Rock Acre Blackhawk????

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Moonshine Ike
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Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Moonshine Ike » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:55 pm

I have a 4 year old double grandaughter to Blackhawk. Heck of a nice bird dog but sickle tailed. Many who have hunted with her proclaim she is one of the very best they've seen.

I've never bred her, because of that sickle tail, though have had many requests for pups. A few pointer experts have told me that while the original Blackhawk was a tremendous reproducer, he did throw sickle tails on occasion. The experts also said that if I avoided certain lines and pick the sire with care, the pups probably wouldn't have sickle tails

What is ya'alls opinion on breeding this female? She smokes the birds and very few dogs can beat her to the point. How heriditary is this sickle tail?

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by AAA Gundogs » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:33 pm

If you're trying to breed trial dogs at the highest level, unless the bitch is fantastic, it's pretty much a disqualifier unless you know both lines very well.

However, if you're breeding meat dogs, I'd be more concerned about confirmation, gait, nose, drive, etc and then picking a complimentary line sire with a great tail.

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bonasa
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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by bonasa » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:05 am

If you can find homes for all the pups, go for it.

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greg jacobs
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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by greg jacobs » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:37 am

If it's because you want a pup go buy a pup. Always a lot of well thought out great litters available every year.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by rinker » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:06 am

I would like to see a picture, how bad is it?

If your trying to breed trial dogs at the highest level, They can get the tail fixed.

If it isn't extreme and the dog has no other significant flaws, I would breed her. I would breed to a sire with a good tail, and when the puppies are born, I would probably bob just a little bit off of the end.

I actually like a dog with a little bit of a sickle tail. It seems that they typically carry their tails higher when running. The tail also tends to come back when the dog gets tired. I dog with a perfectly straight tail will often have a 10:00 tail after 90 minutes or so on the ground. A dog with somewhat of a sickle tail will often have a 12:00 tail after 90 minutes or so on the ground.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:34 am

IMO...there are so many very good litters being produced at the highest levels, I would not breed her. Count your blessings as a tremendous brag dog. Look back at her lines and go buy something similar. I would not take a chance on reproducing that trait (or even some shaggy hair ;))

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:08 pm

It seems to me the tail is on the other end of what determines how good a dog is. We hear how bad it is to pick a dog because of color or maybe we should say cosmetic reasons but those same people often forget that the tail carriage and style is cosmetic. I like the 10 o'clock slightly sickle tail, especialy on a setter.

Ezzy

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by codym » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:46 pm

I kind of disagree with some of the opinions here. Like Rinker how bad is the tail? Blackhawk did produce some terrible tails but that was un-common from what I have seen. The tails I saw pulled way over the top of the back. People make way to big of deal about the tail, if you look at aa and sd ch's out there, they don't all have poker straight 12 o'clock tails. If the dog is the real deal, has good confirmation, good personality, and is as good a bird finder as you say I would breed her (assuming the tail is just awful) I would maybe pick a stud with a tail thats a bit lower or straighter. I think people maybe surprised how many ch's on the major circuit have had tail work done and that doesn't stop the owners and handlers from breeding them because they are exceptional in every other way. An exceptional bitch is harder to come by than an exceptional stud dog in my opinion. I love RAB dogs by the way, hopefully have a litter by him this spring.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:10 pm

If your counting on a tail winning a trial, you will be severely disappointed.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by SCT » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:11 pm

IMO breeding is about matching the best to the best available. Matching, meaning putting a dog with all the right stuff, but a sickle tail to a bitch with all the right stuff, with a straight tail as an example. There is no such thing as a perfect specimen. All dogs have flaws. Their brains, nose, drive, etc are the important part. I personally believe the tail is the least important part of a good bird dog. Having said that, I hate a bad sickle tail. If she is as good a bird dog as you (and others) say she is then I would breed her and match her up with a stud like this: Image

Some of the pups are going to have a sickle tail because, YES, it is hereditary. But, if they make better than average bird dogs, I for one can get past it. The dog in the photo's parents also have straight tails which makes it even a better match. His mother is in my avatar. Let's see a photo of her at her worst;-)

Steve

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Vision » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:06 pm

Moonshine Ike wrote:I have a 4 year old double grandaughter to Blackhawk. Heck of a nice bird dog but sickle tailed. Many who have hunted with her proclaim she is one of the very best they've seen.

I've never bred her, because of that sickle tail, though have had many requests for pups. A few pointer experts have told me that while the original Blackhawk was a tremendous reproducer, he did throw sickle tails on occasion. The experts also said that if I avoided certain lines and pick the sire with care, the pups probably wouldn't have sickle tails

What is ya'alls opinion on breeding this female? She smokes the birds and very few dogs can beat her to the point. How heriditary is this sickle tail?

I'm going to have to see her in action to give you any advice. What's your address and I will be there the first week of December it may take me a few days to reach a conclusion but I'm sure you won't mind showing her on game will you? :D

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:25 pm

Ike -

If you are thinking of breeding the dog, don't ask us. Pick a sire, make the arrangements, advertise and see how many deposit checks you get. The price of pups is usually somewhere around the price of the stud fee.

When someone puts $100 down on a prospective breeding, that tells you what you need to know. If nobody ponies up any money in advance, that speaks pretty clearly as well.

As others have said, there are plenty of well bred pointers out there and plenty of well thought out litters. Breeding pointers is generally NOT a particularly good way to make money, if that is where you are going with this.

RayG

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Moonshine Ike » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:00 pm

ezzy333 wrote:It seems to me the tail is on the other end of what determines how good a dog is. We hear how bad it is to pick a dog because of color or maybe we should say cosmetic reasons but those same people often forget that the tail carriage and style is cosmetic. I like the 10 o'clock slightly sickle tail, especialy on a setter.

Ezzy
I'm with you 100%. Too many internet dog experts must be afraid of the end product...........a dog pointing a wild bird. Their ideal pooch probably has a 12 o'clock poker tail but couldn't find a bird if it's life depended on it.....well.........because most people post about hunting dogs........but don't hunt
Wild birds is where it's at, fellas. Don't like it? Find new hobby

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:01 pm

Moonshine Ike wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:It seems to me the tail is on the other end of what determines how good a dog is. We hear how bad it is to pick a dog because of color or maybe we should say cosmetic reasons but those same people often forget that the tail carriage and style is cosmetic. I like the 10 o'clock slightly sickle tail, especialy on a setter.

Ezzy
I'm with you 100%. Too many internet dog experts must be afraid of the end product...........a dog pointing a wild bird. Their ideal pooch probably has a 12 o'clock poker tail but couldn't find a bird if it's life depended on it.....well.........because most people post about hunting dogs........but don't hunt
Wild birds is where it's at, fellas. Don't like it? Find new hobby

Too funny -

Ike joined us Aug. 20, 2016. In the space of three months he has become a resident authority. That is just awesome. :lol: :lol:

Ike - FWIW, there are plenty of very nice bird dogs, but NONE are PERFECT. There ain't a dog out there that does not have a hole...somewhere. There ain't a strain of dogs that does not pass along some undesirable traits ... Blackhawk included.

And also, FWIW... I know you won't believe this...but... wild birds in wide open country are usually pretty easy, especially when bird populations are good. Most half decent bird dogs can do a creditable job of filling the wild bird hunter's game bag.

There are MANY scenarios that test the ability of a bird dog. The prairies are one of them, but there are others. Dogs that excel in wide open spaces may or may not perform adequately in other terrain or in other circumstances.

In my experience, dogs that have only been exposed to wild birds, often do not do so well on stocked birds, while dogs that have been exposed to stocked birds generally adjust fairly well to wild birds. The best of bird dogs needs to be able to do both with style and class. The best of bird dogs needs to adjust to the terrain, to suck it in when the cover gets heavy and stretch it out when the cover gets thin and adjust to the game, because the same tactic that will freeze a pheasant in short grass or cut down corn will likely fail miserably on ruffed grouse in successional growth hardwood forest.

Enjoy your sport.

RayG

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by cjhills » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:14 am

Ike: Don't upset the resident expert, he will call you a arrogant bunghole. The longer you are on here the smarter you get.
I am amazed to learn that they surgically doctor trial dog's tails. Seems a bit dishonest when the doctored dog is passing on his bad genetics.
Also, never seen a good wild bird dog that could not handle stocked birds and most dogs ( maybe all except idiots) will shorten up in heavy cover.................Cj

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by JONOV » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:09 am

cjhills wrote:Ike: Don't upset the resident expert, he will call you a arrogant bunghole. The longer you are on here the smarter you get.
I am amazed to learn that they surgically doctor trial dog's tails. Seems a bit dishonest when the doctored dog is passing on his bad genetics.
It isn't like its the Prize winning Shihtzu that had its nostrils surgically repaired so it could breath, going on to win at the AKC. Its a minor cosmetic point.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by cjhills » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:17 am

If this is true why would anyone question breeding a dog with a sickle tail..........................Cj

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Moonshine Ike » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:57 am

Postby RayGubernat » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:01 pm
Too funny -

Ike joined us Aug. 20, 2016. In the space of three months he has become a resident authority. That is just awesome. :lol: :lol: I'LL DEFER TO YOUR EXPERTISE WITH 3,051 (plus probably 1,000's more @ other sites) INTERNET POSTS LOL


I know you won't believe this...but... wild birds in wide open country are usually pretty easy, especially when bird populations are good. YA GOT THAT RIGHT, I DON'T BELIEVE YOU


There are MANY scenarios that test the ability of a bird dog. The prairies are one of them, but there are others. Dogs that excel in wide open spaces may or may not perform adequately in other terrain or in other circumstances. 'BOUT THE ONLY SANE THING YOU SAID


In my experience, dogs that have only been exposed to wild birds, often do not do so well on stocked birds, while dogs that have been exposed to stocked birds generally adjust fairly well to wild birds. AS A 119% WILD BIRD HUNTER, THIS ONE MADE ME SPIT OUT MY DOUBLE LATTE' SPIKED WITH MADAGASCAR CINNAMON! I "bleep" NEAR SHARTED, TOO :)

ANY OTHER GEMS OF WISDOM?

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:39 pm

Moonshine Ike wrote:Postby RayGubernat » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:01 pm
Too funny -

Ike joined us Aug. 20, 2016. In the space of three months he has become a resident authority. That is just awesome. :lol: :lol: I'LL DEFER TO YOUR EXPERTISE WITH 3,051 (plus probably 1,000's more @ other sites) INTERNET POSTS LOL


I know you won't believe this...but... wild birds in wide open country are usually pretty easy, especially when bird populations are good. YA GOT THAT RIGHT, I DON'T BELIEVE YOU


There are MANY scenarios that test the ability of a bird dog. The prairies are one of them, but there are others. Dogs that excel in wide open spaces may or may not perform adequately in other terrain or in other circumstances. 'BOUT THE ONLY SANE THING YOU SAID


In my experience, dogs that have only been exposed to wild birds, often do not do so well on stocked birds, while dogs that have been exposed to stocked birds generally adjust fairly well to wild birds. AS A 119% WILD BIRD HUNTER, THIS ONE MADE ME SPIT OUT MY DOUBLE LATTE' SPIKED WITH MADAGASCAR CINNAMON! I "bleep" NEAR SHARTED, TOO :)

ANY OTHER GEMS OF WISDOM?

No. Certainly not to someone who knows it all already.

As I said...enjoy your sport.

RayG

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by QuillGordon » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Moon's yer a road Hunter. Mind you a good one at that. However, most bird hunters & experts alike require a hunt farther than a 100 yds from the road. This requires hounds on the ground and boot leather wear from miles of walking or hiking not spotting them from behind the steering wheel...

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:45 pm

JONOV wrote:
cjhills wrote:Ike: Don't upset the resident expert, he will call you a arrogant bunghole. The longer you are on here the smarter you get.
I am amazed to learn that they surgically doctor trial dog's tails. Seems a bit dishonest when the doctored dog is passing on his bad genetics.
It isn't like its the Prize winning Shihtzu that had its nostrils surgically repaired so it could breath, going on to win at the AKC. Its a minor cosmetic point.
Yes it is cosmetic, but yes it is(IMO) dishonest to "fix" a tail so the dog can be competitive in trials. It is a hereditary trait and surgically correcting it in potential breeding stock...is not bettering the breed.

BTW, surgically straightening dog's tails has been going on for a very long time. Since the seventies, that I am aware of, and probably before that. If a dog's tail was injured, I have no problem with a surgical repair, but if it was born with a bad tail, that is another matter, to me.

RayG

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:34 pm

Moonshine Ike -

I probably am wasting my time and bandwidth, but, what the heck....

You took issue with my observation regarding wild versus planted birds. The excerpt is below:

"In my experience, dogs that have only been exposed to wild birds, often do not do so well on stocked birds, while dogs that have been exposed to stocked birds generally adjust fairly well to wild birds. AS A 119% WILD BIRD HUNTER, THIS ONE MADE ME SPIT OUT MY DOUBLE LATTE' SPIKED WITH MADAGASCAR CINNAMON! I "bleep" NEAR SHARTED, TOO :)"

I would encourage you, in the interest of furthering your education in bird dogs, to search and view the websites of professional field trial handlers, both all age and shooting dog and look at the pedigrees of the dogs in their strings.

You will find that the all age handlers have competitive dogs that are heavily weighted towards Miller breeding. There are several other sire lines represented, including Blackhawk and Erin's, but there is a lot of Miller breeding out there, especially on the prairies.

If you then go to the shooting dog pros, you will find a very different mix of lineage. For example, if you go to Summerhill kennels, you will find VERY LITTLE Miller breeding. The only dog they handled, with a significant amount of Miller blood was Nat'l Ch. Talisman, who has been gone awhile now. And in case you did not know, Summerhill Kennels is home to two of the most successful shooting dog field trial handlers in the business. They run what wins in their venue.

All age dogs generally run on the more expansive venues, such as the prairies and the deep South. They also tend to be the one which work wild or pre-released birds more(grouse dogs excepted). Shooting dogs tend to be run much more frequently on smaller, tighter grounds and MUCH more on planted birds.

Pros get paid to win. They tend to run the kind of dogs that will win in their choice of venues...or they go out of business. You need to think about that when you look at the dogs they have in their strings.

There are reasons why Miller bred dogs are likely the pro's choice, for All Age wild bird venues and other strains, such as Calico are more likely the pro's choice for the often tighter planted bird venues. I am sure that hunting in Montana, No. and So. Dakota, Wyoming and Kansas is amazing...but there are other parts of the country where folks do actually run their hounds.

Just wanted to encourage you to think outside the box a bit.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by JONOV » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:31 am

RayGubernat wrote:
JONOV wrote:
cjhills wrote:Ike: Don't upset the resident expert, he will call you a arrogant bunghole. The longer you are on here the smarter you get.
I am amazed to learn that they surgically doctor trial dog's tails. Seems a bit dishonest when the doctored dog is passing on his bad genetics.
It isn't like its the Prize winning Shihtzu that had its nostrils surgically repaired so it could breath, going on to win at the AKC. Its a minor cosmetic point.
Yes it is cosmetic, but yes it is(IMO) dishonest to "fix" a tail so the dog can be competitive in trials. It is a hereditary trait and surgically correcting it in potential breeding stock...is not bettering the breed.

BTW, surgically straightening dog's tails has been going on for a very long time. Since the seventies, that I am aware of, and probably before that. If a dog's tail was injured, I have no problem with a surgical repair, but if it was born with a bad tail, that is another matter, to me.

RayG
I get what you're saying. I'll be honest, I don't have much knowledge of the FT world, but let me ask; what are the chances the tail even comes into play?
How talented does the dog have to be? Is he going to be a non starter right off the bench or is it a rare dog that's talented enough that it becomes a problem?

Does it need to be arrow straight? Or is a little arc ok? I can see something like a chow's tail curling on top of the back being a big deal, but what about a tail more like a labradors?

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Sharon » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:09 pm

The judges notice a tail. Usually doesn't affect a placement, but all things being equal... One of my setters didn't have a sickle tail , but didn't move its tail when running. I had a judge notice that.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by shags » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:13 pm

Good judges look at the whole dog and its performance; lazy judges use tails as their main criteria. But there are tails and then there are tails. IME some curve like this ( is perfectly acceptable, but when tails literally go south, meaning only level or below, or when they pull over the back, or look like 'c' then the dog might have a harder time winning a placement in some venues. Different types of competitions have different standards.
Sometimes it's not even competition that counts, it's all about what we think is pretty in a dog. IME there are enough things to do with dogs out there that we can find one that best suits our dogs' strengths and weaknesses and our personal preferences.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:57 pm

JONOV wrote:[I get what you're saying. I'll be honest, I don't have much knowledge of the FT world, but let me ask; what are the chances the tail even comes into play?
How talented does the dog have to be? Is he going to be a non starter right off the bench or is it a rare dog that's talented enough that it becomes a problem?

Does it need to be arrow straight? Or is a little arc ok? I can see something like a chow's tail curling on top of the back being a big deal, but what about a tail more like a labradors?

JONOV -

As previously stated, a lot depends on the venue. Most folks have a similar idea of what their idea of perfection is. However, since perfection is not usually attained, each group has different aspects of a dog's performance that they prize more than others.

All age folks have things they HAVE to see in a dog's performance. Shooting dog folks have things they HAVE to see in a dog's performance and cover dog and walking dog folks have things they HAVE to see in a dog's performance. And, you guessed it...the priorities differ in each of the segments.

The all age folks tend to prioritize run, range and endurance the highest, while shooting dog folks tend to prize a dog that handles kindly, has an animated running style including a "merry" tail, hunts with diligence and application and finds birds. The walking and cover dog folks have their priorities as well.

A whole lot also depends on the level of competition, as you might imagine. What is an OK performance for a weekend trial half hour amateur stake may not even be considered in an open championship stake. I live in an area where there are several very successful shooting dog field trial pros. It is not uncommon for the pro to run the dog in the open stake and the dog's amateur owner to run that same dog in the amateur stake. Needless to say, the level of competition tends to be quite high.

You have to keep in mind that a field trial is a "performance". It is a show, put on for the judges. The handler and dog get an allotted time to "show" what they can do.

So... yes, it all matters, it all gets looked at and factored in. All things being equal, a dog that runs with a dead tail will lose out to a dog that runs with a floating tail and that dog will lose out to a dog that runs with a tail that pops and snaps. BUT remember I said ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL and they seldom are.

However, if the performances are very close in the qualities the judges want to see, then, sometimes it comes down to which dog was a little better in a more cosmetic area.

Tail carriage can be one of those cosmetic areas. Now let me say that if a dog is running with a dead tailor one that is hanging down...that is an unattractive running style and that dog would not get consideration in most field trial venues. But if a dog carries a tail that floats along behind...because it is running at warp 9 speed and devouring the course...that dog might well get more consideration(and I think it should) than a dog that was running slower, but with a "merry" tail...in an all age stake. In a shooting dog stake...not so much.

RayG

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by Devilscreekw » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:22 am

I'm with Ray on this one. I'll admit I don't post very often.....but..... started with Vizslas in '63, got my first Pointer in '71, and had a bunch and a couple of setters since. Usually 2 at a time but sometimes as many as 5.

Just came back from Missouri for my 18 month old pup's first stocked bird hunt. Now this dog has been hunting wild ruffies and sharps since he was 5 months old. Ran as a Derby at Mortlach SK this spring, but headed south due to the number of crazies out with rifles up here.

And you know what, he did have trouble with stocked pheasants, for about an HOUR. He was running on the down wind side of milo feed patches, treating them just like he would hunt fence lines and birdy edges for ruffed grouse back home, and not finding anything. Then he figured the roosters were IN the feed patches. We hardly saw him again for a couple hours, as he was going through the milo like a combine, following him by sound and watching for point signal on the Garmin. (I foolishly left my beeper at the truck).

The smart ones can figure it out, but there is no substitute for wild birds to get a dog that stands back of his birds.

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by pointerdog » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:47 pm

Moonshike Ike = Blaine J., Lewistown Montana. What's up, Blaino! :)

I've seen your female and believe me that tail isn't what I'd call a sickle tail. She holds it up at 12 o'clock, about 2" of the end curls forward. Will you be at the spring trial in Great falls in 2017?

How is old Moonshine Ike (the dog)? That is one good ole' pointer, if I wasn't such a GSP snob I'd be getting pup out of him!

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by pointerdog » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:42 pm

<double post>

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greg jacobs
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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:53 pm

Cousins?
Or just a new screen name?

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Re: Rock Acre Blackhawk????

Post by QuillGordon » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:43 pm

greg jacobs wrote:Cousins?
Or just a new screen name?
Sisters most likely

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