Gun Laws

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Neil
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Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:49 am

Should gun manufacturers be held liable when their products are used to maim or kill? All three Dem Presidential candidates say yes. If the ban were lifted, not one manufacturer could remain in business. Should car manufacturers be sued when a drunk driver kills others?

Should the Government be allowed to place citizens on a no fly list without due process to be deprived of their Constitutional rights?

Are you for an assault weapon and magazine ban?

Do you want to prohibit person to person gun sales? And not be able to gift or will your guns to your family? Do you support a National gun registry? Those are the results of closing the so called gun show loophole.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:40 am

Neil wrote:Should gun manufacturers be held liable when their products are used to maim or kill? All three Dem Presidential candidates say yes. If the ban were lifted, not one manufacturer could remain in business. Should car manufacturers be sued when a drunk driver kills others?

Should the Government be allowed to place citizens on a no fly list without due process to be deprived of their Constitutional rights?

Are you for an assault weapon and magazine ban?

Do you want to prohibit person to person gun sales? And not be able to gift or will your guns to your family? Do you support a National gun registry? Those are the results of closing the so called gun show loophole.
No, No, No, No, No, No, and No (hope I got enough).

Also worth noting that the Trump is in favor of waiting periods (didn't think the Clinton plan on gun control went far enough), and wants "assault weapons" banned. Dr. Carson wants gun control through "Smart Guns" as in everyone needs to purchase $5000 unreliable guns, and he also said that he didn't like people in "the city" having guns, but if you live in the country its ok. :roll:

Helps to know your candidates.
Last edited by nikegundog on Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:36 am

Neil -

I really think that the question should be this:

Are the manufacturer's of beer, wine, distilled spirits and automobiles to be held liable for the mayhem that is perpetrated on our roadways? If not...why not?

If one looks at the numbers, it is crystal clear that the slaughter of innocents caused by automobiles in general and by drunk drivers in particular FAR, FAR exceeds gun deaths, by all causes, including police shootings. And we are not even going to begin to compare the numbers of folks crippled and maimed, but not killed, by autos.

Why do we permit youngsters, below the age of 21 to operate what is essentially a motorized deadly weapon? Statistics will show how reckless a policy that has been... and continues to be.

If no one below the age of 21 was permitted to drive, several things would happen.... Traffic accidents and deaths would go waaaay down. The cost of auto insurance would go waaaaay down. The mass transit capabilities of the entire nation would be vastly improved and increased, especially in heavily populated areas, where pollution, overcrowded roads, costly police involvement in traffic control instead of preventing crime, are all huge issues.

There is absolutely nothing in the constitution of the USA about the right of someone to operate a motor vehicle, but NOBODY is touching that one.

I personally think that the NRA should start suing the cities, states and the federal government agencies involved, to address the carnage on our roadways. A good offense is generally the best defense.

RayG

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:47 am

First of all, maybe this should be in the "Off Topic" section.

Neil, I don't believe anyone wants to lose rights and privileges; your questions appear loaded.

But if you worry about a democrat becoming president, you only have the Republican Party to blame. They are yet to produce (or at least promote) a candidate that's not a sideshow attraction. The GOP is imploding. If this keeps up, you may not want focus more attention on candidates for congress because there will be no chance for the GOP candidate.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:01 am

Midway USA, half price on lifetime NRA membership.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/130715 ... membership

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by cjhills » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:21 am

I really dislike when the wind blows from the south..................Cj

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:23 am

Oh, Neil, I did some fact-checking and it turns out Bernie Sanders supported and continues to support PLCAA.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by setterpoint » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:24 pm

should general motors be held responsable when someone gets drunk and drive .can i blame the silverware for being over weight

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:52 pm

It is hard to tell what Trump is for or against this week, and he doesn't even know about what he might do next week; but I can't believe he would fall for holding gun companies liable for crimes done with guns. There are enough liberal judges and juries to award billions each year. That is gun control!

Clinton has said she would go further than Obama with Executive Orders, and that is a ways.

I have never been more concerned about losing gun rights.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:54 pm

setterpoint wrote:should general motors be held responsable when someone gets drunk and drive .can i blame the silverware for being over weight
Probably not, but you can still sue (and possibly have your case heard) for those situations. PLCAA stops those cases from even being heard.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:07 pm

Neil wrote:It is hard to tell what Trump is for or against this week, and he doesn't even know about what he might do next week; but I can't believe he would fall for holding gun companies liable for crimes done with guns. There are enough liberal judges and juries to award billions each year. That is gun control!

Clinton has said she would go further than Obama with Executive Orders, and that is a ways.

I have never been more concerned about losing gun rights.
As we ignore what the Constitution says our chances of losing all of our freedoms increase but if you handout a lot of free gifts to people they will ignore what is really happening.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by oldbeek » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:34 pm

Dems would take all your guns just like in Australia. No matter who is running vote Republican. If you are a hunter and do not vote and support NRA, you are stupid. Now I am sounding like Trump who is a complete idiot and un electable.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:10 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
setterpoint wrote:should general motors be held responsable when someone gets drunk and drive .can i blame the silverware for being over weight
Probably not, but you can still sue (and possibly have your case heard) for those situations. PLCAA stops those cases from even being heard.
So you support allowing the gun manufacturers to be sued for properly functioning firearms?

If so, I hope you own all the guns you will ever need in your lifetime. Even if they sold a thousand dollar gun for a hundred thousand they could not survive.

And you are OK with that?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:11 pm

Neil wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:
setterpoint wrote:should general motors be held responsable when someone gets drunk and drive .can i blame the silverware for being over weight
Probably not, but you can still sue (and possibly have your case heard) for those situations. PLCAA stops those cases from even being heard.
So you support allowing the gun manufacturers to be sued for properly functioning firearms?

If so, I hope you own all the guns you will ever need in your lifetime. Even if they sold a thousand dollar gun for a hundred thousand they could not survive.

And you are OK with that?
Did I say that? No. You're making assumptions Neil.

I was just stating facts.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:30 pm

So you have no position? Just on a mission to state the obvious?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:07 pm

I have a position; I choose not to share it.

It would appear I'm on a mission to inform. What's your mission? Is it to misinform? Or is it to create fear?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:07 am

mnaj_springer wrote:I have a position; I choose not to share it.

It would appear I'm on a mission to inform. What's your mission? Is it to misinform? Or is it to create fear?
My mission is to educate and to reveal those that fully support the Second Ammendment.

The gun - car analogy does not hold; no one is stupid enough to think they could get a jury to award for an illegal action with a car, but both sides know that there are enough leftists judges and juries to bankrupt every gun company in America. Otherwise the pro-gun would not have enacted the shield, and Hillary would have no reason to remove it, unless she planned to see them successfully eliminated.

It is sad really, that you do not feel you can defend your beliefs, even under an assumed name. I will defend mine to my dying breathe.

Neil Mace

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:25 am

Neil wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:I have a position; I choose not to share it.

It would appear I'm on a mission to inform. What's your mission? Is it to misinform? Or is it to create fear?
My mission is to educate and to reveal those that fully support the Second Ammendment.

The gun - car analogy does not hold; no one is stupid enough to think they could get a jury to award for an illegal action with a car, but both sides know that there are enough leftists judges and juries to bankrupt every gun company in America. Otherwise the pro-gun would not have enacted the shield, and Hillary would have no reason to remove it, unless she planned to see them successfully eliminated.

It is sad really, that you do not feel you can defend your beliefs, even under an assumed name. I will defend mine to my dying breathe.

Neil Mace
Neil, you brought up the "gun-car" analogy in your OP. Why'd you use an analogy that doesn't work?

And I will defend my beliefs when it's worthwhile. It is not worthwhile on this forum (on this topic), in my opinion.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:19 am

I brought up the anthology to show how asinine it is, how it does not work.

I really wish you had more courage, I would like to know how suing the gun manufacturers a good idea? How it would stop mass shootings? How it would do anything but drive up the cost of guns?

The next step is to hold individuals liable if their guns are taken and used in the commission of a crime.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:50 am

Neil wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:I have a position; I choose not to share it.

It would appear I'm on a mission to inform. What's your mission? Is it to misinform? Or is it to create fear?
My mission is to educate and to reveal those that fully support the Second Ammendment.

The gun - car analogy does not hold; no one is stupid enough to think they could get a jury to award for an illegal action with a car, but both sides know that there are enough leftists judges and juries to bankrupt every gun company in America. Otherwise the pro-gun would not have enacted the shield, and Hillary would have no reason to remove it, unless she planned to see them successfully eliminated.

It is sad really, that you do not feel you can defend your beliefs, even under an assumed name. I will defend mine to my dying breathe.

Neil Mace
If that is truly your mission, why have you never vetted the Republican candidates what so ever? Should one party a least have a Pro gun guy? Last election the Republicans put up a guy, who wanted "assault weapons" banned and gun control through user fees, this election a couple of the Republican front runners are gun haters and not a peep from you. :roll: Trump wanted assault weapons banned and long waiting periods, and all you do is defend him. :roll: You are far more concerned with partition politics than you are in the Second Amendment, it appears.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:02 am

Neil wrote:It is hard to tell what Trump is for or against this week, and he doesn't even know about what he might do next week; but I can't believe he would fall for holding gun companies liable for crimes done with guns.
That seems to be faint praise for Trump.

There is no question in my mind that the most anti-gun Republican candidate is better for us than the most gun friendly Democrat.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:06 am

Neil wrote:
Neil wrote:It is hard to tell what Trump is for or against this week, and he doesn't even know about what he might do next week; but I can't believe he would fall for holding gun companies liable for crimes done with guns.
That seems to be faint praise for Trump.

There is no question in my mind that the most anti-gun Republican candidate is better for us than the most gun friendly Democrat.
But it the primaries, any real Second Amendment guy should be vetting their own party, so we don't get another Romney. Yet you sit silently and say nothing.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:11 am

No one has explained the logic for suing gun manufacturers, so I went to Sec. Clinton's web site for answers:

Repeal the gun industry’s unique immunity protection. Hillary believes the gun industry must be held accountable for violence perpetrated with their guns. Hillary will lead the charge to repeal the so-called “Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act,” a dangerous law that prevents victims of gun violence from holding negligent manufacturers and dealers accountable for violence perpetrated with their guns.
Still don't get it, how can a manufacturer be negligent in producing a properly functioning firearm used unlawfully?

If any of the Republican candidates are in support of allowing them to be sued I would like to know.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:14 am

nikegundog wrote:
Neil wrote:
Neil wrote:It is hard to tell what Trump is for or against this week, and he doesn't even know about what he might do next week; but I can't believe he would fall for holding gun companies liable for crimes done with guns.
That seems to be faint praise for Trump.

There is no question in my mind that the most anti-gun Republican candidate is better for us than the most gun friendly Democrat.
But it the primaries, any real Second Amendment guy should be vetting their own party, so we don't get another Romney. Yet you sit silently and say nothing.
I have watched all the debates and the only clear anti-gun messages I have heard are from the Dems.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:22 am

Neil wrote: I have watched all the debates and the only clear anti-gun messages I have heard are from the Dems.
Its the Republican primaries, no Republican is going to argue gun control in the primaries. :roll: Yet their are clearly two gun haters, and you couldn't careless. It just shows you are more concerned with party politics than anything else, the Second Amendment is an after thought for you. If we lose gun rights, it will because of guys like you.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:31 am

nikegundog wrote:
Neil wrote: I have watched all the debates and the only clear anti-gun messages I have heard are from the Dems.
Its the Republican primaries, no Republican is going to argue gun control in the primaries. :roll: Yet their are clearly two gun haters, and you couldn't careless. It just shows you are more concerned with party politics than anything else, the Second Amendment is an after thought for you. If we lose gun rights, it will because of guys like you.
It seems you are more interested in finding fault with everyone else rather than state your concerns. Does this mean you are blameless as your last sentence seems to indicate?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:40 am

ezzy333 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Neil wrote: I have watched all the debates and the only clear anti-gun messages I have heard are from the Dems.
Its the Republican primaries, no Republican is going to argue gun control in the primaries. :roll: Yet their are clearly two gun haters, and you couldn't careless. It just shows you are more concerned with party politics than anything else, the Second Amendment is an after thought for you. If we lose gun rights, it will because of guys like you.
It seems you are more interested in finding fault with everyone else rather than state your concerns. Does this mean you are blameless as your last sentence seems to indicate?
Blameless, for vetting the candidates I would actually vote for??????? :roll: The Dems and running Hilirary, done deal, gun hater. The Republican front runners are a mix of Pro-gun and Anti-gun guys, that's were the discussion needs to be focused. Neil refuses to address the real cause of concern at this point, actually having ONE pro-gun candidate.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:41 am

Honest, I do care, please identify the two Repub gun haters.

Instead of exposing my many personal shortcomings, perhaps you could explain how suing gun manufacturers will help stop gun violence?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Tooling » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:44 am

I am a resident in Maryland & admittadly not exactly objective as it relates to this subject on two fronts.

As a machine shop owner it saddens me immensly to watch Berretta (who is right up the road from me) leave the state because their employees can no longer legally own the products in which they make on a day to day basis - thanks to Gov. O'Malley.

Although their manufacturing talent has been in decline for several years now due to a lack of structured training blown away by political wind, it troubles me to see manufacturing being dissected pc by pc in this country.

An attack on the manufacturers is simply wrong.

Berretta has been run out of the state and it is yet another incremental step toward the ultimate agenda..it is sad and should be blatantly obvious to those whom proclaim to be "reasonable".

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by nikegundog » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:52 am

Neil wrote:Honest, I do care, please identify the two Repub gun haters.

Instead of exposing my many personal shortcomings, perhaps you could explain how suing gun manufacturers will help stop gun violence?
I already have (post #2). As to your last, why would are argue with you over an issue we agree on?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:28 pm

I don't think anyone here suggested that suing gun manufacturers for the illegal use of a properly working firearm is a good idea... I surely didn't. I have plenty of courage Neil, including the courage to state facts and trust others to make up their own minds.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:41 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Neil wrote:Honest, I do care, please identify the two Repub gun haters.

Instead of exposing my many personal shortcomings, perhaps you could explain how suing gun manufacturers will help stop gun violence?
I already have (post #2). As to your last, why would are argue with you over an issue we agree on?
Names please?

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Meller » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:08 pm

This thread ought to unite the forum!

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:08 pm

No
No
There should be a procedure and hoops to be placed upon a no-fly list.
Not really....but neither bothers me overmuch should it occur.
No
No
No....but I am not overly concerned should it occur.

The Democrat candidates for president give me the willys for reasons well beyond the old gun control deal....Bernie is quite the odd goose.
The Republican candidates for president need to have the sense to self-winnow, that they do not, concerns me.

I have no reason to believe that any of candidates will eschew politics and paybacks once elected and for that, the future is cloudy regardless of whomever wins the election.
The cycle of leadership continues, with the trend ever downward.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by MATT4126 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:23 pm

Most of us are hunters and identify with each other as such. A forum like this would most likely be very pro gun so to pose such questions should produce answers that generally are in agreement. My issue isn't so much with the second amendment and what its reach truly is. My issue is more with elected officials who have little to nothing in common with me. I don't think Obama hunts or fishes, i'm sure Hillary doesn't and trump with a gun would scare me. So if we continue to elect candidates that don't promote our livelihood for a mere lack of understanding and experience then what do we expect regarding guns and laws. I would expect an erosion of the freedom to bear arms.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:09 pm

MATT4126 wrote:Most of us are hunters and identify with each other as such. A forum like this would most likely be very pro gun so to pose such questions should produce answers that generally are in agreement. My issue isn't so much with the second amendment and what its reach truly is. My issue is more with elected officials who have little to nothing in common with me. I don't think Obama hunts or fishes, i'm sure Hillary doesn't and trump with a gun would scare me. So if we continue to elect candidates that don't promote our livelihood for a mere lack of understanding and experience then what do we expect regarding guns and laws. I would expect an erosion of the freedom to bear arms.


Il always seems when you are dealing with people on the Internet they always try to take an extreme position of some kind. Some need to find fault with your position, the way you stated it, who you included, who you left out, or some other factor instead of agreeing even if they do and find it impossible to just offer an opinion without listing the faults they find with your position. I think it is human nature and when you do not have to look the other people in the eye it becomes easier to do. Just something we all need to guard against when we think no one is looking.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Tooling » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:09 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
MATT4126 wrote:Most of us are hunters and identify with each other as such. A forum like this would most likely be very pro gun so to pose such questions should produce answers that generally are in agreement. My issue isn't so much with the second amendment and what its reach truly is. My issue is more with elected officials who have little to nothing in common with me. I don't think Obama hunts or fishes, i'm sure Hillary doesn't and trump with a gun would scare me. So if we continue to elect candidates that don't promote our livelihood for a mere lack of understanding and experience then what do we expect regarding guns and laws. I would expect an erosion of the freedom to bear arms.


Il always seems when you are dealing with people on the Internet they always try to take an extreme position of some kind. Some need to find fault with your position, the way you stated it, who you included, who you left out, or some other factor instead of agreeing even if they do and find it impossible to just offer an opinion without listing the faults they find with your position. I think it is human nature and when you do not have to look the other people in the eye it becomes easier to do. Just something we all need to guard against when we think no one is looking.
That's actually the scary part..people are looking and the boldness of our public officials is becoming increasingly sobering to say the least.

Of course there are many young folks whom are engaged but the majority of the ones I know seem to be shaped by what seems "cool" in politics rather than a true understanding of the implications for such positions in the long run.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:47 pm

Meller wrote:This thread ought to unite the forum!
I think the liberty to own firearms should unite this forum.

I don't think that partisan politics unites anyone. Neither major party uses common sense, and I, for one, do not fit into either of those extremes.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by DougB » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:23 pm

My mission is to educate and to reveal those that fully support the Second Ammendment.
By whose definition of support. As a point of order, as citizens, we are permitted to disagree with laws, and procedures do exist for adding, altering, and deleting amendments to the constitution. They are cumbersome but they do exist.

My mission is to point out it is spelled "amendment" 2 "M"s total.

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Re: Gun Laws

Post by Neil » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:09 am

DougB wrote:
My mission is to educate and to reveal those that fully support the Second Ammendment.
By whose definition of support. As a point of order, as citizens, we are permitted to disagree with laws, and procedures do exist for adding, altering, and deleting amendments to the constitution. They are cumbersome but they do exist.

My mission is to point out it is spelled "amendment" 2 "M"s total.
The process to amend the Constitution is not "cumbersome", it was designed to require a super majority of Congress and then the states to change an important document. It has been amended 27
times, so sure, if there are those that wish to abolish the right to bear arms without infringement, they have a vehicle to do so. All they need is 2/3 of the House and the Senate, then 3/4 of the states to agree with them. Seems fair to me.

It is those that think they can just ignore the Constitution when it suits them that concerns me.

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