AKC JH Test question

Post Reply
Mumpy
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Fort Benning Georgia

AKC JH Test question

Post by Mumpy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:16 am

When the dog goes on point, can you say anything to the dog?

madmurph
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by madmurph » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:44 am

Yes you can. I would avoid over hacking or over handling however, as this will reflect in your score in the trainability category. A junior hunting dog is expected to show reasonable obedience to the handlers commands and hold point until the handler is within normal gun range.

Mumpy
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Fort Benning Georgia

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by Mumpy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:16 am

So, just so I'm clear. The dog goes on point, I can then say Whoa so I can get within gun range?

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:32 pm

Mumpy wrote:So, just so I'm clear. The dog goes on point, I can then say Whoa so I can get within gun range?
There is no reason to whoa a junior dog. The dog does not need to hold until you get within gun range. You get no points for steady to wing and shot.
If you are within shot gun range when the bird flushes you fire the blank gun, if not, don't it makes no difference.................Cj

madmurph
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by madmurph » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:24 pm

This is from page 21 in the Regulations for AKC Hunting Tests for Pointing Breeds manual:

If the handler
is within reasonable gun range of a bird which has been
flushed after a point, a blank cartridge must be fired by
the handler. Junior hunting dogs must hold point until
the handler gets within normal gunshot range. This
requirement should be tempered by practical considerations
such as the dog’s distance from the handler when it finds
a bird. Junior hunting dogs must also show reasonable
obedience to their handler’s commands.

Mumpy
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Fort Benning Georgia

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by Mumpy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:54 pm

cjhills wrote:
Mumpy wrote:So, just so I'm clear. The dog goes on point, I can then say Whoa so I can get within gun range?
There is no reason to whoa a junior dog. The dog does not need to hold until you get within gun range. You get no points for steady to wing and shot.
If you are within shot gun range when the bird flushes you fire the blank gun, if not, don't it makes no difference.................Cj
I appreciate everyone's input here, this is my first test. So, lets say the dog goes on point "outside of gun range" and as we're walking to the dog, the dog flushes the bird. Obviously I don't fire a shot... Does the dog get graded poorly because he flushed before I got within gun range? Because, IF he does, then when he goes on point, I could easily tell him Whoa and he'll let me walk in and flush the bird. That's what I'm getting at, If I can prevent him busting the bird by saying "whoa" then why not give the command?

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:04 pm

I guess if you whoa the dog and he breaks you could have a problem with trainability.
You can quietly caution a senior or master dog on point once they have established a point. So I do not see why you couldn't do the same with a junior. But if you yell "whoa"
From 200 yds away or whoa him into a point you would probably be in trouble.
What is normal shotgun range? 50 yds? I do not know if I have ever seen a junior dog DQ
for breaking on point because the handler was out of range......................Cj

User avatar
SwitchGrassWPG
Rank: Champion
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: NW Oklahoma

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:20 pm

Give a whoa if you want...if the dog will obey. Fire the shot! Most judges are liberal with the definition of "gun range" with a junior dog.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3307
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:34 am

Mumpy -

I don't do hunt tests, but if I did and my junior hunter went on point and then rousted the bird out...I'd fire a blank and then call the dog back in to me ... no matter how far away it was.

I personally do not usually whoa a dog around birds, even in training. The scent of the bird should be the stimulus that screams "Whoa" to the dog. If it does not...I have more yardwork to do. But that is just me. I don't care what the standards are for the test , or trial, or whatever. My dog has, at a minimum, to stand its bird...until I get there. Anything less is not acceptable to me and simply means I didn't do my preparation well enough with that particular dog. We have more training to do.

If a youngster dives in after establishing... THAT is what the checkcord and/or e-collar is for. If a dog does break in training, I call it in to me after nicking it with the e-collar, walk it off at heel, re-set and go find another bird. Obviously you do not have the collar or checkcord available at a test, but you can call the dog in and regain control of the dog and the situation and do a "re-set".

But my personal standard may well be more strict than what is required for the JH test...soooo...go with what the test requires if you are doing the test.

I guess my advice would be to do what you would do in training, shoot your gun to allow the judges the opportunity to give the dog full credit and then let the judges figure it out. They will. If you do not shoot your gun, you may take the decision out of the judge's hands.

RayG

User avatar
Tooling
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by Tooling » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:44 am

I’ll throw out a word of caution to anyone considering a JH test.

If your dog has any degree of steadiness, inherent or trained, I’d say shy far away from JH altogether..especially if you are not familiar with tests and the "helpers" that you will encounter. JMO

GSPONPOINT32
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:42 pm

AKC JH Test question

Post by GSPONPOINT32 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:05 am

Tooling wrote:I’ll throw out a word of caution to anyone considering a JH test.

If your dog has any degree of steadiness, inherent or trained, I’d say shy far away from JH altogether..especially if you are not familiar with tests and the "helpers" that you will encounter. JMO
????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Tooling
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by Tooling » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:30 am

GSPONPOINT32 wrote:
Tooling wrote:I’ll throw out a word of caution to anyone considering a JH test.

If your dog has any degree of steadiness, inherent or trained, I’d say shy far away from JH altogether..especially if you are not familiar with tests and the "helpers" that you will encounter. JMO
????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Too many variables that can take your dog backwards in a hurry. If the owner is truly new to bird dogs and has a pup that has only been mildly exposed to bird work, then sure..it's a good thing. Beyond that, I think it's better to work straight toward senior if you would like to pursue the dog games and have a dog that has had a fair bit of exposure. Again, JMO.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:44 am

I never trained for JH since it more of a natural ability test but I sure didn't shy away from them.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:00 am

Be aware that the dog is pretty much place oriented and will learn to pick up on the situation. They learn very quickly that they can do things when they are in a test situation that they can not do in training. The only advantage to junior tests is they give you a chance to learn a bit about handling. They do not do much for the dog. Most tests have quail that are poor or non flying making it very easy for the dog to catch the bird.
When the get to a higher level they will try the same thing. For this reason we skip junior, actually we only do Master..........Cj

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by Sharon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:14 pm

I found judges to be very lenient with first time participants. Relax and have fun. All tests , including Jr., are a great way to make friends and learn. Now that AF walking trials are too much for me, I may go back to tests.

( I once walked off the field with my dog without shooting ever. :oops: The judge called us back and set us up for a shoot.)

It couldn't go worse than this agility test. :)

https://youtu.be/A4N7G29GWQI

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:37 pm

cjhills wrote:Be aware that the dog is pretty much place oriented and will learn to pick up on the situation. They learn very quickly that they can do things when they are in a test situation that they can not do in training.
Whilst I mostly agree with much that you post cj.............
This statement never really fitted well with me no matter who says it and it's said a lot by many (one of them 'cliche's' ,or urban myths) IMO.
In context , I don't know about the complexities of jh tests , but I do know that if one is training any dog for any test ,then every day training should be as if you were in that test . (standard) . Come the day of the test , it's just another training day (another cliche' ) :)

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:15 pm

Robert, I agree.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:25 pm

polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote:Be aware that the dog is pretty much place oriented and will learn to pick up on the situation. They learn very quickly that they can do things when they are in a test situation that they can not do in training.
Whilst I mostly agree with much that you post cj.............
This statement never really fitted well with me no matter who says it and it's said a lot by many (one of them 'cliche's' ,or urban myths) IMO.
In context , I don't know about the complexities of jh tests , but I do know that if one is training any dog for any test ,then every day training should be as if you were in that test . (standard) . Come the day of the test , it's just another training day (another cliche' ) :)
Junior pointing dog AKC Hunting test are basically natural ability tests. Most reasonably decent pointing dogs will pass if they establish a point with little or no training.
Most of us do not train with people riding horses or a gallery following and we have some way to stop the pup if it catches or accidently flushes a bird. these birds are generally bad flying birds who have spent a few days in some sort of a box and especially in early tests the birds sometimes have to be thrown by the handler. There is a very good chance that the dog will catch one or more birds or a bird flies ten feet the dog breaks, grabs the bird a retrieves it to you. You have a dilemma. Do you accept the bird or somehow reprimand the dog. If you accept, you just taught the bird that he can break in a hunt test. You are not allowed to train during a test. Generally there are two tests per weekend. Sometimes four if two clubs combine to get more entries. If he does it four tests in a row, He is well on his way to being trained to break and grab the bird. You will have a junior title, but you will also have a training issue, Some dogs have a very good memory.
He learns there is no consequences for his indiscretions when there are people and horses in the field. With some dogs it can be very difficult to change his thinking.
Sorry ,this got a bit long........................Cj

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:33 pm

cjhills wrote: Junior pointing dog AKC Hunting test are basically natural ability tests. Most reasonably decent pointing dogs will pass if they establish a point with little or no training.
Most of us over here are busting game to get the dog to learn that the 'game teaches the dog to be steady on point' . ? :lol: ..I read that somewhere.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:29 am

Polmaise;:
Over here we also do that. It is based on the premise that the dog learns he can't catch the bird. So, what happens when the dog learns he can catch the birds in a test and you have no way to stop him? ...................................Cj

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:34 pm

''what happens when the dog learns he can catch the birds in a test and you have no way to stop him? "
cj ,my point would be .........If the dog done this in a test ,then perhaps it's not ready for the test ?
Even so, if any dog done it once in a test,it's not any 'learned behavior' that is conditioned to do ..........unless it's allowed to do at future tests without any 'training' in-between.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:45 pm

Actually, the dog is ready for junior and will pass, if he hunts and does not screw up something else. If your dog does it once it is not a learned behavior but if he does it several times on a week end with 2 or 4 tests it is and he will remember the situation for a long time. That is my point. You could scratch him and blow a couple 100 dollars in entry fees I guess.
As other people have said on this post you are better off going to senior with a steady dog...................Cj

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:23 pm

cjhills wrote:Actually, the dog is ready for junior and will pass, if he hunts and does not screw up something else. If your dog does it once it is not a learned behavior but if he does it several times on a week end with 2 or 4 tests it is and he will remember the situation for a long time. That is my point. You could scratch him and blow a couple 100 dollars in entry fees I guess.
As other people have said on this post you are better off going to senior with a steady dog...................Cj
Would it not be better to have the JH test that eliminates dogs that are NOT steady ?...We had(don't know if they still do,Trekmoor would know more about this level than me ) . where they have 'Let the dog have a good hunt first ,and it don't count. for the early starters .
...
Why would one pass if it was not steady ?

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:47 pm

JH is a natural ability test while SH & MH are training test. JH does not require steadiness just nose and ability to find a bird. I have to admit I have never found catching a bird as a problem and have at times actually help the pup catch. I understand what CJ is saying and can see where it could be but in actuality never saw it happen.

Ezzy

MSU Aggie
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 4:35 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by MSU Aggie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:59 pm

JH test are a great way to get new people and pups into training and testing. If your pup will go out and hunt, hold a point until your fairly close, and come to you when called, your good to go. You will learn what you need to improve on with your pup. Plus, getting to go hangout with other dog people is always fun.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:20 pm

ezzy333 wrote:JH is a natural ability test while SH & MH are training test. JH does not require steadiness just nose and ability to find a bird. I have to admit I have never found catching a bird as a problem and have at times actually help the pup catch. I understand what CJ is saying and can see where it could be but in actuality never saw it happen.

Ezzy
I reckon any dog can do that >?

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:46 pm

polmaise wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:JH is a natural ability test while SH & MH are training test. JH does not require steadiness just nose and ability to find a bird. I have to admit I have never found catching a bird as a problem and have at times actually help the pup catch. I understand what CJ is saying and can see where it could be but in actuality never saw it happen.

Ezzy
I reckon any dog can do that >?
Actually it does require a bit more than that. The dog has to hunt, the dog has to point and as previously noted is supposed to hold until the handler is in gun range and the dog has to handle at least a little. You probably will not DQ because manners.
four categories: Hunting, bird finding ability, pointing and trainability in junior.
Pretty much any dog can do that.
I have seen many dogs catch birds in junior tests and sometimes I have seen it turn into a problem when you move up and the same situation comes up.
I once bought a very well bred female from a owner handler thought she would not point , because she caught 7 quail on Saturday and 6 Sunday............Cj

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:35 pm

Slowly .....getting a handle on it cj . Thanks .
"The only advantage to junior tests is they give you a chance to learn a bit about handling. They do not do much for the dog. Most tests have quail that are poor or non flying making it very easy for the dog to catch the bird."
So , why use Quail ?
Oh' , and why don't 'Experienced handlers ' enter JH test with a Junior dog ? ....I would have thought all the Junior handlers with Junior dogs would gain from this ? .
Like has been said ''folk gaining experience from other folk'' . Or do the experts just Skip this part.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:43 pm

Mostly quail are used because the are the cheapest option and are easy to control. some early tests use Chukars. Pheasants do not work well and the cost would put most clubs out of business. Good Quail work very well. Just hard tp find early in the spring.
Most experienced Handlers don't enter Junior dogs because they are probably going for a Master title and that makes junior rather pointless and as previously stated can cause problems at the higher levels. Just has some people don't run puppy or derby trials.
I am sure some folks gain experience from other folks. But you are on your own once you leave the start line and most people avoid their bracemate like the plague.
Especially junior dogs............................Cj.

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: AKC JH Test question

Post by polmaise » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:34 pm

Management and Organisational Issue then ?..
You only get what You pay for. :D

Post Reply