Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Gertie » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:20 am

Recently I've seen a couple of posts on this forum and another about pups being sold (or not sold) to non-hunters. In the post I just read on another forum the poster described their frustration at the amount of energy their pup had and asked for suggestions to "wear it out". This person had an 8 month old setter pup, lived in the city and did not have any reasonably close access to a place where the dog could be run off-least. The poster had no intention of hunting or even training to hunt for hunt tests, etc. Suggestions like agility trials, toys that functioned like games, walks on leash several times/day, and other IMO completely inadequate alternatives to running off-leash and being taught to hunt were offered. I have only bred one litter but I did not sell any of my pups to anyone who does not hunt or field trial (preferably both!) because I did not want them to be subjected to this fate. I actually spent an hour on the phone talking one couple out of a hunting-type puppy entirely (although I did suggest an older rescue as an option if they really liked the breed). So, question to you folks who breed your dogs, are you willing to sell your pups to non-hunting/field competition homes and what (if any) criteria do you insist upon in a home when you sell a pup?

fishvik
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: Idaho Falls, ID

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by fishvik » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:34 pm

I think this is a problem with any breed that is high energy, bird dog or not. Just look at how many people think a border collie, pit bull or Jack Russell would make a good apartment dog. I commend you for not giving a puppy to a house that couldn't give it the right environment to thrive.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by NEhomer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:19 pm

I have a setter and it breaks my heart to hear of the situation the OP describes. My guy runs and runs miles every week in open fields and woods.....and of course hunts during the season.

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:40 pm

Gertie wrote:Recently I've seen a couple of posts on this forum and another about pups being sold (or not sold) to non-hunters. In the post I just read on another forum the poster described their frustration at the amount of energy their pup had and asked for suggestions to "wear it out". This person had an 8 month old setter pup, lived in the city and did not have any reasonably close access to a place where the dog could be run off-least. The poster had no intention of hunting or even training to hunt for hunt tests, etc. Suggestions like agility trials, toys that functioned like games, walks on leash several times/day, and other IMO completely inadequate alternatives to running off-leash and being taught to hunt were offered. I have only bred one litter but I did not sell any of my pups to anyone who does not hunt or field trial (preferably both!) because I did not want them to be subjected to this fate. I actually spent an hour on the phone talking one couple out of a hunting-type puppy entirely (although I did suggest an older rescue as an option if they really liked the breed). So, question to you folks who breed your dogs, are you willing to sell your pups to non-hunting/field competition homes and what (if any) criteria do you insist upon in a home when you sell a pup?
I haven't had to weed out non-hunting purchasers because my price and where I offer them for sale does it for me.

If the dog was going to be sledding, skijoring, bikejoring, etc, on a regular basis and they had a decent yard, I wouldn't have a problem selling a dog to a non hunter. Most hunting dogs see a month in the field.

User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:03 pm

I agree with AAA. In a perfect world we all would want to put our pups in hunting / competition homes. I have placed my pups with cross country joggers, mountain bikers and hikers and felt very comfortable with it. Fortunately it has been a non issue for me the past few years because hunters have really liked our lines and go on a waitelist. "Knock on wood".

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:33 pm

Young families who hunt are on the top of my list. Young families who don't hunt that having a dog that likes to hunt may get them started. From there it is pretty much a toss up. I don't feel like I should be the judge of people and what they like to do with a dog as long as they understand what they are buying and they provide a good home for the pup. Families with younger children are always high on the list and they usually get a cheaper price if they appear to need it. I want every child to have the opportunity to grow up with a dog and a hunting dog is a great companion if they have the place to keep it.

Ezzy

User avatar
displaced_texan
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:57 pm
Location: Mobilehoma

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by displaced_texan » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:37 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Young families who hunt are on the top of my list. Young families who don't hunt that having a dog that likes to hunt may get them started. From there it is pretty much a toss up. I don't feel like I should be the judge of people and what they like to do with a dog as long as they understand what they are buying and they provide a good home for the pup. Families with younger children are always high on the list and they usually get a cheaper price if they appear to need it. I want every child to have the opportunity to grow up with a dog and a hunting dog is a great companion if they have the place to keep it.

Ezzy
This is the most I've ever agreed with you.

I had one litter several years ago, I had a non hunting friend that wanted a pup. We talked about prey drive, energy levels, etc... She wanted to make sure that she could make sure the pup was happy without hunting.

She's given that little girl a great life for 3 years now. I'm glad she has her.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:25 pm

Thank you, I am just an old man that has about 70 years experience with dogs and kids and have spent much of that time bringing the two together in anyway possible. I started breeding, boarding, training, showing, and occasionally trialing almost 60 years ago and it became a family project after I got out of the Service and was a great way to keep four boys busy and off of the streets and out of trouble. Plus I was lucky enough to be able to work in the feed manufacturing business with some dedicated people who made it possible for me to work in every aspect of the business from nutrition to manufacturing, marketing and then started the quality assurance and the environmental and regulatory compliance area. Was a great experience for me but maybe not everyone would enjoy it. And for the past seventy some years have been involved teaching young people through the University Extension 4-H programs. And the best part is I am still meeting new people who teach me new things.

I can't thank all of you people plus my Heavenly Father enough for making all of this possible.

Ezzy

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:12 am

The group that I'm most leary about is young couples. They tend to have a more unstable living situation and, many times, when the first kid arrives, the dog becomes the odd man out.

I do agree about kids and, since our dogs are raised around kids, we find those families to be a really good match.

Although, probably at a rate of 2.5:1 and maybe even closer to 3:1, our dogs get placed with 45+ year old empty nesters that now have the time and the means to field trial.

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Gertie » Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:39 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:The group that I'm most leary about is young couples. They tend to have a more unstable living situation and, many times, when the first kid arrives, the dog becomes the odd man out.

I do agree about kids and, since our dogs are raised around kids, we find those families to be a really good match.

Although, probably at a rate of 2.5:1 and maybe even closer to 3:1, our dogs get placed with 45+ year old empty nesters that now have the time and the means to field trial.
Yup, I ruled out renters as well. Such a common story on all the rescue sites "We got a new job in another town and our new rental doesn't allow dogs...". Sorry, grow up and buy a house then you can have a dog. Until then, you're not getting one of mine :mrgreen:

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:15 pm

Gertie wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:The group that I'm most leary about is young couples. They tend to have a more unstable living situation and, many times, when the first kid arrives, the dog becomes the odd man out.

I do agree about kids and, since our dogs are raised around kids, we find those families to be a really good match.

Although, probably at a rate of 2.5:1 and maybe even closer to 3:1, our dogs get placed with 45+ year old empty nesters that now have the time and the means to field trial.
Yup, I ruled out renters as well. Such a common story on all the rescue sites "We got a new job in another town and our new rental doesn't allow dogs...". Sorry, grow up and buy a house then you can have a dog. Until then, you're not getting one of mine :mrgreen:
You are certainly within your rights but I just find it extremely bias to tell someone that is somewhere between 20 and 80 to grow up or to tell them they have to buy a house to qualify for owning a dog or a pup. they may qualify to adopt a child but a house title that includes a fence is required to buy or rescue a dog. My pups are still dogs and need to be treated like one and that requires nothing more than a loving family and not on what they own. Darn, I hate to play God just to place a pup, it is hard enough to try and find individuals who really want one that will care for it as best as they can.

Ezzy

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Gertie » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:45 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Gertie wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:The group that I'm most leary about is young couples. They tend to have a more unstable living situation and, many times, when the first kid arrives, the dog becomes the odd man out.

I do agree about kids and, since our dogs are raised around kids, we find those families to be a really good match.

Although, probably at a rate of 2.5:1 and maybe even closer to 3:1, our dogs get placed with 45+ year old empty nesters that now have the time and the means to field trial.
Yup, I ruled out renters as well. Such a common story on all the rescue sites "We got a new job in another town and our new rental doesn't allow dogs...". Sorry, grow up and buy a house then you can have a dog. Until then, you're not getting one of mine :mrgreen:
You are certainly within your rights but I just find it extremely bias to tell someone that is somewhere between 20 and 80 to grow up or to tell them they have to buy a house to qualify for owning a dog or a pup. they may qualify to adopt a child but a house title that includes a fence is required to buy or rescue a dog. My pups are still dogs and need to be treated like one and that requires nothing more than a loving family and not on what they own. Darn, I hate to play God just to place a pup, it is hard enough to try and find individuals who really want one that will care for it as best as they can.

Ezzy
To each his own. I assist with fostering/re-homing dogs all the time and moving/loss of a rental situation is probably the most common issue (next to having a baby and followed closely by "dog has too much energy"). People don't generally re-home kids but will re-home or dump a dog off at a shelter without batting an eye. I keep tabs on all 10 of the pups that came from my litter and have offered to buy them back for the original purchase price if for any reason the owner cannot keep them. The idea is to prevent them from being in some of the horrible situations I've seen dogs placed in due to no fault of their own. I understand people have health issues, get divorced, have kids, and life happens and that's why I made that deal from the get go. The bottom line is that the pups are my responsibility, the people, and their perceived happiness and what they feel entitled to, are not. I simply don't want any pup set up for failure from the get go by being placed in an unstable environment where even their home situation is precarious. As a rule, if someone wants a pup from me they need to be a hunter and or a field trialer, own their home, have a fenced area and adequate shelter for the dog (a chain tied to a tree or a dog house is not adequate), have a job/retired, and have a reference from their vet. I simply refuse to contribute to the overwhelming number of unwanted dogs in shelters, rescues, or flat-out dumped.

User avatar
displaced_texan
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:57 pm
Location: Mobilehoma

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:54 pm

Like Ezzy said. You can't judge people.

I know many homeowners who have given up dogs. We're currently renting because a situation came up where it makes a lot more sense for us for a while. I've eaten eggs and potatoes for a week so our dogs could have quality food.

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:22 pm

displaced_texan wrote:Like Ezzy said. You can't judge people.

I know many homeowners who have given up dogs. We're currently renting because a situation came up where it makes a lot more sense for us for a while. I've eaten eggs and potatoes for a week so our dogs could have quality food.
I'm not anti-renter. In many areas, it makes financial sense to rent vs purchase.

It's the young childless couple, married or not, that I'm leary of the most.

Anyway, it's a moot point for me. My litters are generally sold by word of mouth and before they drop with a 25% discount for a currently active trial home. I've even done trades (guns, horses, jewelry, puppies out of future litters, commissioned artwork, etc) and payment plans, in lieu of cold hard cash from non-competition homes, to get them into trial homes.

My goal is to get 100% of each litter trialing with pros or strong amateurs. The future of the lines are improved because it prevents superstars from never getting a chance to shine.

User avatar
displaced_texan
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:57 pm
Location: Mobilehoma

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:59 pm

Still judging.

We elected not to have kids because of major health issues. Not worth risking my wife's life.

TheIndian
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Location: On the banks of the Nissequogue.

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by TheIndian » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:27 am

What's wrong with potatoes and eggs?

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1872
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:23 am

I seldom take a litter from my bitches. I decided years ago not to breed from any bitch that had not done well in field trials. Most of the pups, labs, GSP's and brittanies went to working homes but not all of them. I'd rather a pup went to a good non- working/trialing family home than to some of the field trailers I know !

I do vet potential puppy buyers and turned away one lady from the south of France who wanted to buy a GSP pup from me. The pup was strikingly marked and the lady made the mistake of telling me that her reason for wanting a pup was to look "tres chic" as she strolled along the boulevard in Cannes !

Bill T.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2124
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by cjhills » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:58 am

Trekmoor wrote:I seldom take a litter from my bitches. I decided years ago not to breed from any bitch that had not done well in field trials. Most of the pups, labs, GSP's and brittanies went to working homes but not all of them. I'd rather a pup went to a good non- working/trialing family home than to some of the field trailers I know !

I do vet potential puppy buyers and turned away one lady from the south of France who wanted to buy a GSP pup from me. The pup was strikingly marked and the lady made the mistake of telling me that her reason for wanting a pup was to look "tres chic" as she strolled along the boulevard in Cannes !

Bill T.
I agree with Bill.
My dogs are bred to be social animals. Some of my worst buyers have been hunters who leave the dogs in outdoor kennels with very little socializing.
My preference is hunting families, but life style does not make a buyer good or bad. Small children can be a issue for families who do not now how to put the smack down on a cute little puppy that gets out of control. The two puppies I took back came from that situation..................Cj

pistolero17
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by pistolero17 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:03 am

I am glad the breeder I got my pointer from gave my wife and I a chance when we got our first pointer. I had no intentions of hunting her, even though I was a big archery hunter. I was more a trail runner/marathon runner/mountain biker and that dog did probably 50+ miles a week off leash. During our rides and run in the state park she was a hunting machine and I got hooked and now am an upland only hunter, all because of one dog. Now with a gps I know she does 50+ miles a week and the kids love her and am glad that breeder gave us a chance.
Last edited by pistolero17 on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Gertie » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:02 pm

From the sounds of it the "young couple" factor is standing out as a watch out situation in and of itself, and I completely agree. As far as owning a home instead of renting goes, if there were extenuating circumstances that made sense as to why a person was renting I would take that into consideration. It's more of an issue of stability/responsibility. I don't mean to come across as being judgmental but when it comes down to it I suppose that vetting a potential buyer is a judgmental process. By the time those pups left I was in love with every one of them and their future/well-being was my highest priority. Thanks for the input folks. Always interesting to hear others' perspectives.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:14 pm

I am thoroughly convince that age, race, gender, height, weight, color of eyes, and size of shoe all have an equal importance in acceptability of owning a dog. And then we can't overlook the make of the car, size of the house, number of children, religion and what brand of beer they drink. Once we get all of that deciphered we might consider if they are a loving family that really wants a dog and they are interested in caring for it and if they are they will provide the best home for a puppy we will ever find. And the pup will love them even if we don't.

Ezzy

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Gertie » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:56 am

ezzy333 wrote:I am thoroughly convince that age, race, gender, height, weight, color of eyes, and size of shoe all have an equal importance in acceptability of owning a dog. And then we can't overlook the make of the car, size of the house, number of children, religion and what brand of beer they drink. Once we get all of that deciphered we might consider if they are a loving family that really wants a dog and they are interested in caring for it and if they are they will provide the best home for a puppy we will ever find. And the pup will love them even if we don't.

Ezzy
So, anyone who walks in the door wanting a pup, regardless of their circumstances, I should just "work with" because maybe, if they're lucky, that pup will be "loved" by someone? There are a crap ton of dogs in shelters that can fill that void. Perhaps that someone should take the money that they're trying to spend on a pedigreed pup and put it in a savings account and buy a house instead of notion buying an animal that they are may be willing to dump in the future because they don't have the money to deal with it when it gets sick, runs itself into barbed wire, impales itself on a stick, requires annual vaccinations/heart worm medications, etc. or other veterinary care (because vets should work for free, right)? Not to mention, who gives a crap about the dog's innate need for physical exertion beyond the occasional casual leash run or trip to the dog park. I thought about your response Ezzy and my initial reaction was to let it slide but your version of "love" is obviously a bit different than mine. I have been witness to the kind of neglect that dogs suffer if placed into the hands of those who have no business taking care of a plant, let alone an animal that is bred to do a job and I wouldn't subject that kind of existence on my worst enemy let alone a pup that I consider family. Bottom line, if there isn't sufficient demand for a litter that I can't be selective as to where those pups go then there's really no reason to breed the litter in the first place. My priority is for the integrity of the breed as a whole and for the pups as individuals and my concern is not for money to be gained nor do I care about someone's hurt feelings after being told that they can't have everything they want.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by NEhomer » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:05 am

I gotta side with Gertie. If you don't have the means to properly care for a particular breed, don't get a sporting dog. It would be a sentence for my setter to live in a city apartment.

rinker
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 am

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by rinker » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:35 am

Twenty-five years or so ago, I had a litter of labs. My dogs were hunting dogs, but most of the puppies went to pet homes. I sold two puppies one Saturday afternoon. One puppy went to a family with older children that lived on several acres. They were an active family and it seemed like a perfect home. The other puppy went to a young couple with small children and another child on the way. They lived in an apartment. I spent hours trying to talk them out of buying that puppy. They assured me that they would be buying a home soon and would give the pup a great home.

The young couple from the apartment sent me a Christmas card every year with a current photo of the dog, and a paragraph about what a great dog he was and how much they loved him. I think the dog lived to be twelve years old, and seemed to have a great life.

I called the other couple three or four months after they bought the puppy, just to follow up and see how it was going. They told me that the pup didn't work out and they gave him away. They didn't give me any more details and I suspected that meant that they probably dumped him at a shelter.

Now, I fully realize that one example doesn't necessarily prove anything. I have an occasional litter of puppies and when someone inquires, I ask them several questions and try to determine suitability. I have spent many hours on the phone talking people out of buying a puppy from me. Unless I can easily tell otherwise, I assume that most adults are capable of making rational decisions about their own life, and the lives of their pets.

Early on, and maybe still today, I would not have passed some of the suitability tests described in this thread and others like it. I'm glad someone was willing to sell me a puppy when I was trying to get started.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:24 am

rinker wrote:Twenty-five years or so ago, I had a litter of labs. My dogs were hunting dogs, but most of the puppies went to pet homes. I sold two puppies one Saturday afternoon. One puppy went to a family with older children that lived on several acres. They were an active family and it seemed like a perfect home. The other puppy went to a young couple with small children and another child on the way. They lived in an apartment. I spent hours trying to talk them out of buying that puppy. They assured me that they would be buying a home soon and would give the pup a great home.

The young couple from the apartment sent me a Christmas card every year with a current photo of the dog, and a paragraph about what a great dog he was and how much they loved him. I think the dog lived to be twelve years old, and seemed to have a great life.

I called the other couple three or four months after they bought the puppy, just to follow up and see how it was going. They told me that the pup didn't work out and they gave him away. They didn't give me any more details and I suspected that meant that they probably dumped him at a shelter.

Now, I fully realize that one example doesn't necessarily prove anything. I have an occasional litter of puppies and when someone inquires, I ask them several questions and try to determine suitability. I have spent many hours on the phone talking people out of buying a puppy from me. Unless I can easily tell otherwise, I assume that most adults are capable of making rational decisions about their own life, and the lives of their pets.

Early on, and maybe still today, I would not have passed some of the suitability tests described in this thread and others like it. I'm glad someone was willing to sell me a puppy when I was trying to get started.
Same thoughts and experience here. A couple of the most loved and cared for pups I have ever seen was an English pointer that slept in the cardboard box that his owner called home. The two, dog and owner, were inseperatable. And the other was a mutt that belonged to a lad who saved it in Iraq. Also have seen countless dogs that live in homes that were far a field from what they were "bred for". How many Huskys and Malamutes, Shepherds and Collies do we see and accept as pets because they aren't sporting breeds, even though they are just as active as any sporting breed.

I am not upset that anyone has a list af attributes they think is applicable to puppy ownership, but I am saying those lists are almost always predicated on making the seller feel good and have little to do with what is important to the pup. We seem to forget that the pup is going to spend 20 hours a day sleeping and if it has a loving family to spend the other four hours with it will be happy whether those other hours are spent in a field chasing birds, in a pasture rounding up the cows, on a path pulling a sled, or in the backyards playing with a bumper that is being thrown by the kids it has grown up with. I'll bet that is a lot more satisfying than being in a kennel or in a box on a truck waiting for its 30 minutes of freedom pointing a bird no one ever shoots and it never gets to retrieve.

I can't say for sure but all of the heart wrenching pictures I ever see are always a dog laying next to the casket or on the grave of its loving owner and not mourning because it can't go to the next trial or it can't find another bird. Dogs, like people, find their greatest satisfaction being with people they love and not the activities they perform. Seems like I hear that everyday from the trainers that tell you that your most important job is to bond with the pup. And I know that is exactly what I told the people I sold a pup to or a client who I helped out teaching them both how to hunt.

JMO
Ezzy

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:34 pm

Love doesn't buy vaccinations and other health care so we'll agree to disagree.
ezzy333 wrote:
rinker wrote:Twenty-five years or so ago, I had a litter of labs. My dogs were hunting dogs, but most of the puppies went to pet homes. I sold two puppies one Saturday afternoon. One puppy went to a family with older children that lived on several acres. They were an active family and it seemed like a perfect home. The other puppy went to a young couple with small children and another child on the way. They lived in an apartment. I spent hours trying to talk them out of buying that puppy. They assured me that they would be buying a home soon and would give the pup a great home.

The young couple from the apartment sent me a Christmas card every year with a current photo of the dog, and a paragraph about what a great dog he was and how much they loved him. I think the dog lived to be twelve years old, and seemed to have a great life.

I called the other couple three or four months after they bought the puppy, just to follow up and see how it was going. They told me that the pup didn't work out and they gave him away. They didn't give me any more details and I suspected that meant that they probably dumped him at a shelter.

Now, I fully realize that one example doesn't necessarily prove anything. I have an occasional litter of puppies and when someone inquires, I ask them several questions and try to determine suitability. I have spent many hours on the phone talking people out of buying a puppy from me. Unless I can easily tell otherwise, I assume that most adults are capable of making rational decisions about their own life, and the lives of their pets.

Early on, and maybe still today, I would not have passed some of the suitability tests described in this thread and others like it. I'm glad someone was willing to sell me a puppy when I was trying to get started.
Same thoughts and experience here. A couple of the most loved and cared for pups I have ever seen was an English pointer that slept in the cardboard box that his owner called home. The two, dog and owner, were inseperatable. And the other was a mutt that belonged to a lad who saved it in Iraq. Also have seen countless dogs that live in homes that were far a field from what they were "bred for". How many Huskys and Malamutes, Shepherds and Collies do we see and accept as pets because they aren't sporting breeds, even though they are just as active as any sporting breed.

I am not upset that anyone has a list af attributes they think is applicable to puppy ownership, but I am saying those lists are almost always predicated on making the seller feel good and have little to do with what is important to the pup. We seem to forget that the pup is going to spend 20 hours a day sleeping and if it has a loving family to spend the other four hours with it will be happy whether those other hours are spent in a field chasing birds, in a pasture rounding up the cows, on a path pulling a sled, or in the backyards playing with a bumper that is being thrown by the kids it has grown up with. I'll bet that is a lot more satisfying than being in a kennel or in a box on a truck waiting for its 30 minutes of freedom pointing a bird no one ever shoots and it never gets to retrieve.

I can't say for sure but all of the heart wrenching pictures I ever see are always a dog laying next to the casket or on the grave of its loving owner and not mourning because it can't go to the next trial or it can't find another bird. Dogs, like people, find their greatest satisfaction being with people they love and not the activities they perform. Seems like I hear that everyday from the trainers that tell you that your most important job is to bond with the pup. And I know that is exactly what I told the people I sold a pup to or a client who I helped out teaching them both how to hunt.

JMO
Ezzy

rinker
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 am

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by rinker » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:05 pm

I just now went to the 'for sale' section of this board. I looked through the first 7 or 8 posts. The lowest price that I saw for an eight week old puppy was $750. By the time someone drives a distance to pick one of these puppies up, or has it shipped, they are going to have $1,000, or more invested. It just doesn't make sense to me that people that can't afford puppy vaccinations are lined up to spend $1,000, or more for an eight week old puppy. I have no doubt that this has happened, I just can't believe that it's common.

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:13 pm

rinker wrote:I just now went to the 'for sale' section of this board. I looked through the first 7 or 8 posts. The lowest price that I saw for an eight week old puppy was $750. By the time someone drives a distance to pick one of these puppies up, or has it shipped, they are going to have $1,000, or more invested. It just doesn't make sense to me that people that can't afford puppy vaccinations are lined up to spend $1,000, or more for an eight week old puppy. I have no doubt that this has happened, I just can't believe that it's common.
You'd be surprised but, mostly, my comment was directed towards Mr. Ezzy's comment about the dog and man living in a cardboard box. All the love in the world isn't buying that dog veterinary care.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:16 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:
rinker wrote:I just now went to the 'for sale' section of this board. I looked through the first 7 or 8 posts. The lowest price that I saw for an eight week old puppy was $750. By the time someone drives a distance to pick one of these puppies up, or has it shipped, they are going to have $1,000, or more invested. It just doesn't make sense to me that people that can't afford puppy vaccinations are lined up to spend $1,000, or more for an eight week old puppy. I have no doubt that this has happened, I just can't believe that it's common.
You'd be surprised but, mostly, my comment was directed towards Mr. Ezzy's comment about the dog and man living in a cardboard box. All the love in the world isn't buying that dog veterinary care.
I am no sure you are right about that when I see people going hungry so their dog can eat. But regardless, vet care does not enter into my idea of dog care but rather it is something we do when the dog needs it. My own dogs do not see a vet and I don't see a doctor unless we are sick. My dogs do go every three years to get their rabies shots but other than that they may never go.

However, love does often effect material things when needed but it isn't what I measure dog ownership by.

Ezzy

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:
rinker wrote:I just now went to the 'for sale' section of this board. I looked through the first 7 or 8 posts. The lowest price that I saw for an eight week old puppy was $750. By the time someone drives a distance to pick one of these puppies up, or has it shipped, they are going to have $1,000, or more invested. It just doesn't make sense to me that people that can't afford puppy vaccinations are lined up to spend $1,000, or more for an eight week old puppy. I have no doubt that this has happened, I just can't believe that it's common.
You'd be surprised but, mostly, my comment was directed towards Mr. Ezzy's comment about the dog and man living in a cardboard box. All the love in the world isn't buying that dog veterinary care.
I am no sure you are right about that when I see people going hungry so their dog can eat. But regardless, vet care does not enter into my idea of dog care but rather it is something we do when the dog needs it. My own dogs do not see a vet and I don't see a doctor unless we are sick. My dogs do go every three years to get their rabies shots but other than that they may never go.

However, love does often effect material things when needed but it isn't what I measure dog ownership by.

Ezzy
I believe in responsibility and, when an adult decides to have a kid or a dog, there are financial responsibilities.

Now the kid and dog don't need to have filet but there are certain basics that need to be afforded like health care.

I go to the md and the dds every 6 months because preventive medicine is the responsible decision in terms of health and finances.

You think homeless guy is getting his dog vaccinated for rabies, heartworm, etc?

Anyway, I think that, to make a valid point, you engaged in a touch of hyperbole and are afraid to admit that it was a little too much for fear of diminishing the original point.

It doesn't.

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by Gertie » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:43 pm

A good friend of mine is a vet and recently had an 8 month old GSP pup brought into her office with an obstruction (turned out to be a rubber ball). My friend showed them the X-ray and gave them an estimate for the surgery for the dog. Their response was that the surgery cost more than the dog and that they "scrimped and saved to come up with the money for the dog" and could not pay for the surgery and that they would rather just put the dog down and go get another one because it would be cheaper. Long story short, my friend offered to do the surgery for free if they would release the dog to her to find a more responsible owner. They did. Next thing you know, they're calling the breeder and trying to tell him that the dog died of some genetic defect. Via the power of social media, the breeder caught these folks in their lie (they were trying to get another pup for free). This was a young couple that should not have been sold a pup. This may be an extreme example but I hear of similar situations all the time and if I ever decide to breed a litter of pups again you can dang well bet those pups aren't going to end up in a situation like the one I just described.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2124
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:32 pm

Gertie:
How do you know the young couple you described would not have passed all your criteria. It is a crapshoot and all you can do is try to get the dog in the best situation. Most of the time it works. If not hope you find out early and be prepared to take the dog back,give them a check and move on.
AAA Gun dogs:
As far as your pups being so valuable that only good buyers can afford them goes, some of the worst buyers have a pretty healthy disposable income. Good owners are good owners whether they hunt,trial or any other activity and bad owners also come in all life styles, financial backgrounds and activities also.
ezzy:
I agree with you and that is scary.............Cj

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2400
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by polmaise » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:42 pm

Gertie wrote:Recently I've seen a couple of posts on this forum and another about pups being sold (or not sold) to non-hunters. In the post I just read on another forum the poster described their frustration at the amount of energy their pup had and asked for suggestions to "wear it out". This person had an 8 month old setter pup, lived in the city and did not have any reasonably close access to a place where the dog could be run off-least. The poster had no intention of hunting or even training to hunt for hunt tests, etc. Suggestions like agility trials, toys that functioned like games, walks on leash several times/day, and other IMO completely inadequate alternatives to running off-leash and being taught to hunt were offered. I have only bred one litter but I did not sell any of my pups to anyone who does not hunt or field trial (preferably both!) because I did not want them to be subjected to this fate. I actually spent an hour on the phone talking one couple out of a hunting-type puppy entirely (although I did suggest an older rescue as an option if they really liked the breed). So, question to you folks who breed your dogs, are you willing to sell your pups to non-hunting/field competition homes and what (if any) criteria do you insist upon in a home when you sell a pup?
I wonder how the Show dogs are sold from the same breed?

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:43 pm

cjhills wrote:Gertie:
How do you know the young couple you described would not have passed all your criteria. It is a crapshoot and all you can do is try to get the dog in the best situation. Most of the time it works. If not hope you find out early and be prepared to take the dog back,give them a check and move on.
AAA Gun dogs:
As far as your pups being so valuable that only good buyers can afford them goes, some of the worst buyers have a pretty healthy disposable income. Good owners are good owners whether they hunt,trial or any other activity and bad owners also come in all life styles, financial backgrounds and activities also.
ezzy:
I agree with you and that is scary.............Cj
FT labs are expensive pups. I either know the person buying, know a person that knows the buyer, or the trainer that the person has used for other dogs.

On the other hand, I know a guy that was selling a extremely well bred gsp litter on here. The guy turned away TONS of buyers and left cash on the table because he wanted them all in trial homes and wanted folks that were vouched for.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1251
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:57 am

Gertie wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:The group that I'm most leary about is young couples. They tend to have a more unstable living situation and, many times, when the first kid arrives, the dog becomes the odd man out.

I do agree about kids and, since our dogs are raised around kids, we find those families to be a really good match.

Although, probably at a rate of 2.5:1 and maybe even closer to 3:1, our dogs get placed with 45+ year old empty nesters that now have the time and the means to field trial.
Yup, I ruled out renters as well. Such a common story on all the rescue sites "We got a new job in another town and our new rental doesn't allow dogs...". Sorry, grow up and buy a house then you can have a dog. Until then, you're not getting one of mine :mrgreen:
It's unfortunate that you've ruled out a group that I was/am a part of. My wife and I were engaged and in an apartment when we got our springer. We had training field lined up at the time and she received daily training and off-leash runs. I had also already joined (before getting our pup) a training group. Yes we are young, and yes we were renters, and yes we knew our lives would continue to change, but we made a conscious decision to be committed.

Maybe we're the exception, maybe not. But I know rich homeowners who are terrible owners (and parents).

Kibble for thought.

speng5
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:47 am

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by speng5 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:39 am

Interesting debate, and it certainly is "kibble for thought!"

Another thought:
Would it KILL anyone to take prospective buyers on a case by case basis? Sure it might make that phone call go 15 minutes longer and make us use some of that big, primate, grey matter we've got... :roll: But you might find some REAL good folks.

IMO and historically speaking, heavily black and white and blanket policies seem to be the battle cry of the simple minded. There are exceptions to every rule and to say they arent worth finding or appreciating is detrimental to both dog and potential owner.

Like others have echoed I know folks that hubby and wifey each sniff $200k a year salaries, live in a $400K McMansion, and once their lab is big enough to knock over the kids (because it doesn't get enough excercise), it goes in an uncovered 4x8 run in the far corner of the yard for the rest of its days, eating Ol Roy and going insane.

I also know a couple college kids that are great hunters and dog owners. One young man lives in a duplex/townhome and is training a GREAT GSP. Belongs to club, VERY active in it. He drives a beat up old late 80s Jeep Cherokee, eats Ramen noodles more nights a week than not, but that dog has never once been without, lives inside, sleeps on the bed, and sees the vet for preventative purposes.

I know it's quicker, easier, faster, and less brain power to just say "No kids", "No newlyweds", "no renters", etc. But is saving yourself 5 minutes of headscratching worth depriving a young man the chance of a great dog, or a dog the chance of a great owner? I get being particular about where your dogs go. You could still ask for references from colleagues, bosses, previous vets, and the landlord and find out just as much if not more about their character than looking at the deed to a house. But I do understand that for some, this "head scratching" and life's vagueties cause considerable fear and pain... :roll:

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2124
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:24 pm

GSP Pj's Wildfire who won many trials and is a HOF dog lived in an apartment in Chicago

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:23 pm

cjhills wrote:GSP Pj's Wildfire who won many trials and is a HOF dog lived in an apartment in Chicago
When you're looking for a litter, from which to buy a puppy, what's the first thing that you do and why?

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2400
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:35 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:[
When you're looking for a litter, from which to buy a puppy, what's the first thing that you do and why?
Don't know ,please tell us ?

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:30 pm

polmaise wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:[
When you're looking for a litter, from which to buy a puppy, what's the first thing that you do and why?
Don't know ,please tell us ?
It's a simple question and the answer is different for everyone.

However, regardless of the answer, the purpose is to improve one's odds of landing a good dog.

So while we can hunt up for exceptions, like a hb ft dog living in a Chicago apartment, I'll play the odds and the odds are that, on average, a Chicago apartment isn't a good home for a ft or hunting dog.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2400
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:47 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:
polmaise wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:[
When you're looking for a litter, from which to buy a puppy, what's the first thing that you do and why?
Don't know ,please tell us ?
It's a simple question and the answer is different for everyone.

However, regardless of the answer, the purpose is to improve one's odds of landing a good dog.

So while we can hunt up for exceptions, like a hb ft dog living in a Chicago apartment, I'll play the odds and the odds are that, on average, a Chicago apartment isn't a good home for a ft or hunting dog.
There you go 'M-nag' .Simples. :lol:

mask
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by mask » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:22 pm

Rescues and shelters are full of bird dogs that need a home and would be a good place for non hunters to find a dog. My questions are why get a hunting dog if you are not a hunter and why keep breeding dogs if there are not enough hunter trailers to buy them?

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:35 pm

I pretty much agree that I prefer to get the pups into hunting homes but that is very loosely followed as I find so many other qualities just as important and I am yet to find any two situations alike. I live near Chicago, and maybe the largest Brittany Club in the country is the LaSalle Brittany Club that is home to a lot of CH, FC, DC, as well as other titled dogs and they are largely housed in Chicago and surrounding suburbs. I think the reason why is no one told either the owners or the dogs that they can't do that if they live in town or in an apartment. Those darn dogs just keep smiling and winning.

People, winning has little to do with where you live or how much money they have, but has an awful lot to do with wanting a dog and enjoying working with them. There was time when people wouldn't sell to a female and look how silly that is, I remember years ago selling a dog to a female traveling salesman that lived in Chicago in a rented apartment and she would stop by when she was in my area for several years and that pup was always on the front seat riding shotgun and trying it's best to protect that car. Don't think they ever hunted but she told me how much safer she felt and how it gave her something to do every evening finding a place they could run and play when she was on the road. And how she trained the pup to hunt and hold point till she would flush whatever it found. Made me realize my criteria of vetting a prospect was way off base and I changed my idea that I could decide who and what would make a pup happy.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:36 pm

mask wrote:Rescues and shelters are full of bird dogs that need a home and would be a good place for non hunters to find a dog. My questions are why get a hunting dog if you are not a hunter and why keep breeding dogs if there are not enough hunter trailers to buy them?
I agree if you can qualify which I never could.

RaiderZach
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 8:20 am
Location: Denton County, Texas

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by RaiderZach » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:20 pm

I'm a younger family man that was looking for a training partner to run with me daily (im a marathoner), and dog that was great with kids. It landed me on the Vizsla and after waiting a couple years we found a breeder and a puppy that was perfect for us.

When I got him home he began pointing on dickie birds in the back yard.... and from there we never looked back.

Because of him, I bought my first shotgun...Went dove, duck, (and soon) upland hunting for the first time in my life. Because of my dog I became a hunter, and now my kids cannot wait to go with us when they are old enough. (He gets back from his second stay with the bird dog trainer this week!)

I hope you breeders don't limit who you sell to based solely on if the person is a hunter. I never planned on hunting, but I did know I was getting a dog that needed exercise daily, I knew what I was getting in to. I am sure glad my breeder didnt hold this litmus test, else I'd never have bought that shotgun or seen my dog do what he was born to do.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:34 pm

RaiderZach wrote:I'm a younger family man that was looking for a training partner to run with me daily (im a marathoner), and dog that was great with kids. It landed me on the Vizsla and after waiting a couple years we found a breeder and a puppy that was perfect for us.

When I got him home he began pointing on dickie birds in the back yard.... and from there we never looked back.

Because of him, I bought my first shotgun...Went dove, duck, (and soon) upland hunting for the first time in my life. Because of my dog I became a hunter, and now my kids cannot wait to go with us when they are old enough. (He gets back from his second stay with the bird dog trainer this week!)

I hope you breeders don't limit who you sell to based solely on if the person is a hunter. I never planned on hunting, but I did know I was getting a dog that needed exercise daily, I knew what I was getting in to. I am sure glad my breeder didnt hold this litmus test, else I'd never have bought that shotgun or seen my dog do what he was born to do.
You just expressed what I have trying to tell people but somehow they got the well being of the pup as more important than the well being of a few individuals, a boat load of kids, and have completely forgotten about the future of our sport. Thanks for your post and the perfect example of one puppy going to a loving home and improving the lives of a lot of people.

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
RaiderZach wrote:I'm a younger family man that was looking for a training partner to run with me daily (im a marathoner), and dog that was great with kids. It landed me on the Vizsla and after waiting a couple years we found a breeder and a puppy that was perfect for us.

When I got him home he began pointing on dickie birds in the back yard.... and from there we never looked back.

Because of him, I bought my first shotgun...Went dove, duck, (and soon) upland hunting for the first time in my life. Because of my dog I became a hunter, and now my kids cannot wait to go with us when they are old enough. (He gets back from his second stay with the bird dog trainer this week!)

I hope you breeders don't limit who you sell to based solely on if the person is a hunter. I never planned on hunting, but I did know I was getting a dog that needed exercise daily, I knew what I was getting in to. I am sure glad my breeder didnt hold this litmus test, else I'd never have bought that shotgun or seen my dog do what he was born to do.
You just expressed what I have trying to tell people but somehow they got the well being of the pup as more important than the well being of a few individuals, a boat load of kids, and have completely forgotten about the future of our sport. Thanks for your post and the perfect example of one puppy going to a loving home and improving the lives of a lot of people.
When a breeder is dealing with a small gene pool, be it entirely small or small because it's a performance subset, give puppies to people who don't hunt or don't trial eliminates those dogs from the future gene pool.

Let's talk about a litter of ft labs. In any litter, there are puppies that turn out good, great and meh. At some point, I'll want to breed the great ones back into my line. If the dog went to a non-trialing owner, the great good never saw it's potential and I lost the opportunity to keep it in the gene pool.

With breeds that just don't have large numbers, selling hunting stock puppies to nonhunters will lead to the eventual extinction of the hunting gene pool because it becomes so narrow that you end up doing a crossbreeding to revitalize the gene pool.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:17 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
RaiderZach wrote:I'm a younger family man that was looking for a training partner to run with me daily (im a marathoner), and dog that was great with kids. It landed me on the Vizsla and after waiting a couple years we found a breeder and a puppy that was perfect for us.

When I got him home he began pointing on dickie birds in the back yard.... and from there we never looked back.

Because of him, I bought my first shotgun...Went dove, duck, (and soon) upland hunting for the first time in my life. Because of my dog I became a hunter, and now my kids cannot wait to go with us when they are old enough. (He gets back from his second stay with the bird dog trainer this week!)

I hope you breeders don't limit who you sell to based solely on if the person is a hunter. I never planned on hunting, but I did know I was getting a dog that needed exercise daily, I knew what I was getting in to. I am sure glad my breeder didnt hold this litmus test, else I'd never have bought that shotgun or seen my dog do what he was born to do.
You just expressed what I have trying to tell people but somehow they got the well being of the pup as more important than the well being of a few individuals, a boat load of kids, and have completely forgotten about the future of our sport. Thanks for your post and the perfect example of one puppy going to a loving home and improving the lives of a lot of people.
When a breeder is dealing with a small gene pool, be it entirely small or small because it's a performance subset, give puppies to people who don't hunt or don't trial eliminates those dogs from the future gene pool.

Let's talk about a litter of ft labs. In any litter, there are puppies that turn out good, great and meh. At some point, I'll want to breed the great ones back into my line. If the dog went to a non-trialing owner, the great good never saw it's potential and I lost the opportunity to keep it in the gene pool.

With breeds that just don't have large numbers, selling hunting stock puppies to nonhunters will lead to the eventual extinction of the hunting gene pool because it becomes so narrow that you end up doing a crossbreeding to revitalize the gene pool.
True in theory but not something any of us have ever seen. There are more than enough breeders to maintain or improve our dogs if you can get two people to agree on wht is improvement.

AAA Gundogs
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:
When a breeder is dealing with a small gene pool, be it entirely small or small because it's a performance subset, give puppies to people who don't hunt or don't trial eliminates those dogs from the future gene pool.

Let's talk about a litter of ft labs. In any litter, there are puppies that turn out good, great and meh. At some point, I'll want to breed the great ones back into my line. If the dog went to a non-trialing owner, the great good never saw it's potential and I lost the opportunity to keep it in the gene pool.

With breeds that just don't have large numbers, selling hunting stock puppies to nonhunters will lead to the eventual extinction of the hunting gene pool because it becomes so narrow that you end up doing a crossbreeding to revitalize the gene pool.
True in theory but not something any of us have ever seen. There are more than enough breeders to maintain or improve our dogs if you can get two people to agree on wht is improvement.
Well you know expect for the breeds that we've actually seen cross breeding, in this country, like the wpg, etc, to bring new vigor into narrowing hunting gene pool.

It's going to end up happening in Germany with a couple of breeds as well since the drahthaar is dominating the hunting landscape and litter numbers from wpg, pp, etc have plummeted. Iirc, just under 100 wpg were whelped in Germany last year.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1251
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:41 am

AAA Gundogs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:
When a breeder is dealing with a small gene pool, be it entirely small or small because it's a performance subset, give puppies to people who don't hunt or don't trial eliminates those dogs from the future gene pool.

Let's talk about a litter of ft labs. In any litter, there are puppies that turn out good, great and meh. At some point, I'll want to breed the great ones back into my line. If the dog went to a non-trialing owner, the great good never saw it's potential and I lost the opportunity to keep it in the gene pool.

With breeds that just don't have large numbers, selling hunting stock puppies to nonhunters will lead to the eventual extinction of the hunting gene pool because it becomes so narrow that you end up doing a crossbreeding to revitalize the gene pool.
True in theory but not something any of us have ever seen. There are more than enough breeders to maintain or improve our dogs if you can get two people to agree on wht is improvement.
Well you know expect for the breeds that we've actually seen cross breeding, in this country, like the wpg, etc, to bring new vigor into narrowing hunting gene pool.

It's going to end up happening in Germany with a couple of breeds as well since the drahthaar is dominating the hunting landscape and litter numbers from wpg, pp, etc have plummeted. Iirc, just under 100 wpg were whelped in Germany last year.
Is this because of gene pool is narrow due to too many pups sold as pets? Or is it a lack of widespread interest in the breed, which could be helped by more pet sales?

Locked