SAD but TRUE

[luvthemud]

I have no dog in this fight but wanted to add...

The expression does say flies, not bees.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_ca ... th_vinegar

Carry on.

[CLAVEYRIVERCURS]

I have no dog in this fight but wanted to add...

The expression does say flies, not bees.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_ca ... th_vinegar

Carry on.

I'm wrong, just always heard it said with bee's.

[RayGubernat]

Jeff -

I commend your diligence in recording the lineage of your dogs. As you said, purebred dogs didn't just fall out of the sky. As far as bird dogs are concerned, their development started, in earnest, in this country, about 150 years ago.

Many years ago, as a young man, I hunted over some very fine bird dogs that were the result of unregistered breedings. These dogs were all out of western Kentucky, Western Tennessee, and southern Indiana and Illinois. one of my uncles came from that area. These dogs were bred by hard core bird hunters who knew and respected each other and who traded studs and bitches and pups back and forth. Those folks knew the lineage of the dogs for generations, but it wasn't written down, at least not that any of them would admit to, and I talked personally to several of them.

FWIW, those dogs all traced back their roots to some of the very finest field trial dogs of the day. It was not a coincidence that a bunch of white and black dogs were named "Smokey", given that Gunsmoke Kennels and its foundation and namesake sire was only a couple hours away. Ferrel Miller was breeding some pretty fair bird dogs not far away in Western Ky, and plenty of folks were breeding top dogs in west TN. They referred to white and black dogs as Rip Rap dogs. If you look up the early history of bird dogs in this country, you will find that name.

Oh and for what it is worth, there was a time that neither you...nor anyone else... would out-walk me. Out run...yes absolutely, but not out walk. Up, down, plowed ground or on a sidehill...didn't matter. I would not allow that to happen. On trips to my uncle's home in Western Ky., we would hunt, on foot from dawn to dusk, stopping for lunch when driving from one farm to another. one year, there was a moon. I went along with some of the old boys that followed coonhounds. They stuck a carbide lantern on my head and we proceeded to follow the hounds, on foot, through woods and creek bottoms. Then birdhunt the next day as well before crashing. The following day...up at dawn again.

Unfortunately, for me, that time has passed. Enjoy your sport.

RayG

[displaced_texan]

So you have the understanding of genetics necessary to breed like that and know what you're going to get?

Because before the dog in my avatar was born I had a really good idea what he would be marked like, how he would hunt, and everything else.

[CLAVEYRIVERCURS]

So you have the understanding of genetics necessary to breed like that and know what you're going to get?

Because before the dog in my avatar was born I had a really good idea what he would be marked like, how he would hunt, and everything else.

Yes I have a understanding of genetics, Am I or do I think I'm a expert NO. All the dogs in this line have the same confirmation , the same coats, the same temperament , same hunting style . They all run bear , lion, bobcat and grey fox, But they all prefer bobcat over any other tree game. As for color or markings NO because this line is made up of two different breeds one of them being Leopard Cur (Now known as Leopard hound with the UKC) A litter of pure Leopards will produce many colors and different markings. Are last litter has a COI of 37.5 % We take are breeding very serious.

[mnaj_springer]

This thread has wander, but it seems it's clear that Jeff had his opinion and asked others for theirs but really wanted support for his own. His opinion won't change but it's nice hearing the reasonable attitudes of most others.

[cjhills]

So you have the understanding of genetics necessary to breed like that and know what you're going to get?

Because before the dog in my avatar was born I had a really good idea what he would be marked like, how he would hunt, and everything else.

Yes I have a understanding of genetics, Am I or do I think I'm a expert NO. All the dogs in this line have the same confirmation , the same coats, the same temperament , same hunting style . They all run bear , lion, bobcat and grey fox, But they all prefer bobcat over any other tree game. As for color or markings NO because this line is made up of two different breeds one of them being Leopard Cur (Now known as Leopard hound with the UKC) A litter of pure Leopards will produce many colors and different markings. Are last litter has a COI of 37.5 % We take are breeding very serious.

So,do you drowned the puppies with genetic defects..........Cj

[displaced_texan]

So you have the understanding of genetics necessary to breed like that and know what you're going to get?

Because before the dog in my avatar was born I had a really good idea what he would be marked like, how he would hunt, and everything else.

Yes I have a understanding of genetics, Am I or do I think I'm a expert NO. All the dogs in this line have the same confirmation , the same coats, the same temperament , same hunting style . They all run bear , lion, bobcat and grey fox, But they all prefer bobcat over any other tree game. As for color or markings NO because this line is made up of two different breeds one of them being Leopard Cur (Now known as Leopard hound with the UKC) A litter of pure Leopards will produce many colors and different markings. Are last litter has a COI of 37.5 % We take are breeding very serious.

So,do you drowned the puppies with genetic defects..........Cj

Or do they make great pets?

[CLAVEYRIVERCURS]

So,do you drowned the puppies with genetic defects..........Cj

Or do they make great pets?

Yes & Yes , Then I sale them to wantabe's like you two.

[displaced_texan]

So,do you drowned the puppies with genetic defects..........Cj

Or do they make great pets?

Yes & Yes , Then I sale them to wantabe's like you two.

I wouldn't pay money for cull, or a hound.

Try again.

Definitely wouldn't pay for a pup you drowned.

[cjhills]

If you "sale" the cull pups to wanabees like me,you have lost your integrity. What prevents the cull buyers from breeding more cull puppies? It takes a lot more than eight generations to get true breeding. You may be half way there. Mother Nature will not help you and the dogs will regress to the mean very quickly.
In 2005 if you looked at the pointer ads in pointing dog journal every dog in there was Elhew. Now if you look you will see none. Bob's life work is pretty well gone in a few generation. I realize there are a still Elhew dogs but not the big deal they once were.
In the long run, papers or no papers, they are all just dogs. Breed what you want and enjoy them. But, allow other breeders the same privilege.
Criticize other breeders all you want but be aware some of us have been there an done that and you are beating your head on the wall.
Breeding a few litters a year is simply not going to have a long term affect on the breed, whatever they are used for....................Cj

[RayGubernat]

Jeff -

You need to take a deep breath.

Bob Whele, a multimillionaire(when a million was a lot of money) bred hundreds, NO thousands of dogs over approximately sixty years and he left the stamp of his very definite vision vision of what a pointer should be on the breed.

But Mr. Whele is gone... and not too long ago either, and the influence of his kennel has already faded...a LOT.

I mentioned Gunsmoke kennels previously. They were originally in southern Illinois or Indiana(can't remember) and they routinely sold a thousand or more dogs to sportsmen for hunting. They also campaigned dogs on the shooting dog circuit to promote their kennel and select future breeding stock. Gunsmoke kennels produced many, many champions. They moved to Alabama, scaled back their operation as the quail populations decreased and the demand for bird dogs decreased until they closed up about 10 years ago.

Fast forward to today and you will be hard pressed to find a competitive field trial pointer with Gunsmoke breeding in the third generation.

The sporting breeds have been selectively bred for a couple hundred years now. In breeds like the pointer, the best of what is there is carried on and the rest is left behind, principally(I believe) because of the competitive pressure to excel. I hope that, as conditions change, the breed continues to adapt and to excel at filling the needs of sportsmen.

If your particular sport even survives another fifty years, which I believe is problematic, perhaps your vision of what a treeing cur will be in evidence. I do hope so as well.

But in the meantime, you need to understand that your opinion is just that...YOUR opinion. Folks are under no obligation to share it or even agree with it. Alienating and insulting fellow sportsmen and sporting dog enthusiasts...does not help you get to where you need to be.

Enjoy your sport.

RayG