Next puppy advice

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mountaindogs
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Next puppy advice

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:58 pm

I bought a lab 4 years ago and he is an extremely fantastic dog. Really like almost everything about him. We are working our way through the HRC, he hunts nearly all duck season and is easy and driven, he plays Rally Obedience easily and qualified for nationals, he is also a spoiled house dog and I could just go on. The breeder in me will admit there are a few small things I would change. Always something to improve. I had hoped to get another female with similar breeding but not too tight, but the breeder wants me to get a spring puppy that is pretty tight. Puppy would have my dog's sire as her Grandsire on both sides. And the dam linebreeds also but not quite as tight. So probably too tight to breed to our male, but seems to me the dog herself has a strong potential of being what I want in a dog, much like my male.
The husband who is more hunter and does not follow pedigrees and such like I do, wanted a female with lines that would cross well with our male. The lines are outstanding, CH/MH lineage, with long history of health testing and solid health with nice temperaments. The breeder has done a good job of crossing back to trial lines and bumping up the drive and power. We have plenty of dog experience and know that we will never get the exact same dog, and don't want that, but I know when I see a good think and this breeder is getting what he desires. (and what I want too!)

So go with the girl puppy this spring or keep looking for a less tight breeding that we could cross back in? What would you do?

cjhills
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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:22 pm

What does your breeder think of breeding your male with the new puppy. There is more to line breeding than how close it is. How far back does this linebreeding go, Especially the mother line. Evidently the breeder thought enough of these dogs to breed half brother and sister.
I think I would consider going with the female and either breed with your male or go with a outside male with your breeders help. Look very carefully at bites and legs. It seems bad bites, cow hocks and toed out on the front are the first issues to show up. And the most noticeable. No matter what breeders tell you, you can not breed anything out completely, but out crossing has no guarantees either....................Cj

Timewise65
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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by Timewise65 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:14 pm

I have been running Golden Retrievers for over 25 years in hunt tests. We have always focused on getting the best field dog we can find from a breeder who has been doing it for a long time. Our newest girl is now 4 years old has her Senior Hunter SH and Working Dog Excellent WCX. As you know being at the SH level she is a fully trained working dog, meaning I can handle her to blind falls, she is obedient, steady, and full of Zip (not sure that's required, but good breeders produce dogs with style and hard chargers).

I had though seriously about breeding my oldest Female as she has been such a fine dog and has a very strong pedigree. But I did tons of research including talking to the trainers and breeders I have worked with in the past. First, to breed you dog has to have a clear pedigree. Most legitimate breeders charge more for a bitch for breeding than just a hunting/family dog. If the pedigree you have on your dog is restricted, you could not register the litter. Check with your breeder on this, sometimes if you are restricted, for a fee they can have it changed.

More importantly, I learned that as a breeder you should be able to justify that you are "Improving the breed" by breeding this dog. It is not a law, just an ethic that says if all breeders make sure that all health certificated on this dog pedigree have been done and shown good health. What about longevity of the line?, etc. etc. I soon decided that I was better off finding a good breeder and procuring the best new dog I could find....! And thats exactly what I ddi...Good luck

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mountaindogs
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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:28 pm

cjhills wrote:What does your breeder think of breeding your male with the new puppy. There is more to line breeding than how close it is. How far back does this linebreeding go, Especially the mother line. Evidently the breeder thought enough of these dogs to breed half brother and sister.
I think I would consider going with the female and either breed with your male or go with a outside male with your breeders help. Look very carefully at bites and legs. It seems bad bites, cow hocks and toed out on the front are the first issues to show up. And the most noticeable. No matter what breeders tell you, you can not breed anything out completely, but out crossing has no guarantees either....................Cj
All good questions. The breeder felt like my male to this female would be too tight potentially. I think it depends on exactly how the girl grows, but my male's Dam lines tend large, and the yellows can have weak black pigment. My male is black. The sire and grandsire in common is himself nearly an outcross and I think it was a cross that hit the nail on the head nicely. I can share all the pedigrees if you want and think it will help visualize. This breeder has a very dedicated following on social media and I see lots and lots of his puppies in their new homes all grown up and being good hunters and family dogs. Not too many are competition dogs but the CH/MH in labs is a smaller group of enthusiasts. The breed is still extremely split and blending the conformation and field is not done by too many. My male has spot on bite and the UKC judges I showed him under both make verbal compliments on it. That leads me to think it's an issue in the breed. He also has very straight correct pasterns and good feet, which the show lines tend to loose quickly. The photos I see of other offspring look to have good natural stacks, straight legs, and anyone's guess about bite. Some variation in size. Being new to the breed has me nearly starting over with learning all the troubles, but labs have many as a breed.

I know I haven't posted much on here lately, but I am not new to breeding in general just newer to this breed. With GSPs I know more of the who has what issues gossip and what lines bring what to the table. Less so in labs. Still genetics is never a given. Especially when you think you know something.

Thanks for your input BTW. Do we dog people over think these things or is is GOOD that we think them through thoroughly? or both LOL!

cjhills
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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:09 pm

We over think these things ( at least I do) but it is good that we do.
The big problem is with all the thinking and planning you still get an occasional surprise and "Joe down the road puts two mutts together and gets awesome pups. Go figure.........Cj

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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:30 pm

Mountaindogs -

There is tight breeding and then there is TIGHT breeding. Honestly, with a gene pool as large as that of Labs, I would not be concerned about how tight the breeding was unless you were talking about mother/son or father /daughter or something VERY close to that.

If you like what a male brings to the table and you like what the female brings to the table, they will probably have a litter with a fair number of the pups having desirable qualities from both. If the male and female have similar ancestry, especially in the first three generations, it is much more likely that some of those desirable traits will become more fixed in the pups and thus, be more readily passed down to succeeding generations. If you are thinking long term and improvement of the breed...that is how it is done...little by little, always building, improving.

Just remember that not just the good stuff gets inherited. If there is a flaw in both sire and dam, it can get magnified in the pups. If sire and dam have similar ancestry...that flaw can also become fixed in the offspring...and THAT is a problem.

RayG

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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by CDN_Cocker » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:24 am

I think you'll find that with most well bred labs linebreeding isn't all that common. Most breeding/breeders I see tend to be top dog to top dog type breedings.

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mountaindogs
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Re: Next puppy advice

Post by mountaindogs » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:32 pm

Thanks all. CDN_Cocker, that is what I see in the lab world as well. When they say "line bred on creek robber" the dog may go back to creek robber 2 x in 4 generations or maybe 3. I was looking for a line bred Hawkeye's Viking offspring and there are offspring but none very tight.

I think this female is one to not pass up. I will deal with the breeding issues later - but I will pipe dream almost every day until then :lol: :lol: because I am addicted and can not help it.

I shall post pictures of her when she joins the family in about 4 months if biology cooperates.

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Next puppy advice

Post by Shellottome » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:20 pm

I don't look at it like mother dog, dad dog, brother dog etc. If there's two kick butt dogs I would breed hoping to get more kick butt dogs. I've heard in extreme cases of line breeding having genetic defects. This one instance was extreme.


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