youth that they owned one and then was it a pointing or flushing dog, by just a question we just don't know! So I was taught as a youth that if you don't know or insecure, ask someone that does know! I just wish that when they ask they would put at least a state where they live so someone in the area or vicinity could be recommended to maybe by hands on, or seeing in person the problem to give a better assessment.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:27 am

Meller wrote:I'm in the there are no dumb questions camp, we don't know the situation all the time, for instance have they ever owned a dog before or has it been an extra long time or since youth that they owned one and then was it a pointing or flushing dog, by just a question we just don't know! So I was taught as a youth that if you don't know or insecure, ask someone that does know! I just wish that when they ask they would put at least a state where they live so someone in the area or vicinity could be recommended to maybe by hands on, or seeing in person the problem to give a better assessment.

Some one at work told me 20 years ago there were no dumb questions, so I retired since those were the only ones I was qualified to answer.

I do think that is one of the things we need to guard against though, as what seems dumb to you may just be because you have had so many people ask it before and we begin to think everyone should know.

The other thing is, I am not trying to say don't ask but rather would like to be able to make people think before asking as it is that ability to think something through that lets any of us come up with a solution. I just want people to get in that habit and they will become the problem solvers of the future. I may be wrong but it is what I tried to instill in my kids and it seemed to help. But this doesn't in any way say "Don't ask if or when you have a question you can't answer."

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:48 am

I've had Shorthairs for nearly 40 years. Even at that only training a dog every 5 or 10 years doesn't add up to a lot of dogs. I found that every dog was different. I've created problems with all of them. All different problems. Some were easy to fix some I never got fixed. I've read a lot of different books and watched a couple different series of tapes trained with 10 or 15 different trainers and handlers on everything from obedience, breed ring, gun dog trainimg. Most all of them contradict each other. And without the ability to read the dog. Understand the personality. Seeing what problems are starting to arise before it turns into a major problem. Understanding what is and isn't working with your dog and knowing what to try next. That is where the average person is sitting. I think if you don't train a few a year you may or may not ever become competent but I keep trying. I doubt I'm going to figure this out before I die. I'm sure glad i'm not a total beginner though. Think for today I'm just going to forget it. Take the pup out and go shoot a bird be it right or wrong.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:01 pm

The option to 'click here' at the top of the site page takes people to the Gun dog Directory,which has a host of further useful links to Trainers/organisations by location and further information that could be obtained by any newbie or someone from a start base to 'Gun Dog Training' can look. Perhaps the title suggests a selling slant rather than an information direction ?

'Perception' is another cause for 'confusion' ?...Is the forum/site for just any one who has a dog that happens to be a 'Gun dog breed' which I imagine google searches direct them to here amongst other references.
My personal 'perception' was that there would be similar people who already had 'Gun dog knowledge' of varying levels with different 'Gun dog Breeds' .
'Clarification' - I'm sure there are lot's of folk looking for the aspirations and heights of what a 'Gun Dog' can achieve in the field and that is commendable and has been said 'every one started at the beginning' . But, here is the 'But' ! ..Is this where the forum should be and if so perhaps it's just another dog forum.

Newbie's to the sport (I'll include myself when I first started) perhaps should think before posting one liner questions with no history that could probably be answered by themselves with 'Common sense' or a little thought rather than a finger on a keyboard as a 'first response' to an issue.

The talented and experienced folk on forums world wide who are most probably the best advisers are in decline (imo) due to relentless same old same old. ..Then 'Apathy' sets in .That can't be good for the sport .
ps. Ya need a thick skin in this sport ! ....It's all outdoors

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:26 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:That being said, I welcome those "dumb" questions because we all have to start somewhere, and wherever that is, it's a good place to start. I wish everyone could experience the joys of owning a gun dog, but they can't without some support.

X2

The day we stop showing respect and sensitivity to new puppy owners' questions , that's the day this wonderful forum is in trouble.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:16 pm

Sharon wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:That being said, I welcome those "dumb" questions because we all have to start somewhere, and wherever that is, it's a good place to start. I wish everyone could experience the joys of owning a gun dog, but they can't without some support.
X2

The day we stop showing respect and sensitivity to new puppy owners' questions , that's the day this wonderful forum is in trouble.

Absolutely!
How about some come back ? sugar cakes

...Love you really ...

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:16 pm

You're too old for me. Just post once in a while .

Runningdog · Post by **Runningdog** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:40 pm

1st time puppy(dog) owners may have it better because they cannot judge the pup to last good dog they had... :roll:
Also is it me or is more and more people wanting to push or finish a dog at such a young age?

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:12 pm

I don't think that is a more common problem now - just very common for new gundog owners.
When I started out I had my plan and was going to have a Champion by year 1.

Still waiting.
Takes time to learn to read your dog and proceed at the dog's pace.

"Dogs are happy to share honest truths, if we are receptive." quote Ugo

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:24 pm

I have never checked, but do you think people enter a car or tractor forum and ask how do I check my oil level? Or even a new parent's group and ask how to put a diaper on. I don't think so, as those are dumb questions that even a quick reading of the owner's manual or cursory search of the internet would answer. And if they don't care enough to learn those things they can not hope to drive a car, operate a tractor, or raise a child.

Yet without any thought or study people come here and ask how to get their dog to retrieve. That open ended. Owning and training a sporting dog is an important, serious thing, and demands a commitment to gaining knowledge and skill. We cannot hope to teach all they need to know in 2 or 3 paragraphs, although Ray can come close.

So you have told me you think I am rude, but if a newbie won't even invest enough to buy and read one basic book, any basic book, then take the time to construct a concise question with some needed backgrond, it is a dumb question. And we are often doing harm trying to answer.

That is why my answer is so often buy a book or video, attend a seminar, get a mentor, or join a training group. Then ask us detailed, specific questions as they come up.

Neil

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:57 pm

How do I check my oil level Neil ?
My puppy is on 'favourite stuff' protein level recommended food and doing great!
He does run off now and then but I'm thinking of progressing to Field trials.
Any suggestions on how to control his exuberance? He is great off lead when he is doing what he likes what is hunting.
I have been to obedience classes and he is fantastic at sit stay and recall .

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:01 pm

Neil, this forum IS a resource, just like a book or video or club, but it's unclear just how helpful we can be because of an infinite number of variables. Maybe we need a "sticky" or something advising new members how to get the most out of their posts when they have a question.

I still invite new members and dog owners to ask away. If people are tired of answering those questions, or feel the owner should know the answer, or feel the question is below them, then those members can just move on and respond to other posts. Participation is voluntary.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:22 pm

The situation of moving on or not replying to a perfectly good and new question from a new poster however new they may be because they are simply new is non productive for the person asking and Non reactive for the one not posting who has the answer.

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:49 pm

I think it's a function of the newer generation. We old folks are used to looking things up and researching for ourselves, and asking only if we couldn't find answers. Younger folks consider these types of forums as the place to look things up and research by simply asking the question. Even on the professional forums I participate on, we notice that some 'kids' don't google or try to find answers the old fashioned way - they just jump in and ask the most basic things.

As to new dog owners fussing over non- problems, that also might be a generational thing. Witness helicopter parents, micromanaging every move their kids make and every activity.

Each dog we have gives us the opportunity to become better owners and trainers for the ones following them. If we share our experience with new owners, we are (hopefully) making it possible for them to pay it forward to subsequent dogs and even to other new owners in their own time.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:08 pm

polmaise wrote:How do I check my oil level Neil ?
My puppy is on 'favourite stuff' protein level recommended food and doing great!
He does run off now and then but I'm thinking of progressing to Field trials.
Any suggestions on how to control his exuberance? He is great off lead when he is doing what he likes what is hunting.
I have been to obedience classes and he is fantastic at sit stay and recall .

Yep, that. No mention of the age, breed, location, birds hunted, goals, what program you are following, what stage you are in, what is the real problem. You type two paragraphs that would take me 30 pages to answer as I guess at the answers.

That is a dumb question. And there are many.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:32 pm

Perhaps we should limit the forum to old people who think they know-it-all, so we can just argue amongst ourselves?

Bill

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:54 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:When a keen beginner starts off with a dog he/she has nothing much behind him in the way of experience . I think we "age challenged" dog trainers too often forget just how raw we were when we first started and fail to see what a newcomers problem is.
When I was in my late teens and had my first spaniel I asked a very well known author and magazine contributor in person how the spaniel pup was supposed to know which birds to ignore and which birds were "game" for the purpose of having the pup sit to flush. He had done what he did for so long that he thought my question, asked out of the depths of my ignorance, was so stupid that he wasn't even going to reply to it.....So without saying a word he turned on his heel and walked off.
I had no idea what I'd done or said to offend him. That man had been my "hero" but he wasn't after that.

Nowadays I don't think my question was a particularly easy one to answer so I think that man was actually far more ignorant than I was. It is odd though how seemingly obvious things like the question I asked 50 years ago are not even mentioned in books etc. Authors assume the reader has a depth of knowledge that he maybe does not have.

Bill T.
I am sure you are right and that is exactly the basis of so many questions. I have given a lot of thought over the years as to how we with some experience could ease the newcomers mind about the care and feeding of their new puppy and I think I am coming to the fact that it is impossible. But I would still like to try and I will continue to make what are very general comments about those subjects with the goal of showing people that their concerns may be just normal occurrences and not a problem they should be worried about. It may never happen but if there is a way it will be through education and I think you and I and other people with experience have to be the teachers.

Ezzy,

Perhaps you could tell the world you are a Dentist and create a website with stars, so people will start believing you.

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:49 am

Interesting thread,
This is a Gun Dog Forum and you get newbies coming on here that are not only new to Gun Dogs,but new to owning a dog !...so they're basically jumping in the deep end and end up with major problems

Maybe there needs to be a sub forum for total beginners where questions are asked like ;.. How do I get my dog to heel? or how do I house train my pointer?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:21 am

With the criticism came some introspection.

I don't mind their basic questions as much as their total lack of specificity of their situation and problem. And their casual regard to dogs and dog training.

So don't mind me, if they don't care enough to give details, I will just walk away. Seems clear I won't be missed, I know I will not miss it.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:13 pm

and that is the answer for all of us ... if a thread annoys you , walk away.( and you would be very missed. You knowledge is very helpful often.)

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:42 pm

I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

Not to embarrass the OP from another thread, but to prove my point. You that responded without knowing the specifics must have a crystal ball. All I know is he has a bird dog and e-collar, and wants advice on how to use it. There have been 100's of thousands of words written on how to properly use such a powerful, possibly harmful tool; yet many of you answered with less than even one well constructed paragraph.

This man needs serious assistance or he is going to harm the dog. I will not respond until I know some details other than he needs more help than you can get on the internet.

And I get criticized.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:59 pm

A dog is a responsibility. A dog OWNER has the responsibility of learning how to train and care for that dog BEFORE he gets the dog. That's common sense. Then, if he has questions, this is the place to come to ask. It is the best training forum on the net. But that person has a responsibility same as Hunter education for young hunters and licensing a drive. They have a responsibility.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:15 pm

I think the OP made a well thought out request asking how everyone uses one, when and where. It wasn't specifically pointed out but I think that also meant how are the results. I am somewhat at a loss as to why an open end question would bother anyone. I get upset when someone asks but also tells you what they think at the same time. In those cases I see it very difficult to answer knowing full well if you don't agree with the poster you are going to be chastised for giving the wrong answer.

Knowing how forums work, I would think if you don't feel you can answer a post intelligently it would be easy and sensible to just go to something else and let the people who feel comfortable with it answer and there wouldn't be need to say you are going to respond. None of us are experts at everything involved in dog training, trialing, and hunting. Answer what you can and learn from the rest.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:03 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I think the OP made a well thought out request asking how everyone uses one, when and where. It wasn't specifically pointed out but I think that also meant how are the results. I am somewhat at a loss as to why an open end question would bother anyone. I get upset when someone asks but also tells you what they think at the same time. In those cases I see it very difficult to answer knowing full well if you don't agree with the poster you are going to be chastised for giving the wrong answer.

Knowing how forums work, I would think if you don't feel you can answer a post intelligently it would be easy and sensible to just go to something else and let the people who feel comfortable with it answer and there wouldn't be need to say you are going to respond. None of us are experts at everything involved in dog training, trialing, and hunting. Answer what you can and learn from the rest.

And I am at loss as how to be more clear.

Ezzy, how about you answer the question? Tell us how to properly use an e-collar for all breeds of hunting dogs of all ages for all activities and applications.

I am certain you will ignore the challenge, anything less than a 300 - 400 page book would be a disservice to the dogs. I doubt you have the expertise, even if you have the time and inclination. I know I don't.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:02 pm

I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

My philosophy in using an e-collar is it is nothing more that an extended Check Cord and it should be used in that manner. Due to the nature of Pointing Dogs working at long distances I put it on when ever we go to the field and many times even in the backyard. We have found through trial and error that the timing of a correction as well as a reminder that I am speaking to the dog is probably the most important part of dog training. If you combine timing with long distances then I think you will see the value of the collar. In all honesty it is the most valuable tool we have that works better and is much gentler and more humane than anything we have had to use in the past. As far as use of it, I seldom ever use it in the field but I train in the yard with it and because of that it is rarely necessary to use but is there in case of emergencies which occasionally do pop up. I do think you can break the use of the collar into two general fields. The first one is control while training or field working which is seldom used once the dog is trained and number two is avoidance training which is also not often but can be a setup in the yard like snake breaking but can also be in the field such as deer or porky avoidance. And my number one caution is you never use it when your dog is not in sight and actively engaged in an act that you need to control or change.

Number one greatest training tool ever developed,

Ezzy

This is my answer Neil, I think it answers what he asked.

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:42 pm

polmaise wrote:How do I check my oil level Neil ?
My puppy is on 'favourite stuff' protein level recommended food and doing great!
He does run off now and then but I'm thinking of progressing to Field trials.
Any suggestions on how to control his exuberance? He is great off lead when he is doing what he likes what is hunting.
I have been to obedience classes and he is fantastic at sit stay and recall .

4WD FORUM

Hi everyone,
I just bought my first four wheel drive, it's a 6speed manual with diff lockers and a PTO winch, I just recently acquired my drivers licence learning from my mothers Datsun 120y 3speed auto
Q: how do I use the 4wd gear knob ?
What are diff lockers and how do I use them?
What is a PTO winch?
I'm planning on going off road through the mountains this weekend and any help would be very much appreciated

A; give yourself an uppercut!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:38 am

ezzy333 wrote:
I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

My philosophy in using an e-collar is it is nothing more that an extended Check Cord and it should be used in that manner. Due to the nature of Pointing Dogs working at long distances I put it on when ever we go to the field and many times even in the backyard. We have found through trial and error that the timing of a correction as well as a reminder that I am speaking to the dog is probably the most important part of dog training. If you combine timing with long distances then I think you will see the value of the collar. In all honesty it is the most valuable tool we have that works better and is much gentler and more humane than anything we have had to use in the past. As far as use of it, I seldom ever use it in the field but I train in the yard with it and because of that it is rarely necessary to use but is there in case of emergencies which occasionally do pop up. I do think you can break the use of the collar into two general fields. The first one is control while training or field working which is seldom used once the dog is trained and number two is avoidance training which is also not often but can be a setup in the yard like snake breaking but can also be in the field such as deer or porky avoidance. And my number one caution is you never use it when your dog is not in sight and actively engaged in an act that you need to control or change.

Number one greatest training tool ever developed,

Ezzy

This is my answer Neil, I think it answers what he asked.

And you are egotistical, delusional, and perhaps even a little sadistic to think your paragraph response comes close to preparing the OP to use an e-collar properly. Please give some consideration to the poor dog.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:49 am

Neil wrote: And you are egotistical, delusional, and perhaps even a little sadistic to think your paragraph response comes close to preparing the OP to use an e-collar properly. Please give some consideration to the poor dog.

No kidding.

I think it is in exceptionally bad form for a Moderator—of all people—to start a thread putting down a newbie for asking naive questions in the first place. But then to encouraging the same poster to use a tool he's clearly not prepared to take up blows my mind in its wrong-headedness.

Poor dog is right. It is poor advice.

Bill

Editted for unacceptable language.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:34 am

Just might be good to read and then get some facts before getting in too deep. No. 1 is my post is not directed at any one as all I asked was how do we define a problem as I think there may be a difference between a happening, an incident, and a problem. Not sure how that got changed into bad advice for anyone. Well, really I do know but ...............

No. 2 is that I didn't see where the original poster on the other thread you all are talking about even asked about instructions on how to use an E-collar but rather asked anyone that did use one how, when, and where they use it and what were the results.

Bill, I need to check but I am not sure that my topic for discussion was posted before the one you are accusing me of being so inconsiderate with. And if you think it is in bad form for a Moderator to post on a topic then your ideas are sure different than what every Mod on this board has been told or does. But there again that has been discussed previously and explained to you but remains a problem for you and always will since there is no plan to change it that I know of. The Moderators are expected to be active of the board and stay abreast of what is going on.

Neil, sorry I disagree with what you are thinking. I read the post by the OP that you quoted and it seems to me he asked for a general description of how we all used a collar in training our dogs and did not even indicate he was wanting specific instruction on how to use one. I don't think he has indicated he even wants to but was just asking what and how other people used it so he could make a decision. Maybe we need to get that clarified before we get deeper into this also. I am sure many of the disagreements that take place on the forum is the result of misreading or not understanding what is being asked. This may be one of the problems we could address instead of getting upset over it.

PS- Bill, I checked it out and the post I started was posted 2 days before the one you criticizing me for picking on was posted. Just another example of letting emotions replace the facts and creating a problem that never existed.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:44 am

Ezzy,

I am not at all upset, and I always welcome your comments.

I am pretty sure when the OP asked for any thoughts on e-collars (his last sentence) that most certainly includes proper usage. But since it was such an incomplete question, maybe he wants to become a salesman or buy stocks. Which is my point, giving advice without specifics is not prudent.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:26 pm

Neil wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

My philosophy in using an e-collar is it is nothing more that an extended Check Cord and it should be used in that manner. Due to the nature of Pointing Dogs working at long distances I put it on when ever we go to the field and many times even in the backyard. We have found through trial and error that the timing of a correction as well as a reminder that I am speaking to the dog is probably the most important part of dog training. If you combine timing with long distances then I think you will see the value of the collar. In all honesty it is the most valuable tool we have that works better and is much gentler and more humane than anything we have had to use in the past. As far as use of it, I seldom ever use it in the field but I train in the yard with it and because of that it is rarely necessary to use but is there in case of emergencies which occasionally do pop up. I do think you can break the use of the collar into two general fields. The first one is control while training or field working which is seldom used once the dog is trained and number two is avoidance training which is also not often but can be a setup in the yard like snake breaking but can also be in the field such as deer or porky avoidance. And my number one caution is you never use it when your dog is not in sight and actively engaged in an act that you need to control or change.

Number one greatest training tool ever developed,

Ezzy

This is my answer Neil, I think it answers what he asked.
And you are egotistical, delusional, and perhaps even a little sadistic to think your paragraph response comes close to preparing the OP to use an e-collar properly. Please give some consideration to the poor dog.

No he isn't. He's trying his best to keep the peace here.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:20 pm

Spot on, Sharon.