Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:08 pm

Guys -

Lots of good input in the most recent posts from AAA gundogs, bustingcover and mask. Lots of food for thought for hunters who may soon be looking for their next hunting companion.

Gundogguy for example, was I think, spot on with his observation about the perceived cost of field trial dogs by some folks. But as mentioned by AAA, that is, for the most part simply not the case.

This is just the kind of misconception I was hoping to bring to light. Some field trial breedings do command a fairly high price...but many very finely bred litters do not.

I purchased a pup, last year that was sired by a recent National Shooting Dog champion and the advertised price was $650. I have seen labradoodles, which are essentially mutts, in the local paper for twice that. A few years before this I had the first pick pup out of top field trial stock and paid $350. The price of some lap dogs, like a Cavalier King Charles spaniel will make your eyes bulge.

FWIW, the pup I bought last year is now a few weeks shy of one year old and is well on his way to being broke. He has been a joy to work with and is incredibly cooperative. BUT there is no doubt that he is a lot of dog, physically, and not for the faint of heart. When I run him in the field, he could be gone and out of sight in less time than it takes to read this sentence. But he stays with me and hunts for me...because he WANTS to and I want him to...for now. I work him on foot, for the most part...because I WANT him to stay close.

Keep it coming guys. The truth will help the average hunter make the best, most informed decision and help them to get the best dog for their needs.

If you are a bird hunter and have reservations about or problems with field trial bred stock... PLEASE voice your concerns. If it is a concern, it is certainly worth discussing. Maybe there are options. Maybe not. Lots of good folks on this board with lots of experience.

RayG

luvthemud · Post by **luvthemud** » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:46 pm

I hunted behind close working flushers and labs my entire life. Fell in love with pointing dog hunting after hunting with a co-worker and his what I know now to be his close working GSP. I paid a ton of money to have my pup trained by the breeder and the first time out with him I was not only afraid...but mad as heck at myself that I made the wrong decision. SImply put...I had no fricken idea how to hunt behind a pointing dog, much less one that was extremely high energy and liked to range. The breeder/trainer labeled him as "lightning in a bottle" and often told me that he liked to cover a lot of ground during his training. I simply didn't know what I was getting into.

I called the trainer after my first opening weekend with him and asked "how do i slow this dog down a little bit"....hunting busy public land or smaller parcels can get frustrating when you cannot control your dog due to inexperience! This dog would run like a greyhound chasing fur for the first 10 minutes and this scared me! "he is going to chase the birds away", "he can't possibly be using his nose while running so fast", "I should have just gotten a lab" were uttered numerous times. When I called the breeder/trainer, he not only reaffirmed my fears, he made them worse! He told me that he has a lot of "field trial" in him, so this range and fast working is normal! ugh...what did i do?

but then.... I started realizing that his nose did work at high speed....and that not every single bird in a field ran away to the next field...I realized that watching him work a large field back to me was a beautiful thing and that having a dog that I could trust without having eyes on him was more fun and rewarding than actually shooting birds!!! I let the dog train me..and I was no longer afraid!

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:36 am

Enjoyed reading that post 'luvthemud' .Reminded me of a handler that had a Young dog here for basic training ,a few weeks after collecting him the owner said 'I don't know how to drive this thing ' . I think what he actually meant was He couldn't read the dog.
The two were soon working as a team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDdhuzB9Pzc

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:24 am

RayGubernat wrote:Guys -

Lots of good input in the most recent posts from AAA gundogs, bustingcover and mask. Lots of food for thought for hunters who may soon be looking for their next hunting companion.

Gundogguy for example, was I think, spot on with his observation about the perceived cost of field trial dogs by some folks. But as mentioned by AAA, that is, for the most part simply not the case.

This is just the kind of misconception I was hoping to bring to light. Some field trial breedings do command a fairly high price...but many very finely bred litters do not.

I purchased a pup, last year that was sired by a recent National Shooting Dog champion and the advertised price was $650. I have seen labradoodles, which are essentially mutts, in the local paper for twice that. A few years before this I had the first pick pup out of top field trial stock and paid $350. The price of some lap dogs, like a Cavalier King Charles spaniel will make your eyes bulge.

FWIW, the pup I bought last year is now a few weeks shy of one year old and is well on his way to being broke. He has been a joy to work with and is incredibly cooperative. BUT there is no doubt that he is a lot of dog, physically, and not for the faint of heart. When I run him in the field, he could be gone and out of sight in less time than it takes to read this sentence. But he stays with me and hunts for me...because he WANTS to and I want him to...for now. I work him on foot, for the most part...because I WANT him to stay close.

Keep it coming guys. The truth will help the average hunter make the best, most informed decision and help them to get the best dog for their needs.

If you are a bird hunter and have reservations about or problems with field trial bred stock... PLEASE voice your concerns. If it is a concern, it is certainly worth discussing. Maybe there are options. Maybe not. Lots of good folks on this board with lots of experience.

RayG

Thanks for pricing informaton. Though I have trained many a pointy type dog,I very seldom had spoke of pup pricing with folks that had just purchased EP,ES,GSP, Britt pups.
I never realized that there was such a level of pricing disparity between the style of dogs. AA spaniel pups will usually start at 850.00 and top out at 1500.00. Pet bred or companion pups would only command 400-600. Here in Michigan there are very few breeders of note. And the best I can tell very few pet breedings as well.
Pricing of AA Retrievers would even be higher than Spaniel pricing.
So in reality Price of a Field Trial Pointing dog would not be a fearful thing for bird hunters. Range, drive, and subsequent style and class would be the outstanding factors. Good question this thread makes!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:57 am

I think there are 3 main reasons the average hunter stays away from field trial dogs. They think they're high strung, high priced and they don't know the difference between a decent dog and an exceptional one. Most guys have never seen a trial or a well trained trial dog so they don't even know what their breed of choice is capable of. One of my buddies I hunt with regularly has labs. Not even solid hunting line breeding, just labs because "labs are hunting dogs". He has told me many times that he thinks it's silly that field trial lines are important to me in a dog yet is amazed by my dog in the field every time. He has 3 labs - 2 of which I have never seen retrieve. The third won't retrieve from land (just runs to bird and back like other 2) but will retrieve from water most times and drop the bird as soon as it gets to land. He is happy with that as its out of the water and he doesn't mind getting out of the blind and walking to the water's edge to get it. My cocker always out shines his labs but he chalks it up to the fact I trained mine - his dogs trained themselves according to him...and it shows lol.

Moral of the story- they don't know what they're missing.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:28 pm

I like to actually SEE my dogs hunt and read their body language. That way I will know what they and the birds are doing, especially on running Pheasants so I at least have a chance on birds that have been highly educated by the 4-5 weeks of other hunters before I can get out west to hunt them. How boring and inefficient to hear your Astro beep and see that old Rover is on point 400+ yards to your left and you have no idea if all that ground was even covered by the dog. And all you can do is trudge over, scare off the birds the dog missed, and see if the birds are still there the 5, 10, 15 minutes it might take you to get there depending on the terrain. Read: Chukar country.

Not all of us live in big country. A dog that hunts grouse in my home coverts that ranges out to 200+ yards will often find itself through the covert and on private property and with some of the hill billys I know will be shot. Or run over by a car because the dog will be crossing the rural highway without me knowing it....and having no way to protect the dog.

Same with hunting at the club. A 200+ yard dog that goes on point close to the road and then the bird flushes and the dog chases is a dead dog on the highway. And yes...I don't believe in steady to wing and shot because a wild rooster that is wounded in NoDak or Kansas or Iowa needs that dog on it's hiner the instant it hits the ground or you have just killed a bird that you won't find in chest high grass and 30 mph winds. IMO.

Speaking of winds, a dog in PA hunting grouse will be well out of your whistle range in as little as 100 yards in a decent wind at times. In those mountains your dog is as good as lost in 5 minutes. Swell. Same goes for Milo stubble in Kansas. Just last year I had one dog at 530 yards and the other at 240 yards in opposite directions because they couldn't find me in all the noise the stubble was making. And in those conditions, especially in the mountains, your whistle will echo and you dog will actually run AWAY from you. Seen it many times.

Ever have a dog attacked by a deer? Chase a wounded bear? Get caught in barbed wire? Get caught in a trap? Porcupine? Where would you rather be? Within 150 yards or 400-600 away while your dog's life is in eminent danger??

That's why a long range dog to me is nothing short of a PIA and useless for my hunting style, in my humble but experienced opinion. Unless you are in the shortgrass prairie chasing Huns and Sharpies of course.

bustingcover · Post by **bustingcover** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:16 am

ThreeBritts have your opinions come from actually hunting behind trained trial dogs in these different covers/scenarios or more what you think might/would happen?

I ask because most people with an Astro know you can check on the map where the dog has and hasn't covered.

100% people can like what they like for whatever reason the choose to give or not give. I just know a lot would be surprised if they actually got the opportunity to see these dogs in these situations.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:59 am

ThreeBritts wrote:I like to actually SEE my dogs hunt and read their body language. That way I will know what they and the birds are doing, especially on running Pheasants so I at least have a chance on birds that have been highly educated by the 4-5 weeks of other hunters before I can get out west to hunt them. How boring and inefficient to hear your Astro beep and see that old Rover is on point 400+ yards to your left and you have no idea if all that ground was even covered by the dog. And all you can do is trudge over, scare off the birds the dog missed, and see if the birds are still there the 5, 10, 15 minutes it might take you to get there depending on the terrain. Read: Chukar country.

Not all of us live in big country. A dog that hunts grouse in my home coverts that ranges out to 200+ yards will often find itself through the covert and on private property and with some of the hill billys I know will be shot. Or run over by a car because the dog will be crossing the rural highway without me knowing it....and having no way to protect the dog.

Same with hunting at the club. A 200+ yard dog that goes on point close to the road and then the bird flushes and the dog chases is a dead dog on the highway. And yes...I don't believe in steady to wing and shot because a wild rooster that is wounded in NoDak or Kansas or Iowa needs that dog on it's hiner the instant it hits the ground or you have just killed a bird that you won't find in chest high grass and 30 mph winds. IMO.

Speaking of winds, a dog in PA hunting grouse will be well out of your whistle range in as little as 100 yards in a decent wind at times. In those mountains your dog is as good as lost in 5 minutes. Swell. Same goes for Milo stubble in Kansas. Just last year I had one dog at 530 yards and the other at 240 yards in opposite directions because they couldn't find me in all the noise the stubble was making. And in those conditions, especially in the mountains, your whistle will echo and you dog will actually run AWAY from you. Seen it many times.

Ever have a dog attacked by a deer? Chase a wounded bear? Get caught in barbed wire? Get caught in a trap? Porcupine? Where would you rather be? Within 150 yards or 400-600 away while your dog's life is in eminent danger??

That's why a long range dog to me is nothing short of a PIA and useless for my hunting style, in my humble but experienced opinion. Unless you are in the shortgrass prairie chasing Huns and Sharpies of course.

Huh? If you want to know the ground your dog has covered, look at the map on the GPS. What's inefficient is a dog that constantly checks in at 50 yards and keeps covering his tracks as he yoyo's in and out. As far as pheasants go, 4-5 weeks of pressure is nothing. Come on out West now when they have had 2+ months of pressure. This is when a smart big ranging dog becomes even more beneficial..... Speaking of a dog running across a road or hunting private property, Buy the OnX maps for the GPS and you will know exactly where your dog is at all times, wether it's on public or private land, and if it's on private land, who the hillbilly is that ownes the land. Heck, maybe the dog finds birds on old hillbillies land, with OnX you have ole Hillbillies name so you can ask permission to hunt the land.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:56 am

Yes, I have hunted behind trial/AA/long range dogs. I thought I made that obvious. Seen my share of dogs who run like their tails are on fire and outrun their noses. Good times.

As for checking your GPS on where the dog has been, what do you do if you look and find out that the pup HAS missed a good chunk of cover? Walk only where he has been to the point he is now on? What about the big runners who bust the birds(that you may or may not even know about) on his way to the one he finally found to point? What in the heck good is your GPS map then??

Really, this is all you fellas have in retort? And BTW, where I'm from, when a dog is on point you get your happy little hiner to that dog ASAP....not fool with your GPS maps on the way.

And yes, I also have the chips for all the roads and topo maps for the 6-7 states I hunt. Funny thing is though...I go to hunt with my dogs to enjoy their work and companionship and maybe put a few birds in the vest. Not to be constantly worrying on where they are and having to look at a little 2" X 3" screen on my Astro hoping I can get them turned around before they are toast. I hunt for fun. And THAT my friends, is not fun to me.

Oh, I forgot to mention....something like 83 dogs have been killed by wolves this year up north. How far out do you want your dog in THAT country?? Not all of us hunt private ground in Texas you know, on birds that are much easier than ones that run to stay alive. And I'm not putting down Bobs. I love the little guys, I'm just stating there is a reason they have the name "Gentleman Bob".

As for pressure on Pheasants, yes, I am well aware that a Phez in late November/early December can at times be not as difficult as one in Jan. But throw in some fresh Jan snow and Phez then can be pretty easy. A dogs range has little to do with if he has the smarts/experience to handle a track star phez or not.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:00 am

ThreeBritts wrote:I like to actually SEE my dogs hunt and read their body language. That way I will know what they and the birds are doing, especially on running Pheasants so I at least have a chance on birds that have been highly educated by the 4-5 weeks of other hunters before I can get out west to hunt them. How boring and inefficient to hear your Astro beep and see that old Rover is on point 400+ yards to your left and you have no idea if all that ground was even covered by the dog. And all you can do is trudge over, scare off the birds the dog missed, and see if the birds are still there the 5, 10, 15 minutes it might take you to get there depending on the terrain. Read: Chukar country.

Not all of us live in big country. A dog that hunts grouse in my home coverts that ranges out to 200+ yards will often find itself through the covert and on private property and with some of the hill billys I know will be shot. Or run over by a car because the dog will be crossing the rural highway without me knowing it....and having no way to protect the dog.

Same with hunting at the club. A 200+ yard dog that goes on point close to the road and then the bird flushes and the dog chases is a dead dog on the highway. And yes...I don't believe in steady to wing and shot because a wild rooster that is wounded in NoDak or Kansas or Iowa needs that dog on it's hiner the instant it hits the ground or you have just killed a bird that you won't find in chest high grass and 30 mph winds. IMO.

Speaking of winds, a dog in PA hunting grouse will be well out of your whistle range in as little as 100 yards in a decent wind at times. In those mountains your dog is as good as lost in 5 minutes. Swell. Same goes for Milo stubble in Kansas. Just last year I had one dog at 530 yards and the other at 240 yards in opposite directions because they couldn't find me in all the noise the stubble was making. And in those conditions, especially in the mountains, your whistle will echo and you dog will actually run AWAY from you. Seen it many times.

Ever have a dog attacked by a deer? Chase a wounded bear? Get caught in barbed wire? Get caught in a trap? Porcupine? Where would you rather be? Within 150 yards or 400-600 away while your dog's life is in eminent danger??

That's why a long range dog to me is nothing short of a PIA and useless for my hunting style, in my humble but experienced opinion. Unless you are in the shortgrass prairie chasing Huns and Sharpies of course.

Three Britts raised some points which I would like to comment on, from my perspective, if I may...

First he expressed a desire to see his dog , more or less continuously, so that he could observe the dog's body language. That(IMO) is a valid reason for wanting to keep tabs on one's dog. It also speaks to the uncertainty factor that exists when running a dog. Some folks just are not comfortable with a dog that is out of sight, and that is that. Not much more needs to be said.

I do think that many of the scenarios he has come up with are somewhat extreme and overstated and calculated to justify his fear of losing, or losing touch with the dog.

However, I certainly know that bad stuff can happen in the blink of an eye. I do think some folks might be better served by a dog that has a reliable recall and that can be depended on to hold point until I flush the bird. A dog that chases birds that are flushed wild...will eventually get into trouble, just as a dog that chases deer will.

I personally have never had a dog attacked by a deer or a bear. I have had my dogs pull down and kill a wounded buck deer...right in front of me...and I could do nothing to stop it. I had a dog get hung up on barbed wire , at a field trial and most of his front shoulder was open. I carried him to the truck, washed it out and then got it stitched up. There happened to be a vet competing at the same trial, but I have a stapler in my dog box and would have used that. Again...stuff happens.

As far as winds are concerned, I used to hunt with a Lovett's beeper and on a normal day could hear that beeper an honest 400 yards away. On a windy day, it was always much less, but it would have to be howling before I couldn't hear it from 75 yards in cover and frankly, if it was THAT windy, I'm wasting my time birdhunting anyway. My hearing ain't as good as it once was, but I can still hear the Lovett's from a couple hundred yards in moderate cover. However, I do use GPS technology and find it VERY easy to use and handy to have. It ain't cheap, but then, I think it is worth the expense.

As I have said in the past, I spent most of my life hunting in New Jersey, which is arguably the most densely populated state in the union. It is absolutely crisscrossed with roads and the places to hunt are almost always on the small side and PACKED with other hunters. The coverts I hunted in were often of the 20-40 acre variety. The dogs had to learn to suck it in...and most of them did.

In close to sixty years of hunting...I ain't lost a dog permanently (yet) and the only dog I ever had hit by a car was hit in the street right in front of my house. Thankfully, the driver was going slow, slammed on their brakes and he just bounced off the car's tire and was not injured...but ...well, you know. Suff can happen.

I install a whoa command which means stop...do not move a toenail until I physically touch the dog. That has saved several dogs when thy were headed toward a roadway.

Three Britts should run and hunt his dogs the way he sees fit and is comfortable with. I have no problem with that at all. I would just like he and others to know that there are viable options.

RayG

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:22 am

If I notice a big chunk of land that hasn't been hunted I turn my body in that direction and walk towards it, then I watch the dog go to the front like it's suppose to do. If the dog doesn't go with you, you've failed in your training.... If the dog is busting birds, time to go back to training... If the dog accidently busts a bird, it stops to flush, that's why you teach STF. The issues you are bringing up can be addressed with proper training. It's not rocket science.

bustingcover · Post by **bustingcover** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:51 am

The reason I asked, wasn't to be an jerk but just to clarify where you were coming from. Again when I think of the comparison of "field trial dogs" vs "meat dogs" I'm not thinking about wild running dogs with their tails on fire, not hunting and busting birds. In the same way I'm not using my example of a "meat dog" as a dog that walks behind you, trips over birds, and chases flushes trying to catch the bird.

So in regards to your concerns considering the dog is a fully broke, true All Age dog:

If you like to see your dog then you like to see your dog. A big runner no matter how well trained is not what you like.

But with a well trained dog you will know what they are doing and how they are hunting. The dogs don't just run for the hills and don't look back. They are on the edge searching for birds and keying in with you making sure they know where you are. I don't think thats boring or inefficient but I also know that opinions rarely get changed on the internet. Do whats fun for you. But if you have an Astro indicating point you should not have to trudge blindly trying to find your dog scaring a mess of birds and not knowing what pattern he ran. As far as Chukar country, most guys I know out here want their dogs running when it comes to those birds.

As far as grouse cover and running into the next county, again thats not the kind of dog I'm speaking of. Plenty of untrained/green broke dogs do that who have never entered a trial in their lives. Smart dogs shorten up or range out depending on their cover. Most anyone who hunts their trial dogs will say the same thing. It's usually the dogs more on the wild side with no handle that are trouble.

I don't think I've ever really hunted in extreme winds where I couldn't hear and my dogs were disoriented. If they can't find me I don't see how they could find a bird so I'm not sure. But one thing is maybe your dogs would have had more of an easier time finding you if they had more experience hunting and keeping track of you from those type distances. Not a slight on how you hunt, again everybody hunts how they want.

The other stuff is really what any kind of hunter has to deal. I've never had a dog attacked by a deer, bear, or wolf. But If there is a po'd bear or wolf looking for a pound of flesh I most certainly want them as far away as possible lol. The dog can run faster than I could ever hope to. Barbed wire, porckies, etc is just a part of the game but a few hundred yards are not making a big difference. You will either hear your dog in distress, it will come back to you, or you will see that it has stopped moving on the Garmin.

I hear ya when you say a big running fully broke dog doesn't work for you because you like seeing your dogs work up close and you don't like them steady to wing and shot. Most of the other things aren't really FT dog specific though.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:33 pm

I, like Ray, have no problem with how anyone wants their dog to hunt, but it would be so much more informative to jut state what you like instead of telling us what you don't like. It seems when ever any of us do that we feel we have to exaggerate and it loses its effectiveness.

I have often thought that if you would just stay halfway between what the avid field trials likes in dogs and methods and what the avid foot hunter likes you would be in darn good shape and the more I read the more convinced I become.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:23 pm

I'm in the process of moving and all my books are boxed up so I'm going by memory now, but I remember reading a Bird Dog Training book written by Paul Long, written in the 40's or 50's, I believe. In the book Mr. Long states that hunters should steer clear of field trial dogs because they are often more dog than the "average" hunter can handle.

I believe that the "Hear say" that trial dogs are hard to handle gets handed down from generation to generation. But there maybe some merit to it. First you have to ask yourself what is the "average" person and then do you fit that description? In my opinion the "Average Person" does not want to purchase an E-Collar to control the dog. Nor, a locator collar, Nor do they want to purchase the services of a pro in order to flush birds in front of their dog. So that's my perspective

However, I'm a breeder of Gordon Setters and I have had 20 or so adult dogs throughout the years. Some of those dogs have been easily trained and others require a firmer hand then I would want to sell to my "average" buyer, who hunts a couple (less than 10) times a year. In those cases where I have purchased assistance from a Pro in training those dogs, those same trainers have offered to purchase them with the belief that they would make great trial dogs. The trainers like the ones that are "A lot of dog". (Maybe they like them because that's where their income comes from...) I hear that a lot from some folks (Folks who trial), I actually kind of like them too.

Watching one of those dogs that I consider "a lot of dog" in the field makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up with excitement, but then there are days I'm cussing that same dog. They say "The great ones are like that." (Great = Great trial dogs)

Some of the trial folks that I have come in contact with (I belong to a local dog club with many active trial people) like the alpha pups that would test the average person. For various reasons (because they are trialed and marketed, etc...) I also see where those dogs are the ones that get bred. Passing those alpha traits on to their prodigy. There's a subject that could be later expanded on...

Unless you're an experienced dog owner My general advise to the majority of puppy buyers is to NOT pick the alpha pup. I have given refunds due to folks picking the alpha pup that should not have.

It's also said in some circles of breeders it's good to have trial dogs in the pedigree, just not too close.

With that said, I believe hunting behind a big going hard charging bird dog that makes the hair on my neck stand up (Which is in my opinion what winning a trial requires) is an acquired taste, like shooting a fast handling SXS, drinking whiskey or sipping a bold cab. It takes a while (time spent) to reach that point, and for various reasons some folks never want to.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:53 pm

Good post Gordon Guy

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:46 pm

"Ever have a dog attacked by a deer? Chase a wounded bear? Get caught in barbed wire? Get caught in a trap? Porcupine? Where would you rather be? Within 150 yards or 400-600 away while your dog's life is in eminent danger?? " quote ThreeBrits

There are hazards at all levels of hunting. I had my dog attacked by a deer at 100 yards last year. I have a big running setter. 99.9 % of the time I know where she is and what she is up to.

Shellottome · Post by **Shellottome** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:20 pm

X 2 Sharon on the don't even know what they're into at times. Sometimes on the ranch they'll be gone for hour at a time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:52 pm

I guess my whole point(sorry) is that Ray got on here and said that those of us with short range dogs are "useless" and/or "Irrelevant". Well, I guess the 31 birds(phez and Quail) I brought home from Kansas, all on WIHA ground this year BTW, should just be thrown into the trash can then, huh? Oops,30 actually because I left one at the taxidermists. My youngest pups first wild Phez with 29 bars on the tail and nearly 1" spurs. Well, it's too late for that because two roosters and a few Quail have already been cooked and made into wild bird Paprikosh served over wide egg noodles.

I guess I should just retire my dogs,especially my 9 year old who pinched 3 Phez in one half day working downwind, between me and her that ended up in my vest. Not to mention the other cockbird that she pointed (and would have been my 4 bird limit)that flushed too low to shoot because I wasn't EXACTLY sure where she was when he took off. I guess I should have looked at my Astro screen while I had a tenth of a second to think about it. And then there were the 11 hens she pointed as well. Oh and two coveys of Bobs to boot. "bleep" stupid close ranging dog.

BTW...the third Phez I shot went down and immediately dove into a woodchuck(I'm guessing that's what it was) hole and died. Thank God she was right on the thing and dug it out because I doubt a dog steady to W&S would have ever found it. But what do I know after 39 years of chasing birds??

And yes...my oldest dog was attacked by a deer. She's the same one that went after a wounded bear in PA. And a HUGE porky in Michigan. Her daughter had something like 19 staples from barbed wire even tough she had a Cabelas vest on. I'm glad most of you don't have the worry of your dog getting hit by a car. I wish I had that luxury.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:29 am

Oh...and those of you who think my dogs aren't trained well, you are showing your ignorance of hunting a half section(or more) of 2' + tall milo stubble in a good wind. It's so noisy you can't hear the voices in your head if you have any.

And for those of you who haven't hunted in tall grass prairie, your dog will be out of sight in 5 yards, and can't hear your voice or whistle after 80-100 if that, at times in a normal wind. When it hits 30-40 MPH you are in a whole different realm of hunting with a dog. Believe me, I have plenty of experience not seeing my dogs at work. Those who that know what I'm talking about would know that.

I'm kinda shocked on the lack of experience in different kinds of bird covers on this forum. Well, at least those who know what I'm talking about haven't chimed in as of yet.

Maybe some of you need to leave your home covers and see some more of the country. Then you can make an educated comment on here on what range a good hunting dog should be at in different environs. Especially not harken back to how it was like in New Jersey 40 years ago.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:41 am

So, in the tall grass prairie your dog never gets more than 5 yards away from you?

The only thing I find shocking (well, actually I found it shocking 15 years ago on the internet but it doesn't really shock me anymore) is that there are folks like yourself who are so adamant that you are right in your opinion that dogs with some range are pretty much useless.

Hunt with the dogs that make you happy. But please, be honest with yourself and others about things. Other folks will hunt the same cover types that you do with dogs that work quite differently than you like or are comfortable with. Some folks will even hunt without any dogs at all. You, they and the others will all have success with shooting birds.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:36 am

Gordon Guy wrote:I'm in the process of moving and all my books are boxed up so I'm going by memory now, but I remember reading a Bird Dog Training book written by Paul Long, written in the 40's or 50's, I believe. In the book Mr. Long states that hunters should steer clear of field trial dogs because they are often more dog than the "average" hunter can handle.

I believe that the "Hear say" that trial dogs are hard to handle gets handed down from generation to generation. But there maybe some merit to it. First you have to ask yourself what is the "average" person and then do you fit that description? In my opinion the "Average Person" does not want to purchase an E-Collar to control the dog. Nor, a locator collar, Nor do they want to purchase the services of a pro in order to flush birds in front of their dog. So that's my perspective

However, I'm a breeder of Gordon Setters and I have had 20 or so adult dogs throughout the years. Some of those dogs have been easily trained and others require a firmer hand then I would want to sell to my "average" buyer, who hunts a couple (less than 10) times a year. In those cases where I have purchased assistance from a Pro in training those dogs, those same trainers have offered to purchase them with the belief that they would make great trial dogs. The trainers like the ones that are "A lot of dog". (Maybe they like them because that's where their income comes from...) I hear that a lot from some folks (Folks who trial), I actually kind of like them too. Watching one of those dogs that I consider "a lot of dog" in the field makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up with excitement, but then there are days I'm cussing that same dog. They say "The great ones are like that." (Great = Great trial dogs)

Some of the trial folks that I have come in contact with (I belong to a local dog club with many active trial people) like the alpha pups that would test the average person. For various reasons (because they are trialed and marketed, etc...) I also see where those dogs are the ones that get bred. Passing those alpha traits on to their prodigy. There's a subject that could be later expanded on...

Unless you're an experienced dog owner My general advise to the majority of puppy buyers is to NOT pick the alpha pup. I have given refunds due to folks picking the alpha pup that should not have.

It's also said in some circles of breeders it's good to have trial dogs in the pedigree, just not too close.

With that said, I believe hunting behind a big going hard charging bird dog that makes the hair on my neck stand up (Which is in my opinion what winning a trial requires) is an acquired taste, like shooting a fast handling SXS, drinking whiskey or sipping a bold cab. It takes a while (time spent) to reach that point, and for various reasons some folks never want to.

+1 Gordon Guy. As a breeder, myself hopefully you learn quick! I always did the picking of pups for companion dog hunter type homes.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:51 am

This thread had taken really a strange twist. Who the heck see's their dog's while they hunt? I certainly don't and it has nothing to do with them being field trial dog's which they are not. If I'm in the grouse woods, which is where I am most of the time becasue I live in grouse country, I never see the dog's unless they go rocketing across the road, one side to the other. On the prairies I hunt a lot of cattail so never see the dog. In heavy CRP I can't see the dog. I can't even imagine being able to see my dog's. Wheat stubble, there's one.

Nor do I walk along gazing at my Astro, which is probably my most valued training aid. It is in a holster next to my ear so I can hear the beep. When it beeps, I look which way the arrow is pointing, pick a landmark, check the distance, and walk it out. Plus, I know that I can always find my way back to my truck.

I hunt in heavily wolf infested country, carry a .45 and am cautious, but certainly don't obsess over it. Porkies are a way of life and rarely hurt the dog badly. I've had a dog attacked by a deer once in 60 years and that was last year in SD. The things some people worry about. Car's on logging roads I DO worry about.

RockyDD · Post by **RockyDD** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:27 am

As a casual hunter in thick cover that is not a field trial level trainer, I cannot use an FT stock dog.

Where I hunt, if a dog went out 300 yards and pointed and held,it would take me an hour to find him. I do not want to correct this issue with a gps.

I want a pointer that will point and hold the birds that I would otherwise walk past.

I like to see a dog on point.

I like to watch my dog hunt not figure out where he is.

I buy dogs that hunt close, are very co-operative and have a strong point so that my training is minimized and we both do what e like naturally. I would never hire someone else to train my dog.

My idea of a good hunt is never having to blow the whistle and seeing a lot of birds walking slowly and quietly..

I don't care if my dog retrieves to hand or drops the bird at my feet. I kind of like it if he is proud of his bird and prances around a little on the way back. I correct chewing and hiding.

I don't care about steady to shot. Let him get the wounded bird

I want a dog that is trained to my standards and not trial or test standards.

People need to realize that our dogs are for different sports. The breeder that breeds and trains very high prey dogs may not be doing the casual hunter/trainer any favprs. Same for the ones breeding high powered FT dogs. The western chukar hunter might be able to use an FT dog but the eastern grouse hunter needs an old fashioned, pre- ecollar close hunting dog that is easy to train. They are getting hard to find.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:08 am

Another misconception about field trial dog's is that they only hunt big. That simply is NOT true. If you're on foot, they shorten their range to match you. In the grouse woods that 3-400 yard prairies dog becomes a 100 yard grouse dog.
At least the good ones do and they do it without much training.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:44 am

ThreeBritts wrote:Oh...and those of you who think my dogs aren't trained well, you are showing your ignorance of hunting a half section(or more) of 2' + tall milo stubble in a good wind. It's so noisy you can't hear the voices in your head if you have any.

And for those of you who haven't hunted in tall grass prairie, your dog will be out of sight in 5 yards, and can't hear your voice or whistle after 80-100 if that, at times in a normal wind. When it hits 30-40 MPH you are in a whole different realm of hunting with a dog. Believe me, I have plenty of experience not seeing my dogs at work. Those who that know what I'm talking about would know that.

I'm kinda shocked on the lack of experience in different kinds of bird covers on this forum. Well, at least those who know what I'm talking about haven't chimed in as of yet.

Maybe some of you need to leave your home covers and see some more of the country. Then you can make an educated comment on here on what range a good hunting dog should be at in different environs. Especially not harken back to how it was like in New Jersey 40 years ago.

Amazing... I am always fascinated by someone of your self professed age who is so uncomfortable in their accomplishments and knowledge that are reduced to reacting with such a transparent inferiority complex. You placed "useless and irrelevant" in quotations as though Ray had directed those words at you, why would anyone care what you do with your dogs? This experience thing is interesting too, in your emotion you have eluded to out the number of dogs you have worked with over a lifetime, the evidence would suggest it isn't very many. I am afraid your circle in the dog world is much smaller than you might think and you would be well served to provide your opinion in much politer context and be more inclined to continue learning. Sometimes it seems 50 years of experience is 1 year 50 times.

There are many common things that come up when people make these arguments, range, steadiness, retrieving, et al. In most if not all, the very demonstrative have made opinions and only experienced half of the equations. For instance how many people do I engage that will insist that in their situation a dog that breaks on shot is superior to one that is steady until released; and when you explore the basis of the opinion you might find that they have never trained or handled a dog at said level? The answer has always been zero when I can get that far in the conversation. It amazes me that those of this ilk cannot see the irony in their arguments.

Bird hunters have a broad spectrum of metrics for their enjoyment and the value of their dogs. I generally find that they all love their dogs... thankfully, but the bird count handler generally hs a different focus than the dog behavior and performance handler...

MJB64 · Post by **MJB64** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:56 am

Chukar 12 said
"Sometimes it seems 50 years of experience is 1 year 50 times.."
This might be the best line that I have ever seen on this site

Mike

bustingcover · Post by **bustingcover** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:27 am

It seems like no matter how lightly you try to tread you will invariably step on some toes. I hope nobody took my responses as talking down to them or slighting their animals. I honestly could not care if or how you hunt but wish you the best and many fun times out chasing birds. I do think this topic is important for people who have not yet made up their minds about what FT dogs are or should be and hopefully some of the posts here have unraveled some of the myths that get regurgitated. There's really no reason to be afraid of a smart, well trained dog but people are going to like what they like.

Just keep in mind Field Trials are run across the country in different climates and covers, on many different birds. Cover dog trials are run in the grouse woods on wild grouse and woodcock. These same dogs are more often than not hunted over as frequently if not more often than an average hunter. Average hunters generally getting out 4-10 full days a season. These dogs get hunted and by and large don't run off and die a mile away, they usually make it home and then on to the next trial.

Enjoy your dogs for what they are, whatever level they're at.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:01 pm

bustingcover wrote:It seems like no matter how lightly you try to tread you will invariably step on some toes. I hope nobody took my responses as talking down to them or slighting their animals. I honestly could not care if or how you hunt but wish you the best and many fun times out chasing birds. I do think this topic is important for people who have not yet made up their minds about what FT dogs are or should be and hopefully some of the posts here have unraveled some of the myths that get regurgitated. There's really no reason to be afraid of a smart, well trained dog but people are going to like what they like.

Just keep in mind Field Trials are run across the country in different climates and covers, on many different birds. Cover dog trials are run in the grouse woods on wild grouse and woodcock. These same dogs are more often than not hunted over as frequently if not more often than an average hunter. Average hunters generally getting out 4-10 full days a season. These dogs get hunted and by and large don't run off and die a mile away, they usually make it home and then on to the next trial.

Enjoy your dogs for what they are, whatever level they're at.

\

Thank you bustingcover. All I wanted to do was stimulate conversation and bring out some of these diverse opinions and explore them, from different points of view. When you repeat something a hundred times, it doesn't matter whether it is true or false. After that much repetition, folks, including myself, start to believe that it must be true.

If someone gets all bent out of shape because someone else takes issue with how they choose to do something, well that is too bad.

What really sucks is when they have to "invent" things that a person never said and twist their comments all out of shape in order to disparage them and denigrate their opinion.

There are many different ways to get from here to there and what might be just right for one, might be all wrong for another...BUT in fact, both ways CAN and DO work. That is the reality.

Life is about options and different ways of getting from point A to point B.

Sorry if some can't see that, but that is THEIR problem.

RayG

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:45 pm

RockyDD wrote:As a casual hunter in thick cover that is not a field trial level trainer, I cannot use an FT stock dog.

Where I hunt, if a dog went out 300 yards and pointed and held,it would take me an hour to find him. I do not want to correct this issue with a gps.

I want a pointer that will point and hold the birds that I would otherwise walk past.

I like to see a dog on point.

I like to watch my dog hunt not figure out where he is.

I buy dogs that hunt close, are very co-operative and have a strong point so that my training is minimized and we both do what e like naturally. I would never hire someone else to train my dog.

My idea of a good hunt is never having to blow the whistle and seeing a lot of birds walking slowly and quietly..

I don't care if my dog retrieves to hand or drops the bird at my feet. I kind of like it if he is proud of his bird and prances around a little on the way back. I correct chewing and hiding.

I don't care about steady to shot. Let him get the wounded bird

I want a dog that is trained to my standards and not trial or test standards.

People need to realize that our dogs are for different sports. The breeder that breeds and trains very high prey dogs may not be doing the casual hunter/trainer any favprs. Same for the ones breeding high powered FT dogs. The western chukar hunter might be able to use an FT dog but the eastern grouse hunter needs an old fashioned, pre- ecollar close hunting dog that is easy to train. They are getting hard to find.

Rocky-

I think I would enjoy hunting over your dogs, just as much as you obviously do. I get a great deal of pleasure hunting over a dog that I trained from a puppy. I wouldn't have it any other way, either. If I had a problem that I couldn't not fix, I would not hesitate to get help, but that is just me.

The only thing I would ask you to do... is to think about your very first statement. Here's why:

FT stock is a VERY wide brush to paint with. There is everything from All Age horseback trials to grouse and woodcock, and other walking field trials, and everything in between. Even more important is the fact that, in every litter, even from the most selectively bred litters...there is a range of abilities, a range of tendencies and a range of temperaments. Very often only one or two pups out of a litter have what it takes to be a successful trial dog. The rest of the litter might be wonderful dogs,but just...a notch below, in intensity.

An all age bred litter would almost certainly yield puppies that have waaaay more of a tendency to range out than you will find useful for the way you hunt. That is pretty much a given. One could probably say the same thing about most pups from horseback shooting dog parents.

However, if the parents of a litter were both successful Grouse or woodcock field trial dogs, or USCSDA or NBHA dogs, their pups will probably have a VERY different mix of skills, with a much higher incidence of pups that want to stay in contact.

There is an old, but very true saying in field trials. it goes like this: "You can win with any kind of dog, except a lost one." Dogs that win in walking stakes HAVE to adjust their pattern and range to the walking handler...or they will be gone and lost. They HAVE to come back and keep tabs on their handler, which means they have to WANT to do that. If a dog WANTS to do something, it is bred into them. Biddability and cooperativeness is FAR more important for the walking dog than range.

Now remember what I said about the range of abilities and temperaments in a litter. A puppy that is bred to have a high degree of biddability and cooperativeness, bred to hunt for a walking handler, but is more interested in climbing up on YOUR lap and licking YOUR face because it likes you and wants to be with you...might not be such a bad choice.

Just some food for thought. Options.

RayG

mask · Post by **mask** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:08 pm

I must be reading this a little different than some or at least a couple. Ray ask a good question with no rancor that I can detect. Most pointing breeds today are from some sort of FT lines. The question ask did not specify AA dogs. The type of dog three brits describes would not work for me so I have a totally different type. It is not that my dogs are the best there is it is just that they are best for me. if some want a pointing dog that stays in gun range so be it. Good question and some good objective answers.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:05 pm

Excellent post Ray. Misunderstanding often arises because folks don't know what "field trial" bred can mean.
Can't image a hunter who wants a closer working dog not being very happy with a dog from a Cover Dog field trial breeding.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:21 pm

Sharon wrote:Excellent post Ray. Misunderstanding often arises because folks don't know what "field trial" bred can mean.
Can't image a hunter who wants a closer working dog not being very happy with a dog from a Cover Dog field trial breeding.

Sharon -

That is EXACTLY why I wanted folks to speak up and speak out.

The field trial dogs of today are, for the most part, a whole different animal than those of the fifties and sixties. Even the all age dogs gotta handle because the grounds they have to run on are often soooo much tighter. There are still expansive venues, especially out West but in many areas of across much of the country, The grounds are shrinking.

Years back there was no such thing as USCSDA or NBHA or ABHA all of which sponsor walking stakes. Pretty much the only walking stakes were the grouse trials and the ones that local clubs put on to attract hunters. Sure the AFTCA sanctioned a walking championship in each region and a national Walking Ch., but it was(and still is) small potatoes. All too often a regional Ch. was not run due to lack of interest and when they did run, they usually lost money.

Today, the hunter has a much wider variety of really good dogs and bloodlines to choose from. At least I think so. Options.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:30 pm

That is exactly what I was saying my experience has been. One thing we should get away from is talking about field trial breeding and get back to breeding hunting dogs, some of which will be good at certain trials but all will hunt.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:38 pm

ezzy333 wrote:That is exactly what I was saying my experience has been. One thing we should get away from is talking about field trial breeding and get back to breeding hunting dogs, some of which will be good at certain trials but all will hunt.

There are dogs bred for field trails that don't hunt? That is a new one to me.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:00 pm

My current dog going on 4 yr old runs big when in big open country. Stays close when hunting lava ridges and close when we hit a covey. She will check back in when in heavy cover with scent nearby. We run 7 miles with a quad in training. Last season she found and held 5 birds on 65 acres in 15 minutes in NSTRA. They were spaced out in each corner of the field. I was flat out trying to keep up at 74. I am an amature trainer and lifetime hunter. This same dog is a lap dog in the house. Never had a dog with this much drive and love her. Came out of Champion stock. I would never think of buying an average back yard dog again.

RockyDD · Post by **RockyDD** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:37 am

Oldbeek- Your 15 minutes with four birds over 65 acres with a judge watching is your idea of a good time but to me it is more like a nightmare. I prefer four hours over 65 acres with just me and the dog and four birds. That is what I meant when I said we are using dogs for some very different sports and you have to be very careful that you don't get a dog bred for the wrong sport. If I bought a son out of your dog the chances are I would not be very happy with him. I just bought a new puppy and had to work very hard to find him. Try asking a breeder if he has any laid back, detuned close working, co0perative dogs. Several said that they didn,t have any and if they did they wouldn't admit it. I finally found a breeder that thinks the same way I do and I have the best dog I ever owned by my way of thinking.

I realize I am in the minority and that dogs are doing amazing things these days as you described. I think that dog performance has been advanced tremendously by trials and testing and I am all for it. I also think that there are a lot of Ferraris out there when I prefer the F150 and you need to find the right dealer.

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:56 am

Sharon wrote:
AAA Gundogs wrote:
If you've found this board, you're ahead of 50% of other guys.

Do you have a reliable recall? If so, you're ahead of 75% of other guys.

Does the dog hold point and not race you to flush? If so, you're ahead of 90% of dogs.
Well said!

I have never heard this before and since Sharon & AAA agree on this statement.~ I am not and do not want to come across as argumentative but rather where do these percentages come from ? This just doesn't make any sense to me. I am not a trial guy nor am I going to speak in a negative manor of trial guys. This statement has haunted me for days . I guess if there was any truth to these percentages I have one heck of a bird dog. Here where I hunt a closer working dog works the best. I may make a pass through a 2 acre patch with highway on two sides and a dog hater on the other. That dog better come when I call. Look at 100yrds in the prairie and then see what 100 yrds looks like where we hunt. 300 feet in what we look at.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:51 am

Max, I don't agree with the part about 90% of all dog's not holding point, but I think they're spot on with the rest. I actually think they may be high on the reliable recall rate. Truthfully, the only dog's I've seen with a great recall were electric collar dog's.

I hunt in country identical to yours and my dog's are 100 yard (300') dog's in the woods. On the prairie they open up to 200 yards. Why do you have to see them? I rarely do. I just take a bearing with my Astro when they go on point and then go in and flush the bird. Whether I'm hunting woods, cattail, or heavy CRP, I don't see much of the dog's.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:08 am

Max2 -

I also agree that the pointing percentage is not at all what I have seen in the field over the years. I hunted state grounds for a whole lot of years and saw quite a few dogs in the field. I also belonged to several different clubs and saw members dogs working. Most would hold a point pretty well. And that was looong before I got involved with trials.

I always felt this way: If a pointing dog does not hold point for as long as it takes the hunter to get there, of what use are they? I don't need a long range flusher. I'm pretty sure that most folks feel the same way.

Hey, we all know that sometimes the birds don't cooperate and sometimes the dogs take liberties, but, for the most part pointing dogs should point...at least until you get to them. If the bird gets up on its own...well stuff happens and if the dog gives chase, that ain't the worst thing in the world. But if the dog stops on scent and then goes in and takes the bird out, or just flat out runs the bird up... I think that ain't gonna work for most hunters.

I tend to agree with gonehuntin' on the other points though.

RayG

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:23 am

ThreeBritts wrote:Oh...and those of you who think my dogs aren't trained well, you are showing your ignorance of hunting a half section(or more) of 2' + tall milo stubble in a good wind. It's so noisy you can't hear the voices in your head if you have any.

And for those of you who haven't hunted in tall grass prairie, your dog will be out of sight in 5 yards, and can't hear your voice or whistle after 80-100 if that, at times in a normal wind. When it hits 30-40 MPH you are in a whole different realm of hunting with a dog. Believe me, I have plenty of experience not seeing my dogs at work. Those who that know what I'm talking about would know that.

I hunt that sort of terrain on a regular basis. Here in Kansas. I know of the winds, the milo stalks and the tall CRP. I've been in stuff taller then me, and I stand 6'5. It doesn't matter if your dog is 500 yards or 5 yards. You aren't seeing them in that type of cover.

But I'll take a trial dog every time. I love not having to cover every square inch knowing my dog will do that for me.

One thing that really hasn't been discussed, is that in some breeds, it is absolutely necessary to go to a breeder with trial backgrounds to ensure that the dog even has hunt in them. For example, in my breed, I personally feel that it's necessary to go to a breeder with a trial background even if you don't want to trial, or want a trial type of dog, simply to ensure a quality hunting dog. Being in rescue, I see all sorts of dogs in my breed that wouldn't even make a serviceable hunting dog. Zero desire for birds, or drive. So, to ensure that a dog has that drive, I would highly recommend a trial type of background for the litter.

I guess it all depends on what you want out of your dog. As long as it makes you happy, who cares?

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:40 am

RayGubernat wrote: But if the dog stops on scent and then goes in and takes the bird out, or just flat out runs the bird up... I think that ain't gonna work for most hunters.

RayG

Which leads most hunters to call for a "close working" dog that doesn't get out of gun range, rather than a pointing dog that actually points. For the most part I think many hunters have convinced themsleves that it is not possible for a dog to point and birds to stay there. They simply don't believe it can happen. So they chase their dog, run to flash points and hack the dog in closer, all the while being aggravated and cursing "field trial dogs".
I find it much more relaxing to hunt behind a competitive field trial dog. You can go where you want, walk, run or sit as much as you want. Just relax and enjoy the day. The dog will hunt. And he will hunt some more. And when he finds some birds you walk over to where he is pointing and shoot at them.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:08 am

My old dog is great on the prairies, at running to objectives, not just hunting a pattern. We may crest a hill and 2-300 yards out, see a pothole of patch of wooded cover. The old dog will take off for that and hunt it while we sit and watch, which gives us nice breaks. My friend calls her "An Old Man's Dog" because she saves us so much walking.

In the grouse woods she shortens to 100 yards or less and hunts a pattern from one side of the skid roads to the other. More or less.

MNTonester · Post by **MNTonester** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:34 pm

I would venture to guess that those of us who have no idea how to handle a pointer, much less a big running pointer would not do the dog justice as to its nature and abilities. I have owned a spaniel and lab for said reasons. I'm guessing if I ever had the privilege or opportunity to hunt with someone who owned a well-trained pointer, my perspective would change dramatically.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:31 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Another misconception about field trial dog's is that they only hunt big. That simply is NOT true. If you're on foot, they shorten their range to match you. In the grouse woods that 3-400 yard prairies dog becomes a 100 yard grouse dog.
At least the good ones do and they do it without much training.

This is exactly right, though I'll grant you it depends on the individual dog and how you keep them. If you keep a pure kennel dog and only trial him, he'll likely do what he wants. But my FCs are house dogs. Gonehuntin' is correct.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:41 pm

Ray started this post with nothing more than what those in the know call, "trolling". Just like he used to do on PDJ. Gumboat.

His total intent was to get someone like me to bite and take him to task. I noticed how no one here...even Ezzy, who is known to run this place with an iron fist...never commented on me bringing a bunch of birds home from Kansas with my so called "irrelevant dogs". Ezzy should have nipped this in the bud right off the bat like he used to do. Who in their right mind lets someone rag on a guys dogs for the fun of it??

You are nothing but an embarrassing bunch of dog bigots. Well, not all of you. MAX2 knows what I'm talking about. I forgive Mack.

And BTW...I own a AA/trial dog. Bred to/by THE 32 x NSTRA dog. She's from Arizona. It is her grandfather and uncle.....and she hunts close because that's what I want out of her and what works for me. 16 HOF dogs in her Ped. Take a guess who I got her from?

Take a guess who I am.

I gave you several hints.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:12 am

And for those of you who think your dog points EVERY bird in a field it encounters...you apparently haven't read the data from the studies done with radio collared Bobs. Even the best dogs miss nearly 40% of the coveys/birds in the field.

And Slistoe..I know you as well. My dogs can hold a bird as long as it takes. Thing is...the birds often don't cooperate...especially when they have seen a bunch of pressure. I'm sure you know that right?

Grouse run. Woodcock are running more and more as well. Quail are doing the same thing.....I've literally seen them run onto private ground in front of my dogs. Phez...well we all know what they do. How far do you want to be from them? Especailly after you drove 1,100 miles to hunt??

Do you guys treat all so called new fellows with such disdain on this BB?

It's embarrassing.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:13 am

RockyDD wrote:Oldbeek- Your 15 minutes with four birds over 65 acres with a judge watching is your idea of a good time but to me it is more like a nightmare. I prefer four hours over 65 acres with just me and the dog and four birds. That is what I meant when I said we are using dogs for some very different sports and you have to be very careful that you don't get a dog bred for the wrong sport. If I bought a son out of your dog the chances are I would not be very happy with him. I just bought a new puppy and had to work very hard to find him. Try asking a breeder if he has any laid back, detuned close working, co0perative dogs. Several said that they didn,t have any and if they did they wouldn't admit it. I finally found a breeder that thinks the same way I do and I have the best dog I ever owned by my way of thinking.

I realize I am in the minority and that dogs are doing amazing things these days as you described. I think that dog performance has been advanced tremendously by trials and testing and I am all for it. I also think that there are a lot of Ferraris out there when I prefer the F150 and you need to find the right dealer.

You missed the part where i said she works close when into the birds. Took my 2 grandsons quail hunting last year and we worked one large covey over about 100 acres for 6 hours. The dog was never over 30 yards away from us after she made the initial find. It was an amazing day.
This year i took her to Nevada and hunted some lava ridges loaded with Chuckar. She realized on her own that at my age i was not able to scale those cliffs like she could. Soon she would move a little then check back to see how i was doing. That kind of smarts does not come with every dog. That kind of smarts is what makes a champion.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:18 am

Oldbeek...thank you. We are on the same page. And you run the best dogs ever Britts!!

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:22 am

ThreeBritts wrote:Ray started this post with nothing more than what those in the know call, "trolling". Just like he used to do on PDJ. Gumboat.

His total intent was to get someone like me to bite and take him to task. I noticed how no one here...even Ezzy, who is known to run this place with an iron fist...never commented on me bringing a bunch of birds home from Kansas with my so called "irrelevant dogs". Ezzy should have nipped this in the bud right off the bat like he used to do. Who in their right mind lets someone rag on a guys dogs for the fun of it??

You are nothing but an embarrassing bunch of dog bigots. Well, not all of you. MAX2 knows what I'm talking about.

And BTW...I own a AA/trial dog. Bred to/by THE 32 x NSTRA dog. She's from Arizona. It is her grandfather and uncle.....and she hunts close because that's what I want out of her and what works for me. 16 HOF dogs in her Ped. Take a guess who I got her from?

Take a guess who I am.

I gave you several hints.

Seems to me that you are the one who came to the thread with an attitude.

Enjoy hunting your dogs how you like to hunt them - but be honest with yourself. Many, many folks hunt the type of dog you came on here to ridicule, and they hunt them effectively. Simply saying "I enjoy watching my dog work" is justification enough for me. I get that.

ThreeBritts · Post by **ThreeBritts** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:26 am

No...my attitude came from Ray saying dogs that hunt close are Irrelevant and useless. Read his first posts.....

What more does it take to P**ss a guy off??

And I didn't really ridicule them as much as you guys did mine(aren't trained, can't hold a point). I just more or less said I don't want what they offer. AND...I own one that is fitting my style of hunting swimmingly.