What does "Mature" mean?

[Gordon Guy]

With all the bird dog knowledge on this forum I would like some opinions as to what the term "mature" means when it's used in relationship to breeds of dogs and their development from being a puppy to a "functional" gundog. I've read many times in publications (Books and national Magazines) that Gordon Setters are, in general, a late "maturing" breed. What does "mature" mean in that context?

To me the term "maturing" means the time that it takes a gundog puppy to consistently (95% +/- of the time) naturally point it's birds until the handler/owner can walk to the front and flush it without being whoa trained or conditioned.

I've had Gordon puppies do that at 6 months and one that is still are not consistent at 2.5 years

Or is the term used to describe a dog that can handle more pressure (use of an e-collar) during the training process?

And how is that different from other breeds?

[RayGubernat]

I tend to use the term "mature" as a modifier, as in "mature manners around game", or "mature ground application". in this context it is similar to the term "finished".

I have had several dogs that were dead broke at under, or slightly over one year of age, but other aspects of their behavior were far from "mature.

Pointing, even pointing staunchly, is only a part of the equation necessary to equal birds in the bag. The ability to search the available terrain in a productive manner is far more important and, in my opinion, is far more complex of a task for the dog, given all the variables involved. I can teach a dog to point and point staunchly in the yard and have that same dog quite steady and reliable in the field fairly quickly. Having the same dog know where to hunt, how to use the wind, how to sift through live scent, dead scent, foot scent, when to stretch it out and when to suck it in, when to hit the edges, when to dig in to cover, etc...takes a fair bit of time and shoeleather, IMO.

In general, I do believe that setters of all shades, tend to be a bit slower in coming to the same state of development, or maturity if you prefer, when compared to pointers...but this is very much a generalization based on my limited sampling.

Anyhow, that is my .02.

RayG

[shags]

To me mature means that the dog is capable of absorbing training and is able to make the correct decision in more unusual circumstances whether the handler is nearby or distant.

My old setter was mature at 10 months old, but I'm still waiting for my 3 year old to finish growing up.

[ezzy333]

I think mature as used in most cases refers to physical and mental maturity or in other works it has stopped growth in those areas. Using the brain is a different function that is influenced greatly by training and experience. Just two completely different things.

There is research that shows different breeds mature at different ages and as a general factor the bigger the animal the slower it is to mature. It does seem that physical and mental maturity does not happen at the same age and there also seems to be more individual variance in the mental area while physical seems to vary most between breeds. In either case It is a function of genes and nature and has little to do with training. But we do often use the term maturity when we see evidence of the pup making adult decisions though it may be just a marker that indicates it is getting close or at least starting to respond in a manner we want to see in our mature dogs.

Ezzy

[Gordon Guy]

Your answers consistently take into account the "whole" dog concept from physical to mental capacity to take training to ground application and manners in all situations. Thanks for taking the time.

[greg jacobs]

I think when used in that way they are just showing a relationship between different breeds.

[marysburg]

I think the greatest indicator of maturity is consistency in performance, both in the field and at home. The dog delivers a similar performance each time out and the "moments of brilliance" interspersed with "where the heck did that behaviour come from" begin to blend into an even level of work which is more predictable and comfortable for each of the dog and handler. Most of our dogs become consistent (or mature) about age 4, but glimmers of it show in the 3 year old......right before a big unexpected wreck happens. Some breeds are quicker to develop, but each dog is an individual, and you never know how quickly it will all come together and form the finished package.

[Meller]

I think the greatest indicator of maturity is consistency in performance, both in the field and at home. The dog delivers a similar performance each time out and the "moments of brilliance" interspersed with "where the heck did that behaviour come from" begin to blend into an even level of work which is more predictable and comfortable for each of the dog and handler. Most of our dogs become consistent (or mature) about age 4, but glimmers of it show in the 3 year old......right before a big unexpected wreck happens. Some breeds are quicker to develop, but each dog is an individual, and you never know how quickly it will all come together and form the finished package.

+1

[CDN_Cocker]

To me I think of "mature" as kind of all-encompassing. I think of it as the entire package - the dog is physically mature, mature enough to absorb the training you are giving it and performs it consistently, it is consistent on game and how it reacts to it and different situations, and then of course how it behaves in the house and with other dogs. Cockers are also said to be a slow maturing breed. I only have one but what I noticed with him is that he was quick to mature in some aspects, and slow to mature in others. With regards to training, hunting and birds I felt he matured very quickly. There was a definite point (around 9 months old) where he went from being goofy and all over the map to being more consistent and serious. He is now 3 and 1/2 years old and he is all business when it comes to training or hunting and I feel he has been that way for quite awhile - since he was 9 months - 1 yr old. However, outside of birds and drills he is still very immature. He doesn't settle in the house well and gets overly excited with people around. Anyone that meets him asks how old my puppy is. Maturity is a tricky business.

[gonehuntin']

I think the greatest indicator of maturity is consistency in performance, both in the field and at home. The dog delivers a similar performance each time out and the "moments of brilliance" interspersed with "where the heck did that behaviour come from" begin to blend into an even level of work which is more predictable and comfortable for each of the dog and handler. Most of our dogs become consistent (or mature) about age 4, but glimmers of it show in the 3 year old......right before a big unexpected wreck happens. Some breeds are quicker to develop, but each dog is an individual, and you never know how quickly it will all come together and form the finished package.

+2. Great summation.

[CDN_Cocker]

This is kind of a tangent but what breeds are generally thought of as quick to mature and which ones are usually said to be slower?

[SCT]

Some good comments already. Here's a scenario, My 16 month old pup started holding point and allowing me to get in front of him to flush at 13 weeks old. His littermate sister would scent the bird, run in and flush, and chase a long ways at the same age. My male pup became very calm and collected on point by 6 months of age, his sister was hardly pointing at that age and when you walked up to flush for her she'd consider you competition and knock the birds. I considered the male to be mature in developing his traits compared to his sister. No training involved with either pup, except for different socialization from two different homes.

[marysburg]

The lab and golden retriever were fast to grasp obedience and manners on game, but were not consistent until age 3. The three Brittanies were our heart's delight, but did not become consistent until age 4. The GSP has been the 'hands down' easiest pup we ever had , and at age 2 is developing beyond our wildest dreams. Each is an individual, and the breed is likely not as relevant as their own sterling qualities. It is the same as in human families who have 5 children, all raised in the same house with the same parents, but they all turn out as very different individuals.

[Gordon Guy]

Thanks for all the replies. I can also see that a pup taken hunting 6 times a year will certainly "mature" at a different rate than a pup worked several times a week. So many factors are at play here.