Are bird hunters afraid of field trial dogs?

[slistoe]

And for those of you who think your dog points EVERY bird in a field it encounters...you apparently haven't read the data from the studies done with radio collared Bobs. Even the best dogs miss nearly 40% of the coveys/birds in the field.

Aren't you the one that was complaining about having to walk to the distant dog past all the birds it missed? The insinuation being that the closer working dog would not have gone past all those birds? Just because your dog stays close does not mean it finds all those birds - the study statistics apply just the same.

[slistoe]

No...my attitude came from Ray saying dogs that hunt close are Irrelevant and useless.

What more does it take to P**ss a guy off??

Well, technically he didn't say irrelevant AND useless, just irrelevant.
While I wouldn't go so far as that, for me personally a pointing dog that never works further than 25 yards out is rather pointless - I would see more value in a flushing dog at those ranges. It would open up some different opportunities to work cover types that are not suited to pointing dogs without giving up the advantage of a dogs nose in normal covers.

[ThreeBritts]

Umm.....here is the exact quote:

I personally have no idea why. I always thought that if a pointing dog never got out beyond gun range, they were pretty much useless...well maybe not useless, but certainly irrelevant. If I have to walk there anyway...why feed a dog to go find birds I was going to walk up anyhow? I do understand the reasons why it is prudent to have a flushing dog within gun range most of the time, but not a pointing dog.

What part of "Useless" do I need to explain to you?

[ThreeBritts]

He meant what he said and said what he meant...and as an after thought.... scaled it back. Useless and Irrelevant are pretty much synonyms.

And BTW...we both know Ray wasn't talking about dogs that don't get out to just 25 yards.....

[slistoe]

So why do you hunt with a pointing dog and not a flusher?

[ThreeBritts]

Why the need to change the subject?

[slistoe]

That is the subject.

You keep editing. I am not sure what you figure gun range is, but birds getting up and going away from 25 yards out is pretty much the limit of gun range. But I have seen some pretty good 28 yard handicappers on the trap range, so perhaps I will concede the next 3 yards.

As for synonyms....not really.

Inside gun range the act of pointing on the part of the hunting dog could be considered useless and is probably irrelevant. Just have the dog flush the birds and shoot them.

So why do you hunt with pointing dogs and not flushers?

[ThreeBritts]

Anyway...have a good night.

I have a big day of doing absolutely nothing tomorrow. Well, other than picking up my truck from the shop.

[ThreeBritts]

That is the subject.

According to you. Which is the entire problem with this thread. You/Ray think a 50-100 yard dog is irrelevant and useless. And when a guy disagrees with proven dogs...you cut on us both because it makes you feel better about yourself.

Reminds me of liberal snowflakes.

Anyway....Again. Goodnight.

[slistoe]

That is the subject.

According to you. Which is the entire problem with this thread. You/Ray think a 50-100 yard dog is irrelevant and useless. And when a guy disagrees with proven dogs...you cut on us both because it makes you feel better about yourself.

Reminds me of liberal snowflakes.

Anyway....Again. Goodnight.

Hey, I am not cutting on you at all. But if you think 50-100 yards is inside gun range....????

As for liberal snowflakes - who is the one that came through the door swinging with both arms and then cried butthurt?

There is no one that has said you can't shoot a boatload of birds with any particular brand of dog. Heck, some guys shoot a boatload of birds with no dog. The question was why have a pointing dog and hunt with it in flushing dog range at all times? Why not just hunt with a flushing dog?

[bustingcover]

Ray started this post with nothing more than what those in the know call, "trolling". Just like he used to do on PDJ. Gumboat.

His total intent was to get someone like me to bite and take him to task. I noticed how no one here...even Ezzy, who is known to run this place with an iron fist...never commented on me bringing a bunch of birds home from Kansas with my so called "irrelevant dogs". Ezzy should have nipped this in the bud right off the bat like he used to do. Who in their right mind lets someone rag on a guys dogs for the fun of it??

You are nothing but an embarrassing bunch of dog bigots. Well, not all of you. MAX2 knows what I'm talking about. I forgive Mack.

And BTW...I own a AA/trial dog. Bred to/by THE 32 x NSTRA dog. She's from Arizona. It is her grandfather and uncle.....and she hunts close because that's what I want out of her and what works for me. 16 HOF dogs in her Ped. Take a guess who I got her from?

Take a guess who I am.

I gave you several hints.

You own an All Age trial dog that hunts with you and doesn't run off when hunting on foot? How does she do in trials? I think this is a big point some of us were trying to make is that you can in fact hunt over a field trial dog and it won't just run off for a mile and blow up birds. Heres an example of a trial dog showing handle and adjusting to the cover.

[jetjockey]

Not to burst your bubble, but having a dog out of Buddy does NOT mean you own an AA trial dog. Buddy threw nice dogs, but he was not known for throwing AA dogs unless there is a lot more mixed in.

[Max2]

. Why do you have to see them? I rarely do. I just take a bearing with my Astro when they go on point and then go in and flush the bird. Whether I'm hunting woods, cattail, or heavy CRP, I don't see much of the dog's.

I do use and e~collar 50% of the time. It is more of a security blanket for me. I rarely have to use it. & never with the juice when I do. Vibrate is enough of a nudge. I don't use a tracking collar. Just a bell. If max is out three hundred ft away in tangles and whips on point and the bell stops by the time I get to him that NY grouse may be gone after hearing me come through the woods . Max can hold him. I could tell stories about points max has been on for 20 mn or better because I couldn't find him. But folks will claim B~S Honestly I could care less. This is the inter-web Folks who take this stuff to serious or personally ~ really shouldn't. There should be a disclaimer on all these sites : For entertainment purposes only Even I sometimes get caught up in these posts. Such as the percentages posted previously . I was bite'n

End of the day Max & I have always had fun

[gonehuntin']

I don't use a tracking collar. Just a bell. If max is out three hundred ft away in tangles and whips on point and the bell stops by the time I get to him that NY grouse may be gone after hearing me come through the woods .

Which is why I run an Astro. I WISH I could remember who said it, because it's a great quote, but on another board when we were discussing bells, beepers and Astro's a member said " A bell quits when you need it the most". That is the clearest explanation of why I run an Astro. You're right, when a dog, especially a little older trained dog wears an ecollar, it's a security blanket and a safety aid for the trainer. My old dog may have it used once every two years as a reminder, but I DO use the tone to occasionally quietly control her, especially on pheasant.

[RayGubernat]

Three Britts -

I just looked back on this thread. I will take a moment to clarify my position. That seems to be in order.

I said a pointing dog that does not get out beyond gun range is ...

"well maybe not useless but certainly irrelevant."

That was and still is my opinion.

I do indeed stand by that statement. It was indeed meant to stimulate discussion, but just so you and others understand my meaning clearly...

To me, gun range is NOT 50 yards. I hunt with a 20 gauge with Improved Cylinder or Skeet choke and my typical shot, over a point is around twenty yards. I very rarely take a shot over thirty yards and almost never at over 40 yards. You seem to have been confused by my statement, so I wanted to be quite specific.

If a hunter does not want their pointing dog not ranging out past gun range and I do mean 25-30 yards...I will reiterate the rhetorical question... what does a hunter need a pointing dog for? Any bird the dog finds could very easily be pushed up by the hunter, walking slowly and erratically through the cover. Been there...did that. Others have said...would not that hunter be better served with a flushing dog? That would be a viable option, In my opinion, and is a good question. Food for thought?

To me the question ultimately becomes: Why in the world would anyone strive to breed a 25 - 30 yd. pointing dog?

A dog that ranges out 50 - 100 yards , in thin cover might also be rather irrelevant. But in thick cover, like fir, with blowdowns such as one may find in the Appalachins of upstate NY, 50-100 yards is probably the limit of the range I personally would want to see. That is because getting to a dog that is 100 yards off, into the forest can take forever, considering all the obstacles including downed, mature(1-3 ft. diameter) trees, that one often has to go under, over or around.

Then, ... if there are skittish wild birds, it begs the question...Would not it be better even to have NO dog at all, or perhaps a retriever, at heel, to recover wounded game, because walking within 25 or 30 yards of such birds will cause them to either fly or run?

Just sayin'.

Once again...hunt with what floats your boat. But I am all about having options. To me a pointing dog that does not get out beyond my gun range of 25- 30 yards would severely limits my options and would force me to cover a whole lot more ground, on foot, that I would otherwise.

I like looking at things from all different perspectives and points of view. I enjoy a friendly and informative discussion. I try not to take things too personally because that tends to put up walls.

RayG

PS - I just noticed your reference to a 32X NSTRA champion as and ALL AGE dog. I assume you meant Nolan's Last Bullet whose call name was, I believe, Buddy. I am sure He was an awesome bird dog in many ways. I never saw him run and cannot recall seeing any of his progenyat AKC or AF trials in my area. Nolan's Last Bullet was an amazing NSTRA dog but there is absolutely no way I would call any NSTRA dog an All Age dog. That would be like calling my Tennesse Walker a thoroughbred racehorse.

[greg jacobs]

Pointerdog aka moonshine ike. Started all this by insulting the field trial people, asking if they were afraid of wild birds. I was pretty sure it was all going to go south. It did.
Ray retaliated with, are people afraid of FT dogs. It was sure to go south as well. And it did.
If everyone could have kept it to what they liked and why, it could have stayed a productive topic. I was pretty sure it wouldn't. It didn't.
Thanks much pointerdog. (That's sarcasm for anyone that didn't catch it)
These subjects are really interesting subjects. However people start taking it and making it way too personal.

[Elkhunter]

You can kill lots of birds with a 100 yard dog. You can kill lots of birds with a 400 yard dog. All about personal preference.

I have owned both, and one is not any better than the other. Sometimes I wished my dogs ran a little closer!

[gonehuntin']

The most effective pair of dogs I ever ran were two setters. One combed the horizon at 300-400 yards, the other stayed at 80-100. Between the two, we didn't miss many birds. They were the, in my opinion, perfect one-two punch.

[slistoe]

You can kill lots of birds with a 100 yard dog. You can kill lots of birds with a 400 yard dog. All about personal preference.

I have owned both, and one is not any better than the other. Sometimes I wished my dogs ran a little closer!

But this post isn't about a 100 yard dog.

[greg jacobs]

That sounds like the perfect pair for me. I've got a 100 to 400yd dog and a 300 to 1000yd dog. I am less comfortable when my dogs change my alpha to miles instead of yds which happens at .5 miles.

[greg jacobs]

You can kill lots of birds with a 100 yard dog. You can kill lots of birds with a 400 yard dog. All about personal preference.

I have owned both, and one is not any better than the other. Sometimes I wished my dogs ran a little closer!

But this post isn't about a 100 yard dog.

Not quite sure what this topic is about anymore. Preference of range maybe. Or whether a person wants to use a dog who's natural range is somewhere between 200 and 2000yds. Nothing in the topic said AA dogs.

[slistoe]

You can kill lots of birds with a 100 yard dog. You can kill lots of birds with a 400 yard dog. All about personal preference.

I have owned both, and one is not any better than the other. Sometimes I wished my dogs ran a little closer!

But this post isn't about a 100 yard dog.

Not quite sure what this topic is about anymore.

It always was about keeping a pointing dog under the gun - always well inside of 30 yards.

[greg jacobs]

No. It was about whether people are comfortable owning FT dogs which is a real gray area when you don't define FT dogs better. I believe the 25 yd comment was sarcasm. Don't remember anyone saying they wanted there pointing dogs working inside 25yds. I might be wrong. I haven't followed it that close since it got ugly.

[Robbw]

Here in Massachusetts, most of the fields I hunt in are tiny, and the woods/brush around them are thick. My Kansas-bred Brittany was a big running beast when I rescued her but she was and is an excellent bird dog. She has gotten a bit closer working at 11 years old, and she does and has always done a nice job holding birds at 100 yards or so. My take is that the terrain that I hunt isn't really conducive to the big running characteristics of the field trial dogs that i know. I'm a foot hunter in a part of the country where the hunting areas are fairly compact so I want a compact pointer who is close working, within 100 yards. My next pup will probably be a French Brittany from a breeder who has developed the characteristics I'm looking for.

[RayGubernat]

Here in Massachusetts, most of the fields I hunt in are tiny, and the woods/brush around them are thick. My Kansas-bred Brittany was a big running beast when I rescued her but she was and is an excellent bird dog. She has gotten a bit closer working at 11 years old, and she does and has always done a nice job holding birds at 100 yards or so. My take is that the terrain that I hunt isn't really conducive to the big running characteristics of the field trial dogs that i know. I'm a foot hunter in a part of the country where the hunting areas are fairly compact so I want a compact pointer who is close working, within 100 yards. My next pup will probably be a French Brittany from a breeder who has developed the characteristics I'm looking for.

Robbw -

I have never seen a French Britt work but it sounds like that is something I need to see. I simply do not know enough about the breed. What you are planning to do seems to make a great deal of sense in your circumstance. I would say that might be a very reasonable option for other folks in your situation.

Thank you for sharing.

RayG

[bustingcover]

No. It was about whether people are comfortable owning FT dogs which is a real gray area when you don't define FT dogs better. I believe the 25 yd comment was sarcasm. Don't remember anyone saying they wanted there pointing dogs working inside 25yds. I might be wrong. I haven't followed it that close since it got ugly.

I feel like the biggest issue here was miscommunication. Both with things not being defined well (such as FT dog or gun range) and people reading more into comments that were there and taking it personally.

The problem with just saying field trial dog is what kind of field trial dog? A first year dog running puppy stakes is a field trial dog. Now since the original topic was essentially the fear of field trial dogs vs casual close running dogs I figured it was only obvious to discuss AA dogs as these are generally the peak example of dog training and handle.

The 25 yard comment was later brought up by the OP to better define what he meant by "inside gun range".

When discussing dogs it's rarely ever going to remain pretty. People get wildly offensive when they think you're bad mouthing their animals. Say whatever you want about their wife, kids, house, or car but don't you dare criticize their dogs.

[slistoe]

No. It was about whether people are comfortable owning FT dogs which is a real gray area when you don't define FT dogs better. I believe the 25 yd comment was sarcasm. Don't remember anyone saying they wanted there pointing dogs working inside 25yds. I might be wrong. I haven't followed it that close since it got ugly.

If you followed it from the opening post then how would you think it was any different - inside gun range is the only thing mentioned in the OP. With all the other silliness going on from there I thought putting a number on it was prudent.

[greg jacobs]

No. It was about whether people are comfortable owning FT dogs which is a real gray area when you don't define FT dogs better. I believe the 25 yd comment was sarcasm. Don't remember anyone saying they wanted there pointing dogs working inside 25yds. I might be wrong. I haven't followed it that close since it got ugly.

If you followed it from the opening post then how would you think it was any different - inside gun range is the only thing mentioned in the OP. With all the other silliness going on from there I thought putting a number on it was prudent.

Went back and read it
You are absolutely right,

[Max2]

You know folks I got hooked into this thread with the percentage question. To put it back on track & To answer the o/p
No ~ bird hunters ( in my case anyway) are not afraid of field trial dogs. Max's brothers & sisters were big in the field trial world. When I was introduced to bird dogs by a friend. I asked him how do I start and he replied if your serious I will hook you up with a breeder of top GSP's . The rest is history and Max has lived a great life ! & I also because of him .

[Shellottome]

You cannot tell the depth of the well by the length of the handle on the pump.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RyanDoolittle]

You can kill lots of birds with a 100 yard dog. You can kill lots of birds with a 400 yard dog. All about personal preference.

I have owned both, and one is not any better than the other. Sometimes I wished my dogs ran a little closer!

But I have to do alot less walking with my 400 yard dog than with my 100 yard dog

[gonehuntin']

When I was still professionally training, the BIGGEST concern of people bringing pointing dog's to our kennel was that they could handle them. Many of these people were just people; they were not strict disciplinarians, they didn't live to hunt, they didn't train 12 months a year. They were, what I would classify, the average Hunter. YES, that person was afraid that a field trial dog would run away. So to sum this threads up, I would say that MOST bird hunters are afraid to own a field trial dog and from my perspective, justifiably so because they simply don't keep the training up.

[ezzy333]

When I was still professionally training, the BIGGEST concern of people bringing pointing dog's to our kennel was that they could handle them. Many of these people were just people; they were not strict disciplinarians, they didn't live to hunt, they didn't train 12 months a year. They were, what I would classify, the average Hunter. YES, that person was afraid that a field trial dog would run away. So to sum this threads up, I would say that MOST bird hunters are afraid to own a field trial dog and from my perspective, justifiably so because they simply don't keep the training up.

Absolutely right. Most people do not want to train there family pet everyday.

[Garrison]

I think this division that gets highlighted and rehashed over and over again has much less to do with a dogs pedigree and much more to do with field trials themself. The cost and time to play is prohibitive to the overwhelming majority of folks. I sure wish I had the time and expendable income to have a nice rig that I could haul horses and dogs across the country in and the know how and support to have a competitive dog, it sounds like a really fun hobby. I also wish that I could send my dog to a pro trainer and get some issues ironed out that I haven't been able to. With work, kids and a ton of other priorities it's just not in the cards for me. I'm ok with that, I am ok with how my dog performs. I enjoy getting out and hunting with him, I enjoy getting out and running him after work. He would never be competitive in trials, nor do I feel the need for him to be trained and tested on his duck search and blind retrieve. He ranges out two to three hundred yards (comfortable for me), listens and points birds for me. I think it is just human nature for people to find their own comfort level and tell themselves they have no need for anything more or less. The problem is when we tell others what their comfort levels should be.

[Max2]

When I was still professionally training, the BIGGEST concern of people bringing pointing dog's to our kennel was that they could handle them. Many of these people were just people; they were not strict disciplinarians, they didn't live to hunt, they didn't train 12 months a year. They were, what I would classify, the average Hunter. YES, that person was afraid that a field trial dog would run away. So to sum this threads up, I would say that MOST bird hunters are afraid to own a field trial dog and from my perspective, justifiably so because they simply don't keep the training up.

Absolutely right. Most people do not want to train there family pet everyday.

You guy's have lit the this makes sense button. I would add I still don't think 82.5 % it's just the FT line of dogs~ but won't totally rule it out. I have seen a lot of folks get dogs with the intention of making a bird dog but never follow through~ More times then the folks that stuck with it. The folks had short attention spans I guess.

[gonehuntin']

It was a shame this thread took some of the turns it did, one member getting banned over it. I think it was Insulting for Ray, one of the best members on here, to insult people with close working dog's by saying they were useless and irrelevant, even though that is truly how he feels. The type of dog that a person is comfortable with is that person's business and no one else. Three Britt's, who is also one of the nicest guys on these boards and a person I've hunted with on a couple of occasions, treats his dog's like children so was highly insulted when Ray said they were useless and irrelevant. 3B's shoots a LOT of birds over those dog's and yearly is in Ohio, Pa, Mi, and Ok doing so. He LIKES close working pointing dog's because he likes to watch them, be in constant contact with them and protect them. Believe me, no one takes BETTER care of their dog's than he does.

I also understand Ezzy's position; he has the toughest job on here, does it for free as far as I know, is constantly criticized but through it all has built this BB into what I consider, the best on the net. I believe more relevant information about pointing dog's from the best sources on the net passes through this board that anywhere else on the net. Ezzy pretty much let's threads run their course with perhaps a little guidance from him and rarely do the threads turn abusive and nasty. As long as they don't they are very interesting threads versus at least one other board that is so heavily moderated many threads never develop to their potential.

Much as I like Ray, and certainly no one helps new dog owners on here more than he does, I think it was wrong of him to say close working dogs are worthless and irrelevant. That was a train wrecks on the way to perdition. It was also wrong of 3B''s to become so incensed by it that he was banned. The end of the thread pretty much, I thought, came to the conclusion that was apparent all along: The type of dog everyone hunts with is their business and no one else's, and no one should be insulted over their choice.

Sunday sermon over.

[ezzy333]

Nice post and I thank you, You are right, it has been pretty much gratis. One thing that you have misquoted though, Ray said quote "I personally have no idea why. I always thought that if a pointing dog never got out beyond gun range, they were pretty much useless...well maybe not useless, but certainly irrelevant. If I have to walk there anyway...why feed a dog to go find birds I was going to walk up anyhow? I do understand the reasons why it is prudent to have a flushing dog within gun range most of the time, but not a pointing dog."

Just to set the record straight.

[Mountaineer]

Be it ruffed a grouse covert or pheasant cover.....a birdhunter will never walk to every bird within gun range...they just do not have the nose for it.
"Walking to them" all is simply not in the cards....regardless of distance.
Unless, of course, the bird shooter planted the birds.

A closer ranging pointing dog can therefore have a value, a value besides companionship and simple preference, beyond someone's own concept of relevance or a food bowl.
Personally, many such are not my solo cup o' tay but I know many dogs that deserve the respect of being who they are....the same applies to those who follow their tail.

Message boards seeking to be inclusive and reap the positives that can deliver should not be birdshy of mistakes and reverse gears.

[cjhills]

Nice post and I thank you, You are right, it has been pretty much gratis. One thing that you have misquoted though, Ray said quote "I personally have no idea why. I always thought that if a pointing dog never got out beyond gun range, they were pretty much useless...well maybe not useless, but certainly irrelevant. If I have to walk there anyway...why feed a dog to go find birds I was going to walk up anyhow? I do understand the reasons why it is prudent to have a flushing dog within gun range most of the time, but not a pointing dog."

Just to set the record straight.

Don't see that R G was misquoted. He did say useless, then walked it back a bit and went to irrelevant. Could be " Three Britt" likes they way his dogs hunt and his dogs. He definitely had a right to find the comments offensive. Lifetime ban is amazing. He should have known better though.
If you hunt wild birds in good cover, like cattail swamps, a good retrieving 50yd pointing dog could be a major asset. SDDNR believe that hunters who walk up birds without a dog lose 40% of the birds they shoot..........Cj

[Sharon]

I enjoyed this thread. Ray's not perfect, although 99.9% of the time you won't get better advice nor more help. Don't you dare back off Ray , I need you - your help that is.

[ezzy333]

Nice post and I thank you, You are right, it has been pretty much gratis. One thing that you have misquoted though, Ray said quote "I personally have no idea why. I always thought that if a pointing dog never got out beyond gun range, they were pretty much useless...well maybe not useless, but certainly irrelevant. If I have to walk there anyway...why feed a dog to go find birds I was going to walk up anyhow? I do understand the reasons why it is prudent to have a flushing dog within gun range most of the time, but not a pointing dog."

Just to set the record straight.

Don't see that R G was misquoted. He did say useless, then walked it back a bit and went to irrelevant. Could be " Three Britt" likes they way his dogs hunt and his dogs. He definitely had a right to find the comments offensive. Lifetime ban is amazing. He should have known better though.
If you hunt wild birds in good cover, like cattail swamps, a good retrieving 50yd pointing dog could be a major asset. SDDNR believe that hunters who walk up birds without a dog lose 40% of the birds they shoot..........Cj

Glad you didn't see any problem. I wasn't trying to change anything but just wanted to make sure we all knew what he said and how it was said. Probably didn't need to do it if you hadn't noticed the difference.

[Max2]

I didn't realize that someone was cast out because of this thread. Perhaps a time out for the individual might have been a possibility . Hopefully unless what was said is totally unacceptable the forum will look at letting them back in the future. For me this thread is closed . Quite honestly not on a bad note. After my Max dog and I am afraid he won't see another season this bird dog "stuff" all ends.

But if there was another dog..... he would more then 100% come out of field trial lines...
Just my humble opinion & if I stay in the area that I currently live in and hunt in 35yrds =105 ft ~ 75 yrds=225ft & I will be lov'n it.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I am truly sorry that anyone took it personally, but doubly sorry that someone got banned over it.

We all benefit from the knowledge and experiences of the collective community and to lose a member is a loss to us all.

I honestly hoped that there would be some airing of varying opinions and especially some differing perceptions on the subject, which would give everyone the opportunity to think about and openly discuss those perceptions. I hope, to some extent, that was accomplished. I knew there would be some controversy, but strong sentiments can often get to the root of a thing.

We all have opinions and they are our opinions, so they are right...for us. When opinions on the same subject differ dramatically, there have to be reasons for it. When we get past the different opinions and perceptions and get to the underlying reasons which formed those different opinions and perceptions, we should have a better understanding of the why, and should be able to make better decisions for ourselves and our own situation.

Once again, I am sorry if anyone took it personally. That was absolutely not my intent.

RayG

[ezzy333]

No one was banned because of this topic to just set the record straight.

[cjhills]

Guys -

I am truly sorry that anyone took it personally, but doubly sorry that someone got banned over it.

We all benefit from the knowledge and experiences of the collective community and to lose a member is a loss to us all.

I honestly hoped that there would be some airing of varying opinions and especially some differing perceptions on the subject, which would give everyone the opportunity to think about and openly discuss those perceptions. I hope, to some extent, that was accomplished. I knew there would be some controversy, but strong sentiments can often get to the root of a thing.

We all have opinions and they are our opinions, so they are right...for us. When opinions on the same subject differ dramatically, there have to be reasons for it. When we get past the different opinions and perceptions and get to the underlying reasons which formed those different opinions and perceptions, we should have a better understanding of the why, and should be able to make better decisions for ourselves and our own situation.

Once again, I am sorry if anyone took it personally. That was absolutely not my intent.

RayG

Why should opinions on bird dogs not vary dramatically. Why should we even try to get past the different opinions and perceptions and The underlying reason for the difference of opinion and perceptions. Other people should actually have a right to an Opinion. The fact that it is different than yours should not be an excuse to insult them or the dogs or call them names.
If we went by your rules we would only need one breed of dog.
The underlying reason is different strokes for different folks and that is how some of us like it.
It may be a surprise to you but some of us do not give a hoot what you think and do not really care about your opinion of how we can make better decisions ourselves and for our situation............................Cj

[ezzy333]

Guys -

I am truly sorry that anyone took it personally, but doubly sorry that someone got banned over it.

We all benefit from the knowledge and experiences of the collective community and to lose a member is a loss to us all.

I honestly hoped that there would be some airing of varying opinions and especially some differing perceptions on the subject, which would give everyone the opportunity to think about and openly discuss those perceptions. I hope, to some extent, that was accomplished. I knew there would be some controversy, but strong sentiments can often get to the root of a thing.

We all have opinions and they are our opinions, so they are right...for us. When opinions on the same subject differ dramatically, there have to be reasons for it. When we get past the different opinions and perceptions and get to the underlying reasons which formed those different opinions and perceptions, we should have a better understanding of the why, and should be able to make better decisions for ourselves and our own situation.

Once again, I am sorry if anyone took it personally. That was absolutely not my intent.

RayG

Why should opinions on bird dogs not vary dramatically. Why should we even try to get past the different opinions and perceptions and The underlying reason for the difference of opinion and perceptions. Other people should actually have a right to an Opinion. The fact that it is different than yours should not be an excuse to insult them or the dogs or call them names.
If we went by your rules we would only need one breed of dog.
The underlying reason is different strokes for different folks and that is how some of us like it.
It may be a surprise to you but some of us do not give a hoot what you think and do not really care about your opinion of how we can make better decisions ourselves and for our situation............................Cj

Careful, you are doing exactly what you re complaining about, finding fault with someone else and their opinion. Lets get back on topic and stop the banter about each other.

[gonehuntin']

Personally, I'd say it's time to lock the house. Gettin' ugly now.

[Sharon]

Absolutely. Mr Hills jumps at the opportunity to attack someone personally. Sad.