Pedigree Help

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jcaff1019
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Pedigree Help

Post by jcaff1019 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:05 am

Hello all, I have a question that might not only help me, but other prospective puppy buyers as well. I am curious about how to read a pedigree, so that I can understand the lineage of a dog.

There are so many abbreviations (NAFC, FC, MH, MNH, etc.) and I do not know what they all correlate to. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, there are differing abbreviations for different types of hunt tests; dependent upon the breed of dog. Red writing from my understanding also means that a dog was a champion. Things like junior hunters versus master hunters, is there that much difference in the quality of the dog based upon those titles?

If anyone would like to post and put down what they know about how to read a pedigree, it would go a long way with not only helping me, but I believe others as well trying to get a GREAT dog.

Thank you


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deseeker
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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:47 pm

I'll just list AKC field abbreviations that occur before & after the dog's name.
TITLES BEFORE THE NAME
NFC - National Open All Age Field Champion
NAFC - National Amature All Age Field Champion
NGDFC -- National Open Gun Dog Field Champion
NGDAFC -- National Amature Gun Dog Champion
Ch -- AKC Show Champion
GCh - AKC Grand Show Champion (show champ with extra Points)
FC - Field Champion
GFC -- AKC Grand Field Champion (field champ that has extra points earned in Limited Stakes)
AFC - Amature Field Champion
DC - Show & Field Champion
TITLES AFTER THE NAME
JH - Junior Hunter title
JHA - Junior hunter Advanced title (JH Plus 5 more passes that average 8 instead of 7 (aA stands for Advanced)
SH - Senior Hunter title
SHA-- Senior Hunter Advanced title (SH title Plus 5 more passes that average 8 instead of 7 (A stands for Advanced)
MH - Master hunter title
MHA -master Hunter Advanced title (MH Plus 5 more passes that average 8 instead of 7 (A stands foe Advanced)

These are the ACK field abbreviations --there are other abbreviations for rally, theropy, obedience, herding, etc. and on & on --THEY CANE BE FOUND ON THE AKC WEB SITE IF YOU put Title abbreviations in their search engine. There are TOO many AKC abbreviations for me to list, but I have listed the main AKC field abbreviations for hunting dogs :roll:

The other dog registrations have their own title abbreviations -- American Field, UKC, etc.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:19 pm

GFC is for dogs who have finished their FC, and then done the same in 1hr (Grand) stakes. Limited stakes don't add anything ontop of the FC unless they are 1hr limited stakes.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:21 pm

jetjockey wrote:GFC is for dogs who have finished their FC, and then done the same in 1hr (Grand) stakes. Limited stakes don't add anything ontop of the FC unless they are 1hr limited stakes.
I was trying to be as simple as I could for a newby to under stand without writing the whole rule book down--it is probably easier if I said limited most people know what a limited stake is--most people don't know what a grand stake is unless they are a trailer :!: Chill out and don't correct everything that is posted---It makes you look like a know it all :D :roll: It was just a simple list of abbreviations that he could use looking at pedigrees.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:14 pm

Not trying to be a know it all, just clairifying things. If you want to make it easy, just say the GFC title is only achieved by getting points in 1hr stakes, vs an FC title whitch can be obtained by running 30 minute stakes. I'm sure most newbies have no idea what a "limited" stake is. Most newbies who own a watch can probably tell the difference between 30 minutes and 60 minutes! At least I hope they can! :lol:

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by Timewise65 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:06 pm

Another comment.....Titles that appear before the name of the dog, for instance FC Magic Maddie of Doublegold is a performance title won in competition against other dogs. Those titles are much harder to get and carry more weight when looking at a particular dogs pedigree. Titles that appear of the dogs name e.g. Magic Maddie of Doublegold SH are titles that are earned by passing a test, in this case she had to pass a Senior Hunt Tests four times to earn the title. These titles are still valuable in determining the 'worth' of a dog, but not as valuable as performance titles....

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deseeker
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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:02 pm

Timewise65 wrote:Another comment.....Titles that appear before the name of the dog, for instance FC Magic Maddie of Doublegold is a performance title won in competition against other dogs. Those titles are much harder to get and carry more weight when looking at a particular dogs pedigree. Titles that appear of the dogs name e.g. Magic Maddie of Doublegold SH are titles that are earned by passing a test, in this case she had to pass a Senior Hunt Tests four times to earn the title. These titles are still valuable in determining the 'worth' of a dog, but not as valuable as performance titles....
I'm going to add to this--It might depend on the breed :roll: Sometimes you can be deceived by the FC title in Brittanys. A FC Brittany does not have to retrieve to become a field champion, Also they can be whoaed into their backs, also since they don't have to retrieve all they have to do is stand to a blank gun with no bird falling. A master hunter Brittany has to retrieve it's birds to hand. It has to stand thru birds that fall and hit the ground until sent for retreive. It can't be whoad into it's honors. It has to be heeled off after a blank gun is fired where a field trial britt can be collared, moved in a different direction before being released to hunt on. In Brittanys a master hunter title is required to be more trained than a FC Britt. I know my FC(37 adult placements)Britt that I had was only a SH--I never could get a master pass on her because she didn't like to back and had to be whoad into all her backs. So if you see a FC in a Brittany pedigree--ask if it retrieves, stands thru a falling bird, heels off instead of being dragged off, and backs without being whoad into it. So pedigrees are helpful, but they don't tell you all :roll: :lol: :idea: :!: At least in Brittanys they don't.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:10 pm

Cough cough.... BS! You may be able to whoa a dog into a back at a trial that has no dogs to use, but any trial with any amount of competition, a whoa into a back is going to get you thrown out, even in he Brittany world! Since dogs don't have to back to win, keeping your dog out of that situation can keep you from being thrown out. I will agree that the FC title can be deceiving, but in the Brittany world, I assure you the GFC title is not, and that's why I specified that in my earlier post. Take a MH that doesn't have the style, the drive, and the determination to punch to the front, and you will never see that GFC title. That's one reason I clarified that the GFC title was for dogs placing in 1hr trials. I also guarantee you that any trial dog worth its salt has seen many, many birds killed over it. Want to know about a Brittany pedigree? Skip the AKC titles and look at the AF titles, those will tell you something.

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deseeker
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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:28 pm

Jet Jockey---
I've seen a lot of Britts whoaed into backs at trials by pros--Lyle Johnson, Johns, Appleton, Roscoe, Hoyer and even the Father & Son Rohners (your heros)back in the '90s. If you haven't heard them say whoa then you ain't listening - they will holler whoa if they know their dog isn't going to back and will be picked up.. Oh by the way AF Brittanys don't have to retrieve either. :lol: You live in your world and I'll live in mine :D

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:17 am

MH's don't have to beat competition, they have to beat a standard, and on a good day, everyone can get a ribbon, not so with trials. To say a MH brittany needs to be trained to a higher level than a FC Brittany is ridiculous, and I think most people would agree. Trials and Hunt tests are totally different, asking the dogs to do different things, one is not better than the other, and one does not require a better trained dog...... As far as my "heros" go, you have no idea what your talking about. My "heros" are the guys who are producing the top dogs in the country consistently, because IMO understanding genetics and what produces is the toughest part of competitive dog games.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by gundogguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:42 pm

To simplify I have viewed Tests and the title given as a factor based on the dogs temperament exhibition.. Trials and titles won based on the dogs talent, trials are a talent show. Tests are a temperament show
Which would you prefer "Good taste or good grammar"?

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:08 pm

Sometime Field trial dogs don't have to beat the competion and they still win. Example--Appleton(Pro) was running an all age dog(I won't mention the dog's name because the owner is still alive) in a stake and it was a 5 point major. It was hot weather and the dogs were going birdless or the ones that did have birds crashed. Instead of withholding all placements, they called Appleton's dog back(because it had a super good run but no birds). They put out a bird to make sure the dog pointed it and stayed in place thru the shot. The dog ran by the bird twice without pointing it, when it went by the third time a quiet whoa stopped the dog(dog still didn't know the bird was there). Appleton kicked the bird up, fired the gun, dog stayed put, and got a 5 point major win(that's half the points needed for it's FC and it had no clue a bird was there until it was kicked up) Did that performance beat the completion, no, but it got 1/2 it's FC points. It took this dog about 6 years of adult stakes to finish it's FC(finished it's FC in gun dog stakes because of old age under a different pro). By the way if a MH doesn't have a bird during it's running time, it doesn't get a do over to find a bird to find a bird :roll:
I've got more stories of field trial dogs that didn't beat the competion but they got a win and points but the above one is probably the worst one.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:10 am

Interesting. I was under the impression you could enter as many hunt tests as you needed, and do it as many times as required, to try and pass a hunt test. I didn't realize there was a limit.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by Timewise65 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:48 am

I've got more stories of field trial dogs that didn't beat the competion but they got a win and points but the above one is probably the worst one.[/quote]

I can only related from years of watching and running Retriever's in Hunt Tests and Trials for Retrievers.....

The reason for these "worst one's" is that both hunt tests and field trials are judged by people.....they have not developed a robot/computer to do the judging. As long as humans do the judging mistakes will be made.

But don't condemn the whole process because of a few mistakes or just bad judging! In Retriever's, these problems are the exception not the norm!

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by JONOV » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:11 am

Timewise65 wrote: I can only related from years of watching and running Retriever's in Hunt Tests and Trials for Retrievers.....

The reason for these "worst one's" is that both hunt tests and field trials are judged by people.....they have not developed a robot/computer to do the judging. As long as humans do the judging mistakes will be made.

But don't condemn the whole process because of a few mistakes or just bad judging! In Retriever's, these problems are the exception not the norm!
If it were so easy, everyone would do it. It isn't like earning a JH for your dog, where anyone training most dogs can get through it. Of course, there are exceptions.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by fuzznut » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:12 am

It was hot weather and the dogs were going birdless or the ones that did have birds crashed.
So the winner beat all those dog who went bridles or crashed and burned.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by fuzznut » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:22 am

When you are looking at a pedigree, you want to look for the depth of the pedigree. Meaning, is there one FC in the background or 10? Are there multiple MH's behind the names, or just a couple.

If you see a whole bunch of dogs in the background with performance titles, you will know that the breeders of those dogs cared enough to test the dogs either in trials or tests of some sort. If you don't see any FC/AFC/JH/MH etc. etc, then you know that those dogs back there may have been good dogs, just not proven good dogs. Not proven in any sort of trial or test.

You also want to check on health issues for the breed. Is there depth there as well, are their several generations with OFA #'s? Or whatever issue that may be in that breed.

I like to see a commonality in a pedigree... is a really good dog from the past in there more then once? Does it look like the breeders had a plan, or did they just toss dogs together to have a litter? To know any of this, you really need to find a mentor, someone who knows that breed, and the old dogs, and may be able to tell you something about them. Their good points and their down falls, their temperaments, what they produces, what they looked like and on, and on and on. You can learn a lot if you just listen to what people tell you, or don't tell you about a long gone dog.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:53 am

fuzznut wrote:
It was hot weather and the dogs were going birdless or the ones that did have birds crashed.
So the winner beat all those dog who went bridles or crashed and burned.
The dog that was called back did not have any birds on course--it was birdless during it's brace. It was called back after all dogs had ran(it had a very good run but no birds). They put a bird out 50 yards from the dog. The dog ran within 10 yards(downwind of the bird)twice with no point. On the 3rd time by the bird the handler gave a quiet whoa to the dog. It stopped but didn't know there was a bird there. Handler kicked the bird up and fired. Dog stayed. Dog was awarded a 5 point win for not finding a bird during it's brace, not finding the planted bird after the brace. It was whoad running by the bird(the 3rd time). It stood the bird, But it never ever found a bird on his own. To me this just doesn't warrant getting half the points towards it field champion title. In my opinion all placements should of been withheld :x JMO

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:55 am

I guess the judges saw something you didn't. That's not uncommon in trials.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by deseeker » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:32 pm

jetjockey wrote:I guess the judges saw something you didn't. That's not uncommon in trials.
The pro(Appleton) was the one telling me no way that his dog should of won---a real good run but nothing else. He said he'd take the win because the owner was getting growly because of not getting any placements---this dog would go birdless all the time-that's why it took 6 years of running adult stakes to get this dog finished. For 2 years I used to ride this dog's braces when he was around my area and Appleton was running him--I never did see him find a bird on any braces I road. :roll:

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by jetjockey » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:55 pm

Not 1 bird? Must of had some stupid owners willing to throw all that money away on a dog who couldn't find a bird. Even a blind squirl finds a nut now and then, especially at many of the throw down trials. I can't believe an honest trainer would continue to take the money from clients if he knew the dog was garbage, and I can't believe clients would continue to throw money away on a dog who couldn't find a bird. Doesn't really matter though because that would be the exception to the rule in the Brittany world. I don't know of one single Brittany who won 2-5 point stakes with no placements in between. Now, I have seen dogs who placed a lot but had trouble getting their 1 required major win, I've seen dogs who were awesome derbys and puppies that couldn't put it together as adults, but I've never seen a dog who only placed twice with 2-5 point wins to finish its FC. I could be wrong (Ive been a omg numerous times before) but something smells fishy.

I'm curious, when did this occur?

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:10 pm

Why would anyone ride so many braces of a worthless dog? And why would we spend so much time making sure everyone knows that trialing is a waste of time? There was a period many years ago when the pendulum swung to all run and little finding for AA dogs. I think it has come back a ways now but I still look at the gun/shooting dogs as what comes closest to what most people use dogs for, foothunting/pets.

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Re: Pedigree Help

Post by Ninevehn » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:09 am

The AKC also has specific hunt test titles for breeds that can participate in more than one kind of test. The 'U' is for retrievers that can run spaniel tests, and indicates their Upland ability. The titles are JHU, SHU and MHU.

The second kind is an 'R' for spaniels and pointing breeds that can run retriever tests, and indicates their water work. These are JHR, SHR and MHR. Neither of these titles seem that common to me, and they're newer than the others.

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