Gun Dog Forum

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:59 am**

Hi Folks, quick question, Our 6 month old female Brittany/springer cross is doing great! took her on her first hunt yesterday hoping to find some grouse (hard to find domestic birds up here) anyways she is far from perfect but I am really liking what I see. My wife and I are wanting to get her spayed. The lady we bought her from said that spayed dogs won't hunt (she also told us lots of other opinions that have not been true) Can anybody weigh in on this? We don't want heats or pups, but I would hate for her to loose her drive! She loves birds and guns!

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:13 am**

I have two female Golden Retrievers. They have been thoroughly Trained by myself and the Pro I use. Both of our dogs were spayed after their second heat. When to get a dog spade is another area you will get 1,000 opinions on, so no use to go there on this thread.

Both my girls are well trained to flush birds and have very good noses. Following being spayed, I saw no difference in their ability or desire to hunt upland birds. On waterfowl I also saw no change what so ever! That my friend is just not true, a spade dog will HUNT!

Of course, without being spade, your dog sooner or later will go into heat on opening day, now that is a reason to get them spade!

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:31 am**

Not true. I have a friend with a FC Brittany who is spayed and every one of his spayed Britts over the last 45 years were great hunters. They Hunt with their nose not their vigina.

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:40 am**

https://vimeo.com/183997292
16 month female GSP spayed at 10 months. She will hunt just fine. I wanted to keep her intact, but she was having UTI infections non-stop. Spraying her solved the problem for her and don't have to worry about going into "season" in season!

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Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:45 am**

Thanks so much everybody! This is very good news!

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:47 am**

Our Vet, who has been really good to us says he likes to spay at the six month mark. He admitted that everyone has a different philosophy with regards to timing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:51 am**

It is reasonable to let her go through one heat cycle (depending on the individual, perhaps 9- 12 months). It's not a big problem (don't let her loose, though) ,and there are doggie britches, but you can put her in a kennel if you wish. Then you'll have six months to get her spayed.

Dogs are of course not people, but there is a mental maturation process that goes with a season (or it could be just age). Further, you'll have less chance of urinary incontinence as she ages if she's spayed later.

Will not affect her hunting.

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:56 am**

You basically eliminate mammary cancer if you spay before the first heat cycle. In a Brittany probably around 9 0r 10 months. There is no credible research to prove any health issues from neutering a female at 8 months...................Cj

Posted: **Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:24 am**

It is well documented that no dog should be altered till it is physically mature. You do reduce the chance of some problems but you greatly increase the chances of others. AA dogs normal growth is very dependent on hormones produced by the sex glands. By the way sexual and physical maturity is not till they are near two years minimum. Please wait and save yourself and your dog the risk of some serious problems.

Ezzy

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:31 pm**

Our Welsh Springer hunted just fine after her spay. There wasn't any difference.

She was fed to keep her weight at an acceptable level. Occasionally you see a spayed bitch that gets fat, but dogs don't have their own credit cards, email accounts, and cars, so the only way a dog can get too much food, is if the owner is handing it out. Unspayed bitches can get too fat, too, if they are overfed.

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:55 pm**

ezzy333 wrote:It is well documented that no dog should be altered till it is physically mature. You do reduce the chance of some problems but you greatly increase the chances of others. AA dogs normal growth is very dependent on hormones produced by the sex glands. By the way sexual and physical maturity is not till they are near two years minimum. Please wait and save yourself and your dog the risk of some serious problems.

Ezzy

Not really well documented at All. If you wait until Two years old your bitch will likely have three heat period which will greatly increase the chance of Mammary cancer. Also never seen incontinence be more likely when spayed younger. Maybe the opposite......................CJ

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:53 pm**

Yes, spaying before first heat will reduce chance of mammary cancer by something like 97 Percent. But what is the incidence of mammary cancer anyway? If its 20 percent then that's a pretty good reduction. But if it's 1 or 2 percent then to spay for that reason isn't worth it in my opinion. There are pretty decent studies out that suggest early spaying may contribute to certain cancers. I also think it's ironic that for humans there ads all over the radio touting the health benefits (increased energy, weight loss, vitality, faster healing, etc) of hormone supplementation for both sexes, but we are in such a hurry to take those hormones away from our dogs.

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:50 pm**

cjhills wrote:Not really well documented at All.

Actually, very well documented. The literature correlating early spay/neuter with orthopedic problems goes back over 20 years. There are numerous studies on this and the problems associated with early spay/neuter have been identified and the risks quantified. Most recently, some people working at the vet school at UC Davis have published a series of papers following up on this, using a large database of dogs' health records. They found a threefold increased risk of joint problems in GSDs, and a fourfold increase in Goldens. Also, researchers have found significantly increased risks of certain cancers, i.e. hemangiosarcoma and lymphosarcoma.

While proponents of early spay/neuter have countered that the incidence of CCL ruptures and hip dysplasia are low and therefore the increased risk is of little significance, this ignores the reality that canine athletes are at significantly higher risk of joint injuries (specifically CCL injuries) by virtue of their work. Owners of hunting dogs ought therefore to take the increased risk of CCL injury associated with early spay/neuter seriously.

dog dr wrote:But what is the incidence of mammary cancer anyway? If its 20 percent then that's a pretty good reduction. But if it's 1 or 2 percent then to spay for that reason isn't worth it in my opinion.

You'd be much better qualified to answer your question than I, but as I understand it, mammary cancers are among the most common of cancers in dogs.

I know the ASPCA says that mammary tumors appear in 25% of intact females ... what they don't say is what proportion of said tumors are malignant.

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:53 pm**

dog dr wrote:Yes, spaying before first heat will reduce chance of mammary cancer by something like 97 Percent. But what is the incidence of mammary cancer anyway? If its 20 percent then that's a pretty good reduction. But if it's 1 or 2 percent then to spay for that reason isn't worth it in my opinion. There are pretty decent studies out that suggest early spaying may contribute to certain cancers. I also think it's ironic that for humans there ads all over the radio touting the health benefits (increased energy, weight loss, vitality, faster healing, etc) of hormone supplementation for both sexes, but we are in such a hurry to take those hormones away from our dogs.

There is just no reason to ever spay or neuter a healthy dog other than owners convenience. Out of all of the dogs we have had over the years plus the ones we boarded I never spayed but one female because of an infection and I never had but one that had cancer and she went through a false pg every heat period and should have been spayed. She died at 11 with cancer. I have not kept track of numbers but it would be a fairly high percentage of early spayed females ending up with ACL tears that seem to happen because of the longer legs that have a difference angle of angulation that may be the real cause. Just way to many to be happen stance. A severe and expensive problem that almost always happens twice.

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:58 pm**

welsh wrote:
cjhills wrote:Not really well documented at All.
Actually, very well documented. The literature correlating early spay/neuter with orthopedic problems goes back over 20 years. There are numerous studies on this and the problems associated with early spay/neuter have been identified and the risks quantified. Most recently, some people working at the vet school at UC Davis have published a series of papers following up on this, using a large database of dogs' health records. They found a threefold increased risk of joint problems in GSDs, and a fourfold increase in Goldens. Also, researchers have found significantly increased risks of certain cancers, i.e. hemangiosarcoma and lymphosarcoma.

While proponents of early spay/neuter have countered that the incidence of CCL ruptures and hip dysplasia are low and therefore the increased risk is of little significance, this ignores the reality that canine athletes are at significantly higher risk of joint injuries (specifically CCL injuries) by virtue of their work. Owners of hunting dogs ought therefore to take the increased risk of CCL injury associated with early spay/neuter seriously.

dog dr wrote:But what is the incidence of mammary cancer anyway? If its 20 percent then that's a pretty good reduction. But if it's 1 or 2 percent then to spay for that reason isn't worth it in my opinion.

You'd be much better qualified to answer your question than I, but as I understand it, mammary cancers are among the most common of cancers in dogs.

I know the ASPCA says that mammary tumors appear in 25% of intact females ... what they don't say is what proportion of said tumors are malignant.

Thank you Welsh, I wasn't going to go to the trouble of looking it up for CJ. If I said a Black Lab was black he would argue it.

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:05 pm**

ezzy333 wrote:
dog dr wrote:Yes, spaying before first heat will reduce chance of mammary cancer by something like 97 Percent. But what is the incidence of mammary cancer anyway? If its 20 percent then that's a pretty good reduction. But if it's 1 or 2 percent then to spay for that reason isn't worth it in my opinion. There are pretty decent studies out that suggest early spaying may contribute to certain cancers. I also think it's ironic that for humans there ads all over the radio touting the health benefits (increased energy, weight loss, vitality, faster healing, etc) of hormone supplementation for both sexes, but we are in such a hurry to take those hormones away from our dogs.
There is just no reason to ever spay or neuter a healthy dog other than owners convenience. Out of all of the dogs we have had over the years plus the ones we boarded I never spayed but one female because of an infection and I never had but one that had cancer and she went through a false pg every heat period and should have been spayed. She died at 11 with cancer. I have not kept track of numbers but it would be a fairly high percentage of early spayed females ending up with ACL tears that seem to happen because of the longer legs that have a difference angle of angulation that may be the real cause. Just way to many to be happen stance. A severe and expensive problem that almost always happens twice.

Interesting . Not knowing any better, years ago I had a female spayed at 6 months.... ended up needing 2 ALC surgeries and is now incontinent at 11.( The dog not me.) Not a scientific study

but interesting to me.

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:35 pm**

Sharon wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
dog dr wrote:Yes, spaying before first heat will reduce chance of mammary cancer by something like 97 Percent. But what is the incidence of mammary cancer anyway? If its 20 percent then that's a pretty good reduction. But if it's 1 or 2 percent then to spay for that reason isn't worth it in my opinion. There are pretty decent studies out that suggest early spaying may contribute to certain cancers. I also think it's ironic that for humans there ads all over the radio touting the health benefits (increased energy, weight loss, vitality, faster healing, etc) of hormone supplementation for both sexes, but we are in such a hurry to take those hormones away from our dogs.
There is just no reason to ever spay or neuter a healthy dog other than owners convenience. Out of all of the dogs we have had over the years plus the ones we boarded I never spayed but one female because of an infection and I never had but one that had cancer and she went through a false pg every heat period and should have been spayed. She died at 11 with cancer. I have not kept track of numbers but it would be a fairly high percentage of early spayed females ending up with ACL tears that seem to happen because of the longer legs that have a difference angle of angulation that may be the real cause. Just way to many to be happen stance. A severe and expensive problem that almost always happens twice.

Interesting . Not knowing an better years ago I had a female spayed at 6 months.... ended up needing 2 ALC surgeries and is now incontinent at 11. Not a scientific study but interesting to me.

Well, that is proof enough. I am sure none of that would have happened if she was intact. I had a female spayed at six months she also had incontinence at 17 years old Never had any other health issues in her long healthy life.
Pyometra (uterine infection) is the most common life threatening disease my vets treat in female dogs. False pregnancies are very common among intact females that are not bred and lead to almost certain malignant tumors....CJ

Posted: **Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:38 pm**

To the OP, no! she will not lose her drive. I have two spayed females who have a lot of drive. As to the timing, do your own research, make a decision, and know that it's final.

To anyone else, there's never a perfect solution. To spay or not to? Unwanted pups or no? Heat cycles or no? Whether that's convenience or trying to be responsible, that's up to you to decide. Also, keep in mind that correlation does not equal causation. There are too many extenuating circumstances.

Posted: **Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:56 pm**

i had my current dog spayed at 6 month which was advised by my vet. She has huge drive and run.

Posted: **Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:16 am**

Thanks everyone! she is very exited about hunting. It's great to know that she won't loose that!

Posted: **Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:35 pm**

Choosing when/if to spay is all about mitigating risk:

Risk of unwanted pregnancy
Risk of malignant mammary tumors
Risk of CCL rupture or musculoskeletal issues
Risk of certain tumors in certain breeds
Risk of middle-age urinary incontinence
Risk of pyometra
Risk of bloody vaginal discharge staining the new carpet

There is no right way or right time that fits every scenario; you have to decide which of the above are acceptable risks and which are non-negotiable in your situation.

My own sweet spot for large breed athletes is to reach sexual and physical maturity then spay those bitches not intended for breeding. But that's what works for me.

There is no substantiated physiological evidence for alteration having any effect on hunting drive.

Posted: **Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:09 am**

Doc, I sure wish I could find a local vet with that attitude. What I have gotten is the full court press to snip my dogs bits, with zero discussion of risks. After my last dog died of hemangiosarcoma and I started reading about it (its a death sentence and many times more common in spayed females), and that lead to reading about vaccinations (every vaccine on the market is proven effective for 3 years minimum per head of immunology at Univ of Wis). Where I ended up is with no trust in my vet. Its a place to take my dog for acute injury or illness, not a partner in maintaining my dogs health.

Posted: **Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:25 am**

It's hard to get those risks quantified. As I remarked earlier, the ASPCA lectures us that 1 in 4 females will develop a mammary tumour, but they neglect to tell us what proportion of those tumours are malignant ... the ASPCA does make a point of telling us that CCL ruptures occur at a very low rate, and goes on to insist that the evidence that early spay/neuter increases this risk is weak and that more research is required. That's flat out dishonest. The problem with spay/neuter is too many people with axes to grind.

I have seen one study that associates spay/neuter with behavioural issues such as noise sensitivity and separation anxiety but I'm not sure this much matters. "Noise sensitive" andd gun shy are not the same thing ... I have a noise-sensitive dog who won't go in the yard for a full day after fireworks, and freezes up at the sound of a kid's cap gun, but she loves primer pistols and shotguns thanks to early exposure and positive associations.

In any case, my spayed female hunts just fine. Also, I know a neutered male with FC/AFC titles....

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