Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:56 pm

The recent thread regarding field trial dogs got me to thinking. I would like to explore the flip side of the situation.

I think the VAST majority of bird hunters, at least the ones in my neck of the woods are scared silly of field trial pointing dogs and their progeny. They seem to want a dog that never gets pout of their sight and almost always stays within gun range.

I personally have no idea why. I always thought that if a pointing dog never got out beyond gun range, they were pretty much useless...well maybe not useless, but certainly irrelevant. If I have to walk there anyway...why feed a dog to go find birds I was going to walk up anyhow? I do understand the reasons why it is prudent to have a flushing dog within gun range most of the time, but not a pointing dog.

So...birdhunters...tell me why you would want a pointing dog that almost never gets out of gun range. If you don't feel comfortable hunting with a field trial bred dog...why not? I'd really like to know. Maybe I'm missing something.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:51 pm

*********
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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by bustingcover » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:55 pm

Because of wives tales and second hand information. Someone said you can't hunt over a big running field trial dogs and it got repeated over and over. Most people don't realize that a good FT dogs checks in and cues off you and holds point until you catch up.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by polmaise » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:08 pm

RayGubernat wrote:The recent thread regarding field trial dogs got me to thinking. I would like to explore the flip side of the situation.


So...birdhunters...tell me why you would want a pointing dog that almost never gets out of gun range. If you don't feel comfortable hunting with a field trial bred dog...why not? I'd really like to know. Maybe I'm missing something.

RayG
Great Post and yes Good question Ray. Can I expand to 'Flushing Dogs' ?
Having seen so many (rightly or wrongly) both sides of the pond Hunting with the purpose of finding game but often not being able to shoot it . Either by the Game not in Range or the Dog out of Range . Both ''Hunt under control of the handler'' though ?? and most think it's commendable (handling) .

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:11 pm

I think it's all about experience.
For many years I hunted with beagles. One day I happened onto a pointing breed field trial and said , "What the heck is that all about.". Experience taught me the usefulness of having a dog out there where the birds are, especially depending on the terrain/ kind of birds.
Never could understand the usefulness of spaniels flushing. I thought, "I could kick up the bird myself if the dog is going to hunt that close. " Wrong again. Went to 2 spaniel trials and saw how effective a flushing breed is in finding a bird I'd never find.

It's all about the experiences you've had.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by cjhills » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:04 pm

Why are people who happen to like a different dog than either poster considered afraid..........Cj

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Dakotazeb » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:32 pm

I've been a bird (mainly pheasants) hunter for 60 years. Up until the last pointing dog I got 8 years ago I never had one that was in the field trial class. Elle, my Brittany, was a big runner compared to any previous dog. But in my training I stress obedience and I could control her like a dream in the field. Normally I let her run out a few hundred yards but could keep her in tighter if need be. She was the best pheasant dog I've ever had and also a champion NSTRA dog. Unfortunately I had to put her down a month ago at age 8 with a spinal tumor. So in my quest for a new dog it was imperative that the dog be from strong field trial breeding and would have some "run" in her. Hey guys, I"m 70 years old and don't cover the fields like I once did so I want my dog out there d0ing it for me. I'll get the ol' bones over to her when she goes on point. Will the dog bump some birds out of range? Certainly, but had she not ranged out there we probably wouldn't have found that bird anyway. So to answer the question, "Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?" I can answer that with a big "heck NO!"

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by MSU Aggie » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:32 pm

For the casual bird hunter I'd say yes. Most FT dogs are thought to be big runners and hard headed. Now we as dog people know that this isn't true, but FT dogs are stuck with a bad rap. I've worked with a few FT dogs and loved their drive, but give me 20 more years and I doubt I will be able to keep up.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by cjhills » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:06 pm

The beauty of the good bigger running dogs is that you do not have to keep up. You only have to be able to get there. But at 78 a couple hundred yards is enough for me.........Cj

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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Shellottome » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:16 pm

Big running dogs make good all around dogs for a ranch setting. They're much funner in the field hunting. Just a whole different experience. I have a short ranged kicked back dog. She's got to go. I get bored watching her. She would be great at 78 but not at 33.


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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:17 pm

I have to think about a flusher soon , because at 70 I'm down to about 100 yards :)

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:08 pm

What everyone likes in a dog is strictly personal and no ones opinion is better than the next person's opinion.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Vision » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:55 pm

RayGubernat wrote: I personally have no idea why. RayG
I have an idea why. The license is viewed more as a coupon.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:18 pm

Quite a range difference in FT lines. I think that the average bird hunter, that trains a dog every 5 or 10 years can easily be over their head with an all age dog. Not sure a 1000 yd dog is what most are going to want.
I prefer to let a dog be what they are naturally, and hacking a 1000yd dog into a 300 yds dog usually ends up with an unhappy dog and owner.
I've got a 1000yd dog and a 500 yd dog. Both FT lines but from opposite ends of the spectrum. I enjoy a nice quiet hunt with the 500 yd dog more. A mile walk down a canyon and up over the next ridge to find a 1000yd away dog as the crow flys, may not produce birds in the bag with spooky wild birds. By the time I get there I'm breathing to hard to shoot.
Doubt I'll get another dog out of an all age line.
Guess at 60 with two young dogs, my next might need to be a boot licker. Lol.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by mm » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:23 am

I think it depends where you hunt. If you hunt the small preserves on then east coast a good trial dog would go through them very fast. Some public land where I live is surrounded by busy roads so you need to watch your dog at all times. Most people like a close dog for that reason. I hunt my trial dogs but I travel to areas with large property so I can let them run without worry. I sometimes think of getting a lab or other close dog to use back at home where we just don't have the land.
With that said I think that people who trial but do not hunt with their trial dogs feel hunting ruins the dog for trials. I have heard this many times from people at trials.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Max2 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:41 am

ezzy333 wrote:What everyone likes in a dog is strictly personal and no ones opinion is better than the next person's opinion.
I agree with this ^^^

I like a pointy dog. The type hunting we do 35yrds to 75 yrds works best. Grouse mostly but L O V E ! the month of woodcock. That said ~ here where we choose to hunt max sometimes has a hard time gett'n through not to mention me & my cabella vest and single barrel shotgun(AL)

So to answer the O/P's original question I would have to say no... & I don't think that field trial guy's should feel ~ lets say afraid of hunting dogs. Unless they bite :)

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:16 am

Sharon wrote:I have to think about a flusher soon , because at 70 I'm down to about 100 yards :)
Not to worry Sharon... you have options.

Last year I bought a pup out of Ch. Erin's War Creek(Nat'l Open Shooting Dog Ch., and a few trial points shy of being last year's Purina Shooting dog of the year)... and a winning grouse female. He is not quite 12 months old, about 55-60# and can pull me off my feet if I'm not careful. He is a moose.

I have been working him on foot on my home 10 acres and he ranges out, but...if I am quiet, he comes right back in to me, and I mean EVERY time. If I sing to him, he stays out there. He is not quite steady to wing and shot...but he is fairly close to being broke and has been very easy to work. When I take him to the Setter club and run him off horseback, he ranges more, but still keeps one eye on me and where I am. He was introduced to the e-collar when he started to develop selective deafness in the field, and responds immediately to a tickle at 1or at most 2(out of 6).

He WANTS to be with me and wants to please. So far, so good.

A good dog is a good dog.

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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Builderman21 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:41 am

Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:01 am

When you peruse the different boards and look at all the questions, many pertain to calming a dog in the house, blind, car, etc. Many people are not consistent enough nor are they dedicated enough to handle a high power dog in the house and in the field. So I would say YES, many hunters ARE afraid of field trial dogs.

That is a shame, because the great intelligence, tractability, drive and desire all dwell within the field trial genetics. But there is no doubt it takes a disciplinarian to handle those dog's, be they retriever, pointing dog or spaniel.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Devilscreekw » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:10 am

Well I certainly am not, as I trial from time to time, and prefer dogs from horse back shooting dog lines. My current pup has an interesting group of grandparents.

On the sire side grandparents are : Ch. Guard Rail bred to a littermate toNat. Ch. Miller's On Line

On the dam's side: Ch. Erin's Stoney River bred to a daughter of Elhew Fibber McGee.

And yet he is a 300 yard dog in wide open country and 65 to 85 yds in cover.

I sympathize Sharon, I'll be 69 in the spring, but the last thing I want to do is walk every piece of cover, and every edge of a field. I hired a Pointer to do that for me.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:12 am

Builderman21 wrote:Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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Methinks you are overstating the case...just a wee bit.

If ALL the birds in your area behaved like that, they would be impossible to hunt, with or without a dog.... If they ALL got up wild at the sound of a breech closing at 200 yards, how in the heck do you walk within shooting range, much less run a dog within shooting range?

Hunter wise birds, especially pheasant, will exit, stage left at the earliest opportunity. Been there...know that. But that just means you have to consider the terrain, the wind and the cover when you make your approach to likely bird spots.

Just sayin'.


You want your dogs to stay close. That works for you and that is what is important.

RayG

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by greg jacobs » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:43 am

Last year it wasn't sunup, was below 0°, late in the season when they flock up. I pulled up to the field. The moment I shut the truck off one nervous bird busted out 300 yds and the whole flock busted. Around here they get pretty wild late in the year. All the dumb ones have already been on someone's dinner table.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by bustingcover » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:44 am

Among the reasoning I stated before about the lack of people actual hands on knowledge/experience with a good FT dog I think the other case would have to be the work involved. It takes constant pressure and discipline to keep a dog proper broke for FT that you really just don't NEED for typical hunting. Now a great trial dog is going to get you birds but you just don't need that level of training.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:48 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Builderman21 wrote:Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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Methinks you are overstating the case...just a wee bit.

If ALL the birds in your area behaved like that, they would be impossible to hunt, with or without a dog.... If they ALL got up wild at the sound of a breech closing at 200 yards, how in the heck do you walk within shooting range, much less run a dog within shooting range?

Hunter wise birds, especially pheasant, will exit, stage left at the earliest opportunity. Been there...know that. But that just means you have to consider the terrain, the wind and the cover when you make your approach to likely bird spots.

Just sayin'.


You want your dogs to stay close. That works for you and that is what is important.

RayG
Amen

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by bustingcover » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:53 am

Builderman21 wrote:Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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What I never understood about the spooky bird reasoning is if all your birds are busting wild 200+ yards out at the slightest disturbance (gun, car, boot, etc)then wouldn't they flush 200+ yards out regardless if your dog is close or a mile away?

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by slistoe » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:48 am

greg jacobs wrote:Last year it wasn't sunup, was below 0°, late in the season when they flock up. I pulled up to the field. The moment I shut the truck off one nervous bird busted out 300 yds and the whole flock busted. Around here they get pretty wild late in the year. All the dumb ones have already been on someone's dinner table.
So, you drank your coffee and went home?

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:54 pm

Devilscreekw wrote:Well I certainly am not, as I trial from time to time, and prefer dogs from horse back shooting dog lines. My current pup has an interesting group of grandparents.

On the sire side grandparents are : Ch. Guard Rail bred to a littermate toNat. Ch. Miller's On Line

On the dam's side: Ch. Erin's Stoney River bred to a daughter of Elhew Fibber McGee.

And yet he is a 300 yard dog in wide open country and 65 to 85 yds in cover.

I sympathize Sharon, I'll be 69 in the spring, but the last thing I want to do is walk every piece of cover, and every edge of a field. I hired a Pointer to do that for me.
LOL Yes but you still got to get there. My dog will hold forever , thank heaven.

"A good dog is a good dog." quote Ray ...............and that is SO true.
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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Builderman21 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:49 pm

bustingcover wrote:
Builderman21 wrote:Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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What I never understood about the spooky bird reasoning is if all your birds are busting wild 200+ yards out at the slightest disturbance (gun, car, boot, etc)then wouldn't they flush 200+ yards out regardless if your dog is close or a mile away?
Most times they do. This year had a lot of birds coming up like that. Dogs didn't make a difference on it. Not that I've seen a rooster out here hold long enough for me to get over a hundred yards up to it. But I hunt my dogs the way we hunt, my GSP is from a family of field trial champions just not my thing.


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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Builderman21 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:55 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Builderman21 wrote:Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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Methinks you are overstating the case...just a wee bit.

If ALL the birds in your area behaved like that, they would be impossible to hunt, with or without a dog.... If they ALL got up wild at the sound of a breech closing at 200 yards, how in the heck do you walk within shooting range, much less run a dog within shooting range?

Hunter wise birds, especially pheasant, will exit, stage left at the earliest opportunity. Been there...know that. But that just means you have to consider the terrain, the wind and the cover when you make your approach to likely bird spots.

Just sayin'.


You want your dogs to stay close. That works for you and that is what is important.

RayG
This year for sure has been tough. Grouse flush 70-100 yards up with or without dogs. We had birds that would bust and birds that would flush on your feet. Late standing crops and short grass this year made for birds that knew where to go.


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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by greg jacobs » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:48 pm

slistoe wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:Last year it wasn't sunup, was below 0°, late in the season when they flock up. I pulled up to the field. The moment I shut the truck off one nervous bird busted out 300 yds and the whole flock busted. Around here they get pretty wild late in the year. All the dumb ones have already been on someone's dinner table.
So, you drank your coffee and went home?
Nope. Bailed out to see if any dumb ones were still hanging around

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:41 pm

Builderman21 wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
Builderman21 wrote:Our birds flush 200 yards out when you close your gun. We hunt with some guys that have phenomenal dogs, they just don't work in this area. He praised how his dog can hold a bird and the first year here not one bird held. We drive down the road and pheasants flush up 300 yards away in a field. Spooky birds makes me keep mine in under 50 yards


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Methinks you are overstating the case...just a wee bit.

If ALL the birds in your area behaved like that, they would be impossible to hunt, with or without a dog.... If they ALL got up wild at the sound of a breech closing at 200 yards, how in the heck do you walk within shooting range, much less run a dog within shooting range?

Hunter wise birds, especially pheasant, will exit, stage left at the earliest opportunity. Been there...know that. But that just means you have to consider the terrain, the wind and the cover when you make your approach to likely bird spots.

Just sayin'.


You want your dogs to stay close. That works for you and that is what is important.

RayG
This year for sure has been tough. Grouse flush 70-100 yards up with or without dogs. We had birds that would bust and birds that would flush on your feet. Late standing crops and short grass this year made for birds that knew where to go.


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I can't speak to many bird species, but pheasants can put a lot of distance between themselves and a gun by just legging it, and then, to add insult to injury, they just might flush wild anyhow.

As much as I hate the practices, hunting into blockers at the edge of a field, or having two groups do a pincers type movement are often the only practical ways to reduce a pheasant to a point in open country. Dogs that can smell and then outrun and outflank a running pheasant, trapping it between themselves and the hunter...are a rare commodity, and even then it don't always work the way it is supposed to.

RayG

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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Builderman21 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:46 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Builderman21 wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
Methinks you are overstating the case...just a wee bit.

If ALL the birds in your area behaved like that, they would be impossible to hunt, with or without a dog.... If they ALL got up wild at the sound of a breech closing at 200 yards, how in the heck do you walk within shooting range, much less run a dog within shooting range?

Hunter wise birds, especially pheasant, will exit, stage left at the earliest opportunity. Been there...know that. But that just means you have to consider the terrain, the wind and the cover when you make your approach to likely bird spots.

Just sayin'.


You want your dogs to stay close. That works for you and that is what is important.

RayG
This year for sure has been tough. Grouse flush 70-100 yards up with or without dogs. We had birds that would bust and birds that would flush on your feet. Late standing crops and short grass this year made for birds that knew where to go.


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I can't speak to many bird species, but pheasants can put a lot of distance between themselves and a gun by just legging it, and then, to add insult to injury, they just might flush wild anyhow.

As much as I hate the practices, hunting into blockers at the edge of a field, or having two groups do a pincers type movement are often the only practical ways to reduce a pheasant to a point in open country. Dogs that can smell and then outrun and outflank a running pheasant, trapping it between themselves and the hunter...are a rare commodity, and even then it don't always work the way it is supposed to.

RayG
I grew up hunting pheasants in PA and when I got here I found out that it's a different world to me. #4 shot and birds still run and get away. Spooky and quick. The sharptails were completely new and interesting


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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by jetjockey » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:34 am

I've been fortunate enough to hunt pheasants from WA to PA and many places in between. IMO it all depends on cover. If there's decent cover in the form of knocked down milo or heavy grass, you can get pheasants pointed, even late season. In CO right now even the hens are track stars. But you can still get roosters with a good dog and being ver quiet. I hunt my trial dog a lot, even on late season roosters. We do just fine.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:09 pm

The average guy should be afraid of field trial dogs because most guys do such a poor job of training their dogs, in the field and obedience, that they're better off "hunting" with a low drive bootlicking house pet.

Having an obedient dog that ranges 100 yards or more and holds point is speaking a foreign language to most.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:09 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:The average guy should be afraid of field trial dogs because most guys do such a poor job of training their dogs, in the field and obedience, that they're better off "hunting" with a low drive bootlicking house pet.

Having an obedient dog that ranges 100 yards or more and holds point is speaking a foreign language to most.
I think you are right to some extent but you make it sound like what most people want is somehow inferior to what you like, both dog wise and training wise and that is not true. It is just their wants and needs are different than yours or mine.

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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Builderman21 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:12 pm

Guess average people shouldn't have dogs than or hunt birds if that's the way you look at it. Attitudes like that are where animosity starts in questions like this. Guess my average "bleep" will just stop hunting and keep my boot licking dogs in a house. Thought hunting and shooting communities were supposed to be positive and helpful and supportive. Guess I had that wrong.


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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Max2 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:01 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:
Having an obedient dog that ranges 100 yards or more and holds point is speaking a foreign language to most.
To some perhaps. ~ I would guess probably not most though

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:35 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:The average guy should be afraid of field trial dogs because most guys do such a poor job of training their dogs, in the field and obedience, that they're better off "hunting" with a low drive bootlicking house pet.

Having an obedient dog that ranges 100 yards or more and holds point is speaking a foreign language to most.

AAA -

I commented to Builderman that he may have overstated his case a wee bit. Methinks you may well have done exactly the same thing on the opposite end of the stick.

Not everyone has the time, equipment, skill or NEED to have a dog that is dead broke to wing, shot and fall and which will retrieve directly to hand, out and back with no deviation...on command.

Field trailers do need that level of performance out of their dogs and they work relentlessly to that end, because the difference between a winning performance and a goose egg can be a step or two at the wrong time. Any trialer worth their salt knows how close to perfection a dog's performance has to be in order to be considered for placements in hour stakes.

But a lot of that simply is not necessary for a hunting dog. It really is not.

Honestly, if I had a dog that didn't retrieve, but instead pointed dead...I'd be fine with that. When I am too crippled up or lazy to bend over and pick up my own birds...it is time for me to hang it up. If I had a dog that would stand until I got there, and let me flush, but which was out after the bird at the first wing beat...I'd be fine with that if I was hunting alone or with trusted companions. For the record...that is what I hunted over, for many years, until I got interested in and involved in trialing...and I was quite happy with most of those dogs...because they got the job done...just fine.

Not everyone wants or needs a dog that is trained and reliable to field trial standards. For my part, it can be a real PIA to have to have go into training mode when I just want to enjoy the hunt... but if the dog takes liberties, you have to correct them...right then and there or it will come back to bite you in a trial. That can get in the way of just having fun hunting with your dog, but it a price that must be paid if you hunt your trial dogs.

I think a lot of the hype over field trial dogs is misplaced, but some of it is for real. A young pointer can be a real handful, both in the yard and in the field, and I have seen many hard charging pointers that would yank you off your feet if you tried to hold them back in the field. I have had a few myself. Not everyone is ready for that kind of dog. But those young dog do in fact grow up and mature. As they mature, they tend to become somewhat better at being companion dogs in the off season.

I cannot speak for other bird dog breeds, but I do know that most pointers have a very definite "OFF" switch. The same adult dog that would chew through a fence to get to a bird on the other side, will very often be found laying around, doing darn near nothing, when the hunting gear has been put away. Maybe they learn not to waste their energy...I don't know, but I have seen my dogs turn it on and turn it off enough times to know that it is real.

Different folks have different wants and needs. I'm fine with that. A good, reliable meat dog is just as much a treasure to their owner as a winning trial dog is to theirs. That is as it should be.

I think it is the job of field trailers to educate, to encourage and to try to help others to get the most out of their dogs, as we try to do.

We know we have to have dogs that approach perfection in action, to be competitive, so we have learned how to get that done. I believe it is our responsibility to try and pass that knowledge and those skills on to those who wish to learn.

To do less, IMO is to disrespect those who took the time to teach us. If someone chooses not to use what I have to give, I'm fine with that too, because I tried.

RayG



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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:39 pm

Sounds Like a Preacher friend of Mine.........Cj

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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by GSPONPOINT32 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:19 pm

I got my first pointer 1 year ago. He's certainly not going to be up to AAA standard. Having tons of fun training and hunting him! He's steady to flush and retrieves to my general vicinity. Ranges 50 yards or so and wants to be able to see me most of the time. Last 6 months he has turned into an obedient member of the family but still manages to grab things he's not supposed to when we aren't watching. Guess I should give him away and rise to the level of AAA.


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Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Shellottome » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:46 am

AAA I understand your statement and I from the sounds of it hunt the same..... I think your personal feelings and presentation of your feelings came off rude. Got to love the big runners.... So fun to watch.


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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by gundogguy » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:53 am

RayGubernat wrote:The recent thread regarding field trial dogs got me to thinking. I would like to explore the flip side of the situation.

I think the VAST majority of bird hunters, at least the ones in my neck of the woods are scared silly of field trial pointing dogs and their progeny. They seem to want a dog that never gets pout of their sight and almost always stays within gun range.

I personally have no idea why. I always thought that if a pointing dog never got out beyond gun range, they were pretty much useless...well maybe not useless, but certainly irrelevant. If I have to walk there anyway...why feed a dog to go find birds I was going to walk up anyhow? I do understand the reasons why it is prudent to have a flushing dog within gun range most of the time, but not a pointing dog.

So...birdhunters...tell me why you would want a pointing dog that almost never gets out of gun range. If you don't feel comfortable hunting with a field trial bred dog...why not? I'd really like to know. Maybe I'm missing something.

RayG
I may have missed something stated in this thread. if so please forgive me. Most hunters I have been around have usually stay away from Field trial pups because of the pricing difference between a Field champion breeding and a breeding between "Sally good hunter X good ole boy Roy" Has any body seen this or is money just not an issue in choices hunters make.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:39 am

In the past, when we were actively involved in all of the dog sports, we were raising at least two litters a year and many were going to families that liked to hunt and had been for several years. Field trials were not something most wanted anything to do with. At that time I saw the pendulum swing to the extreme where run was 90% of what AA dogs were judged on and size. temperament, confirmation, and birdfinding were given little consideration. It was a time where many of the good breeders shunned the AA type and many of us used gun dog type or just good hunters that we all knew about. But I saw the pendulum start back and we started to see a change in what was important and good solid bird dogs became more available and useful in the trial dogs. However, the available birds and places to hunt in the eastern part of the country also changed and run and range in our dogs did not always fit into our needs.

Today the major market is still a family hunting dog and many of the families involved have little interest in trialing and consequently have no need for the type of dogs that many of us like to see. It is up to us to have the understanding that different folks have different strokes and realize there is room for everyone in our pool. The water is warm, jump in join the fun, and get acquainted with everyone, even if they like a different stroke than you.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by mask » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:20 pm

I have had AA bred pointers for over 60 years so here goes. First off, not all AA BRED pointers make AA field trial dogs. Most probably don't but are very well bred and do make good hunting dogs. Good conformation is a must because without it they can't stand up to the rigors of AA trials or hunting in rough country. As far as temperament goes I have never had a pointer that didn't love it in the house and want to be right with you. So a good honest breeder is a very important part of the puzzle. Tell the breeder the type dog you want and what you will be doing with it and you will be ahead of the game. Knowing what you want in a dog is paramount and training for that is vitally important as well. Buy the best individual of the breed you settle on. You cant maker a silk purse from a sows ear and the initial investment is usually the inexpensive part anyway. So my answer to the question is no. Happy New Year and good hunting.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:23 pm

GSPONPOINT32 wrote:I got my first pointer 1 year ago. He's certainly not going to be up to AAA standard. Having tons of fun training and hunting him! He's steady to flush and retrieves to my general vicinity. Ranges 50 yards or so and wants to be able to see me most of the time. Last 6 months he has turned into an obedient member of the family but still manages to grab things he's not supposed to when we aren't watching. Guess I should give him away and rise to the level of AAA.
If you've found this board, you're ahead of 50% of other guys.

Do you have a reliable recall? If so, you're ahead of 75% of other guys.

Does the dog hold point and not race you to flush? If so, you're ahead of 90% of dogs.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:32 pm

gundogguy wrote: I may have missed something stated in this thread. if so please forgive me. Most hunters I have been around have usually stay away from Field trial pups because of the pricing difference between a Field champion breeding and a breeding between "Sally good hunter X good ole boy Roy" Has any body seen this or is money just not an issue in choices hunters make.
You'd think that would be the case regarding pricing but you'll see fantastically bred field trial litters selling in the field trial facebook groups for SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLARS LESS than puppies from empty pedigree litters on the regional hunting facebook groups.

It's actually pretty amazing to watch.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by AAA Gundogs » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:54 pm

ezzy333 wrote:In the past, when we were actively involved in all of the dog sports, we were raising at least two litters a year and many were going to families that liked to hunt and had been for several years. Field trials were not something most wanted anything to do with. At that time I saw the pendulum swing to the extreme where run was 90% of what AA dogs were judged on and size. temperament, confirmation, and birdfinding were given little consideration. It was a time where many of the good breeders shunned the AA type and many of us used gun dog type or just good hunters that we all knew about. But I saw the pendulum start back and we started to see a change in what was important and good solid bird dogs became more available and useful in the trial dogs. However, the available birds and places to hunt in the eastern part of the country also changed and run and range in our dogs did not always fit into our needs.

Today the major market is still a family hunting dog and many of the families involved have little interest in trialing and consequently have no need for the type of dogs that many of us like to see. It is up to us to have the understanding that different folks have different strokes and realize there is room for everyone in our pool. The water is warm, jump in join the fun, and get acquainted with everyone, even if they like a different stroke than you.
Well, you should be happy now because I don't remember a time when the lines between all age and shooting dog have been more blurry.

Love 'em or hate 'em, the guys that were trying to breed pure all age dogs created some athletic freaks. Good sized dogs that run with power, speed, and endurance.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by bustingcover » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:56 pm

When the term "field trial dog" is used it seems like people are referring to a few different things. Either a dog bred from FT dogs, an out of control big running dog, or a fully broke AA dog. A "derby broke" dog is a field trial dog but in most cases not much different than a lot of steady "meat dogs". I think it would help the discussion if the term field trial dog is clarified.

A fully broke AA dog is a dream as you are looking at a dog at the highest level of training and ability. Sure its going to range out but its going to hold point until you get there with the Garmin. Now I don't see why someone wouldn't want to own a trained AA pointer but amount of training and discipline required for an AA pointer is not necessary for most of the hunting population.

An out of control big running dog is the case I see most people bring up when speaking against wanting a FT dog. Running away and blowing up birds. This is not a FT dog. I mean it could be if someone decided to enter a FT with the dog but nobody is going todo that. This type of dog is useless to bird hunters and trials both.

As for dogs bred from FT dogs, people are scared off by ignorance. (and as someone also said sometimes price) They believe every dog from a FT focused litter is going to be a hard charging, hard to control, big running fool. Anyone who breeds dogs knows this is a falsehood. I don't know anyone who is breeding litters that make 100% AA dogs, it's just not that easy.

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by Sharon » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:16 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:
If you've found this board, you're ahead of 50% of other guys.

Do you have a reliable recall? If so, you're ahead of 75% of other guys.

Does the dog hold point and not race you to flush? If so, you're ahead of 90% of dogs.
Well said!

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Re: Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

Post by cjhills » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:54 pm

AAA Gundogs wrote:
GSPONPOINT32 wrote:I got my first pointer 1 year ago. He's certainly not going to be up to AAA standard. Having tons of fun training and hunting him! He's steady to flush and retrieves to my general vicinity. Ranges 50 yards or so and wants to be able to see me most of the time. Last 6 months he has turned into an obedient member of the family but still manages to grab things he's not supposed to when we aren't watching. Guess I should give him away and rise to the level of AAA.
If you've found this board, you're ahead of 50% of other guys.

Do you have a reliable recall? If so, you're ahead of 75% of other guys.

Does the dog hold point and not race you to flush? If so, you're ahead of 90% of dogs.
I do not quite get this post. I hunt with quite a few dog owners most dogs have a good recall. Generally they over use it and keep the dog too close. Most all their dogs will hold until the flush. Most all want their dogs to go on the flush or the shot. Most think their dogs lose birds if they wait until sent. Most want their dogs to retrieve to hand.
We train are dogs to AKC Master hunter level. We send our dogs on the retrieve and we absolutely require a retrieve to hand. Most hunters will let their dogs slide to Senior Level which allows you to call the dog on the retrieve.
Someone said farther back if he could not bend over and pick up a bird he would quit hunting. I hate to see a dog drop a live rooster three or four feet away. Things can get exciting fast with three or four people with loaded guns chasing the bird. Or the bird escapes. Most of the bird dog manners are not really necessary for hunting. But Like a lot of things in life they sure do make things a lot nicer.
Dog manners are not limited to trial dogs. Most are a long ways from being trained to perfection. Generally they are not allowed to retrieve except for a few breed trials which are limited to Set up retrieves with planted birds after the braces. Sometimes in the Gsps retrieving trials the top four dogs won't retrieve so they withhold all places.
Very few hunters in the east or mid west have a need for a All Age dog. It is not that they can not be trained to perform in the grouse woods or farm country. And it is not that hunters are afraid of trial dogs. But why would you bother when we breed dogs that work in the country we hunt and will also perform in the west.
Before everybody freaks I have some dogs that cover a lot of country and I love the big runners, but They do not produce more birds than the two hundred yard dogs and as they grow older we are phasing them out......Cj

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