Ferrell Miller's Words
- Stoneface
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Ferrell Miller's Words
There's a new video up on YouTube of Ferrell Miller, you can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN9Bj7x0jx4
A friend and I went to a trial yesterday and I mentioned the video to him. He said he'd gone to a seminar way back in the day and Ferrell said something that always stuck with him. Said he'd crawl up in a tree or the roof of a barn or some other place real high. Then someone would let a puppy in. He'd call for the puppy, using his name, and the puppy had to look at him. He only get two or three chances to do it or he was done. He did this to see which puppies can find him and know where he's at if they are a ways off. This guy said Ferrell also told him he never introduced a dog to birds until the dog was older. There was a famous dog (maybe Miller's Chief, but I can't remember) was didn't see a bird until he was three years old.
Another friend went and trained with Ferrell a couple weeks ago. He said Ferrell was trying to call a young dog that would come. Ferrell hit him with the eCollar and brought him in real fast. My friend said, "The dog could have been on point." Ferrell replied, "I don't care. If I call a dog I want him to get back to me and in a hurry."
Does anyone else have any lessons or words from Ferrell they can post?
A friend and I went to a trial yesterday and I mentioned the video to him. He said he'd gone to a seminar way back in the day and Ferrell said something that always stuck with him. Said he'd crawl up in a tree or the roof of a barn or some other place real high. Then someone would let a puppy in. He'd call for the puppy, using his name, and the puppy had to look at him. He only get two or three chances to do it or he was done. He did this to see which puppies can find him and know where he's at if they are a ways off. This guy said Ferrell also told him he never introduced a dog to birds until the dog was older. There was a famous dog (maybe Miller's Chief, but I can't remember) was didn't see a bird until he was three years old.
Another friend went and trained with Ferrell a couple weeks ago. He said Ferrell was trying to call a young dog that would come. Ferrell hit him with the eCollar and brought him in real fast. My friend said, "The dog could have been on point." Ferrell replied, "I don't care. If I call a dog I want him to get back to me and in a hurry."
Does anyone else have any lessons or words from Ferrell they can post?
- greg jacobs
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
That was really interesting. Gained a lot of respect for the person and his honesty. As a shorthair person I've always believed in the infusion of pointer blood. The traits are obvious to me. I know this is a taboo subject. Personally I've never been offended by this or what he and others did.
- birddogger
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
First of all, I am no Ferrell Miller. That being said, at my age I am not climbing a tree or anything else just to see if a puppy can find me The other thing is if I call one of my dogs and he doesn't respond, I know he is on point somewhere and I don't want him leaving, I am talking about a trained dog which I have confidence in. This is not to dispute Miller, it is just what I have always wanted in my dogs. I know what I want in my dogs and not what somebody, regardless of his/her credentials telling me what I should want. Again, no disrespect to Ferrell Miller and I am always open to different ways of doing things, and I just can't go along with this one. However, I do not field trial and that may be a different thing altogether.
Respectfully,
Charlie
Respectfully,
Charlie
- kninebirddog
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
I went ahead and Purchased his DVD on common sense training. I found it extremely interesting including his use of the flank Collar using an older model of the Tritronics
I liked a lot of what I watched both on the DVD & theYoutube
I liked a lot of what I watched both on the DVD & theYoutube
Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
3 years before seeing a bird?!
Cripes, if you wait until the dog's dead you can get really expect him to be staunch.
Cripes, if you wait until the dog's dead you can get really expect him to be staunch.
- Stoneface
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
I know my dog Cinna was mostly ran. Didn't hardly see a bird until she about two to two and a half and is staunch as heck. Since I've broken her he's gone on one bird of mine. I tell people to make sure a dog is well socialized and well ran before they bring him to me. I don't care about bird contact, though, outside of wild bird contact.NEhomer wrote:3 years before seeing a bird?!
Cripes, if you wait until the dog's dead you can get really expect him to be staunch.
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
NEhomer wrote:3 years before seeing a bird?!
Cripes, if you wait until the dog's dead you can get really expect him to be staunch.
Y'all need to remember that "misdirection" is a common practice among competitive field trailers. Always has been. Just like manufacturing phony pedigrees. Been going on for a loooong time.
Advising someone to do something that will set back their training or otherwise impede their ability to effectively compete against them or their associates is a normal practice in many competitive fields of endeavor. Field trials, especially at the highest levels are FIERCELY competitive.
Mr. Miller was, and still is... among the most competitive all age field trailers there are...or ever have been.
Watch what they do... do what they do. Be wary of what they say, especially if it differs from what they do.
RayG
Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
Good post Ray. I'll keep running my pups at a young age and on wild birds and they'll keep being "staunch" before their a year old. I don't say a word to my pups around birds and most are holding for me to flush by 6-9 months old.
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
Just fyi the man has a sense of humor.
Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
"Said he'd crawl up in a tree or the roof of a barn or some other place real high. Then someone would let a puppy in. He'd call for the puppy, using his name, and the puppy had to look at him."
Years ago in an interview, I remember Mr. Miller saying something similar to this. He said that when he was running little puppies that he would step behind a tree or into a barn door and 'hide' from the puppies. He wanted them to learn to come and look him up, not literally 'look up' at him. I think your friend may have misunderstood or misremembered.
I believe that it is possible that one of his great dogs didn't see a bird until he was three years old, but this is not the norm for him. In the video he talks about letting puppies knock and chase birds. The dogs that he is running in the video are probably 6 months old to 12 months old. His is obviously teasing them with a pigeon and later they point quail while his is running them. He points out a quail feeder on the grounds where he is running them. I do think that he and others like him probably wait a little longer for formal bird work. I don't think this is necessarily for the dog's benefit though. When one is looking at 100 or more puppies per year, doing formal bird work with each one would be incredibly labor intensive. He is waiting for a pup to separate himself from the others in gait, pattern, nose, etc... before doing the labor intensive yard work. This may take some time. The average bird hunter with one maybe two puppies at a time isn't going through this evaluation process. He is working with what he's got.
Years ago in an interview, I remember Mr. Miller saying something similar to this. He said that when he was running little puppies that he would step behind a tree or into a barn door and 'hide' from the puppies. He wanted them to learn to come and look him up, not literally 'look up' at him. I think your friend may have misunderstood or misremembered.
I believe that it is possible that one of his great dogs didn't see a bird until he was three years old, but this is not the norm for him. In the video he talks about letting puppies knock and chase birds. The dogs that he is running in the video are probably 6 months old to 12 months old. His is obviously teasing them with a pigeon and later they point quail while his is running them. He points out a quail feeder on the grounds where he is running them. I do think that he and others like him probably wait a little longer for formal bird work. I don't think this is necessarily for the dog's benefit though. When one is looking at 100 or more puppies per year, doing formal bird work with each one would be incredibly labor intensive. He is waiting for a pup to separate himself from the others in gait, pattern, nose, etc... before doing the labor intensive yard work. This may take some time. The average bird hunter with one maybe two puppies at a time isn't going through this evaluation process. He is working with what he's got.
- birddogger
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
This makes a lot more sense. Thanks
Charlie
Charlie
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
I've always had better results putting some ob into a young dog and then getting them tons of wild bird time. They'll learn soon enough to point and move on to the next phase.SCT wrote:Good post Ray. I'll keep running my pups at a young age and on wild birds and they'll keep being "staunch" before their a year old. I don't say a word to my pups around birds and most are holding for me to flush by 6-9 months old.
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
I would.guess the same percentage is the same across the country how many pointers are produced in North America, of those how many make the cut to even be considered for formal training in a trial program and of those how many go on to place in a trial or a championship.SCT wrote:Good post Ray. I'll keep running my pups at a young age and on wild birds and they'll keep being "staunch" before their a year old. I don't say a word to my pups around birds and most are holding for me to flush by 6-9 months old.
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
Mine don't need ob (which I'm assuming is obedience) before running on wild birds as they have natural handle and a lot of point. I can usually hunt over them at a young age without any obedience. They retrieve birds naturally too.AAA Gundogs wrote:I've always had better results putting some ob into a young dog and then getting them tons of wild bird time. They'll learn soon enough to point and move on to the next phase.SCT wrote:Good post Ray. I'll keep running my pups at a young age and on wild birds and they'll keep being "staunch" before their a year old. I don't say a word to my pups around birds and most are holding for me to flush by 6-9 months old.
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
Ryan, it would be interesting to find out what all the difference percentages are on producing field trial contestants with placements. I'm glad Miller did what he did because, like I said earlier, his is the only line I will cross my bitches to.RyanDoolittle wrote:I would.guess the same percentage is the same across the country how many pointers are produced in North America, of those how many make the cut to even be considered for formal training in a trial program and of those how many go on to place in a trial or a championship.SCT wrote:Good post Ray. I'll keep running my pups at a young age and on wild birds and they'll keep being "staunch" before their a year old. I don't say a word to my pups around birds and most are holding for me to flush by 6-9 months old.
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
Everybody has their own methods and are successful with them which is why a forum like this is interesting.SCT wrote:Mine don't need ob (which I'm assuming is obedience) before running on wild birds as they have natural handle and a lot of point. I can usually hunt over them at a young age without any obedience. They retrieve birds naturally too.AAA Gundogs wrote:I've always had better results putting some ob into a young dog and then getting them tons of wild bird time. They'll learn soon enough to point and move on to the next phase.SCT wrote:Good post Ray. I'll keep running my pups at a young age and on wild birds and they'll keep being "staunch" before their a year old. I don't say a word to my pups around birds and most are holding for me to flush by 6-9 months old.
Miller made a difference in trialing and breeding because he didn't have a problem culling everything he didn't like. Not everyone can do that. His competitiveness is of the highest level, but from what I understand, his percentage of producing those highly competitive dogs was very low compared to how many puppies produced. Having said that, my current 12 month old puppy who is doing extremely well is half Miller and Miller blood is the only line I'm interested in crossing to. But, that's just me;-)
Although, I am a bit unsure how anyone can run a dog on wild birds without atleast the most basic of yard work like a rock solid recall.
Regardless, while I've found the act of pointing to be instinctual, I believe the act of holding point is a conditioned response. I'm sure there are 101 ways to condition that response but my preferred method is lots and lots of wild birds. They're a better teacher than I could I ever hope of being.
- Stoneface
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
That does make more sense and is why I started this thread. I've never met Ferrell Miller and I don't know much about him besides his reputation. This is a good conversation.rinker wrote:"Said he'd crawl up in a tree or the roof of a barn or some other place real high. Then someone would let a puppy in. He'd call for the puppy, using his name, and the puppy had to look at him."
Years ago in an interview, I remember Mr. Miller saying something similar to this. He said that when he was running little puppies that he would step behind a tree or into a barn door and 'hide' from the puppies. He wanted them to learn to come and look him up, not literally 'look up' at him. I think your friend may have misunderstood or misremembered.
I believe that it is possible that one of his great dogs didn't see a bird until he was three years old, but this is not the norm for him. In the video he talks about letting puppies knock and chase birds. The dogs that he is running in the video are probably 6 months old to 12 months old. His is obviously teasing them with a pigeon and later they point quail while his is running them. He points out a quail feeder on the grounds where he is running them. I do think that he and others like him probably wait a little longer for formal bird work. I don't think this is necessarily for the dog's benefit though. When one is looking at 100 or more puppies per year, doing formal bird work with each one would be incredibly labor intensive. He is waiting for a pup to separate himself from the others in gait, pattern, nose, etc... before doing the labor intensive yard work. This may take some time. The average bird hunter with one maybe two puppies at a time isn't going through this evaluation process. He is working with what he's got.
- PntrRookie
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Re: Ferrell Miller's Words
I believe those are two different scenarios. There is a difference. Paragraph one is used for seeing if the dog - while out running and hunting - can "locate" the handler, turn and go with him or her. The second paragraph is to see if the dog will come all the way back to him and "find" the handler.rinker wrote:"Said he'd crawl up in a tree or the roof of a barn or some other place real high. Then someone would let a puppy in. He'd call for the puppy, using his name, and the puppy had to look at him."
Years ago in an interview, I remember Mr. Miller saying something similar to this. He said that when he was running little puppies that he would step behind a tree or into a barn door and 'hide' from the puppies. He wanted them to learn to come and look him up, not literally 'look up' at him. I think your friend may have misunderstood or misremembered.
I was training a week ago down in GA with a few of the Miller individuals and they had a year old dog that they did not think could "locate". We ran him with 3 other pups. The handler would sing and ride along. All the dogs except the one in question would eventually hear him, see the horse and turn with us. The one in question usually blew out the front (he was also dragging cables ) and we had to use the tracker and go find him. The handler's concern is that he is not locating. He doesn't feel that he is a run off, he is trying to figure out if he has a problem locating the sound and sight of the horse.
It was very interesting to cut 6 or so pups loose and watch them all react differently. Then cut 2 AA dogs loose and run a brace on those plantations. Great time!