Vizsla vs GSP training style??

Deroid226 · Post by **Deroid226** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:42 pm

I have a Vizsla on the way end of Feb. Family and I can't wait. I have ben reading a bunch of books (some real good some real bad) and watching videos also. I just got done watching George Hickox "training pointing dogs" . The problem I have is that the books and videos are always using GSP. I have been told by a bunch of people that Vizslas do not respond well to negative discipline , but in fact thrive on positive training. So looking for a few pointers from you guys about what route to go with in training. I want to do my best training the dog and fail him.

reba · Post by **reba** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:13 pm

I really don't think any dog response well to "negative discipline" What ever that is!

Throw out those books and videos!

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:23 pm

I have never heard of positive discipline. I also have never seen a dog trained with out some discipline. It has been a standard for years that learning is enhanced with somewhere near 70% positive and 30% negative and in my experience that is some where near right. I think what is more important for the trainer is the timing and severity of the corrections or discipline.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:47 pm

I only have a little exposure to V's, so take this for what it is worth.

The ones I have seen have been smart, and I mean whip smart. They are on the sensitive side and will sulk if you press them and they don't understand why. The seem to be kinda one person type dogs.

I worked with one V and he was an awesome dog, but he was difficult, because he wanted his owner's approval and kinda resented me and tended to balk at what I was asking him to do. He was talented enough to be a field champion, but that was not where his owner wanted to go. She did put a Senior hunter on him though. Really nice dog.

My sense of it is that they will do best with a gentle, loving, fair, but firm hand. You had better plan your training ahead of time and know the what and the how, or your V might just take YOU to school.

Good luck with your pup. They are neat dogs.

RayG

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:03 pm

Pretty much as with all breeds the individuals temperament is more important than the breed in general. The methods that work with GSPs will work with Vizlas. The breeder should be able to help you with what to expect.........Cj

GmanHawaii · Post by **GmanHawaii** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:50 pm

My trainer trains V's same as my GSP

tekoa · Post by **tekoa** » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:59 pm

IMHO
Never heard of negative or positive discipline.

Animal behavior training, including canine and human training, involves positive and negative "reinforcement" which just means adding (positive) or taking away (negative) incentives, obstacles, etc. All individual dogs respond to positive and negative reinforcement differently, more as individuals than breeds. That's why behavioral training is as much art as science.

Any of the training systems, Hickox, Hann, Smith, Higgins etc........ can be used to train any breed bred for pointing with great success. The 'art' of training lies in understanding how much training,how much pressure, how much repetition, how much reward an individual dog needs to accomplish the desired behavior. Only way to know is to understand how this dog responds. He'll tell you what he needs if you stay tuned in to his ability to learn and be prepared to to change, slow down, speed up or stop the activity.

Good Luck, let us know how it goes.

Deroid226 · Post by **Deroid226** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:33 am

I have a part Vizsla now and all that is correct. Thank you for the replies.

jczv · Post by **jczv** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:02 pm

if this Viszla is from hard charging hunting or field trial lines then there 's no difference from training a GSP.

But if your not sure of the lines, or how much the parents hunted etc. then I'd do a couple things before anything else. Work with the dog to make sure that it is jacked up about birds, there's still plenty of Vizslas out there with lower drive. After you've done that work a very conservative program to associate gunshots with birds. I have seen more gunshy V's then every other breed combined. Then start whatever training program, Hickox seems fine to me, dispassionate consistent repetition (and repetition is over days and weeks not within the same training session) with whatever program always seems what works from what I've observed.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:16 pm

Vizslas tend to have a very high desire to please their masters.

You'll do much better making your expectations and training very clear (and unambiguous) and positively reinforcing the desired behaviors than turning to pain and punishment as standard procedure. Start positively shaping the desired behaviors from day one with the pup.

Abusive training methods are unnecessary and counter-productive.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:40 pm

Spy Car wrote:Vizslas tend to have a very high desire to please their masters.

You'll do much better making your expectations and training very clear (and unambiguous) and positively reinforcing the desired behaviors than turning to pain and punishment as standard procedure. Start positively shaping the desired behaviors from day one with the pup.

Abusive training methods are unnecessary and counter-productive.

Bill

Absolutely true with any training of any breed. But of course, any normal training including corrections are not normally abusive and I think we all are in agreement of that.

Ezzy

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:29 am

I train both Vizslas and GSP and my training methods do not change per breed, but per dog as needed. Vizslas are known to be softer dogs than GSPs and that is true for the most part. GSPs are known to be more stubborn and tougher dogs, somewhat true but not the rule. The problems I have witnessed are the methods used by predominately German dog trainers. The German testing systems and even NAVHDA are all about obedience and control. The methods of training are passed down the line and alot of those methods are just to harsh for a Vizsla. Those are the trainers that cannot train a Vizsla or Setter or Pointer. The Vizsla is a very intelligent dog and will not tolerate a heavy hand generally speaking.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Vizslas tend to have a very high desire to please their masters.

You'll do much better making your expectations and training very clear (and unambiguous) and positively reinforcing the desired behaviors than turning to pain and punishment as standard procedure. Start positively shaping the desired behaviors from day one with the pup.

Abusive training methods are unnecessary and counter-productive.

Bill
Absolutely true with any training of any breed. But of course, any normal training including corrections are not normally abusive and I think we all are in agreement of that.

Ezzy

Well, I've read posts on this forum advocating scaring dogs so badly that they feel their only safe place in the world is by their master's side. I believe they call this "technique" de-bolting.

And that shooting them with sling-shots and'or BB-guns is only outmoded because of the advent of e-collars. Like this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=50428&p=467369&hil ... ng#p467369

So I'm fairly sure we are not all in agreement about what is and what is not abusive.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:08 pm

Probably true but there is little we can do about that since there is no line that would clearly separate the two. If you are going to include scaring as abusive I think we are all in trouble. However, most of the other point were practiced back before we had more modern methods that give us the ability to reach out and correct a problem quite gentlely. But even in the old days we saw few problems show up from the dogs reaction so I think in many cases we made more out of it than the dogs did. Results were much like the FF we still do where the force is used to overcome their resistance to what we are asking often brought on by lack of understanding.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:00 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Probably true but there is little we can do about that since there is no line that would clearly separate the two. If you are going to include scaring as abusive I think we are all in trouble. However, most of the other point were practiced back before we had more modern methods that give us the ability to reach out and correct a problem quite gentlely. But even in the old days we saw few problems show up from the dogs reaction so I think in many cases we made more out of it than the dogs did. Results were much like the FF we still do where the force is used to overcome their resistance to what we are asking often brought on by lack of understanding.

I'd call terrorizing a dog until it is reduced to thinking the only safe place in its world is by it owners side is both abusive and counter-productive to developing a wide-ranging bird dog.

Shooting dogs with BBs or marbles from sling-shots is never a "gentle" practice.

FF (force fetch) is completely unnecessary if one cultivates a love of fetch and working in a partnership from early puppyhood.

Bill

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:41 pm

When I was training, every dog went through EXACTLY the same program, it was the amount of pressure that varried with each dog. Although I trained only a few V's, that's still what I feel. You teach the exact same things using the exact same methods to any breed of dog by simply varying the pressure. Some GSP's are softer than some V's of GWP'S. It's all in reading the dog. Every good trainer is only as tough as he has to be.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:When I was training, every dog went through EXACTLY the same program, it was the amount of pressure that varried with each dog. Although I trained only a few V's, that's still what I feel. You teach the exact same things using the exact same methods to any breed of dog by simply varying the pressure. Some GSP's are softer than some V's of GWP'S. It's all in reading the dog. Every good trainer is only as tough as he has to be.

As a trainer and owner/handler, it has always been a misguided thought that you had to train a dog different due to it's breed. Successful trainer have always trained by what the individual dog needed to be able to learn. And I have never understood this attitude that because someone has trained a dog or two today with totally different equipment, that they are qualified to find fault with what was necessary to be successful years ago. There is a different idea of what is proper and humane today than yester year but every change has not been for the better while some have, But the successful trainers, no matter when or how, have always did what it takes to train a dog in a manner that it could learn and perform. And you can count on very little of it being abusive or it would not have worked.

Remember, that what someone thinks is abusive does not make it so. Look at the dog's performance and abusive will show up in a blink of an eye.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:41 am

ezzy333 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:When I was training, every dog went through EXACTLY the same program, it was the amount of pressure that varried with each dog. Although I trained only a few V's, that's still what I feel. You teach the exact same things using the exact same methods to any breed of dog by simply varying the pressure. Some GSP's are softer than some V's of GWP'S. It's all in reading the dog. Every good trainer is only as tough as he has to be.
As a trainer and owner/handler, it has always been a misguided thought that you had to train a dog different due to it's breed. Successful trainer have always trained by what the individual dog needed to be able to learn. And I have never understood this attitude that because someone has trained a dog or two today with totally different equipment, that they are qualified to find fault with what was necessary to be successful years ago. There is a different idea of what is proper and humane today than yester year but every change has not been for the better while some have, But the successful trainers, no matter when or how, have always did what it takes to train a dog in a manner that it could learn and perform. And you can count on very little of it being abusive or it would not have worked.

Remember, that what someone thinks is abusive does not make it so. Look at the dog's performance and abusive will show up in a blink of an eye.

That you don't think shooting dogs with BBs or marbles isn't abusive Ezzy doesn't make it so.

And while smart trainers treat each dog individually, they also know that the narrowing of the gene pool that creates individual breeds also shapes bred-typical behaviors and breed-typical temperments. And they'd know Vizslas typically excel when a trainer uses positive methods and do poorly when subject to physical pain.

The OP would do well to understand this.

Bill

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:45 am

It's not whether or not you shoot them with a marble Spycar, it's how far you pull the slingshot back.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:29 am

gonehuntin' wrote:It's not whether or not you shoot them with a marble Spycar, it's how far you pull the slingshot back.

It has never been about the tool but rather how you use the tool. Some just don't understand that and they are the ones that try to do away with the tool.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:13 am

ezzy333 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:It's not whether or not you shoot them with a marble Spycar, it's how far you pull the slingshot back.
It has never been about the tool but rather how you use the tool. Some just don't understand that and they are the ones that try to do away with the tool.

You know Ezzy, over my lifetime with dogs I've seen a ton of these bleeding heart snowflakes that will NOT firmly discipline a dog, yet I've never seen one with what I would call a RELIABLY trained dog.

Bigdon · Post by **Bigdon** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:25 pm

Check out the Higgins method. The trick is to get the dog to want to do what you want them to do. The problem with punishment is that some dogs will have to test you every time you hunt. Or if you are not close will do thier own thing.
Also Web Parton has some great info in his book Bond of Passion on having the dog hunt for the gun with you as a pack member and not just hunting for the chase.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:It's not whether or not you shoot them with a marble Spycar, it's how far you pull the slingshot back.
It has never been about the tool but rather how you use the tool. Some just don't understand that and they are the ones that try to do away with the tool.
You know Ezzy, over my lifetime with dogs I've seen a ton of these bleeding heart snowflakes that will NOT firmly discipline a dog, yet I've never seen one with what I would call a RELIABLY trained dog.

And over my lifetime training rock-solid dogs I've found that those who abuse their dogs can't ever trust those dogs if the aren't wearing an e-collar.

Bill

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 pm

So, none of the thousands of retrievers running field trials and hunt test WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the pointing dog's running trials WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the versatile dog's testing in NAVHDA or German system WITHOUT ECOLLARS none of the hounds running in their stakes WITHOUT ECOLLARS, NONE of the CH's, FC's, VC's, NFC's can be trusted without an ecollar?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:56 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:So, none of the thousands of retrievers running field trials and hunt test WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the pointing dog's running trials WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the versatile dog's testing in NAVHDA or German system WITHOUT ECOLLARS none of the hounds running in their stakes WITHOUT ECOLLARS, NONE of the CH's, FC's, VC's, NFC's can be trusted without an ecollar?

Don't get too upset with Bill(SpyCar). He just can't help finding fault with anything that owners, trainers, or feed manufacturers have done that made them successful over the years. He always has a better way to do the same thing we have done for years with the same results, and often forgetting the facts along the way.

Ezzy!

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:So, none of the thousands of retrievers running field trials and hunt test WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the pointing dog's running trials WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the versatile dog's testing in NAVHDA or German system WITHOUT ECOLLARS none of the hounds running in their stakes WITHOUT ECOLLARS, NONE of the CH's, FC's, VC's, NFC's can be trusted without an ecollar?
Don't get too upset with Bill(SpyCar). He just can't help finding fault with anything that owners, trainers, or feed manufacturers have done that made them successful over the years. He always has a better way to do the same thing we have done for years with the same results, and often forgetting the facts along the way.

Ezzy!

Better way?? According to whom? Show me the data.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:01 pm

That isn't going to happen

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:27 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:So, none of the thousands of retrievers running field trials and hunt test WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the pointing dog's running trials WITHOUT ECOLLARS, none of the versatile dog's testing in NAVHDA or German system WITHOUT ECOLLARS none of the hounds running in their stakes WITHOUT ECOLLARS, NONE of the CH's, FC's, VC's, NFC's can be trusted without an ecollar?

No, but you've said repeatedly that you'd never trust one of your dogs to be outside without ana e-collar, and you use and advocate for the most abusive means I've ever heard anyone call for.

It is backward, cruel, unnecessary and counter-productive.

Bill

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:43 pm

Why would I ever trust ANY hunting dog outside without an ecollar? I highly value my dog's, live in town, walk my dogs outside every day, and consider the ecollar to be the most humane and effective training aid that there is. At my age I highly value "peace of mind" and that is what the ecollar gives me that nothing else but a leash will.

Brutal methods? I don't think you can find a training book where my methods are not advocated, from ecollar to heeling stick to marble. Well, maybe the marble no longer; most people other than trainers are no longer good enough shots with one,

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:22 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Why would I ever trust ANY hunting dog outside without an ecollar? I highly value my dog's, live in town, walk my dogs outside every day, and consider the ecollar to be the most humane and effective training aid that there is. At my age I highly value "peace of mind" and that is what the ecollar gives me that nothing else but a leash will.

Brutal methods? I don't think you can find a training book where my methods are not advocated, from ecollar to heeling stick to marble. Well, maybe the marble no longer; most people other than trainers are no longer good enough shots with one,

People with reliable dogs aren't fearful their commands will be heeded without resort to an e-collar blast. Or fears the dog is smart enough to know whn to listen (when the collar is on) and when they better (as punative measures will follow).

I understand you have no clue how to train without resort to violent means.

Bill

Shellottome · Post by **Shellottome** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:25 pm

Bill sorry for Hillary losing now months ago. Time to move forward. E collars are one of the best inventions ever for dog safety.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:43 am

Spy Car wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Why would I ever trust ANY hunting dog outside without an ecollar? I highly value my dog's, live in town, walk my dogs outside every day, and consider the ecollar to be the most humane and effective training aid that there is. At my age I highly value "peace of mind" and that is what the ecollar gives me that nothing else but a leash will.

Brutal methods? I don't think you can find a training book where my methods are not advocated, from ecollar to heeling stick to marble. Well, maybe the marble no longer; most people other than trainers are no longer good enough shots with one,
People with reliable dogs aren't fearful their commands will be heeded without resort to an e-collar blast. Or fears the dog is smart enough to know whn to listen (when the collar is on) and when they better (as punative measures will follow).

I understand you have no clue how to train without resort to violent means.

Bill

I must be clueless as well, just wondering how one would "reliably" snake break a dog, stop a deer chase across a highway, or keep a dog from going face first in to a porcupine with positive reinforcement? I guess there is no need for that kind of thing at an LA dog park.

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:50 am

As the owner of a nearly 8 month old (it goes fast!) "soft" pup the premier lessons seem to be: 1. She learns fast when I go slow. 2) She appreciates the experiencing fun part before the learning the steps that will get her to the fun part. My brother uses the term "cerebral", I just say she's French

What I have done

Lots of play, always dragging a 12' check cord

I bought 6 quail that I released in the yard when she was 10 weeks (she never caught one), they lasted almost a month, I bought a couple more.

Socialize, socialize, socialize, one neighbor has an ancient Lab, another has a Lab and a Doberman, being confident and comfortable around other dogs helps a great deal when you go to NAVHDA or other group training.

NAVHDA or other training days are great opportunities intro pup to gunfire (at a distance) as you know where the guns will be, pup is with nice folks and cool dogs who aren't reacting to the shots.

Introduce new gear slowly, first time I gently tugged on her new pinch collar, she hit the deck like I dropped a load a bricks on her. Now, most of the time it takes a good tug to divert her attention. The E fence went live last week, she got zapped and was out of sorts for 3 hours.

At the last training day of the year, the training director at my NAVHDA chapter said to me, "Don't crush her soul" I doubt all NAVHDA folk are the same, be careful who you listen to/let touch your dog.

I never speak, or correct her when she has the scent of a bird or on point.

She's far from broke or perfectly obedient, but she's doing OK...

A few weeks ago...

Deroid226 · Post by **Deroid226** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:54 am

I have 2 dogs a vizsla mix and and a pit mix. I can use an email collar of my v-mix and all he does is respond to the command.....my pit mix (even on Super low setting) yelps and runs to my side and shakes.....and that is only on a nick....dogs are just different

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:41 pm

Deroid226 wrote:I have 2 dogs a vizsla mix and and a pit mix. I can use an email collar of my v-mix and all he does is respond to the command.....my pit mix (even on Super low setting) yelps and runs to my side and shakes.....and that is only on a nick....dogs are just different

That's because you have not introduced either one to the collar properly OR your collar is not working properly. Set your collar on ONE, grab it, and juice yourself. You probably will have a hard time feeling it. If it really zaps you, there's something wrong.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:59 pm

Garrison wrote: I must be clueless as well, just wondering how one would "reliably" snake break a dog, stop a deer chase across a highway, or keep a dog from going face first in to a porcupine with positive reinforcement? I guess there is no need for that kind of thing at an LA dog park.

Not all of us chose to live in a place where the main cultural attraction is an Indian casino Garrison, or need to live with our parents.

My dogs are trained to utter reliability on recall, whoa, sit, and several variations of heel using voice command, hand signals, and whistle from both a walking position on my part or from horseback. Same with being steady to shot and having excellent retrieval skills.

None of this training required abusing my dogs. I guess you really are clueless if you don't know recalling a dog or commanding them to whoa won't keep them from running into roadways or towards other hazards. My dogs listen. Training starts (informally) on day one and is reinforced continiously.

Bill

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:43 pm

Bill, does this mean we can't be friends? I feel like I may have inadvertently hit a nerve in asking how to train for a couple situations that I have experienced and avoided with the use of an ecollar. I'm not sure what my home, or my second home, or my parents home or their second home in LA has to do with the situations I asked about. I would be glad to talk about the wonderful culture in the beautiful city of LA and the bountiful "Gun Dog" training grounds within it at another time. But in an effort to keep it on topic, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if you answered the questions I asked. I have never abused my dog, yet he has a reliable recall, whoa and stands with a momentary stimulation of 1 on my collar at any distance. Many times when we are out he is not within voice or whistle range. How do I reliably stop him from going in on a snake, turn him or whoa him with out the use of an electronic collar and avoidance training if he is not in sight or can't hear me?

Almost forgot, we all love pictures show us that dog of yours on some game, sure you got some good shots from horseback? Oh sorry I forgot to ask, I probably shouldn't be so presumptuous, do you hunt or does that fall in to the animal cruelty category as well?

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