Long time listener, first time caller: Britt?

[speng5]

Hey all

Lurked this site off and on for a while. In the next year I have plans in the next year or 2 for another dog, looking at Brittanys more and more lately. More I read about them the more I like. As much as I would like a big running 60+ lb dog, sadly at the request of my better half this dog needs to be a house dog first. (Not to say you can't keep a GSP or EP in the house, but a Britt seems less like forcing a square peg in a round hole).

Two questions here about the britt. A kennel near me has some britts that seem to be real good dogs, matter of fact theyre traced back to Tequila's Joker. Also Beans Blaze and Nolans Last bullet. Although, I am a foot hunter and I don't trial. Would these dogs be too much dog for your average guy? I have access to train on a huge tract of ground 5-6 days a week, during the season I have many weeks off where I will hunt 3-4+ days a week. So yes the dog will have an outlet. But if a dog of those lines is going to be burning a track up ahead 700 yards I might as well have bought an English Pointer.

Question 2: I duck hunt a bit. I'm not hard core enough to call myself a waterfowler, but I like going to early teal season here and hunting little sloughs, and I'll hunt a couple weekends here and there jump shooting wood ducks through about mid november. Assuming I could get a Britt to be a reliable water retriever (how likely is that?), would they be able to handle october-november in Iowa retrieving ducks? Some mornings get pretty brisk but the sloughs and ponds I hunt, very few of them would present more than a 50 yard retrieve, no current, and 3-4 feet deep max so it definitely isn't Chessie style work.

Thanks all and any experience to a brittany's well-roundedness (or lack thereof) would be appreciated.

[mnaj_springer]

Welcome to the forum!

I can't tell you much about Brits other than a few anecdotes about the dogs of others, but I have some other thoughts.

First of all, my EP, at almost two years old, weighs a modest 42 pounds. In the grouse woods her range, on average has been 70 yards, but she's touched 200 on occasion. In the pheasant fields those numbers are 85 and 300 respectively. So not the stereotype of a trial EP.

Secondly, due to your size needs and desire to have a little fun in the water, have you considered a small munsterlander? I'm sure, like any breed, lineage matters, but I've heard good things.

Good luck!

[oldbeek]

My last Brittany was Beans blaze granddaughter. Extremely intelligent and almost perfect. I looked for a dog from the same line when she died. My current dog is from Peter Gun ( Google Pete) and tequila joker line. Great grandmother is nolans last bullet. Beans blaze is there also. She would range out 1/2 mile at 12 weeks old hitting objectives with confidence. She recognized at 1 year old that she needed me to shoot the bird all on her own. She is never out of my sight for over 30 second unless she is on point. if she scents birds over a hill and out of sight she goes into a slink mode until she recognizes I see her and then she goes in. We travel a lot in a 27 ft 5r and a Brittany is an excellent size for that. As for running big, in chucker country she will range out 1/2 mile easy if I can still see her. She will cover a 40 acre NSTRA field 2 time in 30 minutes casting back and forth. Nose excellent. We had a little disagreement during FF training but when I won out, she will retrieve anything I tell her to. She is not soft as some Britts are. Am I biased ? You bet !

[speng5]

thanks for replies, folks!

Mnaj springer:

Would your EP happen to be Elhew pointer by chance? Seems like real close for a pointer but that would sure be nice! At least for me. I'd have no problem with a pointer like that, were it not for the fact that I do enjoy some early season duck hunting.

As far as a munsterlander goes, I have given that some thought. A friend explained to me that they were the opposite of Weimaraners in America (no offense to any Weim owners, matter of fact I grew up with them). As in with Weims, there are a ton of dogs, and only a few with any hunt. Munsters, there are only a few of the dogs, but dang near all are real nice hunters. There's actually a breeder here in state that has some VERY VERY nice dogs. Like, as in some of the best Munsters around. I've just got it in my head I want a bird dog, not necessarily a V-dog but I may have to keep an open mind.


Old Beek:

Couple questions, I see you said FF was kind of a disagreement, and you state yours is not as soft as most brittanys. I have had Weims, labs, beagles, and a couple cockers. How does an average brittany fit in that mix softness/training presure wise?

Also, after FF, will your Britt do a short water retrieve on a small duck like a woody or a teal?

[High Voltage]

I have seen Britts that are just as good in the water as on land. Don't know where you are located but you might want to check out NAVHDA, if there is a chapter close to you go to a training day, you can watch the dogs work and get to talk to owners and get an idea what would work best for you.
http://www.navhda.org/

[speng5]

I have seen Britts that are just as good in the water as on land. Don't know where you are located but you might want to check out NAVHDA, if there is a chapter close to you go to a training day, you can watch the dogs work and get to talk to owners and get an idea what would work best for you.
http://www.navhda.org/

Funny you should bring this up, I was talking to a fellow the other day about wanting to have a Britt that could bring back some little ducks out of warm water in a pinch. He said "You know, there ought to be some out there, because Britts are a recognized NAVHDA breed". I have heard some folks in the past say that FRENCH britts are recognized in that whereas AMERICANS aren't. I don't know enough about NAVHDA to support or refute that. Anyone know? On NAVHDA's website it just says "Brittany", and doesn't specify American or French....

[mnaj_springer]

Speng, I don't know for sure because she's a bit of a "rescue" and came with no papers. But I would suspect she is, for a few reasons. PM me if you want to know the reason.

[oldbeek]

My Brittany is very independent and not soft at all.. She was determined to not fetch. It took 3 short sessions a day for 3 weeks. One day she just said OK and started doing everything perfect. We moved to the ground and she acted like she had been doing it for years. I started FF because she decided it was more fun to point birds than retrieve them. Right now at 2 1/2 years she knows how to back. We have done every drill over and over with pop up, launched birds, live dogs ect. over and over again. She knows I want her to back, BUT, she would rather go find her own bird. What pis___s me off is she usually does find her own bird shortly after blinking a back. I will win this battle some day.
Never had her on ducks but she will fetch a dummy on water. I have seen some real soft Brittanys that you can't even talk harsh to let alone a e-collar. Some trainers assume all britts will be soft.
Dogs out of the line you first mentioned probably will not be soft, but probably are pricey and are worth every penny.

[Trekmoor]

I've only had 3 britts. All of them were or are a "bit independently minded" compared to any other gundog breeds I 've had (Labs, springers, cockers, GSP's, vizslas.) None of the 3 britts took kindly to anything resembling "hard" handling/corrections. All 3 would happily retrieve game from water but only one of them would swim just for the fun of it. All 3 loved hunting (more so than retrieving) all 3 would hunt woodlands fairly close in or open ground such as the Scottish grouse moors a long way out by my standards which means no more than about 400 yards ......or else ! All 3 were/are very good house dogs and are good with children , other dogs etc.

I still place them behind the GSP in terms of easiness of training. Britts make you think a bit more before you act ! GSP's are more forgiving of training mistakes ......I.M.O.

Bill T.

[jetjockey]

Don't get a Brit if you want a house dog. They make HORRIBLE house dogs, and they don't like being spoiled either!

[speng5]

I've only had 3 britts. All of them were or are a "bit independently minded" compared to any other gundog breeds I 've had (Labs, springers, cockers, GSP's, vizslas.) None of the 3 britts took kindly to anything resembling "hard" handling/corrections. All 3 would happily retrieve game from water but only one of them would swim just for the fun of it. All 3 loved hunting (more so than retrieving) all 3 would hunt woodlands fairly close in or open ground such as the Scottish grouse moors a long way out by my standards which means no more than about 400 yards ......or else ! All 3 were/are very good house dogs and are good with children , other dogs etc.

I still place them behind the GSP in terms of easiness of training. Britts make you think a bit more before you act ! GSP's are more forgiving of training mistakes ......I.M.O.

Bill T.

Thanks for the response Bill. I notice you are in Scotland. Would the Britts you've had be American Brittanys or French Brittanys? My understanding is that while considerably smaller, the french britt is for the most part more "versatile" (hopefully the right word) than the bigger, American counterpart (considerably more "bird dog").

[speng5]

Don't get a Brit if you want a house dog. They make HORRIBLE house dogs, and they don't like being spoiled either!

Nice to see, jetjockey! While I consider myself a serious hunter, this dog is also going to be a house pet too and I've got the better half holding the reigns on some of this choice as a result. I'll be sure to include your photos in part of my argument

[ncpointers]

The Briitany can be a house dog 50 weeks and still be an avid hunter the other 2. You cannot go wrong with a well bred Brittany.

Here is Nixon living the rough life. He has earned 21 points this year running NSTRA. It must be a hard life!

image.jpeg

[Dakotazeb]

I agree. You won't go wrong with a well bred Brittany. My female is a spoiled rotten house dog but a tremendous hunter and field trialer. She loves water and retrieves great on land and from the water. But bear in mind a Brittany won't withstand the cold in the water as well as some other breeds. If it's warm water duck hunting you are doing, no problem. Good luck.

[jetjockey]

Don't get a Brit if you want a house dog. They make HORRIBLE house dogs, and they don't like being spoiled either!

Nice to see, jetjockey! While I consider myself a serious hunter, this dog is also going to be a house pet too and I've got the better half holding the reigns on some of this choice as a result. I'll be sure to include your photos in part of my argument

The darker one is a pretty decent All Age dog as well. She's a totally different dog off horse, off foot, and in the house. The lighter one is her daughter. She's out of the recent back to back 2X NFC, and we are hoping she will turn out to be a nice trial dog as well. They are both pretty heavily bred with trial blood, yet they are great house dogs.

[Trekmoor]

I've only had 3 britts. All of them were or are a "bit independently minded" compared to any other gundog breeds I 've had (Labs, springers, cockers, GSP's, vizslas.) None of the 3 britts took kindly to anything resembling "hard" handling/corrections. All 3 would happily retrieve game from water but only one of them would swim just for the fun of it. All 3 loved hunting (more so than retrieving) all 3 would hunt woodlands fairly close in or open ground such as the Scottish grouse moors a long way out by my standards which means no more than about 400 yards ......or else ! All 3 were/are very good house dogs and are good with children , other dogs etc.

I still place them behind the GSP in terms of easiness of training. Britts make you think a bit more before you act ! GSP's are more forgiving of training mistakes ......I.M.O.

Bill T.

Thanks for the response Bill. I notice you are in Scotland. Would the Britts you've had be American Brittanys or French Brittanys? My understanding is that while considerably smaller, the french britt is for the most part more "versatile" (hopefully the right word) than the bigger, American counterpart (considerably more "bird dog").

I cannot really make much of a comparison between the 3 brits I've had (two of them are still with me.) My first brit , in fact my first ever pointing dog of any breed had a dam from Texas U.S.A. and a sire direct from France. That pup was big by our standards here and looked more like a small setter than like a typical French Brittany. She won in field trials and she won in the show ring too.

She is still the only brit in this country to have been placed in our HPR Championships and that must be 25 years or more ago now ! She also won at Crufts dog show which made her a pretty valuable bitch back then but that could not happen now. The showing mob, which is about 95% of the folk who own brits here, wanted only the supposedly "correct" French type to win ! They got American brits banned from our showrings.

In trials and when just working her she could and often did outrun my mates much larger GSP 's etc. She could even keep up with the pointers and setters but not for long when hunting the hills in heather where their longer legs took them more easily over the tops of the heather. Many people thought she must have had " hybrid vigour."

I do not think the French type of Brittany is more "versatile." Most of the folk who have the breed here cannot even begin to train them ! I believe that to be as much the fault of their owners than of the dogs. They buy what wins in the show ring and very often do not even know how good hunt-point-retrieve dog should work.
In our N.A.T. tests (Natural aptitude tests) many of these basically show people only turn up to try to get a bit of paper (handed out like confetti at a wedding) that they consider to be proof their dog is a good 'un because it points ! :roll: Jeeeeeeez ! I've even got a nutcase cocker spaniel that points !!

The pointed birds are held in cages and very often when a dog points one it has been "guided" to the cage by it's proud owner. I've seen some of these dogs "point" while pushing their noses through the wires of the cage ........... it really annoys me ! I get a red face just watching these folk go into ecstasies when they get that bit of paper to show off among their showing friends.

Needless to say I have never been asked to judge at one of these events ! My feelings on the subject have been given vent to many times ! :roll:

Now to try to be fair about this, a dog can't help who it gets as an owner and in the right hands French brits can be very good......BUT ......several years ago I was introduced to a man who is an "A" Panel judge of pointers and setters here and who has won the pointer/setter championships. As soon as he heard who I was he bowed to me in front of everyone at the shoot and swept his hat off too. I asked him what the heck he was doing. He replied ...." I take my hat off to anyone who can train one of those things !" He meant a Brittany. He'd tried and he'd failed.

I often wonder if one of the reasons Brits do better in the states and over on the continent than they do here is that in those other countries most folk do use e-collars and do train F.F. ???? In Britain very, very few folk will even admit to owning an e-collar far less to actually using one and even fewer folk have any idea of how to f.f. a dog.

I do own an e-collar but use it only for "aversion therapy" on sheep chasers. I have some idea about f.f. but never use it to train any dog. I work/train dogs using only what the breeder put into the pups and only what is "in " me. It works out not too bad for me but most other brit owners here have "problems."

Sorry about that long rant.......... you touched on a raw nerve for me when it comes to American v French Brittanies. It's not so much the dogs it's the folk that own them that make the big differences. .......... I.M.O. !

Bill T.

[speng5]

Trekmoor/Bill

Thanks again for another thoughtful response. I guess I was of the impression (maybe across the pond is different) that here Brittanys are of 2 types, American and French. The French being sometimes called Epagneul Breton. I made that comment about a French Britt being more "versatile" because that is just what I have heard from breeders/owners of both. As far as any real science goes, here in the US they are not only listed as different but very much look different too.



Here is what I am used to being called a French Britt. Real small, different head shape, coat style is a bit different, DEEP ticking/roan in either red or black, sometimes with tan markings.



Here is what I am used to being an American Britt. Taller, lankier, different coat type, and orange/red and white sometimes with no ticking or only very light freckling in certain areas.


*DISCLAIMER*
The above has just been my experience and admittedly I know little to nothing about the history/origins/standards of Brittanys, be they American French or otherwise. If anyone can kind of straighten me out on this I would be very grateful, kinda confused myself.

[Dakotazeb]

Trekmoor/Bill

Thanks again for another thoughtful response. I guess I was of the impression (maybe across the pond is different) that here Brittanys are of 2 types, American and French. The French being sometimes called Epagneul Breton. I made that comment about a French Britt being more "versatile" because that is just what I have heard from breeders/owners of both. As far as any real science goes, here in the US they are not only listed as different but very much look different too.



Here is what I am used to being called a French Britt. Real small, different head shape, coat style is a bit different, DEEP ticking/roan in either red or black, sometimes with tan markings.



Here is what I am used to being an American Britt. Taller, lankier, different coat type, and orange/red and white sometimes with no ticking or only very light freckling in certain areas.


*DISCLAIMER*
The above has just been my experience and admittedly I know little to nothing about the history/origins/standards of Brittanys, be they American French or otherwise. If anyone can kind of straighten me out on this I would be very grateful, kinda confused myself.

For the most part I believe you are correct in your comparison of the French and American Brittanys. From my experience around both breeds there is certainly a difference in looks and conformation. In the field the American Britts are generally bigger running dogs. As far as versatility I would have to say the American Britt is the most versatile. But that is based solely on my experience. I'm sure there are others that will chime in on this subject that have far more experience than I.

[Trekmoor]

Thanks for the photographs of the two brit "types." The top photo is typical of most French brits I see here including my own present two bitches.

Somehow when that French look was combined with the look of the American type in my half French, half American first Brittany about 30 years ago now, what I ended up with was a bitch that looked like neither of the two ! She looked very like some of the really old brit types seen in photographs taken in France about a century or more ago ! She was "settery" in appearance and she ran like a good setter can too.

Unfortunately I don't have any good photographs of her ........my daughter used them in an "art project ." :roll:

She was very easy to train to hunt and she pointed from the day I got her at 8 weeks old. By 4 months old she was hunting partridge, pointing them and beginning to hold her points on them. She was a natural. She was a natural retriever too of everything from snipe to geese but she was so difficult to train to retrieve dummies that I almost gave in ! She was a "game" mad wee girl. Wish I had her all over again.

What I saw here in Scotland last year and the previous year astonished me. After all the fuss this countries show folk made to get the American type brits banned here I have now seen pups and adult dogs that came from well known show breeding here that look just about identical to the so called American type. They are big and they have less coat too. How well they could work is still unknown to me because I saw them with folk that couldn't teach goldfish to swim around a bowl !

I think it is "in" the breeding of the Brittany to produce anything from spaniel type dogs to pointer or setter type dogs coz that's what was stirred into the breeding bowl to begin with. Some breeders breed towards one "look" and others toward other looks and all within the same breed.
Rumours fly over here about dodgy doings over in America by breeders using pointers on their brits. I don't worry too much about it because I know folk I trust who have gone searching for new stock in France only to discover that one or two well known French kennels are also keeping a pointer or two handy !

Bill T.

[Trekmoor]

P.S. This awful photograph is just about all my daughter left me following her art project of that first Brittany. It doesn't really show her settery look but she was a heck of a good working bitch. The bag is a typical afternoons work for her of rabbits, pheasants, partridge and snipe.



The French brits I've had since her have not been as good but that is probably more my fault than theirs. I am 30 years older and a lot less fit ! I have enough trouble just walking out to misbehaving dogs now .......... but I used to "run them down !" Yes, seriously ! I didn't use e-collars then but I probably should now for as the saying goes ......... "The older I get , the better I was !"

Bill T.

[Grange]

My parents, who breed brittanies, are big fans of Nolan's last bullet blood. I work with their brittanies a lot and will be taking one their females with me to complete in a cover dog trial this weekend. These dogs can and are used for foot hunting and have completed off horseback as well.

I don't know how they would do duck hunting, but their brittanies retrieve well and can handle grouse or pheasant hunting in wet conditions in freezing temps, but they are constantly moving. Not sure if they would handle being stationary.