Bird Dog Wars

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:42 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:
ACooper wrote:"If I don't get points on these dogs it could be catastrophic for the business" lol
Exactly. Maybe it's just me but a dog pointing a pen raised bird from 3 feet away and them thinking they have a field champion.... nothing special. Train said dog to do that on wild birds (eliminate the hunting competition part) and you have something I may watch.
I agree that wild birds are the ultimate test. They are extremely unforgiving.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by DGFavor » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:20 am

Get me some better sponsorship and I'll work at coming up with some better competition programming on native game! :wink: :lol:
http://www.vimeo.com/141240682

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:45 am

DG, looks like you're doing pretty well so far! Cool video.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ACooper » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:02 am

Does anyone remember American Gundog? Now that was a good show.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:13 am

Very nice for trialers, but not of much interest to the general public, which is what the sponsors need................Cj

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ACooper » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:29 am

cjhills wrote:Very nice for trialers, but not of much interest to the general public, which is what the sponsors need................Cj
It doesn't really represent most "trialing".

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by nikegundog » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:30 am

ACooper wrote:Does anyone remember American Gundog? Now that was a good show.
Yes, and I agree.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by GSP4ME » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:39 am

I just don't get it. People I know who couldn't care a thing in this world about hunting, love to watch dogs work. I would think it wouldn't be so hard to have good programming showing quality dog work with an emphasis on the dogs working and not so much on the pilling up of dead birds that would appeal to a lot of folks hunters and nonhunters alike. Of course there would be some dead birds - that's still part of the deal, but following it all up with a nice recipe for said birds could tie the whole thing up nicely and put a positive spin on our chosen pastime. I cant understand why theres not a market for that on channels we don't have to watch on roku or the internet or write our cable company begging for.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:08 am

ACooper wrote:
cjhills wrote:Very nice for trialers, but not of much interest to the general public, which is what the sponsors need................Cj
It doesn't really represent most "trialing".
I was referring to DG's video, not the show,...................CJ

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by pointshootretrieve » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:40 am

ezzy333 wrote:
pointshootretrieve wrote:All dogs should be steady to wing shot and fall to be allowed to run. An unsteady dog is a safety hazard
I was never run over by an unsteady dog, guess I was just lucky as I never used a steady dog when hunting pheasants.
Oh Ezzy only you :lol:

I am sure you have never heard of a dog being shot hunting either :?:

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by NEhomer » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:26 am

My setter pup totally took me out this year. We were changing directions where two logging roads intersect and he came around the corner too fast and piled into the back of my right knee just as I was placing my weight upon it. I went down like a bowling pin!

....that's why we keep the safety on~

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:21 am

pointshootretrieve wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
pointshootretrieve wrote:All dogs should be steady to wing shot and fall to be allowed to run. An unsteady dog is a safety hazard
I was never run over by an unsteady dog, guess I was just lucky as I never used a steady dog when hunting pheasants.
Oh Ezzy only you :lol:

I am sure you have never heard of a dog being shot hunting either :?:
I have heard of it but never seen it. One of the guys on the forum shot his own dog but it was a completely steady dog that had broke trial points. When a dog gets shot that indicates one thing and one thing only to me and that is a careless hunter who broke the basic safety rules of hunting. Not the dog, gun, or ammunitions fault but just the shooter.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by NEhomer » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:30 am

True Ezzy.

Remember when Cheney shot his hunting partner and the ridiculous spin the ranch owner put on it? The dude who got shot had apparently failed to announce his return to the group.

Cripes!

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:01 am

I have never shot a dog or person, but have had some close calls. I think having steady dogs and partners that are where they are supposed to be have contributed to my 55 year accident free safety record.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Collins1527 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:28 am

If it helps keep people interested in the dogs and keeping the sport going I'm all for it. We may as well forget about just wild bird hunting those days are gone.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:36 am

Neil wrote:I have never shot a dog or person, but have had some close calls. I think having steady dogs and partners that are where they are supposed to be have contributed to my 55 year accident free safety record.
I have an even longer safety record and I contribute it to common sense and probably a little luck also as I haven't tripped or fallen and had the gun go off, probably because it is always on safe. As far as hunting you never shoot a bird till it is well above the horizon nd if rabbit hunting it is well out in front of you. Just my rules that are followed by everyone that is hunting with us. :|

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by nikegundog » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:59 am

Collins1527 wrote:If it helps keep people interested in the dogs and keeping the sport going I'm all for it. We may as well forget about just wild bird hunting those days are gone.
You need to get out more.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Collins1527 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:07 am

I live in illinois. Farmers are are taking everything out. If there is a wild bird hunter will run them till they get him.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ACooper » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:27 am

nikegundog wrote:
Collins1527 wrote:If it helps keep people interested in the dogs and keeping the sport going I'm all for it. We may as well forget about just wild bird hunting those days are gone.
You need to get out more.

Not gone for me.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by rinker » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:51 pm

I suspect that the target audience for this show is not us. The hard core bird hunter/field trialer is such a small demographic, there is no way it would be profitable to produce a television show with us as the target market.

The video that Mr Favor posted is a great video and I loved it. The problem with something like that is that there is no way that a non bird hunter/non field trialer, could watch that and ever figure out what is going on. They might think the dogs, horses and scenery are pretty, but there is no way they could easily understand what is happening.

This show does not look like something that I would be interested in. I hope that the show will peak someone's interest in bird dogs and bird hunting. I hope that they might go on and figure out that there is more to it.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ruffbritt4 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:55 pm

ACooper wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Collins1527 wrote:If it helps keep people interested in the dogs and keeping the sport going I'm all for it. We may as well forget about just wild bird hunting those days are gone.
You need to get out more.

Not gone for me.
In grouse-less PA I still find enough birds to keep things interesting. Hitting double digit flushes about every other time out. With proper scouting you can find them. With the attitude that they're gone they might as well be, because you might be missing out on the opportunity to support conservation by thinking it's a lot cause.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ckfowler » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:30 pm

Everyone enjoys different aspects of working with their dogs just like many other things in life. You do not have to share my choices in order to not insult them. As humans we all have varying degrees of competitive nature, that doesn't make any of us better or worse as people. Some want leisurely walks in the woods, some do weekend or week long back pack trips, others thru hike the Appalachian Trail or climb mountains. Hopefully each enjoys their time and doesn't see the other as taking anything away from their own experience or pressuring their kids to another's way of enjoying the experiences.

I have done hunt tests, horseback trials, NSTRA and Tournament Events, enjoyed them all. I respect the time and effort folks put into STWS&F level dogs but do not see enough benefit from that to invest in it for my dogs. I still see hunting as having its basic purpose to find and bag game for the table as efficiently as possible. I enjoy the aesthetics along the way but still feel connected to the original intent so killing game is expected. I would be bothers if events had such a significant effect on the limited wild resources we enjoy so expect that pen raised birds for events are necessary. Event holders then just need to work to get good birds which is not impossible. Several less fortunate families benefit from game taken at our events and many of my coworkers, family and friends are introduced to game on the table.

Dogs are trained to perform in the venue chosen for them. Insulting winners in a different style than yours is like saying Serena Williams isn't an athlete because she can't play football. Drew Brees can't play tennis either, so what? Have had several well titled dogs in other formats that do not do well at these events, doesn't make them a bad dog.

Watch or don't at your leisure and enjoy what time you do spend with your dogs.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Runningdog » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

ckfowler wrote:Everyone enjoys different aspects of working with their dogs just like many other things in life. You do not have to share my choices in order to not insult them. As humans we all have varying degrees of competitive nature, that doesn't make any of us better or worse as people. Some want leisurely ...walks in the woods, some do weekend or week long back pack trips, others thru hike the Appalachian Trail or climb mountains. Hopefully each enjoys their time and doesn't see the other as taking anything away from their own experience or pressuring their kids to another's way of enjoying the experiences.

I have done hunt tests, horseback trials, NSTRA and Tournament Events, enjoyed them all. I respect the time and effort folks put into STWS&F level dogs but do not see enough benefit from that to invest in it for my dogs. I still see hunting as having its basic purpose to find and bag game for the table as efficiently as possible. I enjoy the aesthetics along the way but still feel connected to the original intent so killing game is expected. I would be bothers if events had such a significant effect on the limited wild resources we enjoy so expect that pen raised birds for events are necessary. Event holders then just need to work to get good birds which is not impossible. Several less fortunate families benefit from game taken at our events and many of my coworkers, family and friends are introduced to game on the table.

Dogs are trained to perform in the venue chosen for them. Insulting winners in a different style than yours is like saying Serena Williams isn't an athlete because she can't play football. Drew Brees can't play tennis either, so what? Have had several well titled dogs in other formats that do not do well at these events, doesn't make them a bad dog.
Steve Smith is looking for you! Well said....
Watch or don't at your leisure and enjoy what time you do spend with your dogs.
Steve Smith is looking for you! Well said

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:44 am

ckfowler wrote:
Dogs are trained to perform in the venue chosen for them. Insulting winners in a different style than yours is like saying Serena Williams isn't an athlete because she can't play football. Drew Brees can't play tennis either, so what? Have had several well titled dogs in other formats that do not do well at these events, doesn't make them a bad dog.
Although I agree with your sentiment and do respect however others chose to enjoy their dogs, your analogy does not hold. With bird dog games we are not comparing women's tennis to the NFL, but more accurately; the NFL to Australian rules football to arena football to college to high school to peewee; but it is all football. Just different levels, degree of difficulty and skill needed, but the same general game.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by NEhomer » Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:16 am

Very well said ckfowler. I have zero interest in competing but kudos and good luck to those who do.

My only general criticism is the safety aspect.

My buddy shot a cool video of me with my setter this past weekend. It was a stocked hen pheasant that flushed but then dipped low near my dog and I simply pulled up and let the bird fly. That doesn't make me a hero but I was pleased with that decision and will show this vid to a high school kid who I'm helping to mentor.

Safety first and then whatever floats your boat!

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ckfowler » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:39 am

Neil, perhaps your NFL, Australian, Arena football makes more sense though any analogy will have holes. The Peewee, HS, college reference might mislead people into thinking that folks with dogs in other venues want to be AA when they grow up which is simply not true. The skills demonstrated at that level are derived from wealthier quail hunters who want their dogs to range far in reasonably open country, stop at first scent of coveys while they keep up on horse or in drawn wagon. They want them steady thru shots as more birds will likely follow the first, are OK with retrieves or not as they might have another dog to do that while Fido moves on to find another covey.

Most grouse hunters or those hunting smaller private plots don't want AA range and most pheasant hunters want the dog under the bird when it falls and starts running so have no use for what would be considered skills in AA. Many hunters stress retrieve as more important than search as live birds are easier to find than dead ones. They don't all hunt from horseback or quad and don't want to have to hunt at an AA pace. They want a dog they can see hunting that finds every cripple, and often entertains their kids.

If we stayed just inside football for analogy, perhaps comparing Brees to Clay Mathews (linebacker) or Matt Prater (kicker) as each has different skills. Brees isn't practicing kicking because he doesn't value it, not because he isn't good enough yet and surely not practicing a lot of open field tackling as it could screw him up for what he really needs to do at game time. All great athletes that don't have to want to grow up to be someone else.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ckfowler » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:45 am

NEHomer, wise choice and great that you have on video as a teaching tool. All of the live ammo events I have encountered have developed responses to unsafe shots such that the competitor is not penalized for making a good choice. The bird is considers bagged and retrieved and they move on to the next bird. Being able to call your dog off a flushed bird (or steady till shot) is then very valuable and any that consistently do well have mastered this.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:26 am

I think what proves the NFL is at the top of the hierarchy is the money! What society values they pay for. With that metric the All-Age pointers and setters are clearly, by a wide margin the NFL. Some footballers, recognise they lack the skill and commitment to ever play at the top, and do not even dare to dream of it. They enjoy their level of competition for what it is.

On your NFL position analogy, they are all in the same game at the same time. Brees and Mathews do not play across town from one another on different sized fields with different rules.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:53 pm

I won't ever be able to see this programme, I have seen u-tube videos of a couple of pointing dog trials that kind of shocked me though. The competitors were running or at least walking far faster than I can run with loaded guns. I also did not like the way in which the birds were ripped from the dogs mouth when they retrieved. That showed no respect for the birds at all. Surely any bird, whether just released or totally wild deserves some respect ? It has just died to give me a shot and a retrieve .

Bill T.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:09 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Hopefully not another show with guys running in the field with loaded guns and half trained dog's.
Not a bad statement.
Competition 'breeds' it's own competitors for sure.
Whenever 'speed' is introduced to the equation often art or skill is diluted when talking 'Gun dogs' . It reminds of activities on our side of the pond like 'scurry's' and which have evolved into lucrative money earners but nothing to do with 'Gun dog work'.

Saying that ' ..'If it's speed with dog against game ' with a handler then perhaps the right combination of dog and game would be the ''Waterloo Cup'' .
But that is now banned over here.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ckfowler » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:19 pm

I have no idea what purses look like for AA or SD National level events. I know handlers/trainers manage to scratch out a living based on doing well. UFTA is different in that it is a member owned organization that has pressed from the beginning for sharing winnings so most Divisions pay out to top 10 or more placements instead of a winner take all format. Open Pointing singles first place cash prize is five digits, then sponsor prizes, side pot bets, Calcutta, etc. I know I would enjoy those tangible rewards were I ever to line all the planets and I am sure it helps breeding programs.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:24 pm

Shadow Oak Bo won over $35,000 the first time he won the National Championship, well over 1/2 a million in lifetime winnings and stud fees. No other venue comes close to the All-Age pointer and setter in dollars. That is a fact.

Enjoy your dog however you like, I do mine, but I do not delude myself in thinking I could be on the steps of the Ames Plantation (well, actually I have been on the steps many times, even have had my picture taken, but not as the winner).

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:37 pm

Neil wrote:Shadow Oak Bo won over $35,000 the first time he won the National Championship, well over 1/2 a million in lifetime winnings and stud fees. No other venue comes close to the All-Age pointer and setter in dollars. That is a fact.

Enjoy your dog however you like, I do mine, but I do not delude myself in thinking I could be on the steps of the Ames Plantation (well, actually I have been on the steps many times, even have had my picture taken, but not as the winner).
I would rather be in a field with my kids, grandkids, or for that matter any kid than to be on those steps. So many things more important than dollars unless you are starving. It is OK to judge success by dollars but I have found other currency that is much more valuable, but to each his own to quote an old Mills brothers song.

Ezzy

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:49 pm

Ezzy,

I agree completely. I would rather play catch with my Granddaughters than pitch in MLB. That we do not share the values of others does not lessen the truth of the hierarchy.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:05 pm

Neil wrote:Ezzy,

I agree completely. I would rather play catch with my Granddaughters than pitch in MLB. That we do not share the values of others does not lessen the truth of the hierarchy.
I have never gauged hierarchy by how much money someone is willing to throw at it. I do agree trials are the oldest and have a basic core that is better established due to longevity and marketing and not quality or ranking in any other way. Each venue has different goals but not necessarily better.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:33 pm

So you believe others think Little League the equal of the NFL? Community theater as important as Broadway? A Yugo as good as a Rolls? A 5,000 acre estate with a 10,000 sq ft mansion is comparable to a trailer on a lot?

We may not like our possession driven society, but it exists. So you and I may not put a price tag on things, most of the rest of the world does.

All things are not equal, supply and demand controls value, and All-Age are the rarest of dogs and most valuable. Not to us, but to others, those that might buy a Rolls Royce.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:16 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Neil wrote:Shadow Oak Bo won over $35,000 the first time he won the National Championship, well over 1/2 a million in lifetime winnings and stud fees. No other venue comes close to the All-Age pointer and setter in dollars. That is a fact.

Enjoy your dog however you like, I do mine, but I do not delude myself in thinking I could be on the steps of the Ames Plantation (well, actually I have been on the steps many times, even have had my picture taken, but not as the winner).
I would rather be in a field with my kids, grandkids, or for that matter any kid than to be on those steps. So many things more important than dollars unless you are starving. It is OK to judge success by dollars but I have found other currency that is much more valuable, but to each his own to quote an old Mills brothers song.

Ezzy
Money is a means to an end. If you want to pursue a passion at the top levels it takes a lot of time, effort, and yes money to get there. That's why there is big money at the top level of any sort of competition.

And I have no clue who the Mills Brothers are, but no matter what you value it takes money. Time is money.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:33 am

displaced_texan wrote:
And I have no clue who the Mills Brothers are, but no matter what you value it takes money. Time is money.
You just let on that you ain't qite as old as some of the old curmudgeons on this board...Like me. :) :)

The Mills brothers were a vocal group and a pretty good one at that.

RayG

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ckfowler » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:11 am

I think very highly of the trainers and dogs that compete at a National level in any organization. It does take a great deal of money, time, and talent to make it that far. I also enjoy my time spent pursuing other things and don't see myself ever playing at that level though perhaps later in life if things happen to work out that way.

I think that the recognition the show that originated this post allows does target a different population. Younger folks in today's society are attracted by faster, flashier things, nit that they have any copyright on wanting faster and better. A show following dogs doing 3 hour braces would look very different and appeal to a smaller target audience. The format also allows more of the average hunter to participate with lesser costs, no horse, trialer, professional trainer fees for several years to achieve any level of success, etc. It also incorporates the shooter's ability as well as the dog's which allows folks to feel more participation. I know that membership in these venues continues to grow so there is obviously interest.

The AA dogs may indeed be the Rolls or more likely the Indy car of the dog world and the rest of us benefit from the hard work that happens there. Not many people want to drive an Indy car to work every day and it isn't much help hauling hay so there is an appeal to a model that more closely represents that which folks can actually use. Many folks would have no use for a dog that could be successful at Ames and the folks that train for Nationals don't want to work on water retrieves. Each thing in it's place had value and beauty. Lots if family hunting companions that are not for sale at any price so we each value differently.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:53 am

CK,

Have you ever hunted behind a National Champion contender? Have you even seen a NC video? How can you say most have no use for them? I have hunted them and will always have a place for another.

Many are trained for water retrieves and all could be.

And I would liken them to an enhanced Humvee. If you saw Ames in February you would not think Indy car, the mud is often hock deep on a tall horse.

Please go to the effort to educate yourself. Your comments are like saying Drew Brees couldn't play peewee football. He and the dogs adjust and adapt.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by nikegundog » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:22 am

Neil wrote:CK,

Have you ever hunted behind a National Champion contender? Have you even seen a NC video? How can you say most have no use for them? I have hunted them and will always have a place for another.

Many are trained for water retrieves and all could be.

And I would liken them to an enhanced Humvee. If you saw Ames in February you would not think Indy car, the mud is often hock deep on a tall horse.

Please go to the effort to educate yourself. Your comments are like saying Drew Brees couldn't play peewee football. He and the dogs adjust and adapt.
Just struck me as funny that a dog could be of National caliber and not capable of picking up a downed bird. :D :D

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:16 am

Neil wrote:CK,

Have you ever hunted behind a National Champion contender? Have you even seen a NC video? How can you say most have no use for them? I have hunted them and will always have a place for another.

Many are trained for water retrieves and all could be.

And I would liken them to an enhanced Humvee. If you saw Ames in February you would not think Indy car, the mud is often hock deep on a tall horse.

Please go to the effort to educate yourself. Your comments are like saying Drew Brees couldn't play peewee football. He and the dogs adjust and adapt.
Neil, several of us have told you exactly how we feel and you continue to tell us we don't know what we are talking about and the only reason you are doing that is because we don't agree. That in itself does not say any of us are wrong, it simply says our taste are different. Please accept that and move on. We do not have to agree, we do not all have to drive Fords, we do not all have to prefer Britts, and we sure don't all have to agree that a dog that can and will hunt a mile from you is the end all of bird dogs. I still love you no matter what your opinion is of comparative value of different sports are.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:58 am

It is not that you disagree with me that I argue, but the reasons you give. The dogs at Ames do not hunt a mile from the handler, it is much too tight to do so. I respect a difference of opinion, it just does not seem unreasonable to expect those opinions to be based on fact.

I prefer Brittanys, but I appreciate the All-Age pointer/setter because I have ridden 100's of miles observing them. All of the opinions I have read here are not consistent with my personal observations.

But sure, I will let it go,

Neil

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by cjhills » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:12 pm

Neil wrote:Shadow Oak Bo won over $35,000 the first time he won the National Championship, well over 1/2 a million in lifetime winnings and stud fees. No other venue comes close to the All-Age pointer and setter in dollars. That is a fact.

Enjoy your dog however you like, I do mine, but I do not delude myself in thinking I could be on the steps of the Ames Plantation (well, actually I have been on the steps many times, even have had my picture taken, but not as the winner).
Do you know the amount of money involved in really top of the line show dogs.......Cj

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:01 pm

cjhills wrote:Do you know the amount of money involved in really top of the line show dogs.......Cj
More a lot more and that mostly makes Neil's point of supply and demand setting worth. It is a related argument though not completely germane to discuss whether or not the characteristics are right for function...ESPECIALLY when comparing purely show driven sporting dog breeders to pure field driven sporting dog breeders.

I avoid an argument about the worth of a venue in anything of performance, human, dogs, horses, etc... as it relates to the spectator or participant. That is personal. A mom may be a football fan as it relates to watching her baby play and not give a hoot otherwise. So in reality, her metric of the game is what it provides she and hers...

However distasteful it may sound and be; if this same mom intended to "produce" top athletes she would not focus her study on more common games or specimens in those games. She would measure for the more extreme and advanced characteristics in hopes of matching and carrying on with those genes.

When we speak of bird dog metrics, fair arguments are made and carried about the value of top AA dogs v top level NAVHDA dogs and many other venues in between. Competent breeders tend to look to these performers for good reason. However, in my opinion the format as discussed in this tv show makes identifying breeding characteristics very difficult. I cannot argue the entertainment value as I believe it is something our culture wants to consume, I don't agree but advertisers really do not care what I agree with. My biggest argument against it is the presentation of a sport that involves killing in a medium to the masses that many will find distasteful. This is a forum comprised of hunters and their are vastly different views here. Imagine what that looks like to non-hunters (forget antis, there is no moving their view) we need to be cautious in moving the opinion of non-hunters, their scale tends to only slide the anti direction. (like it or not killing is not an attractive business and most can accept it as long as they don't have to see it)

The argument against my opinion is generally to heck with it, this is America, it is a free country...the last of which is the reason turning the masses against you is dangerous. The constitution does not protect hunting with dogs, see numerous bands on hound hunting across the states. It is one man's opinion, but I do not find valor in defiance and bravado that can only lead to the inevitable outcome the behavior is expressed to avoid. The right to hunt with dogs is a fringe issue, it would be best to use strategy and intellect to keep it there in my opinion.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by nikegundog » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Who's subscribing to the Outdoor channel other than hunters...... No one, this appeasing the masses is nonsense.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:43 pm

nikegundog wrote:Who's subscribing to the Outdoor channel other than hunters...... No one, this appeasing the masses is nonsense.
Well lets hope that attitude and strategy is correct, wouldn't bother me at all to be wrong

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:07 pm

nikegundog wrote:Who's subscribing to the Outdoor channel other than hunters...... No one, this appeasing the masses is nonsense.
We don't subscribe, it is one of the channels in the package offered to all users.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by ckfowler » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:15 pm

Neil wrote:CK,

Have you ever hunted behind a National Champion contender? Have you even seen a NC video? How can you say most have no use for them? I have hunted them and will always have a place for another.

Many are trained for water retrieves and all could be.

And I would liken them to an enhanced Humvee. If you saw Ames in February you would not think Indy car, the mud is often hock deep on a tall horse.

Please go to the effort to educate yourself. Your comments are like saying Drew Brees couldn't play peewee football. He and the dogs adjust and adapt.
I have ridden behind some dogs that competed Nationaly but in breed specific venues, have watched videos of Ames, European trials and South African ones. I gut to watch Nolan Huffman and Buddy compete as well as several other dogs that play at that level in NSTRA. Have a good friend who judges AKC who had a dog on the circuit with one major win and several runner-up placements. The UFTA Nationals in Al runs same time as part of the. Ames sent and I have talked about running up but end up either competing or working our event. Would love to see dogs like Bo run, still don't think they would be the best tool for my needs. Hunted my dogs last week and commented to a friend who is a hard core hunter that my young dog was working the tree lines ranging 160-180 yards most of the time, out to 267 at one check while we walked the ridgetop fields. His response was "way too far" and he has Beeline Britts.

Have had several trainers tell me that they don't hunt their trial dogs while competing as they don't want to add in the falling bird. All of them hunt after fall season or when the dog retires from serious competition. Sure the dogs can learn to retrieve and most that have demonstrated they can learn the other skills do this well too. These top animals are fabulous tools, just may not be the tool everyone needs.

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Re: Bird Dog Wars

Post by Neil » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:57 pm

I have agreed to let this go and will.

But do want to explain right now and for the next month the serious contenders at Ames are "grinding their dogs down". They are running them for long periods in high cover with lots of birds, changing directions often keeping them in front, killing many birds, often working from foot. Dogs that 5 months ago were fading out of sight on the priaries at a mile plus are now staying in 40 acre fields.

Just watch a relocation on one of the Ames videos to understand how well they handle. When birds were scarce, I have seen them spend 5 - 10 minutes within 40 yards trying to pen a running covey with the handler on foot.

There is no other trial for any breed with such demands.

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