Obedience Training

[TN Grouser]

Just had a quick question and wanted to get a few opinions on obedience training. I currently have a 7 month old GSP that lives inside with us. She has just recently been introduced to birds and we are just really starting to get into that training. My biggest problem is that she has taken over the house and really only listens when it is convenient for her. My wife would like to enter her into some structured training in which they teach the basic obedience such as sit, come, heel, wait, and leave it using an e-collar. Will this in any way negatively effect the training that I am doing in the field? Are there things that I can do to make both types of training beneficial, or anything that I should avoid. Just concerned about doing this the right way with my first dog. Thanks for the help in advance!

[Timewise65]

All of my field dogs were started with us in an obedience class. The classes usually met 2-3 times a week in the evening and lasted 1 hour for 6-8 weeks. The trainer we have used a prong collar as an integral part of the training process. That is why we used this trainer! In that way, the dog learns that pressure on the neck was connected to not doing the command they have been given. This of course made the later e collar conditioning easier. We always included e collar conditioning in our FF training later, provided the pup has reached a 95% performance on obedience.

Most prong collars work well, but I prefer ones made by a company up in Chicago (see below). These collars have no prongs in the area of the windpipe and they are also covered in fabric so people walking by you cannot tell the dog is wearing a prong collar. Many people think these collars 'stick the dog', they do not! If you want proof go to the pet store and wrap one around your arm, and snap it as you would on your dog. It does pinch, but does not cut, poke, scratch or anything like that. Used PROPERLY, they are a great training tool. If you have never used one, find a trainer to work with you on using them properly. Like the e collar, improper training technique is harmful to the dog. The good collars I like can be viewed at www.lolalimited.net....

I have no affiliation with this company or anything they make, but I do love these training collars....

[GSPONPOINT32]

Sounds like you should definitely get with a dog trainer. What program are you following for obedience and/or field work?

**Edit**
I did the AKC star class for pups. Lasts about 6 weeks and really helps socialize the dog early with k9 and human interaction. If your GSP is like mine it will need an hour of good hard running off leash daily. This solves any behavior problems at my house. He also will learn about nature without any pressure. Good luck.


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[reba]

Enroll in an basic obedience class. Both you and your wife should attend with your dog. Basic obedience class will NOT hurt a pointing dog............................

Forget about the shock collar until all basic commands are well learned.................................

Reward with praise and ignore bad behavior. All this takes TIME on your part. Don't rush it.


I agree using a trainer for introduction to birds, guns etc. BUT your puppy needs basic obedience first, because it is also a family member living with you and your wife.

I originally used a shock collar to stop my dogs from running live stock. This was good because it also stopped them from running big game. They learned every hooved animal was NO! SHEEP! ZAP! ZAP!

Best wishes

[Steve007]

Reba's post is right on target, especially "no shock collar until commands are learned". I'd say not even then for obedience work. Put the dog back on a lead and train better. And I don't agree with "ignore bad behavior". Very trendy and all, but a 7-month-old dog needs straightening out at times.

In any case, sign up for an obedience class. And then another. It's the best thing you can do for your dog and your family.

[polmaise]

Just had a quick question and wanted to get a few opinions on obedience training. I currently have a 7 month old GSP that lives inside with us. She has just recently been introduced to birds and we are just really starting to get into that training. My biggest problem is that she has taken over the house and really only listens when it is convenient for her. My wife would like to enter her into some structured training in which they teach the basic obedience such as sit, come, heel, wait, and leave it using an e-collar. Will this in any way negatively effect the training that I am doing in the field? Are there things that I can do to make both types of training beneficial, or anything that I should avoid. Just concerned about doing this the right way with my first dog. Thanks for the help in advance!

TBH . If you or your wife can't conduct these simple basic skills without an e-collar then You both are the wrong candidates to have one ..or both .
Sorry /Not ..if it sounds harsh..I was only concerned about the dog .

[TN Grouser]

Thank you everyone for your comments. Just to add we have an 8 year old boxer that we have trained with all the above command and hand signals. I am not saying that I can't train our dog without the use of an e-collar, actually I would prefer not to but a lot of the obedience classes offered in our area use them. This is why I asked the question I did. The dog will actually do most of the commands listed above but there are times when she won't listen, and my wife is having a hard time getting good her to listen consistently.

[Sharon]

TN Grouser:

Obedience in the home will not affect a dog's independence in the field, in fact it will increase pup's confidence.

[shags]

It's much easier to field train a respectful dog than a bratty one. Obedience training can instill respect for you. But forget the ecollar, you need to develop handling skills that will help you later.

[polmaise]

and my wife is having a hard time getting good her to listen consistently.

Send the wife to classes
You take the dog out to play .

[CDN_Cocker]

I wouldn't be jumping for the e-collar yet as it sounds like she hasn't even been through basic obedience drills yet. Get her on a leash and get at it. You are never going to regret teaching your dog manners and in no way is it going to make her less of a bird dog - on the contrary it will make her a bird dog you can actually work with. Get started on basic obedience with a leash - here, no, leave it, whoa (since she's a pointer), sit, heel, down. Once she's reliable then you can add an e-collar if you intend to use one. Remember an e-collar is only for reinforcing known commands when the dog is out of reach. It is not a teaching tool.

[gonehuntin']

WHOA!!! Do NOT enter that dog in a non-hunting obedience class. They are totally different. Why is your wife training the dog, why aren't you using one of the many good programs out there like Perfect Start or Hickox? Makes no sense. Whoever trains the dog, you or your wife, use a hunting program so you can have a system of progression. Forget the ecollar until it is integrated in the program you follow.

[polmaise]

Is 'Programs' , no matter how good they are ,or how good they are promoted or endorsed ..or even if they are recommended in this situation ..by the OP ?
Can you guys who have advised programs ..assure the poster that this is good advice ?.....Or just forum advice .

[GSPONPOINT32]

WHOA!!! Do NOT enter that dog in a non-hunting obedience class. They are totally different. Why is your wife training the dog, why aren't you using one of the many good programs out there like Perfect Start or Hickox? Makes no sense. Whoever trains the dog, you or your wife, use a hunting program so you can have a system of progression. Forget the ecollar until it is integrated in the program you follow.

So you wouldn't recommend taking a 10-15 week old to the 5 week AKC class? Easy socialization and you get the plastic prong collar. I thought it was very beneficial although we didn't utilize half of the commands with our pointer. I let the instructor know my goals and it was a non issue. Started George Hickox program at 14 weeks and thought it went fairly smooth for my first pointing dog. The class really got my wife involved and confident with the pup as well. Guess you have had some bad experiences you may be willing to share.


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[tekoa]

I have trained six Setters using both Hickox's 'Bird Dog Training', and Jonn Hann's 'Perfect Start' methods. Five of the dogs trained with these methods turned out to be well behaved, good to great hunters and great house dogs. The sixth dog was a pain in the "bleep" to train,required frequent correction, wouldn't retrieve, but, because of the use of these training methods and her genetics, turned out to be an 2X FC. Both methods (and many others that I haven't used) provide instruction for the safe, proper, appropriate and effective use of ecollars. Their DVD's are worth the price just for the ecollar advice alone.

If you don't want to train the dog yourself, I agree with the previous posters, don't use pet behavioral trainers. Use a gun dog trainer with experience training your dog's breed. Make sure he/she will train you to handle your dog and use the ecollar.

Good Luck, Let us know how it goes.................

[gonehuntin']

WHOA!!! Do NOT enter that dog in a non-hunting obedience class. They are totally different. Why is your wife training the dog, why aren't you using one of the many good programs out there like Perfect Start or Hickox? Makes no sense. Whoever trains the dog, you or your wife, use a hunting program so you can have a system of progression. Forget the ecollar until it is integrated in the program you follow.

So you wouldn't recommend taking a 10-15 week old to the 5 week AKC class? Easy socialization and you get the plastic prong collar. I thought it was very beneficial although we didn't utilize half of the commands with our pointer. I let the instructor know my goals and it was a non issue. Started George Hickox program at 14 weeks and thought it went fairly smooth for my first pointing dog. The class really got my wife involved and confident with the pup as well. Guess you have had some bad experiences you may be willing to share.


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Only if you weed out,things like sit and down and other command s which, at that age, can regress and not progress your dogs training.

[Steve007]

Only if you weed out,things like sit and down and other command s which, at that age, can regress and not progress your dogs training.

The dog referenced by the OP is seven months old and apparently a full time house dog (or wishes to be). This is a joke, right? Or did your grandpa tell you this when you were six, and you haven't yet noticed he was wrong?

[Sharon]

WHOA!!! Do NOT enter that dog in a non-hunting obedience class. They are totally different. Why is your wife training the dog, why aren't you using one of the many good programs out there like Perfect Start or Hickox? Makes no sense. Whoever trains the dog, you or your wife, use a hunting program so you can have a system of progression. Forget the ecollar until it is integrated in the program you follow.

So you wouldn't recommend taking a 10-15 week old to the 5 week AKC class? Easy socialization and you get the plastic prong collar. I thought it was very beneficial although we didn't utilize half of the commands with our pointer. I let the instructor know my goals and it was a non issue. Started George Hickox program at 14 weeks and thought it went fairly smooth for my first pointing dog. The class really got my wife involved and confident with the pup as well. Guess you have had some bad experiences you may be willing to share.


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Only if you weed out,things like sit and down and other command s which, at that age, can regress and not progress your dogs training.

No need to be snarky like Steve, but that is just a matter of opinion, and yes your opinion is high class 99.99% of the time , but this time. Many teach sit/down in the house and it has no effect on working in the field etc.

edit: left out a word

[gonehuntin']

Only if you weed out,things like sit and down and other command s which, at that age, can regress and not progress your dogs training.

The dog referenced by the OP is seven months old and apparently a full time house dog (or wishes to be). This is a joke, right? Or did your grandpa tell you this when you were six, and you haven't yet noticed he was wrong?

ANY trainer will tell you, it depends on how it's taught and when. With a young dog many times sit becomes a default response and makes training whoa much more difficult. It can also result in the dog sitting on point or laying down. Doesn't matter if it's a house dog or not. If he knows NO and WHOA you can control him anywhere in the house. Just depends on exactly how it's taught. Just safer to wait until the dog's around a year and through ff and whoa. It's easier to spend a week on a command when a dog's older than try to undo a default response taught too young.

[DougB]

Most dogs are pets all year round and hunt for a few month. An untrained dog is a pest, a trained dog can be a joy and a source of pride, and an AKC class can be fun. They teach you how to teach the dog, you get an evening out, and the dog stops being a feral home wrecker. You have an incentive to work with the dog so you improve during the class and not be embarrassed by the dogs behavior. Did I mention that it can be fun. Also, it tires the dog out, and a tired dog is a good dog.

[AAA Gundogs]

Only if you weed out,things like sit and down and other command s which, at that age, can regress and not progress your dogs training.

The dog referenced by the OP is seven months old and apparently a full time house dog (or wishes to be). This is a joke, right? Or did your grandpa tell you this when you were six, and you haven't yet noticed he was wrong?

ANY trainer will tell you, it depends on how it's taught and when. With a young dog many times sit becomes a default response and makes training whoa much more difficult. It can also result in the dog sitting on point or laying down. Doesn't matter if it's a house dog or not. If he knows NO and WHOA you can control him anywhere in the house. Just depends on exactly how it's taught. Just safer to wait until the dog's around a year and through ff and whoa. It's easier to spend a week on a command when a dog's older than try to undo a default response taught too young.

Exactly!

When breaking a dog that has been drilled on sit, especially using pressure relief, you'll be using belly ropes etc to keep that rear up.

Here, No, Kennel, Whoa, and maybe up/down are the basics for me with an unbroken pointing dog.

The default action (ie the pressure relief action) for a pointer and most American trained versatiles should be Whoa. For retrievers, it should be Sit. For Euro-trained versatiles, it should be Halt/Down.

Just my two cents.

[AAA Gundogs]

Most dogs are pets all year round and hunt for a few month. An untrained dog is a pest, a trained dog can be a joy and a source of pride, and an AKC class can be fun. They teach you how to teach the dog, you get an evening out, and the dog stops being a feral home wrecker. You have an incentive to work with the dog so you improve during the class and not be embarrassed by the dogs behavior. Did I mention that it can be fun. Also, it tires the dog out, and a tired dog is a good dog.

I don't think anyone is advocating an untrained dog.

Here, No, Kennel, Whoa and jump Up/Down are all you'd need to have plenty of control of an unbroken pointing dog

[RayGubernat]

If one is looking for a directed, low pressure, hunter friendly way to socialize a young dog, might I suggest checking out yur local NAVHDA chapter. There are often several members with young dogs that are in various stages of training.

Not all training groups are created the same, and not all training groups have the desire to work extensively with young dogs, especially if those dogs won't be progressing in the Navhda system. Some members of these groups can be pretty focused on higher levels of training.

However, if you get with a group that enjoys working with young dogs, a lot of good things can happen. I became associated with a local Navhda training group and they have been very welcoming and supportive of my efforts to socialize and develop a pointer puppy, even though I made it clear that my focus was not on pursuing the Navhda or any other hunt test evaluation(testing) system.

RayG