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I have ruined my dog

I have ruined my dog

Postby floss » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:43 pm

Hello, I am very concerned that I have ruined my 4 month old lab and have created an enemy.

This is my 4th black lab and the first one I am considering giving away. I have always owned english labs and this is my first field lab. I didn't realize what I was getting myself into with the purchased the field lab. To make matters worse, the dog I choose turned out to be the pack alpha and when I went to pick him up the breeder told me he was a bully and glad to see him go.

From very early on he had a mean bite. Like a lunge and thrash bite.

I talked to the breeder and they suggested leaving the room as soon as he started snapping. That didn't work. Then they suggested I pinch his lip. I think this was the root of the problem. I began pinching his lip and his bites would get worse. Then the breeder told me to alpha roll him. One time he bit my hand so badly that I think I hurt him out of frustration by flipping him on his back and pinning him. This sounds really violent, and believe me I hate myself more than anything for treating an animal like this.

The problem got worse. Anytime I take him to the park and sit down, he goes into attack mode and honestly looks like a pitbull ready to attack and rip my face off.

I just got back from the hospital after getting 3 stitches in my hand from one of his bites

My breeder suggested I get an e-collar and next attack give him a good one (6-7 on the Garmin Pro).. I just did and he went into killer mode. Snapping at my face etc.

Our breeder is extremely experienced however lives 2.5 hours away making visits very difficult. I live next to a field, however with kids roaming the street I am at a loss for what to do. There is a lot of good in this dog (he is amazing at fetching, sitting, rolling over, shaking both paws, staying, waving etc) it's just this violent nature I am deeply afraid of and I think he knows it..

Please help
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby RayGubernat » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:29 am

I don't think you should take the blame fort this. Your breeder sold you a POS that has no place in a home environment.

You know what needs to be done. I am sorry, and it sucks...but...it is what it is.

Euthanize the dog before he hurts someone other than yourself...and find yourself another breeder to work with, because the one you are dealing with now should not have sold you that dog and will likely try to stick you with some other POS. If one of his dogs is THAT aggressive...it is almost certainly in the bloodline of his kennel.

Walk away. Lesson learned.

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby ezzy333 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:41 pm

What Ray said is the only safe way to solve your problem which right now is minor to what it will be at sometime in the future. Hard to do but in this case just REALIZE YOU LIKE THE DOG A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN IT LIKES YOU. Nothing you are experiencing is your fault and the breeder should have pulled that pup before you ever bought it. there are many pups that are just as good and have a decent personality. DO IT NOW BEFORE IT GETS WORSE AND IT WILL

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Steve007 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:57 pm

It's just as easy to love a good one. This is not your fault.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby V-John » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:35 pm

A good breeder would take the dog back.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:46 pm

Having handled a lot of aggressive dogs (GSD, malinois, dutchies) when training dogs for protection, there is a way to stop this, but from what you wrote, I don't think you are capable of it. It is one of those things you have to do sometimes, and it usually works because the dog is somewhat thankful that you didn't kill him for his aggression. Kind of like handling a bad stud horse, you sometimes don't like yourself very well after you do it, but it has to be done, and someone has to do it. The dog can likely be fixed, I've seen several of them cured of handler aggression, and these certainly weren't 4 mo old labs, but very athletic and strong working dogs that were closer to a year old that didn't like corrections.

The first attempt, rolling him, is sound advice, and is the first thing to try, so I'll give the breeder that one. The dogs I have worked, you sure weren't going to pinch their lip, not twice with the same hand anyway!
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:56 pm

By the way, don't euthanize the dog, he may make a good dog. The right person can fix him, but it's not the kind of correction that a lot of people are capable of using.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Sharon » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:22 pm

jstevens wrote:By the way, don't euthanize the dog, he may make a good dog. The right person can fix him, but it's not the kind of correction that a lot of people are capable of using.


I don't think so. I'm with Ray and Others on this. Not your fault ; don't put him on to somebody else. The breeder did warn you up front so I don't think he/she can be expected to take the dog back.

I put down a similar in habits JRT once; sometimes it is the wisest decision.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:27 pm

why would you put down a dog if you could give him to someone who could fix him?
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby floss » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:49 pm

The breeder is going to take a look at him two weeks from now when he returns from spring break. In the meantime when I am on a walk and he turns on me and has the look to kill in his eyes, how should I best handle him? I own an e-collar and prong collar. I haven't fully introduced him to the e-collar yet so please keep that in mind. I can still out power him, I'm just mostly afaid of him going for my face.

And thanks for all the feedback.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby bobman » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:13 pm

Jstevens is correct

that breeders advice was stupid and yes the right guy can fix this dog it's only 4 months old

The OP is not going to get it done IMO he's waaayyy to soft hearted if he felt bad rolling the dog hard, he's not tough enough and I am not being nasty just honest. This pup needs a serious come to Jesus meeting now while he's young.

" leave the room" hahaha that's almost funny what a stupid thing to suggest
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby ezzy333 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:19 pm

jstevens wrote:why would you put down a dog if you could give him to someone who could fix him?


I can only give you a few reasons the dog should be put down such as the person you give it to can and probably will sue you if the dog injures someone. And you saying you told the individual he was unstable will only cause you more problems and result in greater punishment. The dog should never be bred or even b4e where it can harm the reputation of the breed. And the greatest problem is the injuries he can cost in the future. So tell me why anyone would want to try and fix an unstable dog when there are thousands out there to choose from. We have prisons for people who are unstable because we don't believe in putting most down but even there we do put down people who are dangerous to other people. Dogs do not deserve to be saved when they demonstrate they can't be trusted.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby cjhills » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:22 pm

This may be the only time I agree with both R.G. and Ezzy but there is no good reason for anybody to breed a dog like that and even less reason to sell the pup to some
one you know will not e able to handle it. the breeder should take the dog back. Telling the buyer the dog was a bully certainly should not get him off the hook.....Cj
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
jstevens wrote:why would you put down a dog if you could give him to someone who could fix him?


I can only give you a few reasons the dog should be put down such as the person you give it to can and probably will sue you if the dog injures someone. And you saying you told the individual he was unstable will only cause you more problems and result in greater punishment. The dog should never be bred or even b4e where it can harm the reputation of the breed. And the greatest problem is the injuries he can cost in the future. So tell me why anyone would want to try and fix an unstable dog when there are thousands out there to choose from. We have prisons for people who are unstable because we don't believe in putting most down but even there we do put down people who are dangerous to other people. Dogs do not deserve to be saved when they demonstrate they can't be trusted.


Did I say to sell the dog???? I said it would be better to give the dog away to someone who can fix it! I can fix the dog in one or two sessions. There are probably 5000 working police, military dogs doing patrol/bomb detection/drug detection in service right now that have had handler aggression and been cured. Just because you haven't tried, or seen it done, doesn't mean it can't be done!

I sure didn't recommend that anyone breed the dog either!
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby DougB » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:41 pm

Find a good dog trainer. One who has experience with aggressive dogs. Have the dog evaluated by someone trained in dealing with aggression. Some like the challenge, some just don't like killing dogs. Check with your local breeders, vets, rescues, training groups, maybe the local yellow pages or want ads. Putting a dog down is the last step, especially with a healthy dog that will work.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby polmaise » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:07 pm

jstevens wrote:why would you put down a dog if you could give him to someone who could fix him?

Why would the person Who can fix it want to take it ?
If the Owner wants it fixed ,then I'm sure this is the way forward for the dog . But There is a price to pay. Probably / nah ..definitely more than the price paid for the puppy !!...So who pays the 'piper' ? ....
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby madmurph » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:28 pm

The original post seems a bit "trollish" to me. Member's first post, not a hunter, seems to place some of the blame on the fact that the dog is field bred, JUST returned from the hospital, JUST used the shock collar, dog already excels at all kinds of tricks. Just sayin'.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby floss » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:14 pm

madmurph wrote:The original post seems a bit "trollish" to me. Member's first post, not a hunter, seems to place some of the blame on the fact that the dog is field bred, JUST returned from the hospital, JUST used the shock collar, dog already excels at all kinds of tricks. Just sayin'.


Sorry that you feel that way. I'm not a hunter but spend solo weekends in the woods camping. So far in athletic capibility I think field labs are terrific and the best I've ever seen. I bought a clicker and spent about 20 minutes every single day working on tricks with him I learned on youtube. I ordered the shock collar off gun dog supply and everything I read told me only to use it after progress from the leash. Breeder told me to give him a good one, so I did.. Came to this forum because everyother source on the Internet was too soft.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:32 pm

First of all, it can't be a reputable breeder if he produced and sold a pup like that. The pup is mentally unbalanced.

Second, the breeder should take him back, no questions asked, and refund your money in full.

Third, the Alpha roll is a very dangerous maneuver and I don't recommend it.

Fourth, the only thing I'd tell you to try is to bite him back HARD. When he growls at you, snaps, or bites, immediately grab and pinch his nose closed, then bite him HARD right on the end of the nose with a sharp NO! Command. Then immediately push him away. This is a dangerous move in itself IF YOU DON'T CLAMP THE MUZZLE SHUT. Howerver, it is highly effective on pups. It's the same thing the mother would do.

If that doesn't work, you're probably screwed. Euthanize the pup. Don't give someone else your problems.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby polmaise » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:36 pm

madmurph wrote:The original post seems a bit "trollish" to me. Member's first post, not a hunter, seems to place some of the blame on the fact that the dog is field bred, JUST returned from the hospital, JUST used the shock collar, dog already excels at all kinds of tricks. Just sayin'.

That was my first thought !! But have been slated in the past for not giving the benefit of the doubt ....ie pc . :mrgreen:
Mega buzz words like 'Alfa roll' !! ..pfft. dog gon it ! :roll:
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:11 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:First of all, it can't be a reputable breeder if he produced and sold a pup like that. The pup is mentally unbalanced.

Second, the breeder should take him back, no questions asked, and refund your money in full.

Third, the Alpha roll is a very dangerous maneuver and I don't recommend it.

Fourth, the only thing I'd tell you to try is to bite him back HARD. When he growls at you, snaps, or bites, immediately grab and pinch his nose closed, then bite him HARD right on the end of the nose with a sharp NO! Command. Then immediately push him away. This is a dangerous move in itself IF YOU DON'T CLAMP THE MUZZLE SHUT. Howerver, it is highly effective on pups. It's the same thing the mother would do.

If that doesn't work, you're probably screwed. Euthanize the pup. Don't give someone else your problems.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the breeder should, and probably would take him back.

Secondly, I'd pay good money to watch you bite back a handler aggressive malinois or dutch shepherd that was four or five months old! They love the fight, and they'd hit you so fast when you pushed them back, you wouldn't stand a chance.

Maybe the guy is a troll, don't know.

I've played around enough, you solve handler aggression by 'hanging up' a dog. Google hanging a handler aggressive dog, or dominant dog collar. You'll get the idea. It isn't pretty, but it is the only cure, and it's better than killing the dog, much the same as it's better to use an e collar than it is to get your dog crippled by a car because he won't recall. First off, I'm not scared to get bit, I've probably been bit more in a month training a young dog than anyone on this board has been in their life. A 4 month old lab would be a piece of cake, compared to a mal or dutch shepherd of the same age. Not in the same class. the dog is fixable.

May just be a troll, who knows?
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby ezzy333 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:40 pm

Jay,

You are amazing. You have put each and everyone of us in a box along with what we know and what we don't. I have no idea what you know and don't know other than what you have posted. And from that I do know you are claiming more than what is yours. I have no problem with what you like and what you don't, what you know and what you don't, and what you do and what you don't. One thing I do know is you are just another person like everyone else on here that has a dog and has trained it to some degree. That is good. I also know you have set yourself up as a little further advanced than anyone else and I doubted that was true and after each post I am sure it isn't true. You have been talking to people who have owned and trained their dogs for longer than you, people who have owned and trained dogs professionally longer than you, and a couple of us that have bumbled our way along with our dogs longer than you. The only thing I have heard you say that maybe makes sense is you have been bitten more than any of us and somehow that does not strike me as a plus in your resume'.

You may be right when you say the dog can be fixed and you may be completely wrong. So once again I want you to tell us why this dog should be saved while we are outing others asleep just because they are walking the street?

And by the way , you do know I am sure that the guard and police dogs are trained and coming from Europe because they are more stable than what you find here in our country. And their trainers have never bragged about how often they have been bit.

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby setterpoint » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:50 pm

have you talked to the breeder mayby you could work somthing out he might take the dog back and give you half price on another also find some one who has worked with this befor a trainer of some one thats worked on aggressive dogs i will say its a shame this pup would be put down try ever thing you can then if it has to be done you can say you tried ever thing first
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby bobman » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:34 pm

Jays right you set the dog up, (I've used my deck with the same screw eye I hang deer with) then you run a rope thru a pulley on that eye to the dogs choke collar and when he goes to bite you, up he goes.

You hang the pup till he passes out, it's ain't pretty and timing is important but that's how it's done.

Any good protection dog trainer could show you how or bring that dog around for you.

I think I would just choke the living daylights out of a 4 month old lab pup with my hands. I am 6'4 280, a small person should use the rope setup.

The pup would of never got to this point if he was mine though.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:38 pm

jstevens wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:First of all, it can't be a reputable breeder if he produced and sold a pup like that. The pup is mentally unbalanced.

Second, the breeder should take him back, no questions asked, and refund your money in full.

Third, the Alpha roll is a very dangerous maneuver and I don't recommend it.

Fourth, the only thing I'd tell you to try is to bite him back HARD. When he growls at you, snaps, or bites, immediately grab and pinch his nose closed, then bite him HARD right on the end of the nose with a sharp NO! Command. Then immediately push him away. This is a dangerous move in itself IF YOU DON'T CLAMP THE MUZZLE SHUT. Howerver, it is highly effective on pups. It's the same thing the mother would do.

If that doesn't work, you're probably screwed. Euthanize the pup. Don't give someone else your problems.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the breeder should, and probably would take him back.

Secondly, I'd pay good money to watch you bite back a handler aggressive malinois or dutch shepherd that was four or five months old! They love the fight, and they'd hit you so fast when you pushed them back, you wouldn't stand a chance.

Maybe the guy is a troll, don't know.

I've played around enough, you solve handler aggression by 'hanging up' a dog. Google hanging a handler aggressive dog, or dominant dog collar. You'll get the idea. It isn't pretty, but it is the only cure, and it's better than killing the dog, much the same as it's better to use an e collar than it is to get your dog crippled by a car because he won't recall. First off, I'm not scared to get bit, I've probably been bit more in a month training a young dog than anyone on this board has been in their life. A 4 month old lab would be a piece of cake, compared to a mal or dutch shepherd of the same age. Not in the same class. the dog is fixable.

May just be a troll, who knows?



It isn't a Malinois, it's a four month old lab puppy.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Meller » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:13 pm

Maybe the original poster could reveal where he lives, and have the pup evaluated by someone other than the breeder or himself!
Just a thought.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby bustingcover » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:04 am

I'm curious how old the dog is and how old was it when you picked him up.

If this dog is grown I'd suggest putting him down. Not going to be any better than a well tempered dog and even if he turns out to be world class, he'd be a liability to breed to with that temperament.

If its a young puppy I'd get it evaluated by someone who knows what they're doing.

Edit: Just re read and saw the dog is 4 months old. Give the dog to someone who knows what they're doing.
Last edited by bustingcover on Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:52 am

ezzy333 wrote:Jay,

You are amazing. You have put each and everyone of us in a box along with what we know and what we don't. I have no idea what you know and don't know other than what you have posted. And from that I do know you are claiming more than what is yours. I have no problem with what you like and what you don't, what you know and what you don't, and what you do and what you don't. One thing I do know is you are just another person like everyone else on here that has a dog and has trained it to some degree. That is good. I also know you have set yourself up as a little further advanced than anyone else and I doubted that was true and after each post I am sure it isn't true. You have been talking to people who have owned and trained their dogs for longer than you, people who have owned and trained dogs professionally longer than you, and a couple of us that have bumbled our way along with our dogs longer than you. The only thing I have heard you say that maybe makes sense is you have been bitten more than any of us and somehow that does not strike me as a plus in your resume'.

You may be right when you say the dog can be fixed and you may be completely wrong. So once again I want you to tell us why this dog should be saved while we are outing others asleep just because they are walking the street?

And by the way , you do know I am sure that the guard and police dogs are trained and coming from Europe because they are more stable than what you find here in our country. And their trainers have never bragged about how often they have been bit.
I'm 60, I grew up on a cattle farm with border collies, pointers, foxhounds, and coonhounds. I'm sure there are some that have trained more than me, but that doesn't change that I know how to deal with a handler aggressive dog. I have been bitten more because I have worked with several working dogs, which is why I have more experience with handler aggression. I have a malinois in the chair next to me now from Europe. I don't make any claim to be more 'advanced', but every word I said about how to cure one is true and has been done thousands of times. Read bobman's post, he describes the process, it's ugly, you feel bad when you do it, but it saves the dog. The fact that a dog has that aggression doesn't mean he is going to be worthless at his intended purpose.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby jstevens » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:55 am

bobman wrote:Jays right you set the dog up, (I've used my deck with the same screw eye I hang deer with) then you run a rope thru a pulley on that eye to the dogs choke collar and when he goes to bite you, up he goes.

You hang the pup till he passes out, it's ain't pretty and timing is important but that's how it's done.

Any good protection dog trainer could show you how or bring that dog around for you.

I think I would just choke the living daylights out of a 4 month old lab pup with my hands. I am 6'4 280, a small person should use the rope setup.

The pup would of never got to this point if he was mine though.


That's the ugly process, yes this one is small enough, I'd just let him bite, then lift him up on his lead. As you said, anyone with experience with protection dog training is familiar with this fix, it's nothing new.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby CWT » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:18 am

Strange the OP has not responded. I am not a professional but I can say with 99% certainty that a 4 month old lab would not be acting that way around me. Pinch the dogs lip? where did that gibberish come from?
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby crackerd » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:54 am

madmurph wrote:The original post seems a bit "trollish" to me. Member's first post, not a hunter, seems to place some of the blame on the fact that the dog is field bred, JUST returned from the hospital, JUST used the shock collar, dog already excels at all kinds of tricks. Just sayin'.


Indeed. A 4-month-old killer Lab! Oh, wait a minute, make that a 16-week-old killer Lab puppy! Seen plenty of those, they're a dime a dozen, right?, but they're never "English" Labs like the OP's had before - and undoubtedly never had to have an e-collar used on them for their temperament. Give me a break on this claptrap and some of the "snookered's" responses here...

MG
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby bobman » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:06 am

[
crackerd wrote:
madmurph wrote:The original post seems a bit "trollish" to me. Member's first post, not a hunter, seems to place some of the blame on the fact that the dog is field bred, JUST returned from the hospital, JUST used the shock collar, dog already excels at all kinds of tricks. Just sayin'.


Indeed. A 4-month-old killer Lab! Oh, wait a minute, make that a 16-week-old killer Lab puppy! Seen plenty of those, they're a dime a dozen, right?, but they're never "English" Labs like the OP's had before - and undoubtedly never had to have an e-collar used on them for their temperament. Give me a break on this claptrap and some of the "snookered's" responses here...

MG


you never can tell LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmu5sRIizdw
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby crackerd » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:25 am

Funny you should mention "killer rabbits." One of my training partners was running a field trial down your way last week and one of the spectators came over to ask about her young Lab he'd just seen run in the derby. She texted our training group a photo taken of her and another lady trialer with that spectator, who happened to be ex-President Carter, and I instantly texted back: "DO NOT DARE ask him if 'killer rabbits' are still interrupting his flyfishing reveries!..."

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby CWT » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:48 am

To the OP. If you are in NC bring me the dog and his vaccination records. Come back and pick him up in a week. He will be as good as new or your money back.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Timewise65 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:04 am

I have owned and trained field bred retrievers most of my adult life! Only once have I had a dog that had the type of behavior you mention. Like you I talked to a lot of people including trainers, breeders, etc. etc. I purchased this dog from a vet breeder in Texas and the stud used was a dog with a long list of Field Trial titles. He had the pedigree of a top field dog.

The dog bit my adult son when he was trying to take a wine cork out of his mouth, after it had been dropped. He was only 3 months old, and like many said on here, he just needed to be properly trained, no big deal. I decided to take him to an obedience puppy class ,when he was around 4 months old, and work with him around other dogs, and with a trainer who had much more experience than I. Although, the dog showed he was trainable, he dang near attacked another retriever in the room on our last night. Fortunately, I had him on lead and it just was a lot of growling and sneering without contact. After the class was over the trainer running the class asked me to stay after class. He shared with me a concern that he picked up with my dog. He said he saw definite signs of an aggressive dog that could be dangerous. He advised me to call the breeder and ask her to take him back. I did make that call and after a long talk I decided to stay with this dog (big mistake).

I later took the dog to a guy who specialized in field training retrievers that were difficult to control. Our boy spent 3 months with the trainer learning fundamental retrieving. I went out and work with him as often as possible. At the end of 3 months this pup was force fetched, conditioned to collar, and ready to pass most AKC Junior Hunter tests. Which we proceeded to do. I thought we had it made as I transition his training to working on handling, lining, whistle stops, etc. Then one night I was setting watching TV and Max (his name) was sitting next to me. He as younger than a year, maybe 7-8 months. Anyway, I was not watching him but was scratching his chest, and he took me! He grabbed my hand and began shaking it. I had read that if your dog takes you like this, especially when they are younger and easy to control, that you should dominate them on their back until the look away and relax. So using the hand already in his mouth I grabbed his lower jaw, took him down on his back and held him down tightly so he could not get away. He struggled for a while and finally I could feel him relax and he turned his head away and stopped looking at me. I then slowly took my bleeding hand out of his mouth a started to back off of him. Yep, you guessed it, he took my hand again...and the battle was on. I tried holding him down again, and again he relaxed. Except this time when I got my hand free I stood up putting my arms to my side and looked away. He went to his kennel and that was that....off to the ER I went. The hand healed but I know knew I had a potentially dangerous dog. I then took him to a local 'dog behaviorist' he set down with us and had Max set by him, he slowly touched Max's chest with a pencil and he immediately started snarling and sneering. Scared the guy to death...end result we had to have Max put down...!

I will never keep a dog again that shows aggression against me or other dogs.....

Be very careful.....I wasn't!
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:10 am

I am not taking a position on whether this pup can be straighten out or not since it is my experience some can and some can't. What I am trying to convey is the effort to straighten it out worth the effort since there is the very real danger it will happen again after you think it is OK. I have decided for my self at least I will not give an unstable dog the chance to do great bodily harm to someone or a small child when there are so many better choices crying for a chance to be in your home.

If you feel winning is the ultimate success in owning a pet of any kind then have at it but make sure that animal is never in a position to harm anyone. That is the very least you can do as a responsible pet owner. I have seen several breeds of dogs almost ruined by trialers and show people who become so narrow minded that stability is not important as long as the dog can win at their preferred venues. The St. Bernard and the show type Springers are examples and I have seen problems to a lesser extent in some of our sporting breeds. It is a shame we even have to question temperament when w are looking for a puppy, but sadly we do.

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:14 am

Timewise65 wrote:I have owned and trained field bred retrievers most of my adult life! Only once have I had a dog that had the type of behavior you mention. Like you I talked to a lot of people including trainers, breeders, etc. etc. I purchased this dog from a vet breeder in Texas and the stud used was a dog with a long list of Field Trial titles. He had the pedigree of a top field dog.

The dog bit my adult son when he was trying to take a wine cork out of his mouth, after it had been dropped. He was only 3 months old, and like many said on here, he just needed to be properly trained, no big deal. I decided to take him to an obedience puppy class ,when he was around 4 months old, and work with him around other dogs, and with a trainer who had much more experience than I. Although, the dog showed he was trainable, he dang near attacked another retriever in the room on our last night. Fortunately, I had him on lead and it just was a lot of growling and sneering without contact. After the class was over the trainer running the class asked me to stay after class. He shared with me a concern that he picked up with my dog. He said he saw definite signs of an aggressive dog that could be dangerous. He advised me to call the breeder and ask her to take him back. I did make that call and after a long talk I decided to stay with this dog (big mistake).

I later took the dog to a guy who specialized in field training retrievers that were difficult to control. Our boy spent 3 months with the trainer learning fundamental retrieving. I went out and work with him as often as possible. At the end of 3 months this pup was force fetched, conditioned to collar, and ready to pass most AKC Junior Hunter tests. Which we proceeded to do. I thought we had it made as I transition his training to working on handling, lining, whistle stops, etc. Then one night I was setting watching TV and Max (his name) was sitting next to me. He as younger than a year, maybe 7-8 months. Anyway, I was not watching him but was scratching his chest, and he took me! He grabbed my hand and began shaking it. I had read that if your dog takes you like this, especially when they are younger and easy to control, that you should dominate them on their back until the look away and relax. So using the hand already in his mouth I grabbed his lower jaw, took him down on his back and held him down tightly so he could not get away. He struggled for a while and finally I could feel him relax and he turned his head away and stopped looking at me. I then slowly took my bleeding hand out of his mouth a started to back off of him. Yep, you guessed it, he took my hand again...and the battle was on. I tried holding him down again, and again he relaxed. Except this time when I got my hand free I stood up putting my arms to my side and looked away. He went to his kennel and that was that....off to the ER I went. The hand healed but I know knew I had a potentially dangerous dog. I then took him to a local 'dog behaviorist' he set down with us and had Max set by him, he slowly touched Max's chest with a pencil and he immediately started snarling and sneering. Scared the guy to death...end result we had to have Max put down...!

I will never keep a dog again that shows aggression against me or other dogs.....

Be very careful.....I wasn't!

That is an excellent and realistic post. I have trained dog's like that and they are NEVER trustworthy. There are some dog's that are just bad dog's. I have one we made an FC out of but I don't know how many times he chewed the owner up. Your post is a no BS, honest post.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:15 am

If there are children involved, the plot really thickens. I would absolutely NEVER put a dog like that around children IF he could not be trusted.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby crackerd » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:50 am

[Timewise made] an excellent and realistic post. I have trained dog's like that and they are NEVER trustworthy. There are some dog's that are just bad dog's. I have one we made an FC out of but I don't know how many times he chewed the owner up. Your post is a no BS, honest post.


I agree, GH, and you can't argue with what someone's own eyes (and skin) have experienced. And I've known a couple of "powerful" Labs, yes, FCs too, that got after their owners something fierce. But to me that was down to a "self-defense" mode for the training given ("administered to") them. (Of the "boot, shoot and electrocute" MO, if you recall those days.) Also believe this could happen with any breed, some more than others, but having a hard time applying it it to a 16-week-old puppy - or even 12 weeks as Timewise experienced. Also can't see any recommendation from a responsible Lab breeder to juice the pup at that age with a high-6 or 7 as punishment or to ward off an "attack" - if anything that could further trigger the aggression if it was already there in the first place.

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Trekmoor » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:46 am

First of all I will say that my experience of very aggressive dogs is minimal . The first really aggressive dog I ever encountered was ,believe it or not, a trainee guide dog lab ! He was seriously big ,95 lbs fit weight and he was aggressive whenever he was confronted in any way. One of the trainers had been an R.A.F. police dog trainer and he took on this dog. The dog was "strung up" until it submitted and it never challenged that man again .....but it would still challenge anyone else. The dog was put to sleep.

A few years later I got a 10 months old border collie male from the local cat and dog home and trained him as both an obedience arena dog and as a gun dog. He was aggressive towards other male dogs and he could be aggressive towards people too. He went to the top as an obedience competition dog but I could never fully trust him. He attacked an old ladies on lead dog one day and I then had him P.T.S. ......... I should have done that earlier but, I am ashamed to say, I liked winning in the obedience ring. :roll:

My advice therefor is to have this pup P.T.S. . Keeping such a dog is like having a gun with a very dodgy firing mechanism.

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby bobman » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

I will say this and I'm not slighting anyone.... if you have to take a dog to a obedience class or like the OP are feeling bad for getting tough with the dog it would be a good idea to find a guy that feels comfortable training the dog himself and giving it to him with full disclosure.

I would never give up on a 4 month old dog but that's just me.

The OP is way out of his league with this pup.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby crackerd » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:32 pm

Trekmoor wrote:My advice therefor is to have this pup P.T.S. . Keeping such a dog is like having a gun with a very dodgy firing mechanism.


Bill, "keeping such a dog" is as you say, but antennae up on this thread about a puppy being what you lot call a windup - everything from the thread title ("I have ruined my dog," from which proceeds a litany of the puppy's transgressions, not misdeeds from the purported "dog ruiner") to advice (and from the breeder yet) to use an e-collar on a puppy at the highest level for "breaking" it of aggression.

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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby JONOV » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:25 pm

4 Months? Stitches already? My 5'0 Fiance could handle a 4 month old lab with a crappy attitude. My 60 year mother could, too.

I hate to simply recommend a whooping for a dog with an attitude problem, but honestly, I have a hard time believing that a 4 month old dog is sending you to the hospital.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:04 pm

It can happen Jonov. I got a new DD pup this year, had her shipped in at 8 weeks. I took her to the vet and had her checked. The vet looked in her ear for wax, the ear having just been tattooed. The pup yipped and bit her, drawing blood. So, it can happen.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Sharon » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:10 pm

Timewise65 wrote:I have owned and trained field bred retrievers most of my adult life! Only once have I had a dog that had the type of behavior you mention. Like you I talked to a lot of people including trainers, breeders, etc. etc. I purchased this dog from a vet breeder in Texas and the stud used was a dog with a long list of Field Trial titles. He had the pedigree of a top field dog.

The dog bit my adult son when he was trying to take a wine cork out of his mouth, after it had been dropped. He was only 3 months old, and like many said on here, he just needed to be properly trained, no big deal. I decided to take him to an obedience puppy class ,when he was around 4 months old, and work with him around other dogs, and with a trainer who had much more experience than I. Although, the dog showed he was trainable, he dang near attacked another retriever in the room on our last night. Fortunately, I had him on lead and it just was a lot of growling and sneering without contact. After the class was over the trainer running the class asked me to stay after class. He shared with me a concern that he picked up with my dog. He said he saw definite signs of an aggressive dog that could be dangerous. He advised me to call the breeder and ask her to take him back. I did make that call and after a long talk I decided to stay with this dog (big mistake).

I later took the dog to a guy who specialized in field training retrievers that were difficult to control. Our boy spent 3 months with the trainer learning fundamental retrieving. I went out and work with him as often as possible. At the end of 3 months this pup was force fetched, conditioned to collar, and ready to pass most AKC Junior Hunter tests. Which we proceeded to do. I thought we had it made as I transition his training to working on handling, lining, whistle stops, etc. Then one night I was setting watching TV and Max (his name) was sitting next to me. He as younger than a year, maybe 7-8 months. Anyway, I was not watching him but was scratching his chest, and he took me! He grabbed my hand and began shaking it. I had read that if your dog takes you like this, especially when they are younger and easy to control, that you should dominate them on their back until the look away and relax. So using the hand already in his mouth I grabbed his lower jaw, took him down on his back and held him down tightly so he could not get away. He struggled for a while and finally I could feel him relax and he turned his head away and stopped looking at me. I then slowly took my bleeding hand out of his mouth a started to back off of him. Yep, you guessed it, he took my hand again...and the battle was on. I tried holding him down again, and again he relaxed. Except this time when I got my hand free I stood up putting my arms to my side and looked away. He went to his kennel and that was that....off to the ER I went. The hand healed but I know knew I had a potentially dangerous dog. I then took him to a local 'dog behaviorist' he set down with us and had Max set by him, he slowly touched Max's chest with a pencil and he immediately started snarling and sneering. Scared the guy to death...end result we had to have Max put down...!

I will never keep a dog again that shows aggression against me or other dogs.....

Be very careful.....I wasn't!



Excellent post.
As I rescue JRTs I've seen many poorly - bred aggressive dogs. Many can not be trusted and precautions have to be taken even when allowed to live. This one now must be muzzled when walking around the block and when I have company. Learned that lesson the hard way when he jumped up and grabbed my visiting brother in law by the shoulder- dog is 23 pounds. Even a 4 month old dog can be dangerous.
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby Timewise65 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:23 pm

That is an excellent and realistic post. I have trained dog's like that and they are NEVER trustworthy. There are some dog's that are just bad dog's. I have one we made an FC out of but I don't know how many times he chewed the owner up. Your post is a no BS, honest post.[/quote]

gonehuntin....thanks for your comments....you are correct this is a shortened version of what actually happened. It was a painful lesson and I have the scars to prove it. Actually, before we put him down, he took me one other time, guess I had a thick head or something. Now along with the scares on my hand, I have arthritis in the joints of that hand. So I am frequently reminded of my poor judgement.....when we love the animals so much, we tend to overlook the obvious.....now with more than a few years past this lesson and another 4-5 hunting dogs under my bealt, it is really clear to me now, sometimes you have to cut your losses and move on.....fortunately, only my adult son and I were bitten, none of my Grandkids or Spouses of my kids were bitten...I let know one around ole Max after he took me the first time.

I still feel bad about putting him down, but it was the right thing to do....even though I was slow to figure that out! :roll:
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Re: I have ruined my dog

Postby JONOV » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:32 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:It can happen Jonov. I got a new DD pup this year, had her shipped in at 8 weeks. I took her to the vet and had her checked. The vet looked in her ear for wax, the ear having just been tattooed. The pup yipped and bit her, drawing blood. So, it can happen.

I understand that it can happen.
My GWP drew blood a time or two as a puppy, but that was more a puppy teeth thing.
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