Breeders - Do you sell your pups to non-hunters?

tobytx · Post by **tobytx** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:44 pm

Who cares whats going on in Germany? There are plenty of PP and WPG here in the states and in other parts of the world. Plus I wouldn't expect to see any WPG in Germany anyway. Arnt they a Frenchy breed ? I bet there are not a lot of DD in France, go figure lol.

AAA Gundogs · Post by **AAA Gundogs** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:51 pm

tobytx wrote:Who cares whats going on in Germany? There are plenty of PP and WPG here in the states and in other parts of the world. Plus I wouldn't expect to see any WPG in Germany anyway. Arnt they a Frenchy breed ? I bet there are not a lot of DD in France, go figure lol.

While Korthals was dutch, the epicenter of the breed was in Germany where he and other had huge kennels.

As for there being plenty of wire haired pointing griffons in the US, the american wpg breed club split into 2 when several breeders decided to crossbreed with the cesky fousek because of the lack of gene diversity in the wpg hunting stock and declining field performance.

Ps. The pudelpointer people, despite selling almost exclusively to hunters, are continually importing foreign stock, from eastern Europe, because they need to expand their narrow gene pool.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:14 am

ezzy333 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
You just expressed what I have trying to tell people but somehow they got the well being of the pup as more important than the well being of a few individuals, a boat load of kids, and have completely forgotten about the future of our sport. Thanks for your post and the perfect example of one puppy going to a loving home and improving the lives of a lot of people.
When a breeder is dealing with a small gene pool, be it entirely small or small because it's a performance subset, give puppies to people who don't hunt or don't trial eliminates those dogs from the future gene pool.

Let's talk about a litter of ft labs. In any litter, there are puppies that turn out good, great and meh. At some point, I'll want to breed the great ones back into my line. If the dog went to a non-trialing owner, the great good never saw it's potential and I lost the opportunity to keep it in the gene pool.

With breeds that just don't have large numbers, selling hunting stock puppies to nonhunters will lead to the eventual extinction of the hunting gene pool because it becomes so narrow that you end up doing a crossbreeding to revitalize the gene pool.
True in theory but not something any of us have ever seen. There are more than enough breeders to maintain or improve our dogs if you can get two people to agree on wht is improvement.

I'm agreeing with you a lot in here!'

To add to Ezzy's point, many hunting dogs are never bred either.

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:31 pm

Gertie - Lets just say YOU are 50 years old, have a Director position, and own a $500,000 house on 10 acres of land and breed dogs as you currently do. You wake up that morning, go to work, and your boss tells you that you are fired. Are you now in your own list of "don't sell to" ???? I am 29, married for 2 years, and yet to have children. I have been with my wife for 14 years and had 1 GSP which I already put down at age 13 (my first and extremely tough), I still have an 11 old EP, and now have a 1.5 year old male GSP and a 3 month old female GSP. All trained by me for the field and house and exercised daily so that when I am ready for bed, they beat me to it and there is no fuss. Oh, I also live in the city in an apartment. Yes, I do hunt them from October - January. I do NOT do any field trials because I do not have the time since I am a responsible adult and have to support my wife, home stead, and furry friends. When friends and newcomers alike come over they cannot believe how well trained my dogs are or their ability to hunt. I say all of this not to pick on you, but because I believe you are seeing things in black and white and some of your responses are absolutely absurd. You yourself mentioned that you don't care if you hurt someone's feelings - this tells me there may be a deeper reason to why you are closer to your dogs than humans. They are your dogs and you can do what you wish with them. By all means I don't think you treat them wrong in any way, I just think you should take each buyer on a personal basis and not judge them because they have less than someone else. That's why I LOVE my breeder. They treated me as a human and not trash because I am less fortunate than others. Challenge your self and find the right home for one of your dogs with someone who WORKS HARD to make their family happy no matter what their situation, color, or age. You would be surprised how happy you may make them....and your pup. I will be breeding my dogs in the future for the first time and thanks to some posts on here, I know what to do but more importantly I know what NOT to do.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:38 pm

SHaRPS wrote:Gertie - Lets just say YOU are 50 years old, have a Director position, and own a $500,000 house on 10 acres of land and breed dogs as you currently do. You wake up that morning, go to work, and your boss tells you that you are fired. Are you now in your own list of "don't sell to" ???? I am 29, married for 2 years, and yet to have children. I have been with my wife for 14 years and had 1 GSP which I already put down at age 13 (my first and extremely tough), I still have an 11 old EP, and now have a 1.5 year old male GSP and a 3 month old female GSP. All trained by me for the field and house and exercised daily so that when I am ready for bed, they beat me to it and there is no fuss. Oh, I also live in the city in an apartment. Yes, I do hunt them from October - January. I do NOT do any field trials because I do not have the time since I am a responsible adult and have to support my wife, home stead, and furry friends. When friends and newcomers alike come over they cannot believe how well trained my dogs are or their ability to hunt. I say all of this not to pick on you, but because I believe you are seeing things in black and white and some of your responses are absolutely absurd. You yourself mentioned that you don't care if you hurt someone's feelings - this tells me there may be a deeper reason to why you are closer to your dogs than humans. They are your dogs and you can do what you wish with them. By all means I don't think you treat them wrong in any way, I just think you should take each buyer on a personal basis and not judge them because they have less than someone else. That's why I LOVE my breeder. They treated me as a human and not trash because I am less fortunate than others. Challenge your self and find the right home for one of your dogs with someone who WORKS HARD to make their family happy no matter what their situation, color, or age. You would be surprised how happy you may make them....and your pup. I will be breeding my dogs in the future for the first time and thanks to some posts on here, I know what to do but more importantly I know what NOT to do.

We'll thought out and we'll said.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:59 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
SHaRPS wrote:Gertie - Lets just say YOU are 50 years old, have a Director position, and own a $500,000 house on 10 acres of land and breed dogs as you currently do. You wake up that morning, go to work, and your boss tells you that you are fired. Are you now in your own list of "don't sell to" ???? I am 29, married for 2 years, and yet to have children. I have been with my wife for 14 years and had 1 GSP which I already put down at age 13 (my first and extremely tough), I still have an 11 old EP, and now have a 1.5 year old male GSP and a 3 month old female GSP. All trained by me for the field and house and exercised daily so that when I am ready for bed, they beat me to it and there is no fuss. Oh, I also live in the city in an apartment. Yes, I do hunt them from October - January. I do NOT do any field trials because I do not have the time since I am a responsible adult and have to support my wife, home stead, and furry friends. When friends and newcomers alike come over they cannot believe how well trained my dogs are or their ability to hunt. I say all of this not to pick on you, but because I believe you are seeing things in black and white and some of your responses are absolutely absurd. You yourself mentioned that you don't care if you hurt someone's feelings - this tells me there may be a deeper reason to why you are closer to your dogs than humans. They are your dogs and you can do what you wish with them. By all means I don't think you treat them wrong in any way, I just think you should take each buyer on a personal basis and not judge them because they have less than someone else. That's why I LOVE my breeder. They treated me as a human and not trash because I am less fortunate than others. Challenge your self and find the right home for one of your dogs with someone who WORKS HARD to make their family happy no matter what their situation, color, or age. You would be surprised how happy you may make them....and your pup. I will be breeding my dogs in the future for the first time and thanks to some posts on here, I know what to do but more importantly I know what NOT to do.
We'll thought out and we'll said.

This was exactly my point earlier. We do not believe one rule fits all. We try to place our puppies in good situations. We have sold puppies to all manner of owners. If you take the time to meet the buyers you can get a pretty good sense of how they will do with the puppy. I do not rule out anyone because of their lifestyle. Most will not be breeding dogs and I will have little if any effect on the breed in the long run.
I do not like sight unseen credit card sales. That seems a little to impersonal for my taste. not saying I absolutely would not do it just a bit skeptical..................Cj

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:51 pm

SHaRPS wrote:Gertie - Lets just say YOU are 50 years old, have a Director position, and own a $500,000 house on 10 acres of land and breed dogs as you currently do. You wake up that morning, go to work, and your boss tells you that you are fired. Are you now in your own list of "don't sell to" ???? I am 29, married for 2 years, and yet to have children. I have been with my wife for 14 years and had 1 GSP which I already put down at age 13 (my first and extremely tough), I still have an 11 old EP, and now have a 1.5 year old male GSP and a 3 month old female GSP. All trained by me for the field and house and exercised daily so that when I am ready for bed, they beat me to it and there is no fuss. Oh, I also live in the city in an apartment. Yes, I do hunt them from October - January. I do NOT do any field trials because I do not have the time since I am a responsible adult and have to support my wife, home stead, and furry friends. When friends and newcomers alike come over they cannot believe how well trained my dogs are or their ability to hunt. I say all of this not to pick on you, but because I believe you are seeing things in black and white and some of your responses are absolutely absurd. You yourself mentioned that you don't care if you hurt someone's feelings - this tells me there may be a deeper reason to why you are closer to your dogs than humans. They are your dogs and you can do what you wish with them. By all means I don't think you treat them wrong in any way, I just think you should take each buyer on a personal basis and not judge them because they have less than someone else. That's why I LOVE my breeder. They treated me as a human and not trash because I am less fortunate than others. Challenge your self and find the right home for one of your dogs with someone who WORKS HARD to make their family happy no matter what their situation, color, or age. You would be surprised how happy you may make them....and your pup. I will be breeding my dogs in the future for the first time and thanks to some posts on here, I know what to do but more importantly I know what NOT to do.

Boy oh boy didn't I just learn a lot about myself! Please, share more of your keen perception to presume to tell me what my priorities are and how I should think. I do so value your very insightful analysis of my psyche. In the meantime, I'll endeavor to "challenge myself" to give your very enlightening (i.e. pretentious and patronizing) opinion the due consideration that it deserves :roll:

mask · Post by **mask** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:45 pm

I wont try to defend Gertie, as she is called on here, because she can take care of herself and then some. Why if you do indeed breed hunting dogs would you want them to go to anything other than a hunting/trialing home? The shelters and rescues in treasure valley are full and overflowing. The setter rescue and gsp rescues have no more room. Other parts of the country may not have this problem but for those who do not hunt much or trial may consider a non hunting breed in a shelter or a hunting breed from a rescue. Gertie is the real deal and I would hunt with her anytime. If there were not to many dogs being bred we would not need shelters or rescues.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:55 pm

mask wrote:I wont try to defend Gertie, as she is called on here, because she can take care of herself and then some. Why if you do indeed breed hunting dogs would you want them to go to anything other than a hunting/trialing home? The shelters and rescues in treasure valley are full and overflowing. The setter rescue and gsp rescues have no more room. Other parts of the country may not have this problem but for those who do not hunt much or trial may consider a non hunting breed in a shelter or a hunting breed from a rescue. Gertie is the real deal and I would hunt with her anytime. If there were not to many dogs being bred we would not need shelters or rescues.

I hear what you are saying but there are many reasons to look some where other than a shelter or a rescue. And I am sure that there is no way to defend that the number of dogs in shelters or rescue would be eliminated by less breeding.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:04 pm

I got to thinking about this whole argument that hunting dogs end up in shelters... I took a look at a few of the local shelters and out of a baker's dozen, only two were remotely close to hunting breeds: a Shepard/lab cross and a hound/lab cross.

Now I haven't checked the breed rescues, and I understand it's a small sample, but it appears locally that most shelter dogs are mixed breeds. Nothing that serious breeders need to worry about.

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:42 pm

I quit reading this topic a while ago. Now on page 2. Was wondering what made this topic worth more than 3 replies. NOTHING! Gertie does what she thinks gives the few pups she raises the best chance to be happy. Hope all breeders do the same. Some require fenced yards, to be a trial family, that you test your pup, only give limited registration, own your house, live with the dog, they want to pick your pup for you. They have that right. Grow up and go find a breeder that fits your situation and needs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:47 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:I got to thinking about this whole argument that hunting dogs end up in shelters... I took a look at a few of the local shelters and out of a baker's dozen, only two were remotely close to hunting breeds: a Shepard/lab cross and a hound/lab cross.

Now I haven't checked the breed rescues, and I understand it's a small sample, but it appears locally that most shelter dogs are mixed breeds. Nothing that serious breeders need to worry about.

My experience also. I don't think many of us know this but I saw a program a year ago about importing dogs from S. America and Europe for the shelters because they weren't getting enough locally anymore to supply the demand for dogs to adopt. I followed up on it and found it to be true. Just isn't what we all have been led to believe.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:50 pm

greg jacobs wrote:I quit reading this topic a while ago. Now on page 2. Was wondering what made this topic worth more than 3 replies. NOTHING! Gertie does what she thinks gives the few pups she raises the best chance to be happy. Hope all breeders do the same. Some require fenced yards, to be a trial family, that you test your pup, only give limited registration, own your house, live with the dog, they want to pick your pup for you. They have that right. Grow up and go find a breeder that fits your situation and needs.

What makes it worth discussing is the OP poster asked for everyones opinion. No one is trying to tell someone else what theuy have to do but we all can discuss what we do and WHY.

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:59 pm

No. People are judging. People like always think that everyone should think the way they think. It went far beyond simply answering the op's question

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:43 pm

greg jacobs wrote:No. People are judging. People like always think that everyone should think the way they think. It went far beyond simply answering the op's question

Why is it bad to have a discussion about a decision and the reasons you made it? I see no one upset or mad, but I do see some honest opinions of why each person feels like they do. I think that is the purpose of discussions of this type and the beauty of the internet that provides all of us a method of doing it, just like you and I right now not agreeing but trying to explain where we are coming from.

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:30 am

Gertie wrote:
SHaRPS wrote:Gertie - Lets just say YOU are 50 years old, have a Director position, and own a $500,000 house on 10 acres of land and breed dogs as you currently do. You wake up that morning, go to work, and your boss tells you that you are fired. Are you now in your own list of "don't sell to" ???? I am 29, married for 2 years, and yet to have children. I have been with my wife for 14 years and had 1 GSP which I already put down at age 13 (my first and extremely tough), I still have an 11 old EP, and now have a 1.5 year old male GSP and a 3 month old female GSP. All trained by me for the field and house and exercised daily so that when I am ready for bed, they beat me to it and there is no fuss. Oh, I also live in the city in an apartment. Yes, I do hunt them from October - January. I do NOT do any field trials because I do not have the time since I am a responsible adult and have to support my wife, home stead, and furry friends. When friends and newcomers alike come over they cannot believe how well trained my dogs are or their ability to hunt. I say all of this not to pick on you, but because I believe you are seeing things in black and white and some of your responses are absolutely absurd. You yourself mentioned that you don't care if you hurt someone's feelings - this tells me there may be a deeper reason to why you are closer to your dogs than humans. They are your dogs and you can do what you wish with them. By all means I don't think you treat them wrong in any way, I just think you should take each buyer on a personal basis and not judge them because they have less than someone else. That's why I LOVE my breeder. They treated me as a human and not trash because I am less fortunate than others. Challenge your self and find the right home for one of your dogs with someone who WORKS HARD to make their family happy no matter what their situation, color, or age. You would be surprised how happy you may make them....and your pup. I will be breeding my dogs in the future for the first time and thanks to some posts on here, I know what to do but more importantly I know what NOT to do.
Boy oh boy didn't I just learn a lot about myself! Please, share more of your keen perception to presume to tell me what my priorities are and how I should think. I do so value your very insightful analysis of my psyche. In the meantime, I'll endeavor to "challenge myself" to give your very enlightening (i.e. pretentious and patronizing) opinion the due consideration that it deserves :roll:

Gerti - like I said, they are your dogs and you have all the right to sell them to who ever you wish and I am glad you place them in good homes. Same goes for me and everyone else, we just have different opinions on what makes a dog happy. The only reason I posted is because everything you mentioned earlier about age, housing, etc. Put me in your category of who you would not sell to. I was just hoping that you could put yourself in my shoes and still figure out a way to convince the breeder (you in this situation ) why a hunting breed CAN have a good life, be hunted, and still get what it needs daily in any environment as long as the owner abides and understands what it means to own a hunting breed. That's why I care about your opinion. I will have limitations to who I sell to as well, but they are not your reasons.

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:35 am

mask wrote:I wont try to defend Gertie, as she is called on here, because she can take care of herself and then some. Why if you do indeed breed hunting dogs would you want them to go to anything other than a hunting/trialing home? The shelters and rescues in treasure valley are full and overflowing. The setter rescue and gsp rescues have no more room. Other parts of the country may not have this problem but for those who do not hunt much or trial may consider a non hunting breed in a shelter or a hunting breed from a rescue. Gertie is the real deal and I would hunt with her anytime. If there were not to many dogs being bred we would not need shelters or rescues.

I hear you, but why do people breed and buy pit bull's when they don't hunt hogs, why do they get collies when they don't herd livestock? To me it's simple. It doesn't matter because at days end black or white, German or polish, it's man's best friend and a good owner is looking for a relationship and companionship with any 4 legger and will do what they can to make them happy in their environment. There are ZERO hunting breeds in shelters around me as well.

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:45 am

ezzy333 wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:I quit reading this topic a while ago. Now on page 2. Was wondering what made this topic worth more than 3 replies. NOTHING! Gertie does what she thinks gives the few pups she raises the best chance to be happy. Hope all breeders do the same. Some require fenced yards, to be a trial family, that you test your pup, only give limited registration, own your house, live with the dog, they want to pick your pup for you. They have that right. Grow up and go find a breeder that fits your situation and needs.
What makes it worth discussing is the OP poster asked for everyones opinion. No one is trying to tell someone else what theuy have to do but we all can discuss what we do and WHY.

Exactly.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:28 am

greg jacobs wrote:I quit reading this topic a while ago. Now on page 2. Was wondering what made this topic worth more than 3 replies. NOTHING! Gertie does what she thinks gives the few pups she raises the best chance to be happy. Hope all breeders do the same. Some require fenced yards, to be a trial family, that you test your pup, only give limited registration, own your house, live with the dog, they want to pick your pup for you. They have that right. Grow up and go find a breeder that fits your situation and needs.

Greg, I don't think anyone is suggesting Gertie change. She can do as she pleases with her pups as she has a right to do. And I'll add that I believe she's doing the right thing by not selling to just anyone, because not everyone should have a dog, let alone a high energy breed. But this topic was brought up on a forum for discussion and that's exactly what people are doing. Not everyone will share the same values and opinions, but there's the possibility of increased understanding here. Breeders can learn the buyers' perspectives and vice versa, as well as breeders learning the perspective of other breeders. And that's why this thread has had so many replies.

As a buyer, not a breeder, I don't like being lumped in with a group of people I have little in common with other than demographical characteristics (young couple, non-home owner), because it does not affect my dogs negatively. That's my perspective to share.

And honestly, compared to some threads, this one has been quite civil.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:57 am

IMO a discussion like this is what this forum should be about. I found it interesting and everybody got a chance to express their opinion..................Cj

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:15 pm

Gertie wrote:
SHaRPS wrote:Gertie - Lets just say YOU are 50 years old, have a Director position, and own a $500,000 house on 10 acres of land and breed dogs as you currently do. You wake up that morning, go to work, and your boss tells you that you are fired. Are you now in your own list of "don't sell to" ???? I am 29, married for 2 years, and yet to have children. I have been with my wife for 14 years and had 1 GSP which I already put down at age 13 (my first and extremely tough), I still have an 11 old EP, and now have a 1.5 year old male GSP and a 3 month old female GSP. All trained by me for the field and house and exercised daily so that when I am ready for bed, they beat me to it and there is no fuss. Oh, I also live in the city in an apartment. Yes, I do hunt them from October - January. I do NOT do any field trials because I do not have the time since I am a responsible adult and have to support my wife, home stead, and furry friends. When friends and newcomers alike come over they cannot believe how well trained my dogs are or their ability to hunt. I say all of this not to pick on you, but because I believe you are seeing things in black and white and some of your responses are absolutely absurd. You yourself mentioned that you don't care if you hurt someone's feelings - this tells me there may be a deeper reason to why you are closer to your dogs than humans. They are your dogs and you can do what you wish with them. By all means I don't think you treat them wrong in any way, I just think you should take each buyer on a personal basis and not judge them because they have less than someone else. That's why I LOVE my breeder. They treated me as a human and not trash because I am less fortunate than others. Challenge your self and find the right home for one of your dogs with someone who WORKS HARD to make their family happy no matter what their situation, color, or age. You would be surprised how happy you may make them....and your pup. I will be breeding my dogs in the future for the first time and thanks to some posts on here, I know what to do but more importantly I know what NOT to do.
Boy oh boy didn't I just learn a lot about myself! Please, share more of your keen perception to presume to tell me what my priorities are and how I should think. I do so value your very insightful analysis of my psyche. In the meantime, I'll endeavor to "challenge myself" to give your very enlightening (i.e. pretentious and patronizing) opinion the due consideration that it deserves :roll:

Yup. Guess all is well

Bacon1676 · Post by **Bacon1676** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:18 am

Guess I will throw my 2 cents in here for fun...

I have found this topic interesting. One's perception of a good or bad owner/situation can differ so widely, yet fall in similar lines. We all want what's best for our dogs, but is there really a right and wrong way of going about doing things? What I feel is acceptable isn't always acceptable to my wife and we have had many discussions on how we should go about doing a certain thing with our puppy. Regardless of what we decide he is always fed, exercised, and loved. IMO, as long as an owner is responsible that should be sufficient. If you can't handle average breed requirements you shouldn't get that type of breed.

Being in the horses and seeing how some customers interact with animals I have found the more urban our society has become the less common sense, when it comes to animals, people have. Not saying that everyone who grows up in a city without animal contact is this way, I'm simply stating that we have gone from a life style of a dog being a tool (having a job) to more of an accessory. I wanted a hunting dog to hunt with so that's what my wife and I got, settled on a puppy b/c we could meet the demands a puppy requires. If we couldn't have met those demands we would have either not gotten a dog or at least gotten an older dog. But there was a job, which I feel all dogs and humans for that matter need to have, for him to do that put his mind to use, but that is another topic for a different board. So, if I like the the look of a GSP, but didn't want to hunt him specifically and wanted to do dock jumping with him instead I feel like that should be sufficient for a non hunting family to want a hunting type breed. However, if I want all my litters to go to hunting homes I have that right, but it doesn't make a hunting family better than a non hunting family.

luvthemud · Post by **luvthemud** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:11 pm

As long as the dog is cared for, given opportunities for exercise, and kept healthy, I don't believe it should matter if they are living in a "hunting home"

What the heck is even considered a "hunting home"? I know lots of people who own hunting breeds that keep them cooped up in a kennel 48 weeks out of the year and only get them out for a few weekends of duck/pheasant hunting. Those dogs are worse off IMO than many dogs that live with "non-hunters".

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:08 am

luvthemud wrote:As long as the dog is cared for, given opportunities for exercise, and kept healthy, I don't believe it should matter if they are living in a "hunting home"

What the heck is even considered a "hunting home"? I know lots of people who own hunting breeds that keep them cooped up in a kennel 48 weeks out of the year and only get them out for a few weekends of duck/pheasant hunting. Those dogs are worse off IMO than many dogs that live with "non-hunters".

Yep

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:03 am

luvthemud wrote:As long as the dog is cared for, given opportunities for exercise, and kept healthy, I don't believe it should matter if they are living in a "hunting home"

What the heck is even considered a "hunting home"? I know lots of people who own hunting breeds that keep them cooped up in a kennel 48 weeks out of the year and only get them out for a few weekends of duck/pheasant hunting. Those dogs are worse off IMO than many dogs that live with "non-hunters".

Then what are you doing breeding hunting lines if you don't know or care if they ever hunt, let alone be any good at it? So you're just lining your pockets breeding your own mediocre, unproven dogs that hunt maybe a couple times per year? I'm sure you're doing all kinds of homework on pedigrees, COI, etc. Not to mention getting all the appropriate health screenings and genetic tests. I bet you'll be producing some real top-notch pups :roll: I look forward to your future post here trying to sell these fine specimens as I'm sure the last person to actually invest the time and effort into putting the titles on that dog two or three generations back that you're milking for every dollar the name is worth will be. All kinds of dogs, including mutts and shelter dogs are good pets. Maybe you ought to leave the breeding to people who actually care about producing high quality hunting dogs that are in high enough demand that the breeder can be judicious about the homes they end up in and find yourself another way to make a few bucks. I'll be thinking of you next time I see a crooked-toothed hunting dog at the shelter where I volunteer.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:35 am

Gertie wrote:
luvthemud wrote:As long as the dog is cared for, given opportunities for exercise, and kept healthy, I don't believe it should matter if they are living in a "hunting home"

What the heck is even considered a "hunting home"? I know lots of people who own hunting breeds that keep them cooped up in a kennel 48 weeks out of the year and only get them out for a few weekends of duck/pheasant hunting. Those dogs are worse off IMO than many dogs that live with "non-hunters".
Then what are you doing breeding hunting lines? Just lining your pockets? All kinds of dogs, including mutts and shelter dogs are good pets.

Our dogs are not hunting lines but rather are dogs that will point a bird. I have terriers that are just as much hunters as our Hounds, Sporting breeds, Retrievers, and many of our working and herding breeds. All dogs hunted when they were wild and true to nature they still do but what we are breeding are dogs that hunt in a particular manner. I think most of us like to see our pups go to home where they will get the chance to hunt but most of us also realize those pups do not have to hunt birds to be happy and content. And that is way more important than just hunting.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:30 pm

Fine. If producing pets is your thing then great. Have at it but don't pretend that producing quality dogs that are capable of performing in the field is your goal or that you care about the integrity of the breed as hunting companions foremost. I don't claim to know everything about how the whole "breeding thing" is supposed to go. To date, I have raised one litter of pups. However, before the breeding I studied pedigrees, ran COIs, researched the success of similar breedings, contacted people who I respect that are knowledgable in the breed to gain their insight, and ensured that my dog and the stud had certifications for all of the appropriate health screenings. I know where every one of those pups are and keep tabs on how they're doing. As a result, all 10 of those pups are doing well, performing at or above the level of their peers, and are in excellent hunting and/or trial homes where they are well cared for and get to do what they were bred to do often and I never had to advertise to sell a single one. All sold by word of mouth. I receive regular updates on their performance in the hunting field and at trials (AF, AKC, and NSTRA). This past weekend I had the opportunity to see one of the pups at a field trial. He got around clean with two birds in a broke dog stake in tough conditions at 20 months old and looked good doing it. I have also had the pleasure of hunting over a couple of them and was proud of what of what I saw and very pleased with how much their owners enjoyed and loved their pups. In addition, I consider every one of them my responsibility until they die and I would pay to take any one of them back in a heartbeat at any time in their life and can guarantee not one of them will ever end up as a rescue dog in some shelter. I was under the impression that that's what it means to be a responsible breeder of fine hunting dogs. I guess my standards are a little high for some of you but I wouldn't do it any other way.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:11 pm

Good on you Gertie. It is fun to go hunting with people you sold pups to, and especially great to hear feedback from folks that have your pups.

Here's a recent photo I received of one of my 6 mo pups.

mask · Post by **mask** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:48 pm

Gertie and SCT go to great lengths to breed outstanding individuals and I commend them. I know there is a ton of time and expense dedicated to their endeavors and I appreciate that. I have never heard a bad word about either of these folks and I have heard very good things about their dogs. I believe they are doing things right and hope they continue their success. Gertie your standards are not to high but right at the level they should be if some don't get that, so be it. I believe well bred hunting dogs should be hunted and or trialed.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:53 pm

SCT wrote:Good on you Gertie. It is fun to go hunting with people you sold pups to, and especially great to hear feedback from folks that have your pups.

Here's a recent photo I received of one of my 6 mo pups.

Thanks Mask. Appreciate the vote of confidence.

SCT, I'll bet that picture made you smile when you saw it. Beautiful pup. Nicely done. Here are a couple of pups from Gert's litter at about the same age (6 mo). The pup in the first photo was a ham as soon as he got his eyes open and I guess he hasn't quit yet

The second one is the pup I kept out of the litter. Her name is Wheels. She's going to spend the summer with Jamie Daniels in South Dakota and I'm really looking forward to seeing what she does next fall! Hope to see you out there sometime. Love those pretty pointers!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:59 pm

Gertie wrote:Fine. If producing pets is your thing then great. Have at it but don't pretend that producing quality dogs that are capable of performing in the field is your goal or that you care about the integrity of the breed as hunting companions foremost. I don't claim to know everything about how the whole "breeding thing" is supposed to go. To date, I have raised one litter of pups. However, before the breeding I studied pedigrees, ran COIs, researched the success of similar breedings, contacted people who I respect that are knowledgable in the breed to gain their insight, and ensured that my dog and the stud had certifications for all of the appropriate health screenings. I know where every one of those pups are and keep tabs on how they're doing. As a result, all 10 of those pups are doing well, performing at or above the level of their peers, and are in excellent hunting and/or trial homes where they are well cared for and get to do what they were bred to do often and I never had to advertise to sell a single one. All sold by word of mouth. I receive regular updates on their performance in the hunting field and at trials (AF, AKC, and NSTRA). This past weekend I had the opportunity to see one of the pups at a field trial. He got around clean with two birds in a broke dog stake in tough conditions at 20 months old and looked good doing it. I have also had the pleasure of hunting over a couple of them and was proud of what of what I saw and very pleased with how much their owners enjoyed and loved their pups. In addition, I consider every one of them my responsibility until they die and I would pay to take any one of them back in a heartbeat at any time in their life and can guarantee not one of them will ever end up as a rescue dog in some shelter. I was under the impression that that's what it means to be a responsible breeder of fine hunting dogs. I guess my standards are a little high for some of you but I wouldn't do it any other way.

I guess we can assume from this post, that none of these puppies are full time family dogs and part time hunters. Maybe they do not have the temperament to be a calm house dog and a hi-powered field dog. Mine do. I consider that a very important trait in GSPs. I do not know about setters. Maybe not. I do not consider someone calling one of my pups a pet an insult.
Why do you assume that there are no quality dogs that are family dogs and that you are the only one who cares about the integrity of the breed. Their are some of us that do not necessarily consider a titled dog the ultimate bird dog or producer top quality bird dog pups.
You may feel superior because you produced a decent litter, but you are doing nothing different than about 98% of the breeders I know. You also have a long ways to go to consider yourself a breeder. Until you get to at least two or three generations you are just taking advantage of somebody elses work. If you produced a 10 puppy litter that are all superior dogs you probably are the first person in the history of dog breeding to do that. With super dogs like that I would think you really lined your pockets. I must admit I have never had a 10 puppy litter that were all perfect. I wish I would. maybe next time. I am breeding two perfect dogs right now. Remember they do not all come out equal.
There once was a time when I knew it all too, but mother nature cured me of that.
We will take back a dog anytime the owner would not want it for any reason. The only requirement is that it must be alive.
Good luck in the future. But be aware you are not going to have a long term affect on the Setter breed and I am not going to have much affect on the GSP breed.
Lighten up and enjoy...........................Cj

mask · Post by **mask** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:10 pm

To lighten up and enjoy is always a good idea. There are breeders and then there are breeders.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:48 pm

cjhills wrote:
Gertie wrote:Fine. If producing pets is your thing then great. Have at it but don't pretend that producing quality dogs that are capable of performing in the field is your goal or that you care about the integrity of the breed as hunting companions foremost. I don't claim to know everything about how the whole "breeding thing" is supposed to go. To date, I have raised one litter of pups. However, before the breeding I studied pedigrees, ran COIs, researched the success of similar breedings, contacted people who I respect that are knowledgable in the breed to gain their insight, and ensured that my dog and the stud had certifications for all of the appropriate health screenings. I know where every one of those pups are and keep tabs on how they're doing. As a result, all 10 of those pups are doing well, performing at or above the level of their peers, and are in excellent hunting and/or trial homes where they are well cared for and get to do what they were bred to do often and I never had to advertise to sell a single one. All sold by word of mouth. I receive regular updates on their performance in the hunting field and at trials (AF, AKC, and NSTRA). This past weekend I had the opportunity to see one of the pups at a field trial. He got around clean with two birds in a broke dog stake in tough conditions at 20 months old and looked good doing it. I have also had the pleasure of hunting over a couple of them and was proud of what of what I saw and very pleased with how much their owners enjoyed and loved their pups. In addition, I consider every one of them my responsibility until they die and I would pay to take any one of them back in a heartbeat at any time in their life and can guarantee not one of them will ever end up as a rescue dog in some shelter. I was under the impression that that's what it means to be a responsible breeder of fine hunting dogs. I guess my standards are a little high for some of you but I wouldn't do it any other way.
I guess we can assume from this post, that none of these puppies are full time family dogs and part time hunters. Maybe they do not have the temperament to be a calm house dog and a hi-powered field dog. Mine do. I consider that a very important trait in GSPs. I do not know about setters. Maybe not. I do not consider someone calling one of my pups a pet an insult.
Why do you assume that there are no quality dogs that are family dogs and that you are the only one who cares about the integrity of the breed. Their are some of us that do not necessarily consider a titled dog the ultimate bird dog or producer top quality bird dog pups.
You may feel superior because you produced a decent litter, but you are doing nothing different than about 98% of the breeders I know. You also have a long ways to go to consider yourself a breeder. Until you get to at least two or three generations you are just taking advantage of somebody elses work. If you produced a 10 puppy litter that are all superior dogs you probably are the first person in the history of dog breeding to do that. With super dogs like that I would think you really lined your pockets. I must admit I have never had a 10 puppy litter that were all perfect. I wish I would. maybe next time. I am breeding two perfect dogs right now. Remember they do not all come out equal.
There once was a time when I knew it all too, but mother nature cured me of that.
We will take back a dog anytime the owner would not want it for any reason. The only requirement is that it must be alive.
Good luck in the future. But be aware you are not going to have a long term affect on the Setter breed and I am not going to have much affect on the GSP breed.
Lighten up and enjoy...........................Cj

First off, I started my post there with the disclaimer that I by no means knew all there is to know about this "breeding thing" and that I've only bred one litter so I'm by no means an expert. That said, I did follow the advice of breeders who have made a considerable contribution in the setter world and feel that I did right by the pups and contributed a quality litter that may serve, however small a role, to the betterment of the breed even if none of them ever produce offspring. I think that effort should be standard and is not something that I "feel superior" for doing. Secondly, all the pups are family pets but that is a secondary role. They were purchased to hunt or trial. It's also interesting that you presume they are not pets first and foremost because they are "high strung" field dogs. Good temperaments is something that comes with breeding biddable dogs and should just be a "given". Mine live in the house and spend time outside while I'm at work, as do most of the pups from that litter. None of the pups went to homes where they would be just be kennel dogs. Believe it or not it is possible to have a high performing, field capable dog that has an "off switch". Call me crazy, I just believe that hunting breeds should hunt and that this page was set up for people who feel the same. Also, having an opinion about an issue near and dear to my heart does not mean I need to "lighten up". I have a good time with my dogs and I hunt and compete with them to enhance the quality of life for both them and myself. It's fun to see a dog do what it was bred to do and to watch my dog perform a good piece of bird work with style is enough to keep me smiling through any crappy work week and that's what it's all about!

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:34 pm

Well said Gertie and beautiful pics. ( computer has died and I'm on my Nexus $%^&*%^&* so can't say much.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:57 pm

One question. What would you do if you had a pup that Was obviously not going to make it as a trial or hunting prospect for some genetic reason, but would make a nice pet, would you put that puppy down or sell or give it to a pet home?
It will happen if you are in business long enough
The future of the hunting breeds is in family/ hunting dogs.
I could not care less how or where you sell your puppies. But, I do feel you are being a bit short sighted and a bit insulting to pet dog owners.
There are many very good pointing dog breeders who sell puppies to non-hunters. They are not breeding inferior bird dogs. They are breeding well rounded dogs that will perform in many venues.
There are many people who want a hunting breed for the same reason that hunters want them. Generally they are good looking athletic dogs who have been bred for generations to be people oriented, trainable dogs who make great running partners and are very good at agilty and most other athletic events. I think it is acting a little superior to say these people should get a rescue dog and do not deserve the dog they choose. Who knows maybe they will start hunting......................Cj

luvthemud · Post by **luvthemud** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:33 pm

Gertie wrote:
luvthemud wrote:As long as the dog is cared for, given opportunities for exercise, and kept healthy, I don't believe it should matter if they are living in a "hunting home"

What the heck is even considered a "hunting home"? I know lots of people who own hunting breeds that keep them cooped up in a kennel 48 weeks out of the year and only get them out for a few weekends of duck/pheasant hunting. Those dogs are worse off IMO than many dogs that live with "non-hunters".
Then what are you doing breeding hunting lines if you don't know or care if they ever hunt, let alone be any good at it? So you're just lining your pockets breeding your own mediocre, unproven dogs that hunt maybe a couple times per year? I'm sure you're doing all kinds of homework on pedigrees, COI, etc. Not to mention getting all the appropriate health screenings and genetic tests. I bet you'll be producing some real top-notch pups :roll: I look forward to your future post here trying to sell these fine specimens as I'm sure the last person to actually invest the time and effort into putting the titles on that dog two or three generations back that you're milking for every dollar the name is worth will be. All kinds of dogs, including mutts and shelter dogs are good pets. Maybe you ought to leave the breeding to people who actually care about producing high quality hunting dogs that are in high enough demand that the breeder can be judicious about the homes they end up in and find yourself another way to make a few bucks. I'll be thinking of you next time I see a crooked-toothed hunting dog at the shelter where I volunteer.

Lol, I am not a breeder. Never intend to, so don't await a post from me in the for sale section.

Was simply sharing my opinion and asking a somewhat rhetorical question. "What is a hunting home?"

75% of the people I know with "hunting dogs" that live in "hunting homes" that bought their dogs from "hunting line kennels" don't have their dogs "hunting" more than a few times a year. I would have thought that most breeders would hate to see that and would rather have those dogs living in an outdoor active/loving family even if it meant that the dogs wouldnt necessarily be getting their stimulation from "hunting".

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:40 pm

cjhills wrote:One question. What would you do if you had a pup that Was obviously not going to make it as a trial or hunting prospect for some genetic reason, but would make a nice pet, would you put that puppy down or sell or give it to a pet home?
It will happen if you are in business long enough
The future of the hunting breeds is in family/ hunting dogs.
I could not care less how or where you sell your puppies. But, I do feel you are being a bit short sighted and a bit insulting to pet dog owners.
There are many very good pointing dog breeders who sell puppies to non-hunters. They are not breeding inferior bird dogs. They are breeding well rounded dogs that will perform in many venues.
There are many people who want a hunting breed for the same reason that hunters want them. Generally they are good looking athletic dogs who have been bred for generations to be people oriented, trainable dogs who make great running partners and are very good at agilty and most other athletic events. I think it is acting a little superior to say these people should get a rescue dog and do not deserve the dog they choose. Who knows maybe they will start hunting......................Cj

If there was a demonstrable good reason that a pup could not function as hunting/trial dog I would be willing to sell it to a pet home with a signed contract stating that the dog would be altered at 6 months. I would also be looking into where that genetic defect came from and not only taking that into consideration for future breedings but also making other breeders aware of the issue with the hope of reducing the likelihood of it become a persistent problem within the breed.
Maybe you think hunting dogs should be bred to be pets but I don't. I feel they should be bred to hunt first and foremost. If people want to go out and buy a hunting breed for a "pet" they can have at it but I'd never sell them one of my dogs (outside the aforementioned circumstance) and I'm not going to assume that they're miraculously going to start hunting. Form should follow function not the other way around. Also, I sure as heck wouldn't encourage anyone looking for a hunting dog to buy anything from a breeder that's cranking pups out just to sell to whoever either. I actually like what the pudelpointer people have going on. Most of those breeders insist that not only their buyers be hunters, but they make them sign a contract that they will run the pup in at least entry level utility tests. Don't wanna do it, don't get a pudelpointer. Simple as that. I think it's a brilliant way to preserve the integrity of the breed. As far as your perception that I'm "acting superior" it is just that, your perception and it's got nothing to do with me. At no point have I directly insulted you, I have simply stated my preference, and if your feelings are hurt then that's your problem. Be insulted if you want. That's your prerogative and no skin off my nose.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:41 pm

luvthemud wrote:
Gertie wrote:
luvthemud wrote:As long as the dog is cared for, given opportunities for exercise, and kept healthy, I don't believe it should matter if they are living in a "hunting home"

What the heck is even considered a "hunting home"? I know lots of people who own hunting breeds that keep them cooped up in a kennel 48 weeks out of the year and only get them out for a few weekends of duck/pheasant hunting. Those dogs are worse off IMO than many dogs that live with "non-hunters".
Then what are you doing breeding hunting lines if you don't know or care if they ever hunt, let alone be any good at it? So you're just lining your pockets breeding your own mediocre, unproven dogs that hunt maybe a couple times per year? I'm sure you're doing all kinds of homework on pedigrees, COI, etc. Not to mention getting all the appropriate health screenings and genetic tests. I bet you'll be producing some real top-notch pups :roll: I look forward to your future post here trying to sell these fine specimens as I'm sure the last person to actually invest the time and effort into putting the titles on that dog two or three generations back that you're milking for every dollar the name is worth will be. All kinds of dogs, including mutts and shelter dogs are good pets. Maybe you ought to leave the breeding to people who actually care about producing high quality hunting dogs that are in high enough demand that the breeder can be judicious about the homes they end up in and find yourself another way to make a few bucks. I'll be thinking of you next time I see a crooked-toothed hunting dog at the shelter where I volunteer.

Lol, I am not a breeder. Never intend to, so don't await a post from me in the for sale section.

Was simply sharing my opinion and asking a somewhat rhetorical question. "What is a hunting home?"

75% of the people I know with "hunting dogs" that live in "hunting homes" that bought their dogs from "hunting line kennels" don't have their dogs "hunting" more than a few times a year. I would have thought that most breeders would hate to see that and would rather have those dogs living in an outdoor active/loving family even if it meant that the dogs wouldnt necessarily be getting their stimulation from "hunting".

That comment was directed at Sharps who in a previous post stated his intent to breed his dogs.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:55 pm

mask wrote:Gertie and SCT go to great lengths to breed outstanding individuals and I commend them. I know there is a ton of time and expense dedicated to their endeavors and I appreciate that. I have never heard a bad word about either of these folks and I have heard very good things about their dogs. I believe they are doing things right and hope they continue their success. Gertie your standards are not to high but right at the level they should be if some don't get that, so be it. I believe well bred hunting dogs should be hunted and or trialed.

Thank you very much Mask, for the kind words. I, like Gertie, and many others, do my best to breed quality bird dogs. I also like to get them in hunting hands first and foremost, but, I also pride myself on the social aspect of my dogs and frequently hear about what great personalities they have. "Smart" and "calm" are two of the most used words when folks describe them, but the word "wild" sneaks in quite a bit;-) I like the owners who keep them in the house as much as the owners that keep them outside like myself. Bottom line for me is to produce hard driving bird dogs with high intelligence, good noses, that are healthy, physical specimens that want to do nothing more than find birds. Many of them pick it up early in life. Anyway, thanks again for the kind words.

Gertie, you've got some beautiful setters there. If I were a setter person I'd look hard at Highground Jax Jabba as a stud dog, if the paper lined up and made sense. I wish he was a pointer;-) I like his longevity! Jamie Daniels is doing a great job these days on the big circuit, can't go wrong with him.

Cjhills, I can't answer that question because if one of my pups didn't have the consistent hunting traits that I expect because of a genetic flaw (can't even imagine what would cause that), I would be looking at more than just that dog! I'd be evaluating the dam and sire and likely my whole breeding program and standard. Hope I never have to face something so devastating. Just don't see it happening.

Steve

luvthemud · Post by **luvthemud** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:49 pm

Gertie wrote:
That comment was directed at Sharps who in a previous post stated his intent to breed his dogs.

Gotcha. I commend your dedication to the pups you plan on producing.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:52 pm

For you people who think your lines are bullet proof as far as health goes, be prepared to take a few pups back due to defects. From an OFA chart(2006) of probability of getting a dysplastic hipped puppy even though both parents are OFA.

Breeding 2 OFA-Excellent dogs together - chances of getting a dysplastic pup 4%
Breeding 2 OFA-Good dogs together- chances of getting dysplastic pup 10%
Breeding 2 OFA-Fair dogs together- chances of getting a dysplastic pup 20%
Breeding 2 OFA Dysplastic dogs together-- chances of getting a dysplastic pup 36%

These figures are from 43,000 OFA'd dogs(all breeds not just sporting breeds) If you breed enough dogs you will sell some with bad hips--EVEN though you thought the lines were clean for many past generations

. I still only use OFA'd dogs because you have better odds of selling a good hipped pup and not a defect---BUT THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE THAT ONE OF YOUR PUPS WILL HAVE BAD HIPS. So don't think that everything you sell is healthy--you need to be prepared to take a dog or two back if needed :roll: I'm guessing these results are a little bit better now that people are better educated on breeding these days. I just hate it when people say to me ALL their pups will be defect free. All this is JMO and is not aimed at anyone. I'm just trying to open some eyes, because eventually it will happen, no matter how careful you are.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:53 pm

luvthemud wrote:
Gertie wrote:
That comment was directed at Sharps who in a previous post stated his intent to breed his dogs.
Gotcha. I commend your dedication to the pups you plan on producing.

Honestly, I don't even know if I will. But if I do I guess they better be good

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:38 pm

Gertie wrote:
cjhills wrote:One question. What would you do if you had a pup that Was obviously not going to make it as a trial or hunting prospect for some genetic reason, but would make a nice pet, would you put that puppy down or sell or give it to a pet home?
It will happen if you are in business long enough
The future of the hunting breeds is in family/ hunting dogs.
I could not care less how or where you sell your puppies. But, I do feel you are being a bit short sighted and a bit insulting to pet dog owners.
There are many very good pointing dog breeders who sell puppies to non-hunters. They are not breeding inferior bird dogs. They are breeding well rounded dogs that will perform in many venues.
There are many people who want a hunting breed for the same reason that hunters want them. Generally they are good looking athletic dogs who have been bred for generations to be people oriented, trainable dogs who make great running partners and are very good at agilty and most other athletic events. I think it is acting a little superior to say these people should get a rescue dog and do not deserve the dog they choose. Who knows maybe they will start hunting......................Cj
If there was a demonstrable good reason that a pup could not function as hunting/trial dog I would be willing to sell it to a pet home with a signed contract stating that the dog would be altered at 6 months. I would also be looking into where that genetic defect came from and not only taking that into consideration for future breedings but also making other breeders aware of the issue with the hope of reducing the likelihood of it become a persistent problem within the breed.
Maybe you think hunting dogs should be bred to be pets but I don't. I feel they should be bred to hunt first and foremost. If people want to go out and buy a hunting breed for a "pet" they can have at it but I'd never sell them one of my dogs (outside the aforementioned circumstance) and I'm not going to assume that they're miraculously going to start hunting. Form should follow function not the other way around. Also, I sure as heck wouldn't encourage anyone looking for a hunting dog to buy anything from a breeder that's cranking pups out just to sell to whoever either. I actually like what the pudelpointer people have going on. Most of those breeders insist that not only their buyers be hunters, but they make them sign a contract that they will run the pup in at least entry level utility tests. Don't wanna do it, don't get a pudelpointer. Simple as that. I think it's a brilliant way to preserve the integrity of the breed. As far as your perception that I'm "acting superior" it is just that, your perception and it's got nothing to do with me. At no point have I directly insulted you, I have simply stated my preference, and if your feelings are hurt then that's your problem. Be insulted if you want. That's your prerogative and no skin off my nose.

At no point did I say you insulted me. People like you can not insult me. I have heard it all. You did pretty much lump everybody who wants a hunting breed that will not hunt together and say a breeder who sells to them is just interested in lining their pockets and does not care about the breed. Pretty judgmental. Also very,very wrong. you have no way of controlling what happens to your pup once he leaves your kennel.
Sct: I do agree with you but I have never talk to a long time breeder who has not had an occasional surprise. It is impossible to breed out everything.......................cj

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:15 am

Cjhills, I have no doubt you are right. I dread the day that something shows up in the skeleton, organs or nervous system, that debilitates one of my dogs. Like I said, if that happens I will be looking at my whole program and selective process, not just that dog. I will never breed a lot of litters a year, 1-2 max, so I hope to keep it clean!

By the way, here's a photo a client sent me recently. This is a pup out of my last litter. He said "he's so smart and calm, house broke and only play's with his own toys." Says he's never seen anything like him." Hope he still likes him that much a year from now;-)

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:13 am

SCT wrote:Cjhills, I have no doubt you are right. I dread the day that something shows up in the skeleton, organs or nervous system, that debilitates one of my dogs. Like I said, if that happens I will be looking at my whole program and selective process, not just that dog. I will never breed a lot of litters a year, 1-2 max, so I hope to keep it clean!

By the way, here's a photo a client sent me recently. This is a pup out of my last litter. He said "he's so smart and calm, house broke and only play's with his own toys." Says he's never seen anything like him." Hope he still likes him that much a year from now;-)

He will !!!!!

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:13 am

cjhills wrote:
Gertie wrote:
cjhills wrote:One question. What would you do if you had a pup that Was obviously not going to make it as a trial or hunting prospect for some genetic reason, but would make a nice pet, would you put that puppy down or sell or give it to a pet home?
It will happen if you are in business long enough
The future of the hunting breeds is in family/ hunting dogs.
I could not care less how or where you sell your puppies. But, I do feel you are being a bit short sighted and a bit insulting to pet dog owners.
There are many very good pointing dog breeders who sell puppies to non-hunters. They are not breeding inferior bird dogs. They are breeding well rounded dogs that will perform in many venues.
There are many people who want a hunting breed for the same reason that hunters want them. Generally they are good looking athletic dogs who have been bred for generations to be people oriented, trainable dogs who make great running partners and are very good at agilty and most other athletic events. I think it is acting a little superior to say these people should get a rescue dog and do not deserve the dog they choose. Who knows maybe they will start hunting......................Cj
If there was a demonstrable good reason that a pup could not function as hunting/trial dog I would be willing to sell it to a pet home with a signed contract stating that the dog would be altered at 6 months. I would also be looking into where that genetic defect came from and not only taking that into consideration for future breedings but also making other breeders aware of the issue with the hope of reducing the likelihood of it become a persistent problem within the breed.
Maybe you think hunting dogs should be bred to be pets but I don't. I feel they should be bred to hunt first and foremost. If people want to go out and buy a hunting breed for a "pet" they can have at it but I'd never sell them one of my dogs (outside the aforementioned circumstance) and I'm not going to assume that they're miraculously going to start hunting. Form should follow function not the other way around. Also, I sure as heck wouldn't encourage anyone looking for a hunting dog to buy anything from a breeder that's cranking pups out just to sell to whoever either. I actually like what the pudelpointer people have going on. Most of those breeders insist that not only their buyers be hunters, but they make them sign a contract that they will run the pup in at least entry level utility tests. Don't wanna do it, don't get a pudelpointer. Simple as that. I think it's a brilliant way to preserve the integrity of the breed. As far as your perception that I'm "acting superior" it is just that, your perception and it's got nothing to do with me. At no point have I directly insulted you, I have simply stated my preference, and if your feelings are hurt then that's your problem. Be insulted if you want. That's your prerogative and no skin off my nose.
At no point did I say you insulted me. People like you can not insult me. I have heard it all. You did pretty much lump everybody who wants a hunting breed that will not hunt together and say a breeder who sells to them is just interested in lining their pockets and does not care about the breed. Pretty judgmental. Also very,very wrong. you have no way of controlling what happens to your pup once he leaves your kennel.
Sct: I do agree with you but I have never talk to a long time breeder who has not had an occasional surprise. It is impossible to breed out everything.......................cj

Gertie,

As I stated before, you can do what you wish with your dogs and I know you treat them well and sell them to great people and I also applaud you. At the end of the day if that makes you happy, great, but as stated before you will never control the integrity of the breed. What you state is best for the breed is only your opinion. As you can see there are people on "The Gun Dog Forum" that both agree and disagree with your opinion (and mine) yet they are hunters and own hunting dogs and I put money on it that both the human and dog is HAPPY. If your prime goal is to preserve the breed then it sounds to me like you should be rescuing hunting breeds from kennels and not breeding them - again, just my opinion. Now, as far as "lining my pockets" - very judgmental for sure. I can assure you that my pups will also go to great homes, be happy forever or I too will take them back no questions asked. Will they hunt, that's the plan and that's why I am breeding them but that doesn't mean my sister who wants an active dog doesn't deserve one if she does what she needs to fill its life with joy. Hunting for a dog is INSTINCTUAL and honed in with training. I know for sure if the dogs are trained well they will be great hunters and house dogs just like my dogs. In my opinion, a dog isn't born with a tag around its neck that says, "I must hunt to be happy". Not all of us have the time to hunt and trial dogs every day, I sure don't yet my dog's don't hate me. The funny thing is, my 1.5 year old GSP still happily pointed almost 100 birds in his first season and I live in an apartment in a city and have no kids. When I go home today both my GSP's greet me with wagging tails, wide eyes, and don't care if we go hunting - they care about me and I care about them. HAPPY is what we all make of it and how it is handed down to our family/dogs/pets - I don't care what you call them. I am not God, I can only do what is best in the environment I have been handed and worked my butt off for. My pups just like yours will all be happy whether 3 legged, 1 eyed, best of breed, or cuddled up with mom on the couch. Sounds like you and I on the opposite end of the scale, yet aiming for the same goal.

SHaRPS · Post by **SHaRPS** » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:19 am

Gertie,

I failed to mention one more thing. We both have people around us that know we care about our dogs and the breed and will do what we can to ensure they last forever. The difference between you and I and the reason I keep posting - I would 100% sell you one of my dogs, but I have no shot at getting one of yours because you classified me as incompetent for the breed. I know you don't care if someone's feelings are hurt, but do you not see a slight flaw in your theory at all?

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:02 pm

No, I do not see a "flaw in my theory" (whatever that means). Good luck with your "breeding program". I'm sure you'll have no problem producing lots and lots of "happy little tail waggers".

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:31 pm

Gertie wrote:No, I do not see a "flaw in my theory" (whatever that means). Good luck with your "breeding program". I'm sure you'll have no problem producing lots and lots of "happy little tail waggers".

We have established from your previous post that your goal is to breed pets that hunt or possibily hunting dogs that are pets. For some reason, known only to you , you are much better at this than anyone else.
You are willing to sell your garbage to someone who is not worthy of owning one of your super dogs
and every one else is just "out to line their pockets and has no integrity or cares anything about thebreed"
To reach this lofty goal, you have bought a puppy or two ran a few trials, hunted a little, learned phrases like COI and OFA read a book or two on breeding dogs,
and bred a litter of wonder puppies by breeding your female with a male recommended by like minded friends. Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!. Congratulations!!!!! you have accomplished what other people have spent lifetimes trying to do. You are my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It may come as a surprise to you but what you have is not a breeding program and one litter does not qualify you as a breeder or to tell every one else they are money grubbing vermin.
Come back when you have bred several generations of these dogs or at least when the litter accomplishes something.
Oh, by the way, you are not improving the breed you are simply breeding more of what a real breeder already has done.
It is a wonder that the English Setters breed survived without you all these years.
I commend you for trying to do what you think is right. Thing is, most breeders also want that and your goals are about the same has mine or everybody else's. The difference being that we try to improve our program and you try to repeat somebody else's.
Enjoy your dogs. It is a journey not a destination........................Cj

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:40 pm

cjhills wrote:
Gertie wrote:No, I do not see a "flaw in my theory" (whatever that means). Good luck with your "breeding program". I'm sure you'll have no problem producing lots and lots of "happy little tail waggers".
We have established from your previous post that your goal is to breed pets that hunt or possibily hunting dogs that are pets. For some reason, known only to you , you are much better at this than anyone else.
You are willing to sell your garbage to someone who is not worthy of owning one of your super dogs
and every one else is just "out to line their pockets and has no integrity or cares anything about thebreed"
To reach this lofty goal, you have bought a puppy or two ran a few trials, hunted a little, learned phrases like COI and OFA read a book or two on breeding dogs,
and bred a litter of wonder puppies by breeding your female with a male recommended by like minded friends. Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!. Congratulations!!!!! you have accomplished what other people have spent lifetimes trying to do. You are my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It may come as a surprise to you but what you have is not a breeding program and one litter does not qualify you as a breeder or to tell every one else they are money grubbing vermin.
Come back when you have bred several generations of these dogs or at least when the litter accomplishes something.
Enjoy your dogs. Itis a journey not a destination........................Cj

Wow. Such vitriol. Classy post, btw. I'm not claiming to be an experienced "breeder" but at least I'm making an effort to do it right. Thumbs up to both of you for proving my point. Thanks!