Gun Dog Forum

Ezzy, I'm not trying to reopen the thread! Bear with me. I made one comment in the thread and will summarize that not owning a pointer, my opinion about long ranging pointers might change if I ever hunted with someone who owns one. So here goes - anyone in Minnesota with a long ranging pointer want to take me along some time to see what it's all about? I thank you.

If a dog is wide ranging or not depends on who you talk to.

IMO:

1.) If you know better than the dog does, as to where the wild birds are, then you want a close ranging dog that goes where you want to go.

2.) If you want to find more wild birds, then the guy in number one above, you want a big ranging dog. Then turn it loose and let it hunt, keep your mount shut and your whistle in your pocket.

My comments apply to western chukar, huns, sharp tail, sage grouse, etc. I don't hunt eastern pheasants and I am sure my dogs would not be welcome

We call it "big running" A big runner is out 350 yards and pointing as much as 800 to 900 yards out. Happens all the time when I am about back to the truck

reba wrote:IMO:

1.) If you know better than the dog does, as to where the wild birds are, then you want a close ranging dog that goes where you want to go.

2.) If you want to find more wild birds, then the guy in number one above, you want a big ranging dog. Then turn it loose and let it hunt, keep your mount shut and your whistle in your pocket.

My comments apply to western chukar, huns, sharp tail, sage grouse, etc. I don't hunt eastern pheasants and I am sure my dogs would not be welcome

We call it "big running" A big runner is out 350 yards and pointing as much as 800 to 900 yards out. Happens all the time when I am about back to the truck

This may be part of the issue. I would consider a 350 yard dog medium range. I do not normally need more than that. I don't think many people who have pointing dogs want to keep their dog within shotgun range. But if they do it is fine with me. My brother Has a lab that does nothing but retrieve. The dog walks at heel until he shoots a bird and sends him to retrieve. not what I want but in a winter cattail swamp or tall crp, it is very functional and they get a lot of birds. He likes the dog a lot and I have no reason to try to tell him anything different. Different strokes for different folks is my motto.
My biggest issue is that you have to get to the dog no matter where he is on point. If he is on point 1/2 a mile away you can spend a good share of your time hunting the dog. I know they make Astros. But you can put a couple birds in the bag with a little shorter dog in the time you are walking to the big dog. Point is If you cover the ground with a little slower medium range dog or a dog that runs full bore big runner you still have to cover the ground.
My point is there is only on requirement for a bird dog. That is to help you put birds in the bag. How they do it is just personal preference. I do not have the slightest concern about yours being different than mine. I will be impressed with your dog if he hunts the way you like. Useless and Irrelevant to one person is wonderful to another.
Frankly, if I get to my truck and the dog is 1000 yards away I might leave him there. Mine just do not do that. ..........................Cj

[quote="reba"]IMO:

1.) If you know better than the dog does, as to where the wild birds are, then you want a close ranging dog that goes where you want to go.

Suuuuush !

cjhills wrote: This may be part of the issue. I would consider a 350 yard dog medium range. ..........................Cj

And there in lies the answer to this whole thread. MOST bird hunters don't want a 350 yard dog; they want 100 yards and less. I would consider a 350 yard dog a trial dog. A 350yard dog doesn't fit my hunting at all. I can see why chuckar hunters like them but for pheasant or in the woods (yes, I know they shorten in the woods), they're useless to me. That's why they scare bird hunters, comments like that.

Distance creates terrible misconceptions in the horseback field trial world. I think it is the nature of people to want tangible metrics, as a result there are a good number of folks who would consider "yardage" the difference between an all-age and a gun dog/shooting dog. In example, 300 yards and less is a gun dog and 300 yards plus is an all-age dog. It doesn't work that way in the way I judge or determine the difference in my all-age and gun dogs. It is about ground application and ground application is entirely circumstantial.

Forget field trials for a moment...when birds are plentiful I can and do use my gun dogs they are a pleasure and a joy even when they are inexperienced (lot's more opportunities for good timing and control). Last week I could not get to my chukars because of weather and was relegated to sage brush flats and valley quail, 4 coveys totaling two or three hundred birds in a few hundred acre basin. More points and shells than I care to disclose to get a bag full of birds and stupidly fun hunting, didn't take much to locate birds and if you had a broke dog with style you could make a day of heaven. NOW....my two mature all-age dogs would have hunted that area much the same as my meat dogs, they have learned the difference in situations and how to adapt even though their natural characteristics ALLOW them to operate much differently (they however were gone working, a couple of trials and breedings) . I had a two year old green broke all-age dog that didn't leave the box other than potty furlough and to share salami and cheese. He would have been frustrating on the hunt and the behavior of the birds was too complicated and some training work would have come undone.

Now, conversely....If I was in a situation where birds were not concentrated because of the circumstances and terrain had to be covered the adaptation of the gun dogs would have been notable but not nearly as effective as the reverse I described above. Their motors, drive, stamina for great distances are simply not wired the same as the all-age dogs. Their desire to be with me does not get overridden by a need to find game. Not every situation requires extremities and in a leisure activity not everyone wants or appreciates the difference, I fail to see why that turns into an argument. I have in my circle of friends and acquaintances numerous guides and outfitters that live in the Nevada desert 5 months a year guiding for deer, elk, antelope and sheep. Most of them can kill a limit of quail or chukar regularly without a dog if they want to. They know where they are and they can go right to them. Circumstances differ greatly and what people want and need from a dog are multiplied exponentially along that curve based on taste and experience. Sometimes I want to make it harder rather than easier.

[url=http://s905.photobucket.com/user/chukar ... y.jpg.html][img]

gonehuntin' wrote:

cjhills wrote: This may be part of the issue. I would consider a 350 yard dog medium range. ..........................Cj

And there in lies the answer to this whole thread. MOST bird hunters don't want a 350 yard dog; they want 100 yards and less. I would consider a 350 yard dog a trial dog. A 350yard dog doesn't fit my hunting at all. I can see why chuckar hunters like them but for pheasant or in the woods (yes, I know they shorten in the woods), they're useless to me. That's why they scare bird hunters, comments like that.

Just saying we consider a close working dog 150 or less,medium 400 or less and big unlimited. Most people who have pointing dog experience will not want a dog that stays in shotgun range which I would say is 45 yds. But I think they are all good and all have some degree of usefulness. Whatever anyone likes is fine with me. I do not feel the need to convince anyone my way is better.
The great majority of bird hunters will prefer close (150)or less..............................Cj

My experience is that a good dog can adapt it's range to the game and conditions. I run AA-bred pointers, and after a season or two they figure out that five hundred yards is just fine for sharptails on the prairie, but the next weekend they happily stay within thirty yards in heavy cattails while searching for roosters. I have one dog who won't range out, and I much prefer the two that will, as I can always reign them back in if need be, but there's no way to push the close-range dog out any farther.

I admit that I get nervous when my dogs are a long ways out and out of my sight, my concerns being coyotes, deer and antelope hunters who might mistake them for wild dogs and shoot them, snares, snakes, etc. I don't mind them stretching way out when we're on the plains and I can watch them, but in the river bluffs I tend to keep them from cresting a hill that prevents me from keeping them in sight. I've been frustrated before when they didn't show back up, and I hike a quarter mile up a hill assuming they're on point on the other side, only to have them come running back just as I reach the top.

Agree with those who said to each their own. Some guys want horizon busters, others prefer their dog pretty much at heel. What works for me might not trip anyone else's trigger. I won't lose any sleep over that.

I'm a bird hunter and I like the 400yd plus dogs.

Mike

I hunt with a feller who has Llew's who are big runners. We hunt primarily Chuks together. His dogs find a lot of birds, he kills a lot of birds. I have traditional GSP bootlickers 100-300 yds max. We kill equal amount of birds. At the end of the day my boys are in their crates while we're waiting for his to decide to come off the hill
A big running trial dog I personally have no use for

QuillGordon wrote:I hunt with a feller who has Llew's who are big runners. We hunt primarily Chuks together. His dogs find a lot of birds, he kills a lot of birds. I have traditional GSP bootlickers 100-300 yds max. We kill equal amount of birds. At the end of the day my boys are in their crates while we're waiting for his to decide to come off the hill
A big running trial dog I personally have no use for

Said before... range of a dog is a personal preference... 100-300yd range I wouldn't consider a bootlicker. A dog that never leaves shotgun range would be my idea of a bootlicker.

nevermind wrote: Said before... range of a dog is a personal preference... 100-300yd range I wouldn't consider a bootlicker. A dog that never leaves shotgun range would be my idea of a bootlicker.

If you want to start a war on the net, call someone's dog a "bootlicker". It's a highly derogatory and insulting term to the Hunter that prefer's a close working dog. The grouse covert's are loaded with "bootlicker's".

MNTonester
Sorry, about the Hijack.
Seems like nobody is offering to show you their dogs work.
It the open prairie 300 yds is really not very far........Cj

gonehuntin' wrote:

nevermind wrote: Said before... range of a dog is a personal preference... 100-300yd range I wouldn't consider a bootlicker. A dog that never leaves shotgun range would be my idea of a bootlicker.

If you want to start a war on the net, call someone's dog a "bootlicker". It's a highly derogatory and insulting term to the Hunter that prefer's a close working dog. The grouse covert's are loaded with "bootlicker's".

Some grouse coverts are loaded....for some coverts, in areas of the range other than presently prime, dog distance has consistently been a plus in order to find 'em.
Just depends.

I hunt VERY big country for grouse and if you have a dog that goes much over 100 yards, you make so much noise getting to the dog the bird flies. The cover is incredibly thick. In the coverts of N. Wi. And N. Mi. I am death on big ranging grouse dog's. To me, they're useless. Many times when they get past 200 yards, the cover is so thick and terrain so rolling the Astro loses contact; then you're really screwed.

Compared to my bud's Llew's their bootlickers 100-300yds in Chuk country...
The Llew's can be up to three to four times that...

In Forest Grouse country they tighten up to about 100yds

Apparently, you don't hunt willow swamps , corn fields, or deep grass. Hunted a cornfield once with a pointer. Had to go back in to find the dog. He was on point. Hard to see in 6ft tall corn.

Once upon a time I did. I like Labs for that sort of thang

gonehuntin' wrote:I hunt VERY big country for grouse and if you have a dog that goes much over 100 yards, you make so much noise getting to the dog the bird flies. The cover is incredibly thick. In the coverts of N. Wi. And N. Mi. I am death on big ranging grouse dog's. To me, they're useless. Many times when they get past 200 yards, the cover is so thick and terrain so rolling the Astro loses contact; then you're really screwed.

Birds do ocassionally need to be co-operative.
The Astro will also occasionally lose contact in the steep Appalachians....it is a mo-chine.
"Useless".....is another dumb word like irrelevant when used to try and lock down a point(pun intended).

I hunt the U.P. and it can be thick.
Big ranging grouse dogs normally shorten or stretch to the cover and the birds...again it just depends...mostly on what one decides works or imagines does not work.
The latter tho is very much of the individual.
My Needlepoint setter Sonny pointed grouse and woodcock in da yoop and then pointed a pheasant at a speck over 700 yards in KS.
Birds thankfully obliged and then, they regretted it.
Sometimes it all works and sometimes it does not.
Who wants to kill 'em all?
Who needs to define a sunset for any but themselves?

And the conclusion is : the hunting conditions ( see quill Gordon's pics) dictate the range you want , and maybe the breed. You won't see anything like pic one in Ontario. Pic 2 is our kind of conditions.

Sharon wrote:And the conclusion is :

I bet the dog's don't care ?

gonehuntin' wrote:

nevermind wrote: Said before... range of a dog is a personal preference... 100-300yd range I wouldn't consider a bootlicker. A dog that never leaves shotgun range would be my idea of a bootlicker.

If you want to start a war on the net, call someone's dog a "bootlicker". It's a highly derogatory and insulting term to the Hunter that prefer's a close working dog. The grouse covert's are loaded with "bootlicker's".

Not my intention to insult someone's dog anymore than you calling a 100-300 yd dog useless. I'll be more political correct... how about distance challenged?

gonehuntin' wrote:

nevermind wrote: Said before... range of a dog is a personal preference... 100-300yd range I wouldn't consider a bootlicker. A dog that never leaves shotgun range would be my idea of a bootlicker.

If you want to start a war on the net, call someone's dog a "bootlicker". It's a highly derogatory and insulting term to the Hunter that prefer's a close working dog. The grouse covert's are loaded with "bootlicker's".

To clarify I like the term heal shiner better then boot~licker Though some folks do take it personal I myself do not . Nor does my pup were both elite~ ist

Honestly this is the interweb and one should take not offense when someone disagree's with what works for them.

I mean really folks ~ think about

So here goes - anyone in Minnesota with a long ranging pointer want to take me along some time to see what it's all about?

MNTonester - try contacting Frank LaNasa and/or Scott Jordan in Minnesota. They compete with pointers and have won some of the bigger wild bird prairie Shooting Dog and All Age trials there are in the game. Frank I believe chairs the Nat'l Am. Prairie Chicken trials in Wisconsin and Scott chairs the US Open Chicken championship which has been moved around a bit in recent years. Nice guys and I'm sure would be glad to offer you information or maybe take you along for a looksee. There is such misconception/misrepresentation on the WWW regarding trials and the application of dogs that compete/win in them - better to just go see for yourself. Think you'll be surprised to find they're just dogs and put their pants on one leg at a time just like your dog.

Covey hungarians:

Sorry, about the Hijack.
Seems like nobody is offering to show you their dogs work.

CJ, that's okay; I'm enjoying and learning a bit from the thread. DJFavor, thanks for the post. Chukar12, nice photos. Where were you?

Hi mntonester, those pictures and the hunt described were about forty miles north of Reno on the CA/Nev border

gonehuntin' wrote:I hunt VERY big country for grouse and if you have a dog that goes much over 100 yards, you make so much noise getting to the dog the bird flies. The cover is incredibly thick. In the coverts of N. Wi. And N. Mi. I am death on big ranging grouse dog's. To me, they're useless. Many times when they get past 200 yards, the cover is so thick and terrain so rolling the Astro loses contact; then you're really screwed.

We likely hunt many of the same covers and my experience is the complete opposite. I love it when my dog is over a 100 yards. Over 200 yards gets too far when I'm hunting, but for trialing it was great.

Chukar12 wrote:Hi mntonester, those pictures and the hunt described were about forty miles north of Reno on the CA/Nev border

GPS coordinates would be great! You are either a really nice guy, or that was actually 40 miles south of Reno, probably a little of both.

[quote="gonehuntin'"]I hunt VERY big country for grouse and if you have a dog that goes much over 100 yards, you make so much noise getting to the dog the bird flies.



This makes zero sense to me. Birds fly off when hunters are over 100 yards away walking thru brush. But birds hold when hunters are within shotgun range walking thru brush :roll:

blanked wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:I hunt VERY big country for grouse and if you have a dog that goes much over 100 yards, you make so much noise getting to the dog the bird flies.



This makes zero sense to me. Birds fly off when hunters are over 100 yards away walking thru brush. But birds hold when hunters are within shotgun range walking thru brush :roll:

Logic has never been a part of any "range" conversation I have ever seen.

I hunt my dogs on the open prairies, dense grouse bush and just about everything in between. My personal experience especially when grouse hunting is that the odds for success increase the more my dog distances itself from me - within reason. Hard as I try, I make too much noise negotiating grouse rich cover, even when I am being careful. My dogs have the pace to go with the range which "typically" causes grouse to hunker down giving me 1/2 a chance on the approach. Slow, methodical, close-working dogs where I hunt grouse - or prairie birds for that matter - means you can leave the shotgun at home. Given the choice, I'd rather have a snappy flusher than a yumpty-dump pointing dog which more-often-than not ends up being more of a flointer or plusher anyway.