Recall Question?

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MSU Aggie
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Recall Question?

Post by MSU Aggie » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:42 am

Ive got a small problem that I can't find the solution to. My 15 month old pup doesn't come when called if she is off lead or no ecollar. With ecollar or check cord on there are no issues. We are working on all obedience this off season,so that should help some I hope. Any ideas?

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:54 pm

You need to install a 100% reliable recall in the yard...OFF lead...first.

I would suggest that you could start by doing what I do to puppies. 2 people, 2 checkcords and two pockets full of treats. A hungry dog helps.

The two people sit opposite each other with the dog in the middle. Eachj person has a checkcord and each checkcord is attached to the dog's collar.

Person 1 calls the do...ONCE. If the dog does not start to come immediately person 1 reels them in, BRISKLY, but not too roughly, with their checkcord. When the dog is right in front, a pat of approval or 2(no more)and a treat. After the dog has consumed the treat, then person 2 calls the dog...ONCE. The dog should INSTANTLY turn and head for person 2 . ANY hesitation whatsoever and person 2 uses the checkcord to "encourage" the dog. A pat on the flank and a treat.

Rinse and repeat until the dog is running from person to person...ON COMMAND... and then gradually lose the checkcords and then the treats. Start with only one person and one checkcord.

Remember...ONE command... issued ONE time must result in INSTANT, unhesitating compliance or you ain't done with that aspect and ready to move on.

I actually overlay a whistle command in the yard for come. I VERY SELDOM use it in the field, but I reinforce it in the yard every so often. As discussed, I insist on instant, unhesitating compliance. I have found that the dog will respond to the whistle command VERY crisply, probably because I do use it so rarely.

When you get the dog responding in the yard, off lead the way it should, then go to the field, put on the checkcord and INSIST on the same level of compliance. Do not take the checkcord off until you get that level of compliance and, if the dog regresses, even a little, slap the checkcord back on and go over it again, and again.

The recall has to become a FIRST response, an ALWAYS response, first time, every time. There is no shortcut, no magic trick, just stepwise repetition and insistence on a certain level of performance. Insistence and persistence while being consistent.

The ONLY time I will accept non-compliance to a recall is if the dog is on point. Birds trump jut about everything else.

If one of my dogs does not show up pretty quickly when I call for them, I "know" they are on point somewhere. So I go find them. The funny thing is... I think they also know that they had better be on point when I find them...or there will be heck to pay. The Garmin does tell a tale ....

RayG

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Fun dog
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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Fun dog » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:00 pm

You've done away with your training tools before the dog is ready. My dogs have excellent recall, but still, they don't leave the house without their training collar on. Why give them the opportunity to decide they don't have to do what you ask. 15 months is pretty young for recall to be firmly implanted.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:32 pm

Fun dog wrote: 15 months is pretty young for recall to be firmly implanted.
Really ? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRDcvNaCzow

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:27 pm

Fun dog wrote:You've done away with your training tools before the dog is ready. My dogs have excellent recall, but still, they don't leave the house without their training collar on. Why give them the opportunity to decide they don't have to do what you ask. 15 months is pretty young for recall to be firmly implanted.
I wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment. I think that the yard foundation for a solid recall should be in place by the time the pup is six months old and it should not be off the chceckcord in the field until the recall is solid...not perfect...but solid. When I squall for a 12-14 month old pup, I want that SOB coming back to me right now ...double time...or we are going to have a discussion about it.

My dogs absolutely have to do two things... whoa and not move a toenail when I holler whoa and they have to come...right now... when I call them in. I expect perfection when it comes to these two commands and while I will accept less than perfection without disciplining the dog in some circumstances, I will keep working toward that perfection.

RayG

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:03 pm

I'm pretty confident in 'making a dog do anything' it is physically capable of doing . But I believe that 'making a dog Want to do it' is training .
Recall is a conditioning not a drill (imho) :wink:

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by MSU Aggie » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:45 pm

95% of the time the ecollar is on when training or working, however when we run test no collar. It was somewhat ok thorough her Junior Hunter passes, but moving up to Sr. and Master is not.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:36 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Fun dog wrote:You've done away with your training tools before the dog is ready. My dogs have excellent recall, but still, they don't leave the house without their training collar on. Why give them the opportunity to decide they don't have to do what you ask. 15 months is pretty young for recall to be firmly implanted.
I wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment. I think that the yard foundation for a solid recall should be in place by the time the pup is six months old and it should not be off the chceckcord in the field until the recall is solid...not perfect...but solid. When I squall for a 12-14 month old pup, I want that SOB coming back to me right now ...double time...or we are going to have a discussion about it.

My dogs absolutely have to do two things... whoa and not move a toenail when I holler whoa and they have to come...right now... when I call them in. I expect perfection when it comes to these two commands and while I will accept less than perfection without disciplining the dog in some circumstances, I will keep working toward that perfection.

RayG
My question again. How do you punish the dog for not obeying? Also why do you need the whoa command?............Cj

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Sharon » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:56 pm

MSU Aggie wrote:95% of the time the ecollar is on when training or working, however when we run test no collar. It was somewhat ok thorough her Junior Hunter passes, but moving up to Sr. and Master is not.
You're saying the dog is collar - wise. Happens more than folks talk about. The e collar is a reinforcer of the established behaviour taught. YOU are the main reinforcer. When did you introduce the e collar? The dog needs to learn that YOU are in charge and he comes when called. Never call the dog in the house or anywhere without reinforcing the command yourself. Set up some situations where you can get to the dog if he doesn't come. Only call once , then move.

( I start my pups at 8 weeks with coming when called . Every time I call them , I get up and get them if they don't comply , which they won't that young. No correction , but they learn that come means come by habit. By the time they hit the woods "coming " is not an issue. The e collar has many uses, but I only need it for "come" when a deer is being chased or ...)

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by tobytx » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:12 pm

A dogs obedience should not be determined by a shock collar or any other training tool. If the dogs obedience is dependent on whether or not it has a shock collar on or not, you need to re think your training.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by tobytx » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:15 pm

MSU Aggie wrote:Ive got a small problem that I can't find the solution to. My 15 month old pup doesn't come when called if she is off lead or no ecollar. With ecollar or check cord on there are no issues. We are working on all obedience this off season,so that should help some I hope. Any ideas?
The dog is collar/check cord wise. You made too big of a jump before the dog was ready. Go back in your training and do not have the dog without one or the other. That makes me think why are you using both the shock collar and check cord? Maybe both in the beginning but you should not be swapping them out. What program are you following?

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:03 am

tobytx wrote:A dogs obedience should not be determined by a shock collar or any other training tool. If the dogs obedience is dependent on whether or not it has a shock collar on or not, you need to re think your training.
Shock collars were done away with years ago. What we have now are e-collars that stimulate and not shock when used properly. I had a couple of back operations in the past couple of years and the stimulator they used on me was much more severe than I have ever used the e-collars except for trash breaking.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Fun dog » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:38 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Fun dog wrote:You've done away with your training tools before the dog is ready. My dogs have excellent recall, but still, they don't leave the house without their training collar on. Why give them the opportunity to decide they don't have to do what you ask. 15 months is pretty young for recall to be firmly implanted.
I wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment. I think that the yard foundation for a solid recall should be in place by the time the pup is six months old and it should not be off the chceckcord in the field until the recall is solid...not perfect...but solid. When I squall for a 12-14 month old pup, I want that SOB coming back to me right now ...double time...or we are going to have a discussion about it.

My dogs absolutely have to do two things... whoa and not move a toenail when I holler whoa and they have to come...right now... when I call them in. I expect perfection when it comes to these two commands and while I will accept less than perfection without disciplining the dog in some circumstances, I will keep working toward that perfection.

RayG
I agree with what you are saying. I just don't think the ops dog is to that point yet.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by MSU Aggie » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:26 am

She was on a check cord until she would come with no correction needed, as well as other commands. Then transitioned to ecollar and as of today I don't need to stimulate her on any command when collar is on her. I fully believe she is collarwise, because I have no way to reinforce a command with out either on her. I am redoing basic obedience this winter. I use SmartWorks and Smart fetch for all my dogs up to pointer specific training. Then I work with a local trainer/friend. She's the first dog I've had this with, and I appreciate the suggestions.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Neil » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:25 am

In addition to following the program as you state:

For at least 30 days have the dog wear a dummy collar or the e-collar turned off 24/7. Then put an active collar on whenever you give a command to enforce compliance. After 30 days, put an active collar on and take it off several times before you give a command (use a check cord to reel him in). Using treats for compliance works for me. Sometimes don't take it off, just fiddle with it.

With today's lighter collars it is usually the prongs that makes them collar wise, try leaving it as loose as you can while still being felt.

All that said, I have not had a collar wise dog in 20 years. But keeping the dog confused should work.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:23 pm

This is much ado about nothing. Run the dog with a collar. What difference does it make. All my dogs will get collar wise if I would hunt them very long without a collar. the only way to avoid it is to train constantly and I have better things to do. I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick. If I ran her with a collar she would get over that but she is fine without the collar. It took some work to get her to function with the Astro.
Obviously if it is important to you that it does not happen there are ways to avoid it for awhile but the dog will need constant reminders.
I have finished many master dogs and most would figure out that they were not wearing a collar. Just avoid too many recalls. In a 30 min. test you should not need much handling. Getting the dog train to finish the master with out too many tries and to hunt with you will solve a lot of issues...................Cj

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:31 pm

cjhills wrote: I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick.
I'm a bit 'slower' :D

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:43 pm

polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote: I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick.
I'm a bit 'slower' :D
He's so smart we just can't keep up with him can we? Not sure that was helpful to the OP Mr Hills.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:23 pm

Sharon wrote:
polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote: I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick.
I'm a bit 'slower' :D
He's so smart we just can't keep up with him can we? Not sure that was helpful to the OP Mr Hills.
I Think it was. What difference does it make if a dog gets collarwise if you run with a collar.
It has nothing to with being smart or keeping up. I am sure I will probably not ever reach your level of intelligence. But I can fool my dogs into doing what I want and that is more important to me than insulting people on the internet whose opinion differs from mine. Thanks.....................CJ

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:44 pm

Have some 'Mulled wine' :roll: ..perhaps you already have ? :D

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:30 pm

I am no where near as knowledgeable about dogs as you are Mr Hills , but the poster said:

by MSU Aggie » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:45 pm

95% of the time the ecollar is on when training or working, however when we run test no collar. It was somewhat ok thorough her Junior Hunter passes, but moving up to Sr. and Master is not.

then you say :

"I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick."

Can you see where that might not be helpful to the poster and make him/her feel worse?

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:08 pm

Sharon wrote:I am no where near as knowledgeable about dogs as you are Mr Hills , but the poster said:

by MSU Aggie » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:45 pm

95% of the time the ecollar is on when training or working, however when we run test no collar. It was somewhat ok thorough her Junior Hunter passes, but moving up to Sr. and Master is not.

then you say :

"I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick."

Can you see where that might not be helpful to the poster and make him/her feel worse?
No, I can not. I hoped it would make him feel better. Most dogs I have seen get collar wise if you hunt them without a collar. In fact I can not imagine why they would not. The female I mentioned is a very good bird dog and passed 6 out of nine master tests with high scores. She is absolutely collar wise.
My point is it does not make a any of difference in her ability as a bird dog and there is no reason a collar wise dog would not pass a master pointing dog test. I have done it with several dogs. training the dog to correctly handle birds makes Master Dogs not e-collars.
We train natural dogs not robots. training on a dog over 3 years is very limited in our kennel.................cj

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:24 pm

cjhills wrote: No, I can not. I hoped it would make him feel better. Most dogs I have seen get collar wise if you hunt them without a collar. In fact I can not imagine why they would not. The female I mentioned is a very good bird dog and passed 6 out of nine master tests with high scores. She is absolutely collar wise.
My point is it does not make a any of difference in her ability as a bird dog and there is no reason a collar wise dog would not pass a master pointing dog test. I have done it with several dogs. training the dog to correctly handle birds makes Master Dogs not e-collars.
We train natural dogs not robots. training on a dog over 3 years is very limited in our kennel.................cj
Reckon them dogs can make a transition between a slip lead on and one off ? lol :mrgreen:

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:30 pm

cjhills wrote:
Sharon wrote:I am no where near as knowledgeable about dogs as you are Mr Hills , but the poster said:

by MSU Aggie » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:45 pm

95% of the time the ecollar is on when training or working, however when we run test no collar. It was somewhat ok thorough her Junior Hunter passes, but moving up to Sr. and Master is not.

then you say :

"I have a bitch that will not leave my side with a collar on. She is a master level dog trained without a collar and was totally collar conditioned at a year old. Intelligent dogs figure it out quick."

Can you see where that might not be helpful to the poster and make him/her feel worse?
No, I can not. I hoped it would make him feel better. Most dogs I have seen get collar wise if you hunt them without a collar. In fact I can not imagine why they would not. The female I mentioned is a very good bird dog and passed 6 out of nine master tests with high scores. She is absolutely collar wise.
My point is it does not make a any of difference in her ability as a bird dog and there is no reason a collar wise dog would not pass a master pointing dog test. I have done it with several dogs. training the dog to correctly handle birds makes Master Dogs not e-collars.
We train natural dogs not robots. training on a dog over 3 years is very limited in our kennel.................cj
We understand your point but it has little to do with the OP question. How do you get a dog through SH or MH test when they ignore you if they don't have a collar on?

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by cjhills » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:44 pm

Well, Ezzy, everybody does it. We train the dog. If you take the collar off for a 30 minute run, a dog that hunts with you will not need it. The dog has to learn he can disobey. If you do not give him the opportunity he will never know. You will not pass a master if you are hacking the dog ................Cj

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:18 pm

MSU Aggie:

Read this good (imo) article of "tips for collar wise dogs". It might be helpful:

http://www.gundogsupply.com/ecollars-ar ... -wise.html

also some previous comments on the gundog forum:

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... r+wise+dog

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Neil » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:46 pm

CJHills,

I checked my journals, the last time I identified a dog as collar wise was 1983, about the time the variable intensity adjustable at the transmitter collar came out (I think). So we must have different definitions of collar wise.

Except when in a trial my dogs always have an active e-collar on, now I can't claim they stay 100% broke, they are close.

I am confused.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by cjhills » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:47 am

Neil wrote:CJHills,

I checked my journals, the last time I identified a dog as collar wise was 1983, about the time the variable intensity adjustable at the transmitter collar came out (I think). So we must have different definitions of collar wise.

Except when in a trial my dogs always have an active e-collar on, now I can't claim they stay 100% broke, they are close.

I am confused.
Niel,
I doubt that you are confused.
We very well may have a different definition of "collarwise". My definition would be a dog who performs different with the collar on as opposed to with the collar off.
I am totally convinced that any reasonably intelligent dog would start ignoring your commands in the field if he was extensively run without a collar. Especially if he is given too many commands. We never know or need to know if the dog always wears a collar in the field.
The older dogs seldom (maybe never) need to be corrected with the collar. They all wear collars when they hunt. except the previously mentioned bitch. They all hunt hard and know what they are doing. All of my breeding dogs are AKC Master titled ,all are bird hunting dogs first and foremost and I am pretty sure all are collarwise. It does not concern me in the slightest.
To the OP:
If I upset you or gave you cause for concern I am sorry. It was not intended. I just see no reason to put unnecessary pressure on a dog to enforce a recall we may never need and will have to tune up for the rest of his life. Remember the best training tool is a 6" piece of duct tape
Work on obedience and your recall but keep the collar on. The dog will start doing everything you want because he is your partner. Not your machine. Every day you and him should be learning. If you let it happen you will get to a point where things just work and that is what makes it all worthwhile.
For hunt test training Shoot a lot of pen raised bad flying birds over the dog. Get him absolute dead solid on his birds, best if you do not run junior but probably you already have, when he is really solid and the only command he needs is a quiet "whoa". Birds control the dog. A bird in the air means stop, a bird on the ground means stop and the scent of a bird means stop. all until told to move. Take him out let him do his thing and get it done quick.
Spend your money on birds not entry fees until the dog is ready. He will just learn bad things that make passing more difficult.
everybody "have a nice day now" and a "happy New year"......................CJ

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Neil » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:46 am

Thanks, I think I understand.

I use collar wise for a dog that is only broke when the collar is on. One that will take birds out when ran in a trial. Those that know instantly they can get by with indiscretions, not those that backslide after a period of days.

Hope you have a great year.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:06 am

Polmaise mentioned the checkcord. For those of us fond of proclaiming the e-collar an extension of the checkcord; collar wise would have to be synonymous with checkcord wise, a more advanced yet still an incomplete step in training. Many times a collar wise dog has been rushed through the process in my opinion. I try to follow most e-collar corrections with some type of compulsory control, meaning I get my hands on the dog after the collar has notified them of their errant ways, in this manner I believe they associate their transgression with the possibility that they will also receive a correction from me. It is important to make it an appropriate correction for the scenario, a matter of reading and understanding the situation and the dog.

If a dog continues to challenge the situation and training process, we go back a few grades. A dog that will not recall goes back on a checkcord, or in a fenced area that it can be caught in, taken many different places and presented with distractions, other dogs, kids, etc... and recall is enforced, the e-collar re-overlayed on checkcord compulsion, variable enforcement up to and including an "bleep" whoopin if necessary (and it rarely is)...just flat made to comply to the command. I am dealing with this very issue this morning, I will try to describe briefly how it happened.

A friend is a guide and I gave him a dog. He is a hard core chukar hunter, he and his wife have no children. They love their dogs, always a sporting dog and they have a great life blended with wild birds and a lot of couch time. My friend is gone 6 months of the year guiding on big game throughout the west and his brother and her girlfriend (also childless) live with him. Three of four adults in the home have no interest in dog training but are really big on dog loving, and while my friend is a learned amateur trainer a great deal of the dogs' time and experiences are spent making their own decisions, enjoying their freedom and getting very inconsistent re-enforcement. The result of this is a young dog that has spent his adolescence learning not simply that their are rules, but actually learning when the rules may and may not apply. This does not make breaking the dog easier or more pleasant for either of us.

I don't believe we as humans are as realistic as we should be regarding the compromise and discipline we need to have to develop the best bird dogs. We project our emotions on the dogs and justify that was is pleasing us is also pleasing the dog. A concept that may be true but an environment that is not necessarily exclusive or incrementally better for a dogs happiness. A dog that gets consistency is healthier, happier and safer in my opinion, and it isn't a life sacrifice for them...only us.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:17 pm

I still do what I've done for the last 45 years; pelt them with a marble. It's part of "De-Bolting" a dog. Once the dog is solid in obedience with the lead and cc, I turn them loose in an enclosed yard and command "HERE". If they immediately don't come, I whack them in the rear end with a marble and command HERE again. They probably won't. Usually about marble number 99 they give up and come to you, tail between legs. I don't care if their tail is between their legs. When I command HERE, I want the dog to come and come fast. If they come because they want to, that's fine. If they come out of fear, that's fine. Point is, when I command HERE, I want them HERE anyplace, anytime, anywhere. Oh yah, I'm deadly with a sling shot.

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Re: Recall Question?

Post by Finelinegundogs » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:33 am

There are a few who replied who have tons of experience and to me there is zero chance this dog is collar wise. I have only had one that as collar wise and that was when I attempted to run him at nstra trials and it was only because this dog knew the birds weren't supposed to be out in the field, but in the cover around the edges so after he had 2-3 finds in the field, he would go here he knew the birds were and he'd point another 3-7 birds out of bounds. He was a bird finding machine and nstra wasn't ever going to be his game due to being collar wise and after seeking out some of the wisest in that venue I could when I came to accept there was no changing him.

I would go back to square one and establish this conditioned response on the check cord and then the collar simply won't matter. I run both my Strut pups, 23 months now without collars pretty much all the time and though there are bred to be big running dogs, a lot of time was spent during the key areas of their training...most without an e collar but even now, when I need to train it is used without hesitation but that is rarely. Too often I see folks not having the patience and truly getting their dogs broke as to me if one spends enough time, has the patience and is consistent with their training, they end up with a broke dog, not one that as rushed to get them hunting quicker. I also agree with the comment on the 6" piece of tape which is so tough for so many.

Happy New Year y'all!

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