My dog result of inbreeding

TDT
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My dog result of inbreeding

Post by TDT » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:25 pm

I have a 5 year old German Wiredhair Pointer that is a great dog and has had plenty of compliments on his hunting ability so I wanted to know more about his pedigree. I went out to the NAVHDA website and found both his parents pedigrees in their database.

It appears that his mothers parents are also his fathers great grandparents. I wouldn't think that this is a good thing but I am not a breeder never have breed him and not sure if there will be any long term health issues. I wanted to see if I could get some opinions on this.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:43 pm

Sounds like you have a nicely linebred dog that is performing well for you. Not much more you could wish for.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:01 pm

TDT wrote:I have a 5 year old German Wiredhair Pointer that is a great dog and has had plenty of compliments on his hunting ability so I wanted to know more about his pedigree. I went out to the NAVHDA website and found both his parents pedigrees in their database.

It appears that his mothers parents are also his fathers great grandparents. I wouldn't think that this is a good thing but I am not a breeder never have breed him and not sure if there will be any long term health issues. I wanted to see if I could get some opinions on this.
That is NOT inbreeding.

That is linebreeding and ..generally, is a good thing because it is usually the result of careful and thoughtful selection. With dogs, inbreeding is brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter and such. And inbreeding in dogs can be an awesome thing, if the two individuals are outstanding. You need to remember that dogs have more chromosomes than humans and that inbreeding is(and has been for eons), a fact of life for wolves, which are genetically identical to out domesticated dogs. nothing fixes traits like inbreeding.

RayG

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Steve007 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:55 pm

Two correct responses by knowledgeable people. Don't let anyone tell you different. It's quite likely that your dog's littermates are every bit as good as he is as a result of correct breeding.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:23 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
TDT wrote:I have a 5 year old German Wiredhair Pointer that is a great dog and has had plenty of compliments on his hunting ability so I wanted to know more about his pedigree. I went out to the NAVHDA website and found both his parents pedigrees in their database.

It appears that his mothers parents are also his fathers great grandparents. I wouldn't think that this is a good thing but I am not a breeder never have breed him and not sure if there will be any long term health issues. I wanted to see if I could get some opinions on this.
That is NOT inbreeding.

That is linebreeding and ..generally, is a good thing because it is usually the result of careful and thoughtful selection. With dogs, inbreeding is brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter and such. And inbreeding in dogs can be an awesome thing, if the two individuals are outstanding. You need to remember that dogs have more chromosomes than humans and that inbreeding is(and has been for eons), a fact of life for wolves, which are genetically identical to out domesticated dogs. nothing fixes traits like inbreeding.

RayG
Line breeding is just a polite name for inbreeding. There is no difference. Nothing fixes traits bad or good like inbreeding. Not likely there would be any issues with your dog at his age
Good share of breeders do inbreeding. But they all know that a breeding between two closely related outstanding individuals can be a disaster.
Some dogs have been linebred for many generations in an attempt to eliminate the bad genetics. Generally now the results are good. but, you need to be prepared for something ugly to rear it's head. Usually it happens early in life and the puppies are swept under the rug.
I realize you said you were not going to breed your dog, but should you choose to.It may be wise to look at an outcross. That, of course, is also a crap shoot
There is not as much inbreeding as people think in wolves. Generally the young males are run off. Most pups are only from the Alpha Bitch and male. Some start a new pack with females from another pack. Many are killed.
The Isle Royal wolf pack where little outcrossing is done due to the isolation of the pack, have Inbred themselves nearly out of existence. They have Genetic Condition in their Spinal column........................Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:40 am

TDT -

You wrote:
It appears that his mothers parents are also his fathers great grandparents. I wouldn't think that this is a good thing but I am not a breeder never have breed him and not sure if there will be any long term health issues. I wanted to see if I could get some opinions on this.


That type of breeding is VERY common in well bred dogs. I see it all the time in competitive pointers. I have no idea who the dogs are, but someone thought enough of them to breed the dam to them. Then someone thought enough of the sire and dam to put them together. What one hopes to achieve by going back to the same "well" of talents, is reinforcement of those talents in the offspring.

Guess what??? It works. When you linebreed and try to "set in" desirable traits...it does not always set in the traits you intended ... but when it does...it works superbly. Just ask pointer folks about Miller or Elhew. Ask the GSP folks about Saddle and the Britt folks about...well... you get my drift. Linebreeding and inbreeding provide consistency in the offspring. Linebreeding and inbreeding concentrate inherited traits.. both good and bad. Sooo, you had better know what you are looking for when you engage in it. But when you mercilessly cull the bad and continue to linebreed the good... the resultant puppies are much more consistent in their genetics and everything else that flows from them. Simply out...linebreeding tends to make every puppy in a litter more like their littermates than different. Breeders who are looking to push the performance envelope and improve the breed use linebreeding and inbreeding ...all the time.

Outcrosses are far more of a crapshoot in terms of inherited abilities. That is not just my opinion. That is a fact.

RayG

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:35 pm

Ray
Tell me the difference between linebreeding and inbreeding.
Actually saying that out crossing is more of a crap shoot is your opinion and not a fact at all, there are many genetic experts who disagree with you.
I have always been a advocate of inbreeding. I strongly suspect that you have done very little if any breeding.
Wehle and Miller bred thousands of dogs. Most were garbage. Many,many dogs were drowned the day they were born. If they got one really good dog they probably got a lot more really bad dogs. Very few of us even know what to look for.
While a could share of competitive dogs are inbred, most of the heavily inbred dogs are pretty risky to breed with and the puppies have a lot of bad issues that show up down the road. The Elhew Pointers have Basically disappeared
As I said to the OP your dog will do well. I think you are right not to breed and if you do go with a outcross.....Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:09 pm

cjhills wrote:Ray
Tell me the difference between linebreeding and inbreeding.
Actually saying that out crossing is more of a crap shoot is your opinion and not a fact at all, there are many genetic experts who disagree with you.
I have always been a advocate of inbreeding. I strongly suspect that you have done very little if any breeding.
Wehle and Miller bred thousands of dogs. Most were garbage. Many,many dogs were drowned the day they were born. If they got one really good dog they probably got a lot more really bad dogs. Very few of us even know what to look for.
While a could share of competitive dogs are inbred, most of the heavily inbred dogs are pretty risky to breed with and the puppies have a lot of bad issues that show up down the road. The Elhew Pointers have Basically disappeared
As I said to the OP your dog will do well. I think you are right not to breed and if you do go with a outcross.....Cj

Cj -

I knew there was a reason I put you on my "ignore" list. You know not what you speak of.

Whele did indeed breed thousands of dogs. AND he got four and five times the going rate for puppies...CONSISTENTLY over several decades. Some of it was salesmanship, but some was careful attention to a "type" of dog that he was breeding for. He was getting a thousand dollars a pup when most every one else was having trouble getting $250.Miller also bred quite a number of dogs, AND his dogs routinely achieved the pinnacle of success in all age trials. They still do.

I do indeed resent the fact that you lump me in with you when you say " Few of us know what to look for". I am fairly certain that I know what to look for in a bird dog, but I don't know if You do.

Brother/sister and similar inbreeding does come with risks, but the rewards can be significant. And YES it is a fact that outcrosses are much more of a crapshoot, if you are looking to produce a high level competitive dog.

Now please stop addressing me, so I can leave you on my "ignore " list. I prefer it that way. Thank you and good night Cj.

RayG

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:17 pm

Inbreeding; mother to son, father to daughter, and full brother to full sister.

Line breeding; granddaughter to grandsire, half sister to half brother (different sire or dam), or any number of combinations with grandparents or great grandparents mixed in the pedigree more than once.

Outcrossing, breeding to a sire or dam outside of pedigree or even outside of breed.

Many people consider there are gray areas between each description but this is how some "experts" describe them. Next question will be "what about COI"?

I personally wouldn't compare Wehle's work to Millers, but that's just me. Miller did a better job of keeping cancer out and keeping skeletons clean IMO;-)

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:05 pm

OP, you say your dog is a great dog, so that breeding has worked. Close breeding like that is done to fix traits and if the animals that are being doubled up on in the pedigree are great dogs, the pups have a much better chance of being great dogs.

Careful breeders take the time to study pedigrees and to do health testing so that they don't double up on health issues or undesirable traits. But the sort of pedigree your dog has is commonly used in some very good and well bred dogs.

I suggest that you stop worrying about it. Perhaps do a little research to find out what those dogs in the pedigree were and why they were considered well worth doubling up on in the pedigree. A little digging and you might be able to find photos of those dogs, or records for wins in hunting tests, and maybe something about siblings to your dog. Some breeders name litters on a theme or all with the same initials, which makes it easier to detect a dog that is related to yours.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by AAA Gundogs » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:48 pm

First, what most people think are outcrosses are just linebreeds when you look past the 3 or 5 generation pedigree.

Second, linebreeding produces winners. While the data isn't easily accessible for a layperson to make an objective statement with dog, it is there for thoroughbred race horses. Not only can you easily determine that linebreeding is highly effective, you can easily see how effective certain lines are highly effective when combined and even what might be more effective as a "by" or "out of".

Horses are a big money game. Breeding is data driven and it has shown... to win consistently, you need to linebreed.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:08 pm

This is all really interesting stuff. This is why I joined this forum and participate. I know I'm not the OP, butThank you to all the respondents.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:21 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:First, what most people think are outcrosses are just linebreeds when you look past the 3 or 5 generation pedigree.

Second, linebreeding produces winners. While the data isn't easily accessible for a layperson to make an objective statement with dog, it is there for thoroughbred race horses. Not only can you easily determine that linebreeding is highly effective, you can easily see how effective certain lines are highly effective when combined and even what might be more effective as a "by" or "out of".

Horses are a big money game. Breeding is data driven and it has shown... to win consistently, you need to linebreed.
Any genetics that are still present from 5 or 6 generations past are so diluted there is little if any linebreeding value left. Us lay people have figured a lot of this out years ago and it is used consistently in breeding most purebred animals over the years. In more recent times the embryo transplants have become a major part of breeding along with the Artificial insemination and has opened up a whole new area of breeding livestock much like GMO has for plants. All of this will be a major factor in feeding the world as well as playing a part in our hobbys.

Ray, I don't need to tell you that you are right about our breeding of dogs but I will since it gives me the opportunity to express my complete agreement.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:44 pm

The thing is when Mr. G gets done with the insults, He might pick up a dictionary and see that Breeding related animals is inbreeding. Linebreeding is a politically correct term used by breeders for breeding dogs that are not quite so closely related.But it is still inbreeding. You will never in your lifetime breed all the bad out or all the good in.
Now consider this. You are much more likely to get the same genes from a brother and sister, father and daughter, mother and son or any closely related combination than from an outcross. That is both good and bad. problem is bad is generally speaking very bad. Basically things like blindness, immune system deficiency, Lethal alleles, Siezures , stuctural issues, all manner of genetic issues that will either kill several of the puppies or be a reason to put them down. The good is more of a quiet issue. JUST what we want.
Be aware that inbreeding is not inherently good or bad. But for all the great inbred dogs people talk about, a lot of litter mates have had issues some are dead. The people like Mr.R. G. who think it is so simple have never tried it.
Incidentally, I do know of what I speak and so do most of the other people on here who actually breed dogs. Everybody has there theories but they are just that. If the answer were as easy as G thinks why hasn't he bred a National Champion and by his owned admission you need to ruthlessly cull your puppies that may means whole litters get the ice water. I do not want to do that. I have learned to stay away from real close breedings. My stud dog is a half brother and sister breeding from a fairly big kennel I think he may have some genetic issues and he is a great dog. But, What would I do if his grand puppies have issues?
So, Gubernate what you are saying is not fact. It is a guess just like everything else about dog breeding
There is a lot of good research on breeding online and a lot of good college courses. Most genetic experts feel like the bad out weighs the good.....................Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:53 pm

i don't give a hoot about political correctness. It's all about responsible selectivity. Doesn't matter if you're outcrossing or tight inbreeding, a responsible breeder will have excellent selective skills. Non-vital puppies usually show themselves early and must be culled. It's painful, but part of breeding.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:27 am

SCT wrote:i don't give a hoot about political correctness. It's all about responsible selectivity. Doesn't matter if you're outcrossing or tight inbreeding, a responsible breeder will have excellent selective skills. Non-vital puppies usually show themselves early and must be culled. It's painful, but part of breeding.
Exactly.
Now with modern testing we can eliminate some of the issues. Such as carriers. Wehele did not have that advantage and carriers did not show up in the whelping box.
The statement. "this is not opininion, it is fact" is absolutely backwards and misleads people who are interested in breeding.
I have had some very expensive train wrecks from believing breeders who used these exact words. That taught me this. They generally come from people who have not been there....................Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:43 am

cjhills wrote:
SCT wrote:i don't give a hoot about political correctness. It's all about responsible selectivity. Doesn't matter if you're outcrossing or tight inbreeding, a responsible breeder will have excellent selective skills. Non-vital puppies usually show themselves early and must be culled. It's painful, but part of breeding.
Exactly.
Now with modern testing we can eliminate some of the issues. Such as carriers. Wehele did not have that advantage and carriers did not show up in the whelping box.
The statement. "this is not opininion, it is fact" is absolutely backwards and misleads people who are interested in breeding.
I have had some very expensive train wrecks from believing breeders who used these exact words. That taught me this. They generally come from people who have not been there....................Cj

Cj -

Stop quoting me. Maybe if you weren' t such and arrogant bunghole, maybe you wouldn't have had those trainwrecks. Breeding paper will get you nothing but more paper. Breeding proven superior dogs, with superior paper, to other superior dogs, with similar superior paper is the correct way to linebreed. It is the correct way to breed also.

Oh and by the way...I do not breed much, for the simple reason that I can buy far, far better dogs as puppies than I can breed myself. My last two puppy purchases had pedigrees that had 30 and 31 field champions, respectively, in their 64 dog , 5 gen pedigrees, as well as a bunch of Hall of Fame dogs. Oh and I saw, with my own eyes, what each of the sires of those litters could do in the field, in competition. I reported one of them and judged one of them. Superior dog...coupled with superior paper, matched up with superior dam with similar and superior paper gives one the best chance of coming up with a superior pup.

If that is indeed what you want.

RayG

Now... for the LAST time...leave me out of your conversations. I do not wish to converse with an arrogant jackass such as yourself, and I do not appreciate being forced to respond to your silliness.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by fuzznut » Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:22 pm

TDT- sounds like the breeder of your dog knew what they were doing!
Line breeding in and of itself is neither a good or a bad thing, IF you know what you are breeding. If you know the dogs in that pedigree, have seen them, watched them and like what you see- it's a good thing.

If you don't know those dogs, their style, their hunting abilities, their health and longevity and are just breeding names because you think you should... it can be a horrible experiment gone bad.

And this is the issue with line breeding, many breeders don't do their homework and breed on what they have heard, or been told, or to titles. But when you have an intimate knowledge of those animals..... and they are proven producers of what you like.. it's the way to continue to produce outstanding animals.

Outcrossing can and does produce some great dogs, but they will be farther and fewer apart. Outcrossing two very tightly line bred individuals can also produce some outstanding animals, but again, one must know as many dogs in the pedigree as possible.

Some of the best GWP breeders I know use Brackets Formula as much as possible- " "Let the sire of the sire become the grand sire on the dam's side". Said another way, “ let the father's father become the mothers grandfather”. http://www.esmondrott.com/breeding_brackett.htm

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by TDT » Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:00 pm

This has been really informative. I have never heard of line breeding or out crossing so i will continue to reasearch that just because it is all interesting. I wasn't really worried about it because I respected the breeder. Unfortunately he hurt his foot today during some training so hopefully the trip to the vet tomorrow will not be to bad.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by AAA Gundogs » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:07 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:First, what most people think are outcrosses are just linebreeds when you look past the 3 or 5 generation pedigree.

Second, linebreeding produces winners. While the data isn't easily accessible for a layperson to make an objective statement with dog, it is there for thoroughbred race horses. Not only can you easily determine that linebreeding is highly effective, you can easily see how effective certain lines are highly effective when combined and even what might be more effective as a "by" or "out of".

Horses are a big money game. Breeding is data driven and it has shown... to win consistently, you need to linebreed.
Any genetics that are still present from 5 or 6 generations past are so diluted there is little if any linebreeding value left. Us lay people have figured a lot of this out years ago and it is used consistently in breeding most purebred animals over the years. In more recent times the embryo transplants have become a major part of breeding along with the Artificial insemination and has opened up a whole new area of breeding livestock much like GMO has for plants. All of this will be a major factor in feeding the world as well as playing a part in our hobbys.

Ray, I don't need to tell you that you are right about our breeding of dogs but I will since it gives me the opportunity to express my complete agreement.

Lol, stick to what you know. Hint, it isn't genetics or stats.

I could have zero duplicate dogs on the 5 Gen but the entire 6 Gen is the same sire/dam. Are you going to argue that that sires or dames DNA is diluted because they're 6th gen?

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:43 pm

From what I've been able to determine, American Brittanys go back to a handful of foundation dogs. That is not to say that our breeding hasn't experienced some unidentified "outcrossing" along the way.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Steve007 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:47 pm

fuzznut wrote: Some of the best GWP breeders I know use Brackets Formula as much as possible- " "Let the sire of the sire become the grand sire on the dam's side". Said another way, “ let the father's father become the mothers grandfather”. http://www.esmondrott.com/breeding_brackett.htm
Lloyd Brackett... Boy, I must have read Planned Breeding from Dog World magazine 20 times -- and portions of it more than that-- when I was an aspiring young breeder. Wouldn't hurt me to read it again for no reason other than enjoyment, memories and interaction with a first-class mind. I should have known that the esteemed fuzznut would know all about him.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:45 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
cjhills wrote:
SCT wrote:i don't give a hoot about political correctness. It's all about responsible selectivity. Doesn't matter if you're outcrossing or tight inbreeding, a responsible breeder will have excellent selective skills. Non-vital puppies usually show themselves early and must be culled. It's painful, but part of breeding.
Exactly.
Now with modern testing we can eliminate some of the issues. Such as carriers. Wehele did not have that advantage and carriers did not show up in the whelping box.
The statement. "this is not opininion, it is fact" is absolutely backwards and misleads people who are interested in breeding.
I have had some very expensive train wrecks from believing breeders who used these exact words. That taught me this. They generally come from people who have not been there....................Cj

Cj -

Stop quoting me. Maybe if you weren' t such and arrogant bunghole, maybe you wouldn't have had those trainwrecks. Breeding paper will get you nothing but more paper. Breeding proven superior dogs, with superior paper, to other superior dogs, with similar superior paper is the correct way to linebreed. It is the correct way to breed also.

Oh and by the way...I do not breed much, for the simple reason that I can buy far, far better dogs as puppies than I can breed myself. My last two puppy purchases had pedigrees that had 30 and 31 field champions, respectively, in their 64 dog , 5 gen pedigrees, as well as a bunch of Hall of Fame dogs. Oh and I saw, with my own eyes, what each of the sires of those litters could do in the field, in competition. I reported one of them and judged one of them. Superior dog...coupled with superior paper, matched up with superior dam with similar and superior paper gives one the best chance of coming up with a superior pup.

If that is indeed what you want.

RayG

Now... for the LAST time...leave me out of your conversations. I do not wish to converse with an arrogant jackass such as yourself, and I do not appreciate being forced to respond to your silliness.
I do not wish to Hijack the Ops very good post. He does deserve an honest answer
Ray, please put me back on ignore, unless it makes you feel like a man to insult me. If so feel free. I just consider the source
You should take a Genetics course at your nearest university you would quickly learn how wrong you are. It will likely be called "Genetic Theories In dog breeding" or " breeding strategies" . It sure will not be "Breeding Facts"
Why do the big trialers breed so many litters. It is certainly not to sell them, Right now you can go to North Dakota and pick up the washouts for free, The winter is tough on the ones that do not make it......................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:57 pm

CJ,

Rather than just stating your opinion, give us something we missed in Genetics 101. I haven't seen anything to prove or backup your posts.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:CJ,

Rather than just stating your opinion, give us something we missed in Genetics 101. I haven't seen anything to prove or backup your posts.
Ezzy Did you not state your opinion or Ray. What backs up yours or Gube's? Your opinon and Ray's are of course more important than a dumb a$$.
Why do the inbred dogs get all good genes and no bad. There is nothing to prove any of these posts. it is all theory. I did not say it was wrong it is guessing.
I think if you could track this the winning percentage of puppies born that are inbred it is probably lower than the percentage of outcross puppies that win. There are many more inbred puppies.
Keep in mind there are people who spend fortunes trying to breed winners and most do not make it.
Maybe we are wrong. They give away Bo puppies every day and he was bred with some of the best females in the country.
That is my point. It is all opinion and theory. Telling a beginner "That's not opinion it is fact" is just Plain BS.
I am done..........Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:24 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:CJ,

Rather than just stating your opinion, give us something we missed in Genetics 101. I haven't seen anything to prove or backup your posts.
Ezzy Did you not state your opinion or Ray. What backs up yours or Gube's? Your opinon and Ray's are of course more important than a dumb a$$.
Why do the inbred dogs get all good genes and no bad. There is nothing to prove any of these posts. it is all theory. I did not say it was wrong it is guessing.
I think if you could track this the winning percentage of puppies born that are inbred it is probably lower than the percentage of outcross puppies that win. There are many more inbred puppies.
Keep in mind there are people who spend fortunes trying to breed winners and most do not make it.
Maybe we are wrong. They give away Bo puppies every day and he was bred with some of the best females in the country.
That is my point. It is all opinion and theory. Telling a beginner "That's not opinion it is fact" is just Plain BS.
I am done..........Cj
CJ I have no idea where you get your info. Ray or myself did not state our opinion but rather what the basics of genetics has taught us for years and years. Quickly I might be able to help as it is well known inbreeding offers no new genes but rather strengthens what is already present. That is why it is important to start with something good with few weaknesses because they all will stronger when doubled up. Out crossing will produce little uniformity but you have the chance of producing an outstanding individual as well as some worthless individual. Usually the outstanding ones are sparse compared to the average and below. So short way to explain it is inbreeding produces nothing better than what you start with but will strength the characteristics and uniformity while outcrossing will produce an occasional great dog but many average and below with little uniformity. That's what we all have been taught over the years by reading Darwin and more recent scientist and also from our own experience that backs up the studies and results from hundred of years of study. If you need proof of what I am saying look it up on the net or go to the library like we use to. It is your call.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Steve007 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:55 pm

cjhills wrote: I am done..........Cj
Not likely. But you are revealed.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:40 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:CJ,

Rather than just stating your opinion, give us something we missed in Genetics 101. I haven't seen anything to prove or backup your posts.
Ezzy Did you not state your opinion or Ray. What backs up yours or Gube's? Your opinon and Ray's are of course more important than a dumb a$$.
Why do the inbred dogs get all good genes and no bad. There is nothing to prove any of these posts. it is all theory. I did not say it was wrong it is guessing.
I think if you could track this the winning percentage of puppies born that are inbred it is probably lower than the percentage of outcross puppies that win. There are many more inbred puppies.
Keep in mind there are people who spend fortunes trying to breed winners and most do not make it.
Maybe we are wrong. They give away Bo puppies every day and he was bred with some of the best females in the country.
That is my point. It is all opinion and theory. Telling a beginner "That's not opinion it is fact" is just Plain BS.
I am done..........Cj
CJ I have no idea where you get your info. Ray or myself did not state our opinion but rather what the basics of genetics has taught us for years and years. Quickly I might be able to help as it is well known inbreeding offers no new genes but rather strengthens what is already present. That is why it is important to start with something good with few weaknesses because they all will stronger when doubled up. Out crossing will produce little uniformity but you have the chance of producing an outstanding individual as well as some worthless individual. Usually the outstanding ones are sparse compared to the average and below. So short way to explain it is inbreeding produces nothing better than what you start with but will strength the characteristics and uniformity while outcrossing will produce an occasional great dog but many average and below with little uniformity. That's what we all have been taught over the years by reading Darwin and more recent scientist and also from our own experience that backs up the studies and results from hundred of years of study. If you need proof of what I am saying look it up on the net or go to the library like we use to. It is your call.
You believe what you want but the fact is you are wrong. You are stating your opinion with no facts to back you up It is your belief. Not everybody's. There are many good breeders who do not agree with you.
I got my information From several courses at the U of M. and the U of Wisc.
Do you deny that Wehle Killed off whole litters of puppies? Do you think he was not Knowlegable enough to pick good dogs? There is no way to know what genes a dog carries. Why do you assume you are going to get all good? What you say about outcrossing is the same thing that happens in inbreeding. Any breeding is a risk and you are not going to get all good pups. No two puppies in a litter have all the same genes. Why did Miller breed More litters in a year than most breed in a lifetime? Why did he only breed a few good dogs out of the huge numbers they bred? Why Can't People who spent fortunes on dog breeding and would spare no expense consistently breed champions? Why do very few dog produce better than they are? When Can we expect to See Ray On the steps?
I have dogs in my Kennel with 35 COI That have produced some very good dogs. But they also occasionally produce very bad dogs. You are not going to have it one way.
Incidentally, I believe it is called Darwin's theories. Not Darwins Facts
I also do not need you to explain it to me because I have had it explained by people who have masters in Genetics. Why would you want to breed nothing better than what you start with. I have never talk to a dog breeder who hope his litters stayed the same. Most like to think they are getting better. Of course they are not mods on Gun Dog Forums, So may be they don't know much.Thanks for your time. My apologies to the OP I won't do it again....................Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:28 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote: Ezzy Did you not state your opinion or Ray. What backs up yours or Gube's? Your opinon and Ray's are of course more important than a dumb a$$.
Why do the inbred dogs get all good genes and no bad. There is nothing to prove any of these posts. it is all theory. I did not say it was wrong it is guessing.
I think if you could track this the winning percentage of puppies born that are inbred it is probably lower than the percentage of outcross puppies that win. There are many more inbred puppies.
Keep in mind there are people who spend fortunes trying to breed winners and most do not make it.
Maybe we are wrong. They give away Bo puppies every day and he was bred with some of the best females in the country.
That is my point. It is all opinion and theory. Telling a beginner "That's not opinion it is fact" is just Plain BS.
I am done..........Cj
CJ I have no idea where you get your info. Ray or myself did not state our opinion but rather what the basics of genetics has taught us for years and years. Quickly I might be able to help as it is well known inbreeding offers no new genes but rather strengthens what is already present. That is why it is important to start with something good with few weaknesses because they all will stronger when doubled up. Out crossing will produce little uniformity but you have the chance of producing an outstanding individual as well as some worthless individual. Usually the outstanding ones are sparse compared to the average and below. So short way to explain it is inbreeding produces nothing better than what you start with but will strength the characteristics and uniformity while outcrossing will produce an occasional great dog but many average and below with little uniformity. That's what we all have been taught over the years by reading Darwin and more recent scientist and also from our own experience that backs up the studies and results from hundred of years of study. If you need proof of what I am saying look it up on the net or go to the library like we use to. It is your call.
You believe what you want but the fact is you are wrong. You are stating your opinion with no facts to back you up It is your belief. Not everybody's. There are many good breeders who do not agree with you.
I got my information From several courses at the U of M. and the U of Wisc.
Do you deny that Wehle Killed off whole litters of puppies? Do you think he was not Knowlegable enough to pick good dogs? There is no way to know what genes a dog carries. Why do you assume you are going to get all good? What you say about outcrossing is the same thing that happens in inbreeding. Any breeding is a risk and you are not going to get all good pups. No two puppies in a litter have all the same genes. Why did Miller breed More litters in a year than most breed in a lifetime? Why did he only breed a few good dogs out of the huge numbers they bred? Why Can't People who spent fortunes on dog breeding and would spare no expense consistently breed champions? Why do very few dog produce better than they are? When Can we expect to See Ray On the steps?
I have dogs in my Kennel with 35 COI That have produced some very good dogs. But they also occasionally produce very bad dogs. You are not going to have it one way.
Incidentally, I believe it is called Darwin's theories. Not Darwins Facts
I also do not need you to explain it to me because I have had it explained by people who have masters in Genetics. Why would you want to breed nothing better than what you start with. I have never talk to a dog breeder who hope his litters stayed the same. Most like to think they are getting better. Of course they are not mods on Gun Dog Forums, So may be they don't know much.Thanks for your time. My apologies to the OP I won't do it again....................Cj
Until you understand the goals of breeding there really is no way you would ever understand how breeders like Wehle get to their goal as breeders. There is no faster way to get rid of unwanted genes than inbreeding and culling. But he had a completely different goal than you do when you breed a litter. Wehle started with one of the great dogs in the Pointer breed so he didn't have to try and breed a better dog but he did work tirelessly to develop a line of dogs that would all breed true and produce a gentleman's hunting dog and not just an individual. And that same motivation was the goal of Miller as he tried to develop a line of great all age trial dogs. You never develop a line without doing some serious culling. Hope that answers your understanding of why those people bred a lot of dogs and culled heavily to attain their goals. As you can see different goals take different approaches to accomplish.

I really am at a lost as to why you don't understand genetics and don't realize that genetic opinions ended years ago and now it is just developing a program to get you to where you want to go. No one has ever told you that creating uniformity isn't a one time thing to accomplish complete uniformity but each generation gets you closer. The only example I know of where it has been done long enough that it produces young that 99% alike is with the white mice they breed for lab work and those are well past 100 generation with out any new blood brought in and the young are now very close to identical in evey way which really helps the Labs when doing nutritional tests as well as some other tests.

I am sure I have just wasted 15 minutes of my time but if you will just open your mind and accept someone else's knowledge and if it is different than you thought then get on the Net and verify it instead of just arguing that everyone else is wrong. There are hundreds of books written on the subject and they aren't hard to find.

Ezzy

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by AAA Gundogs » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:12 am

ezzy333 wrote: I really am at a lost as to why you don't understand genetics...
Ezzy
I wouldn't be accusing anyone of not understanding genetics. It's a pot meet kettle moment.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:41 am

AAA Gundogs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I really am at a lost as to why you don't understand genetics...
Ezzy
I wouldn't be accusing anyone of not understanding genetics. It's a pot meet kettle moment.
I have passed the courses on genetics. What say you?

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:23 am

Genetics is like the universe, always changing. Or at least our knowledge of it is. How many years has it been since the theories on the X factor and mitochondrial DNA came to knowledge. We are learning more about genetics every year. What you learned 20 years, 10 years, 5 years ago, has likely in some way changed through advances in research.

When it comes to breeding dogs though, it takes serious hands on experience over a long period of time. I learn something new on every litter and learn even more as that litter grows and develops. Some will say the latter is all environmental, but there are genetic implications to every aspect of a pups development, and what they will be as an adult. It takes the "right" environment to help a person select the dogs to breed on to. Genetics is a very complicated topic. There are correct comments from everyone that's posted on this thread.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by AAA Gundogs » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:05 am

ezzy333 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I really am at a lost as to why you don't understand genetics...
Ezzy
I wouldn't be accusing anyone of not understanding genetics. It's a pot meet kettle moment.
I have passed the courses on genetics. What say you?
I worked on the human genome project.

Again tell us how genes from the 5th generation are too diluted to be expressed especially if the 5th Gen is nothing but the same breeding pair or even just dogs from the same line?

I'll wait.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:27 am

AAA Gundogs wrote:I worked on the human genome project.Again tell us how genes from the 5th generation are too diluted to be expressed especially if the 5th Gen is nothing but the same breeding pair or even just dogs from the same line?I'll wait.
In the 5th generation of any breeding there are 8 pairs on the pedigree, are you suggesting all 8 of those pairs are identical?

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:08 am

I believe those who would profess that they can master genetics are plagued with a terrible social liability known in the science of psychological circles as an inferiority complex, and known to the rest of us just trying to enjoy the day, an activity, maybe a life ... as know-it-alls. I have studied enough of genetic science in breeding to confuse myself while trying to understand allele. chromosomes and their relation to traits, physical characteristics, including health and finally the finished competencies of a gun dog. I have come to the conclusion that a few things are pretty apparent to me ... most brains that truly have a grasp of the science do not possess the same passion or ability to recognize the best performance traits in a dog, there doesn't appear to be sufficient passion in mass to serve both. Math does indeed get quite diluted in 5 generations due to the wide diversity of breeding combinations within the hierarchy to say nothing of how allele, chromosomes, genes whatever... are recessive here and become dominant combined here, and the ever present possibility of mutation. Environmental conditions can and do complicate the measurement of characteristics for most.

The truly well traveled, objective dog handler within a given breed is my choice for breeding advice. Those who aren't afflicted with terminal kennel blindness can recognize when a given line is developing superior dogs within its own line and when said splicing starts to "jump the shark" so to speak. They also see enough outcrosses to have the best guess about strengthening a weakness. Some things are controllable and some simply are not. An affliction once reserved for the barstool has flourished on the internet. It appears this forum has a terminal case as people who could once discuss issues with an open mind and some self control have exited (showing good sense) and a few remaining that have credentials that might confirm they are in the know; have fallen prey to those that are here in the immortal words of Nuke Laloosh, he of course a fine young pitcher from the Durham Bulls, " to announce their presence with authority."

I love reading the skeletal resumes

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:25 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I believe those who would profess that they can master genetics are plagued with a terrible social liability known in the science of psychological circles as an inferiority complex, and known to the rest of us just trying to enjoy the day, an activity, maybe a life ... as know-it-alls. I have studied enough of genetic science in breeding to confuse myself while trying to understand allele. chromosomes and their relation to traits, physical characteristics, including health and finally the finished competencies of a gun dog. I have come to the conclusion that a few things are pretty apparent to me ... most brains that truly have a grasp of the science do not possess the same passion or ability to recognize the best performance traits in a dog, there doesn't appear to be sufficient passion in mass to serve both. Math does indeed get quite diluted in 5 generations due to the wide diversity of breeding combinations within the hierarchy to say nothing of how allele, chromosomes, genes whatever... are recessive here and become dominant combined here, and the ever present possibility of mutation. Environmental conditions can and do complicate the measurement of characteristics for most.

The truly well traveled, objective dog handler within a given breed is my choice for breeding advice. Those who aren't afflicted with terminal kennel blindness can recognize when a given line is developing superior dogs within its own line and when said splicing starts to "jump the shark" so to speak. They also see enough outcrosses to have the best guess about strengthening a weakness. Some things are controllable and some simply are not. An affliction once reserved for the barstool has flourished on the internet. It appears this forum has a terminal case as people who could once discuss issues with an open mind and some self control have exited (showing good sense) and a few remaining that have credentials that might confirm they are in the know; have fallen prey to those that are here in the immortal words of Nuke Laloosh, he of course a fine young pitcher from the Durham Bulls, " to announce their presence with authority."

I love reading the skeletal resumes
Very well said Joe. Nowadays it seems almost everyone wants to post, only to one up the next guy. I know because I've been guilty of it myself. Trying to come at it differently these days. Hope you and your well bred brittneys are ready for a new field trial season.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:27 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I believe those who would profess that they can master genetics are plagued with a terrible social liability known in the science of psychological circles as an inferiority complex, and known to the rest of us just trying to enjoy the day, an activity, maybe a life ... as know-it-alls. I have studied enough of genetic science in breeding to confuse myself while trying to understand allele. chromosomes and their relation to traits, physical characteristics, including health and finally the finished competencies of a gun dog. I have come to the conclusion that a few things are pretty apparent to me ... most brains that truly have a grasp of the science do not possess the same passion or ability to recognize the best performance traits in a dog, there doesn't appear to be sufficient passion in mass to serve both. Math does indeed get quite diluted in 5 generations due to the wide diversity of breeding combinations within the hierarchy to say nothing of how allele, chromosomes, genes whatever... are recessive here and become dominant combined here, and the ever present possibility of mutation. Environmental conditions can and do complicate the measurement of characteristics for most.

The truly well traveled, objective dog handler within a given breed is my choice for breeding advice. Those who aren't afflicted with terminal kennel blindness can recognize when a given line is developing superior dogs within its own line and when said splicing starts to "jump the shark" so to speak. They also see enough outcrosses to have the best guess about strengthening a weakness. Some things are controllable and some simply are not. An affliction once reserved for the barstool has flourished on the internet. It appears this forum has a terminal case as people who could once discuss issues with an open mind and some self control have exited (showing good sense) and a few remaining that have credentials that might confirm they are in the know; have fallen prey to those that are here in the immortal words of Nuke Laloosh, he of course a fine young pitcher from the Durham Bulls, " to announce their presence with authority."

I love reading the skeletal resumes
This is pretty much my point. There are No facts. When you think you know it all nature will teach you a lesson. The More you learn the more you find out you do not Know much. Darwin's theory of Evolution has pretty much been Debunked..........Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by fuzznut » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:09 pm

I have always thought that those who utilize line breeding have a direction, and a breeding program.
Those who only outcross are breeding dogs and hoping for the best.

The very best breeders utilize both line breeding with the judicious outcross here and there and know why they are doing it.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by AAA Gundogs » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:37 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:I worked on the human genome project.Again tell us how genes from the 5th generation are too diluted to be expressed especially if the 5th Gen is nothing but the same breeding pair or even just dogs from the same line?I'll wait.
In the 5th generation of any breeding there are 8 pairs on the pedigree, are you suggesting all 8 of those pairs are identical?
I merely suggested a very simplified hypothetical, to disprove his statement that any genes past the third generation are too diluted, that if the all of the pairs on the 5th generation were the same sire or dam... they'd represent 100% of the available gene pool for their offspring, grand offspring great grand offspring, great great grand offspring, etc.

Now if we expand that out to a more of a realistic situation, like being able to get top to bottom pedigree coverage by dogs from the same line breeding program, regardless of generation, it's still a silly assertion.

All the best.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:01 am

fuzznut wrote:I have always thought that those who utilize line breeding have a direction, and a breeding program.
Those who only outcross are breeding dogs and hoping for the best.

The very best breeders utilize both line breeding with the judicious outcross here and there and know why they are doing it.
I completely agree.

The only thing that is unsaid is that there is a second part to the breeding question. This part is, unfortunately, too often neglected.

The very best breeders evaluate the individual dog to whom the paper pedigree is attached and only if that individual dog is a clear example of what they are trying to breed to or breed for, does it get included in their program. The paper needs to be backed up by performance. The best breeders know to both read paper and read dogs.

Whele and Miller clearly understood that, which is why the dogs they produced continually met or exceeded their expectations. As has been said, they had different goals for their respective programs, but used similar methods to attain them.

Interestingly, both men understood very well that the paper pedigree for pointers was, especially in the case of all age performance dogs...very often inaccurate and undependable. The only thing that could be depended on was the performance record of the individual dog. Also interestingly, both men chose to control the pedigree inaccuracies by breeding their own dogs to their own dogs, having full control and full knowledge of the true parentage of the dogs they produced.

Clearly the DNA requirements have minimized current and future inaccuracies in pedigrees. In the OP's case, wirehair breeding is done by a very much smaller circle of folks, utilizing much smaller pool of performance dogs. The opportunities for "creative" pedigree manipulation are, I think, much less.

RayG

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:59 pm

Wehle and Miller clearly understood, that is why they produced many litters, Maybe some of the puppies exceeded their expectations, Probably not and some were were eliminated.
I never knew Miller, But, I had many conversations with Wehle. He was the breeder of my first and last pointer. One of the things he always told me was "if you are a serious breeder you will never breed a pup, that exceeds your expectations". He also told me, " you will never get rid of all the Genetic Issues and if you are lucky about one in four puppies will have problems".
If your puppies exceed your expectations you need to raise you expectations......Cj

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Steve007 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:35 pm

Steve007 wrote:
cjhills wrote: I am done..........Cj
Not likely. But you are revealed.
I thought you said you were done. Oh, well. Never expected that you were, anyway.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by polmaise » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:47 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I believe those who would profess that they can master genetics are plagued with a terrible social liability known in the science of psychological circles as an inferiority complex, and known to the rest of us just trying to enjoy the day, an activity, maybe a life ... as know-it-alls. I have studied enough of genetic science in breeding to confuse myself while trying to understand allele. chromosomes and their relation to traits, physical characteristics, including health and finally the finished competencies of a gun dog. I have come to the conclusion that a few things are pretty apparent to me ... most brains that truly have a grasp of the science do not possess the same passion or ability to recognize the best performance traits in a dog, there doesn't appear to be sufficient passion in mass to serve both. Math does indeed get quite diluted in 5 generations due to the wide diversity of breeding combinations within the hierarchy to say nothing of how allele, chromosomes, genes whatever... are recessive here and become dominant combined here, and the ever present possibility of mutation. Environmental conditions can and do complicate the measurement of characteristics for most.

The truly well traveled, objective dog handler within a given breed is my choice for breeding advice. Those who aren't afflicted with terminal kennel blindness can recognize when a given line is developing superior dogs within its own line and when said splicing starts to "jump the shark" so to speak. They also see enough outcrosses to have the best guess about strengthening a weakness. Some things are controllable and some simply are not. An affliction once reserved for the barstool has flourished on the internet. It appears this forum has a terminal case as people who could once discuss issues with an open mind and some self control have exited (showing good sense) and a few remaining that have credentials that might confirm they are in the know; have fallen prey to those that are here in the immortal words of Nuke Laloosh, he of course a fine young pitcher from the Durham Bulls, " to announce their presence with authority."

I love reading the skeletal resumes
I love this !.. :)

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:21 pm

cjhills wrote:Wehle and Miller clearly understood, that is why they produced many litters, Maybe some of the puppies exceeded their expectations, Probably not and some were were eliminated.
I never knew Miller, But, I had many conversations with Wehle. He was the breeder of my first and last pointer. One of the things he always told me was "if you are a serious breeder you will never breed a pup, that exceeds your expectations". He also told me, " you will never get rid of all the Genetic Issues and if you are lucky about one in four puppies will have problems".
If your puppies exceed your expectations you need to raise you expectations......Cj
I like Wehle's quote, but it doesn't refer to someone starting out. It is more for a breeder that has created several generations of his own line. I know he used the word "serious" but that doesn't mean someone starting out with a good goal is not serious;-) He never could shake the bad bites, at his own admittance. Maybe not as ruthless as some might think he was. It really comes down to the standard and goal of the breeder, and his/her ability to select future breeders. Like Ray said, the dogs must be tested in a way that goes along with each breeders program. You want gun dogs, shooting dogs, or horseback all age dogs, you better have a way to test the breeding prospects and select accordingly.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:11 am

SCT wrote:
cjhills wrote:Wehle and Miller clearly understood, that is why they produced many litters, Maybe some of the puppies exceeded their expectations, Probably not and some were were eliminated.
I never knew Miller, But, I had many conversations with Wehle. He was the breeder of my first and last pointer. One of the things he always told me was "if you are a serious breeder you will never breed a pup, that exceeds your expectations". He also told me, " you will never get rid of all the Genetic Issues and if you are lucky about one in four puppies will have problems".
If your puppies exceed your expectations you need to raise you expectations......Cj
I like Wehle's quote, but it doesn't refer to someone starting out. It is more for a breeder that has created several generations of his own line. I know he used the word "serious" but that doesn't mean someone starting out with a good goal is not serious;-) He never could shake the bad bites, at his own admittance. Maybe not as ruthless as some might think he was. It really comes down to the standard and goal of the breeder, and his/her ability to select future breeders. Like Ray said, the dogs must be tested in a way that goes along with each breeders program. You want gun dogs, shooting dogs, or horseback all age dogs, you better have a way to test the breeding prospects and select accordingly.

SCT -

One thing folks need to remember about Mr. Whele. He was, first and foremost, the consummate salesman. He designed a very successful marketing program for his dogs. His target audience was wealthy, upscale bird hunters. The sort of gent who went afield with a British double gun, Filson and/or Barbour clothing...or at least aspired to. He promoted his dogs as a "gentleman's hunting companion" and he charged a significant premium for his pups over what was being charged by the rest of the pointer world, to reinforce the buyer's conviction that by paying more... significantly more, for a puppy that was "personally selected for them" by Mr. Whele, they were assured of the highest quality. Similar to the marketing strategy employed by Smirnoff and BMW and Mercedes. It is called product differentiation by pricing.

He was wildly successful in his marketing effort. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but in business it is also the surest measure of success. Bunches of breeders, to this day, still advertise Elhew breeding in their kennels.

Did he produce the product (gentleman's shooting dog) that he claimed? Yes he did.

Was he dedicated to "improving the breed"? If you take the fact that his line was, and still is well known for having undershot bites. I would have to say he dropped the ball on that one. So much so that in his later years he started to downplay the genetic flaw. I am sure he could have eliminated the flaw from his line, but that would have taken some serious culling over two or three generations and would have had serious impact on sales.

Were his dogs THAT MUCH better than the rest of the pointers being bred? I can only answer for myself and my answer is that I lived relatively close to their NY kennel for most of my life, bird hunted multiple days per week during the season and not only did not ever buy an Elhew dog, I actively avoided the breeding because the ones I saw(and I saw a bunch) didn't have the guts I wanted in a bird dog. They broke easily and wanted to stay with you, but they were softer in temperament than I liked and many would avoid the tough cover. I wanted a hard charging dog with a burning, insatiable desire to find birds.

Still do.

RayG

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MNTonester
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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by MNTonester » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:38 am

This is all really interesting stuff. This is why I joined this forum and participate. I know I'm not the OP, but Thank you to all the respondents
What he said. A very interesting (and volatile) thread but I've learned a lot about breeding and genetics following this thread. Thanks
disclaimer: I've come across Ray's posts on other forums over the years (some now defunct) and have always enjoyed his insight and the time he's taken to respond to some of my past questions

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SCT
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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:19 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
SCT wrote:
cjhills wrote:Wehle and Miller clearly understood, that is why they produced many litters, Maybe some of the puppies exceeded their expectations, Probably not and some were were eliminated.
I never knew Miller, But, I had many conversations with Wehle. He was the breeder of my first and last pointer. One of the things he always told me was "if you are a serious breeder you will never breed a pup, that exceeds your expectations". He also told me, " you will never get rid of all the Genetic Issues and if you are lucky about one in four puppies will have problems".
If your puppies exceed your expectations you need to raise you expectations......Cj
I like Wehle's quote, but it doesn't refer to someone starting out. It is more for a breeder that has created several generations of his own line. I know he used the word "serious" but that doesn't mean someone starting out with a good goal is not serious;-) He never could shake the bad bites, at his own admittance. Maybe not as ruthless as some might think he was. It really comes down to the standard and goal of the breeder, and his/her ability to select future breeders. Like Ray said, the dogs must be tested in a way that goes along with each breeders program. You want gun dogs, shooting dogs, or horseback all age dogs, you better have a way to test the breeding prospects and select accordingly.

SCT -

One thing folks need to remember about Mr. Whele. He was, first and foremost, the consummate salesman. He designed a very successful marketing program for his dogs. His target audience was wealthy, upscale bird hunters. The sort of gent who went afield with a British double gun, Filson and/or Barbour clothing...or at least aspired to. He promoted his dogs as a "gentleman's hunting companion" and he charged a significant premium for his pups over what was being charged by the rest of the pointer world, to reinforce the buyer's conviction that by paying more... significantly more, for a puppy that was "personally selected for them" by Mr. Whele, they were assured of the highest quality. Similar to the marketing strategy employed by Smirnoff and BMW and Mercedes. It is called product differentiation by pricing.

He was wildly successful in his marketing effort. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but in business it is also the surest measure of success. Bunches of breeders, to this day, still advertise Elhew breeding in their kennels.

Did he produce the product (gentleman's shooting dog) that he claimed? Yes he did.

Was he dedicated to "improving the breed"? If you take the fact that his line was, and still is well known for having undershot bites. I would have to say he dropped the ball on that one. So much so that in his later years he started to downplay the genetic flaw. I am sure he could have eliminated the flaw from his line, but that would have taken some serious culling over two or three generations and would have had serious impact on sales.

Were his dogs THAT MUCH better than the rest of the pointers being bred? I can only answer for myself and my answer is that I lived relatively close to their NY kennel for most of my life, bird hunted multiple days per week during the season and not only did not ever buy an Elhew dog, I actively avoided the breeding because the ones I saw(and I saw a bunch) didn't have the guts I wanted in a bird dog. They broke easily and wanted to stay with you, but they were softer in temperament than I liked and many would avoid the tough cover. I wanted a hard charging dog with a burning, insatiable desire to find birds.

Still do.

RayG
I agree with your whole assessment. I owned a couple Elhew bred dogs (one a grandson of the famous Snakefoot), in the early 90's and did not own either of them for very long, for different reasons. Even sent one to summer camp with Ray Warren, ended up giving him away for free. Couldn't wait to get him out of my possession. Back then I didn't even understand their "guts" issue. But, for me, that has all changed as well as the line and type of dogs I prefer.

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:54 pm

MNTonester wrote:
This is all really interesting stuff. This is why I joined this forum and participate. I know I'm not the OP, but Thank you to all the respondents
What he said. A very interesting (and volatile) thread but I've learned a lot about breeding and genetics following this thread. Thanks
disclaimer: I've come across Ray's posts on other forums over the years (some now defunct) and have always enjoyed his insight and the time he's taken to respond to some of my past questions
So true. This has in particular , been a great thread for learning about breeding - unless you think you already know it all of course. :)

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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by SCT » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:09 pm

Well, I definitely don't know it all, not even 1% of genetics. But I can't say I've learned anything on this thread. Just fun to read people's comments and experiences. What I know, I've learned through research and raising puppies.
Last edited by SCT on Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cjhills
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Re: My dog result of inbreeding

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:21 pm

I will bite.
we really did not learn much. I still think there are very few facts in dog breeding and a lot of opinion. We still do not know a lot. Which was my point from the start. Darwins Theory of Evolution is Pretty much wrong.
I will say it was interesting a I always enjoy other folks point of view. Not to sure I liked being called the names I was but maybe some people need that.
This is a very interesting subject to me. I have spent a lot of time on it. I never was one to believe what somebody tells me because they said so.
Now, If we would discuss how they put the Grit and retrieve into the EP that would be interesting. It was not by inbreeding. Well second or third generation maybe. Good thing there was not DNA testing in those Days.
On more word to the Op, did you ever see this coming.......Cj

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