Springer/Golden Retriever Cross

[Montana]

I was contacted recently and was asked if black puppies can change to liver as they mature. The person said their liver/white Springer bred their Golden Retriever "by accident", but all of the pups were solid black. I explained that I'm not a genetics expert but with my somewhat limited knowledge of genetics, I replied that I didn't think it was possible for a Liver/white Springer to produce solid black pups when bred to a Golden Retriever (assuming both were purebred). I told the person that a more likely scenario was that a "Stranger in the Night" was probably the culprit and I would be looking around the Neighborhood for a stray black lab. I get some interesting e-mails every now and then....

[greg jacobs]

Not a clue. In gsp's no.Hope they are able to find good homes for all the pups.
Down at the shelter there are a lot of lg black crosses that generally don't get adopted. Pretty sad situation.

[fishvik]

No matter what the pups are going to be flushers and retrievers.

[greg jacobs]

Is your lab wirehair a pointer or a flusher.

[fishvik]

Is your lab wirehair a pointer or a flusher.

Puck is a pointer most of the time, he will back my GSP. If a bird starts to move, Puck will break.

[Montana]

I've bred Field Bred Springers for the past 28 years. Fortunately, I've never had an "accidental" breeding. People don't understand just how creative a male dog can be when there is a female in heat. I have heavy duty dog runs with heavy duty gates and they are covered with tin roofing...no way can a male get to one of my females accidentally. Several years ago a guy in town had a pair of labs.. He had them kenneled separately, but next to each other (chain link fencing). His female came into heat and the male bred her through the chain link. When he went out, they were tied through the fence.

[bustingcover]

It may be a very dark liver that lightens up as they get older.

[ezzy333]

Black doesn't surprise me as it would be one of the colors I would expect.

[cjhills]

Why would you expect black. I GSPs you need a black parent tom get a black puppy.
Dogs do not have accidental breedings, They always breed on purpose..........Cj

[slistoe]

The liver springer would be EEbb (no black, no yellow) and the Golden would be eeBB (Black carrier yellow dog) resulting in 100% Black pups EeBb.

[slistoe]

Why would you expect black. I GSPs you need a black parent tom get a black puppy.
Dogs do not have accidental breedings, They always breed on purpose..........Cj

That is because in GSP's you do not have the yellow gene to hide black carriers. Liver dogs have no black gene. But with Goldens black carriers are common.

[cjhills]

Very interesting. I never knew that. I have seen a ton of golden litters and I never seen a black puppy.....................Cj

[slistoe]

Very interesting. I never knew that. I have seen a ton of golden litters and I never seen a black puppy.....................Cj

That is because every golden is ee - the black gene can never express itself in the coat. If you see a golden with a black nose, you can bet it is carrying the black gene.

[Montana]

The liver springer would be EEbb (no black, no yellow) and the Golden would be eeBB (Black carrier yellow dog) resulting in 100% Black pups EeBb.

That's incorrect. Liver is a recessive gene in Springers. A liver/white Springer has two genes for liver, so it cannot produce a black pup unless bred to a dog that carries the gene for black. I dont' know what the genetic makeup is for a Golden Retriever, but I've never seen one anything but some shade of yellow. I'm guessing you are talking about a Yellow lab?????

[slistoe]

The liver springer would be EEbb (no black, no yellow) and the Golden would be eeBB (Black carrier yellow dog) resulting in 100% Black pups EeBb.

That's incorrect. Liver is a recessive gene in Springers. A liver/white Springer has two genes for liver, so it cannot produce a black pup unless bred to a dog that carries the gene for black. I dont' know what the genetic makeup is for a Golden Retriever, but I've never seen one anything but some shade of yellow. I'm guessing you are talking about a Yellow lab?????

???
That is what I said - the springer has two genes for liver - bb, no black in it at all or it would be black and not liver.
The Golden is yellow because it has two recessive genes for yellow ee which do not allow the black genes, BB to express in the coat.
If you breed a Golden to a Golden you will only get yellow coats because both dogs are double recessive. If you breed a liver Springer to a liver Springer you will get all liver pups because they both carry the double recessive. When you mix a liver dog with a yellow dog that has a double black gene then you get 100% black pups. Pretty simple really.

[Montana]

The liver springer would be EEbb (no black, no yellow) and the Golden would be eeBB (Black carrier yellow dog) resulting in 100% Black pups EeBb.

That's incorrect. Liver is a recessive gene in Springers. A liver/white Springer has two genes for liver, so it cannot produce a black pup unless bred to a dog that carries the gene for black. I dont' know what the genetic makeup is for a Golden Retriever, but I've never seen one anything but some shade of yellow. I'm guessing you are talking about a Yellow lab?????

???
That is what I said - the springer has two genes for liver - bb, no black in it at all or it would be black and not liver.
The Golden is yellow because it has two recessive genes for yellow ee which do not allow the black genes, BB to express in the coat.
If you breed a Golden to a Golden you will only get yellow coats because both dogs are double recessive. If you breed a liver Springer to a liver Springer you will get all liver pups because they both carry the double recessive. When you mix a liver dog with a yellow dog that has a double black gene then you get 100% black pups. Pretty simple really.

I'm not following.....how can a Golden Retriever be BB? The guy who e-mailed me said his liver/white Springer bred his Golden Retriever and all of the pups are solid black. That's not possible if all Golden Retrievers are ee.