Gun Dog Forum

Just had a quick question about whistle training. What are the basic number of whistle blasts for the basic commands that one would use while upland hunting. For example - three sharp blasts for "come". I have been looking online and it looks like it varies somewhat between upland vs. waterfowl. Thanks in advance!

its your pup train it how you please. for me its two blasts for recall one for a turn with a hand signal for direction. quick tweet for sit. everyone is different my lab buddies have completely different whistle calls.

I won't use a whistle. They are invasive and in my opinion have little place in my wild bird hunting venues.
Can someone share with me why you would want to use one when wild bird hunting - and I don't mean for safety sake in the event that you get lost.

About the only whistle command I use in the field is a "come in" whistle.

I do two blasts and I expect to see the dog heading in to me on the double. If not, the dog is standing somewhere.

Otherwise I try to hunt silently. I hunt over field trial trained dogs and ...the more noise you make, the farther they will run because they know where you are and where you are headed. That is the real reason trialers "sing" to their dogs... to keep them out there on the edge.

When you are quiet, the dog has to come around every so often just to make sure you are still back there.

RayG

Featherfinder wrote:I won't use a whistle. They are invasive and in my opinion have little place in my wild bird hunting venues.
Can someone share with me why you would want to use one when wild bird hunting - and I don't mean for safety sake in the event that you get lost.

Hunters are invasive, for that matter.

But to answer your query of why?...to communicate with the dog.
A whistle can be easily heard and understood by the dog, often at a distance and often cutting thru cover better than a voice.
However, whistles can be overused and overuse can(amongst other negatives) let a dog stretch out as they know exactly where you are at every toot...of course, voice commands(see tv birdhunting shows) are routinely overused as well...perhaps, more so,

Actually, to me, a whistle when properly employed, rather than as a security blanket originating from lack of trust in a dog, is a nice part of a day birdhunting.....same as for the music of a bell or the sound of a bell gone silent....or a scattergun's blast....or....on and on.
All can be very much a part of a storied tradition afield with dog and bird and more.
Plus, it is a wonderful open door for the purchase of a Knotsmith lanyard....one of the swell additions to one's kit.
Calling a whistle "invasive" may be one of the silliest comments I ever read on an upland/dog message board.....still, you are naturally entitled to an opinion.
toot-toot

Featherfinder wrote:I won't use a whistle. They are invasive and in my opinion have little place in my wild bird hunting venues.
Can someone share with me why you would want to use one when wild bird hunting - and I don't mean for safety sake in the event that you get lost.

What is the exact range of your dog? What is the approximate range of your voice, particularly in a high wind or in wooded areas? How do you deal with the disparity..if there is one?

Mountaineer wrote:
Actually, to me, a whistle when properly employed, rather than as a security blanket originating from lack of trust in a dog, is a nice part of a day birdhunting.....
Calling a whistle "invasive" may be one of the silliest comments I ever read on an upland/dog message board.....still, you are naturally entitled to an opinion.
toot-toot

Took the words out of my head and brilliantly displayed them.

Unfortunately in the east we only have stocked birds as well as preserve hunts for the elusive pheasant so I cannot comment on your wild bird post. Are whistles permitted in the grouse woods or while seeking the elusive woodcock?


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Mountaineer, I thoroughly enjoyed your response. My hunting experiences on wild birds have no place for a whistle. To answer GSPONPONT, they are allowed which is a good thing if you're a conservationist.
I feel that range is not a reason to need a whistle. Independence is, and as such reflects 2 dynamics. The first being the typical horseback trial dog (of which I have had many years of experience/success as a handler of champions and as a judge). That said, most if not all of the TOP pros on the circuit in my time (stopped in 2009) sang and had NO whistles. Also, check out the videos of the Nationals. Tell me how many handlers have whistles.
The 2nd dynamic is a poorly trained dog. When I train my dogs for wild birds I instill a need for them to pay attention to my direction. I'm hunting for birds, not dogs. It is the dog's responsibility to know where I am going. I have success with this on the vast wide open prairies with dogs that are virtual dots on the horizon (probably a residual of my horseback trials days) but just as much in the dense and remote grouse/woodcock woods.
The wild birds I hunt don't appreciate getting notice that there is a hunter/dog coming, which reduces your dog's success to stab the finds.
The definition of a true grouse dog could be a subject all it's own. Some folk think they have one because they get the odd grouse - usually with a buddy or 2 along on the flanks. They prefer their "pointing" grouse dog to work methodically and within gun range. Need I say more?
My grouse dogs all had/have pace - lots of it. Range is an average of 200 yards on either side of a 2-track in bush so dense you couldn't see 10 yards past the edge. I rarely if ever concern myself with their range or their handling - once trained. This type of dog flies through the woods like a fluid ghost-like streak, hits the birds HARD causing them to hunker down. I walk in, shoot (I didn't say I hit the bird(s) then proceed back to the 2 track. Fact is, this kind of dog finds more birds the farther it is from me (within reason) yet checks with me regularly to see if she/he is on course.
It is truly a heady good-for-the-soul hunt.
Other folk have their own methods/successes I'm sure. Again, "...something for everyone." That's just how I do things. That's why if you yack & hack, use a bell, or worse yet use a whistle, I can drop you off, go to an adjacent area and pick you up later.

Well...just to start....all ruffed grouse hunting would not be walking a two-track and allowing the dog to work either side.
Sounds good on message boards but it is not the everyday reality... across the Apps., for example.
One can find places where that gambit naturally works well.....as a standard?...nope....as a choice chosen for fear of getting lost?...mebbe.
Nice when walking back to the truck tho.
Additionally, as to the two-track note...the roadside cover can often be more dense than just a bit farther in......which most understand and have experienced. Even aspen clearcuts vary as to stem density across the cut.....from sunlight, disturbance, etc.
The "10 yards" sounds good again(ho-hum) but over 52 seasons from the Yoop to the Apps....it is another silly comment when used as a generalization.

No, no need to say more as to ruffed grouse hunting....you words are crystal clear and indicative.
The "odd grouse" and buddies on the "flanks" also illustrate the limits of any further need of comment re Bonasa U....not to mention the subtleness of putting "pointing" in quotes as relating to a birddog.
Hitting a hard point and hold leads one to realize that your experience on ruffed grouse....is not of much width...the depth?, I neither know nor care.
One simply recognizes agenda and attitude when one witnesses it....same for BS and generalizations.

To the question on whistles and FTers...I have no idea but going back to my comment on overuse of the voice, it would be clear that I do not prefer to hear either creative tooting or an equivalent of singing.
*But I suspect there are only so many whistles so FTers might prefer the more unique human voice for a contact point but...eh, who cares?

I will say more on ruffed grouse dogs as you made a subtle dig at some.
My own choice is washed-out english setter Coverdogs and WSDs.....FTing has no appeal, for me, but the dogs do as I enjoy seeing a dog kick up dirt in a turn or pointing out there a-ways. Still, to side my 8-year old, my new pup is a Gordon(of some gordon FT note) and I have friends who prefer the less than speedy but still wonderful other setter-types.
The dogs all work as preferences permit and when one looks beyond making self appear superior.
No need for the subtle digs toward dogs...any dogs.

I think most understand the importance of dogs keeping track of the hunter....moderately easy if hunters are walking a two-track....but a whistle for a direction change is for times when immediate matters or reality intrudes.
Plus, not all coverts, be they in the shortgrass or Up Nort, are such that immediate has no value when a birddog is paws down. It is a big world but one with ever-growing limits of a growing society.
The other values of a whistle have either been stated or should be obvious.
As I said....calling a whistle "invasive" is silly.
I understand the comment and wording was bait of a sort to enable you to express you own preference but...the wording remains silly.
For the reasons I stated and more.

Whistles and voices, truck doors and stumbles all let a bird know something is afoot.
Blaming the wise use of a whistle as being detrimental to birdhunting or imply that it alone lets the birds know trouble is coming.....silly again.
Just a fact...hunters and dogs are noisy....by their nature of being hunters and dogs.
And sometimes, noise can add an element of confusion that can make a pheasant decide to head to Elsewhereville....even when in range of a scattergun.

F....I chose who I hunt with, in the times when I actually hunt with one other fella, based upon more of true value than bells or whistles or hacking.
I chose based upon friendship and laughter and memories.
That you would choose go or no-go based upon something like a whistle indicates much but little of much value, to me.

Mountaineer wrote:

Featherfinder wrote:I won't use a whistle. They are invasive and in my opinion have little place in my wild bird hunting venues.
Can someone share with me why you would want to use one when wild bird hunting - and I don't mean for safety sake in the event that you get lost.

Hunters are invasive, for that matter.

Calling a whistle "invasive" may be one of the silliest comments I ever read on an upland/dog message board.....still, you are naturally entitled to an opinion.
toot-toot

I am with you Mountaineer....silly comment indeed! If a whistle is 'invasive' he must hunt with a slingshot! Seems using a shotgun, might be a bit 'invasive'...right?

For most retrievers....3 tweets for come to heal! One tweet means stop in place, water or land, look back and wait for a hand signal! That is all most folks use for retrievers

At times sit or come is important for safety...I share from a true experience!

We were duck hunting in a large farm pond. I shot a duck and it fell and laid on the water head down. I gave my verbal release to my male Golden Retriever he charged and started swimming hard at the downed bird. At about half way out that duck popped its head up, and started swimming towards the far end of the pond. My dog locked in on that bird swimming as fast as he could. At about that time I noticed a 3 line barbed wire fence that came across towards the end of the pond. I further noticed that it went into the pond, and then submerged. I could tell it continued across the pond as I could see the fence posts starting to come out of the water along the far side of the pond. To my shock that bird with my dog following was headed right across the area where the fence was totally submerged. I gave my dog 3 quick toots on my whistle, and was never so grateful to see him pull off that bird and head directly back to me. If he had followed the bird he surely would have hit the wires. Getting tangled in barbwire would have been most likely the end of him and a terrible death....the water was to cold and to deep for me to help him and we had no boat. As my dog returned, I watched the duck crawl up on the shore. I walked my dog back to the backside of the area where the duck was and sent him on a blind retrieve. He quickly scented the bird, grabbed it and delivered to hand.....

Happy Hunting....

I find that the tone on my alpha solves all the above problems. It's reasonably quiet. Let's me communicate at any range. 1 beep for change, bend. Multiple for return.
Love it

Well said guys. Funny how the tone of a post seems to come through to many different people and basically says the same to all of them.

Perhaps I was unclear about the fact that I was being specific to the pointing breeds. I do recognize the value of a whistle for the flushers.
Mountaineer, your post becomes more of an attack than a matter of fact.
I leave it with this. All my bird hunting outings are based on one goal, which is to make wonderful memories with like-minded friends and exciting bird dogs. Suffice to say, there is no fear of you and I sharing in this experience.

The perennial question...will the rain hurt the rhubarb?
Hmmm......my guess is that rain can indeed have an effect upon a rhubarb crop....however, if the rhubarb is in a can then, it is safe.
Beyond that, some depart a scene looking very much as if they were dragged through a hedge backward.

I think you are being far too hard on yourself Mountaineer.
Back to the point, I have used whistles with Springers and Labs. They do have their place - just not with pointing dogs, again in my opinion.
I have heard the incessant blast of whistles at a couple of the local hunt clubs on too many occasions. They do serve as an indicator of sorts. More-often-than-not, the volume and the frequency of the blasts is a direct reflection of the "fun" being had by all. Of course, the same can be said for the hacker. Both reflect the caliber of the training as previously mentioned.

Featherfinder, If you are walking a two track with dogs working 200 yds on either side in dense grouse habitat, without bells or I imagine a beeper collar how do you know your dog is on point?

Excellent question fishvik. There are two pieces of technology that play a part in my remote grouse hunting specifically. One is the GPS unit. I sometimes couple this with a beeper but I have it on the point-only mode. When I hear the beeper, I remotely turn it off as soon as possible then navigate to the dog. The GPS unit uses a vibrate and soft single tone when the dog is on point. I'm sure most folk are familiar with these.
The reason we might have both is that one will outperform the other in unique situations.
Of course the GPS doubles as a safety blanket on those hunts where we might be hunting a vast new area or if I'm dropped off by boat, etc.
Ideally, other hunters or hikers won't even know we are there other than the occasional gunshot or two, if the birds cooperate.

Featherfinder, I guess to each his own. I find the classical nature of real bells and whistles (no joke intended) more desirable then electronic technology when bird hunting.

fishvik wrote:Featherfinder, I guess to each his own. I find the classical nature of real bells and whistles (no joke intended) more desirable then electronic technology when bird hunting.

Never used high tech till I got my white gsp. She was out to 500 yds at 5 months. I was afraid I was going to loose her so I got an alpha. Lot of piece of mind. Then trained using the tone. Sure makes a nice day hunting. Never have to say a word except a little praise once in a while.

I also hunt waterfowl so for me, ONE blast means sit or whoa, TWO means NO and has many uses. THREE is here.

Whistles are necessary, not invasive. They stop a dog for a directional cast (waterfowl), or reinforce whoa quietly, tell a dog NO if running trash, changing direction; a multitude of things and of course three always calls to you. A whistle does not spook grouse or woodcock, at least not where I hunt. For Pheasant, keep the whistle hidden except for emergency.

A whistle will cut through the wind to the dog better than any other thing except perhaps tone on a collar and will likely one day save a dog's like.

gonehuntin', you and I agree on this, whistles do have their place.
I used to do what you do now Fishvik, for many years with success I might add. In fact, bells are integral part of cover trials. I found them VERY effective. Somehow, I could still triangulate on where she/he last was and find my dog standing. That was a few years ago though (circa 2009).
Mr. Jacobs is obviously of the same mindset and I have to admit, the more white on my dog the better but again that's a personal preference. Thanks Greg!
The thing is, my hearing isn't what it used to be - probably from shooting as much as I do. As such, the technology allows me to continue to enjoy a sport that I love so dearly. To that end, it has elevated the experience to a level I never even knew existed. Navigating through grouse cover, enjoying the natural beauty of the surroundings, a ghost-like flash of white traversing the course periodically, complete silence to take this all in.... Then, in the distance there is the indication of yet another find! Heart in throat I/we try to pin-point the breath-taking statuesque dog while negotiating the dense understory as expeditiously and quietly as possible (which often isn't very quiet because of where grouse typically are . Suddenly, the silence is broken by a thunderous flush followed by the hope that this time a 1/2 decent shot is afforded - not so much for me but as the greatest reward of all for my canine partner.
I don't believe the sound of bells is anywhere near as invasive as whistles or hacking somehow or perhaps it's because of how the sound is enunciated off of a fleet footed dog. Harder to pin-point???? All I know is, a grouse will not always flush because of alien sounds however they get nervous and likely assess the best route for escape. That of itself starts to play on your odds. A green dog or a slow methodical dog will most likely bump this bird in part, because of the sounds that put it on notice. It goes more like this: The dog has a find. As you spot the dog and try to come in, the bird flushes in advance of any opportunity.
No....this isn't how it ALWAYS unfolds but you get the gist. That being the case, good opps on savvy grouse can be few to begin with so I like to optimize our chances.
That has been my experience and I'm not submitting lengthy studies there-in to prove it. It would appear that a virtually completely silent fast-paced dog (with a nose to keep pace) will improve your odds of both having finds and getting a 1/2 decent shot. Just my experience on savvy grouse but it is just as effective on Bobs, Huns, woodcock, sharpies, Gambels, scalies, etc. in MY experiences - grouse being the toughest.

That is a very nice piece of writing.

Let me also say, I will NOT hunt with anyone who hacks a dog. I hate noise. For me, the Astro has been a blessing. I hate beepers, yelling, constant whistling and am not much on bells though I admit they are the best of the noisy choices. A man on another board had an observation on bells I love : " A bell quits when you need it the most". These days I'm happy prowling the covers and prairies silently, or as silently as possible. I only use a whistle in an emergency, with the exception of water fowling which these days, and at my age, I'm afraid I don't do much of. My whistle use comes more in training and exercising the dogs ( alongside my bicycle) than anywhere else.

I also think, though many will debate it, that you point is well taken on fast dog's holding grouse. Today I hunt with Draht's, they fit my purpose better but before them I ran very fast setters. I can tell you for a fact, that the setters held more birds that my DD's do. At least in my mind.

What holds a ruffed grouse when a birddog is down?....the ruffed grouse, odds on.
Something says stay, something says leave....comfort or discomfort....safe or not safe, to put it all in human terms.
In reality, it may just be the day or the cover or a cover change, it may be the decisions of other grouse we knew not of, may be natural noise and unnatural noises, may be wind, may be dat dog(either zippy or plodding....heavy-footed or mincing...all can obviously work in the midst of all the factors involved), may be hunter pressure(or not) as that factor is always in play and certainly varies across the range, it may be bird age, may be the viability of the local bird population, may even be time of day.....the list is endless but, hold or flush is unlikely to result from any one cause....hold, perhaps, preceding success, is simply rooted in the bird itself, imo.
Perhaps, over Time, ruffed grouse are simply changing up a bit and represent less of a chance to pigeonhole or "generalize"....woodcock do appear to be trundling more in the areas I hunt....hard to imagine that change only sits on one stoop.
Simply put, a ruffed grouse is deucedly tough to reckon as they are innately fickle....but, they hold the cards.

Reckoning or interpreting the why of success with a held grouse tho, is most often heard to be about the hunter or the dog....not about the grouse's poor decision.
Which is human nature, I suspect.
We often see what we want to see.
If an individual view enables admiration of some measure or sets up an opportunity to either praise, pimp or pundit away then, so much the easier and, apparently, so much the better.
At the end, I care little for any why.......if the "dog, gun and time enough" trilogy exists then let that seasonal play be where importance is placed....with far less importance hung around the neck of the players.

I do agree with Gone.
I have had an Astro since Hector wore one on his back and, with pheasants especially, it takes the cake....and for many reasons other than tailgate success.
In conjunction with a good bell, as opposed to just a bell, the Astro cake is served up in the little trees as well.

Pick and Choose....never, Pick & Pimp.
One receives more respect when traipsing down that first wise two-track.

You're right Mountaineer, no one, ever, knows for sure why a bird does something. We also many times see things the way we think they should be, not the way we are. I have always thought this about dog speed: A reasonably slow dog, like my DD's, sound more like a predator trotting through the woods hunting. A fast dog on a dead run is not as alarming a sound because he seems to the bird to offer less danger. I equate to us walking a pheasant field. If we walk very fast or trot ( at 72 I'm too "bleep" old to trot), the birds stay put because the perceive little danger. If we walk slowly and deliberately, pausing, the birds become nervous and flush. That's why I always walk in quickly on a flush, to keep the bird sitting as long as possible.

Now, if someone tells me I'm full of horse pucky, I certainly wouldn't argue. That's just what I perceive to be the case. Interesting topic though.

If we walk quickly and with purpose from Point A to Point B, we can blow by a pheasant, no?....as, I suspect, any dog can occassionally outrun their nose...especially depending upon the scenting conditions.
Not sure that the pheasant feels safe from hunter speed as much as they may just be lucky in not being stepped upon but...mebbe.
However....slow, halting, stopping, direction changing....anything that can reduce the ability for a hunter(dog(s) or man) to be patterned can make a pheasant unsure and antsy...ansty can certainly deliver shot opportunities.

Ruffed grouse?....they are a bird of a different mental toughness and legginess, to me, than a pheasant....different coverts as well which plays in to approach speed.
The real point with a fast dog vs. a slower dog re ruffed grouse may truly be in the time interval of arrival relative to the cover.
200 yards uphill or across several ravines is going to be more problematic in the number and building number of factors entering into a ruffed grouse's little brain.
Sometimes, one will hold like velco......other times, not so much...they may flush or they may simply walk on.
Experienced dogs certainly can bring something of value to the end result but, as before, the bird is the card-holder.

"Walking quickly in to flush" makes me smile.
I also do the same....trying to circle around to the front to see those eyes and bellowing flews, personally, if the cover permits.
The smile is from the times I have seen hunters doing a wonderful job of backing their birddog.....not sure what they are expecting to happen.....one often sees this action on TV hunting shows.

I also suspect we subtly drive birds more than may be thought...even ruffed grouse.
The point or flush may simply be that some factor popped up to put the quietus on the travel.
Maybe not...just a thought.

I never considered that a slow hunter or dog was more like a predator...could be.
Interesting.
I always considered that either a grouse or a pheasant saw me most as a joke rather than a threat.
Which may be why I value gamebirds....canny critters.

I don't think noise matters much to a grouse. I sound like an armored tank coming through a grouse cover and for that reason, I prefer my dog's stay within 100 yards while hunting grouse. Funny. Grouse can be the dumbest of birds. On several occasions I have seen them come in and alight in a tree to study the put-put-put of an ATV. Next second they are spooky as all get out. Strange and frustrating bird. I truly prefer the woodcock.

Yes, I see canny and dumb as different.

Wind....be it the noise or whatever, makes a difference in the behavior of birds, imo.

If I could, I would ask ruffed grouse many questions.
So many questions.
Then again, not so sure I want the answers.
I stay conflicted.

As far as I'm concerned, except when water fowling, WIND IS THE ENEMY.

I have experienced exactly that Gonehuntin'. Some of my toughest days afield have been in high winds. It really puts a damper on things. Birds need their hearing as an integral part of their survival strategies. Wind compromises our hearing AND theirs too. On the prairies, the birds will go into low-lying cover and put more emphasis on their ability to see. That can really tests a dog's mettle! Sometimes, when you have travelled a fair distance and time is a factor, you forge on.
My old setter self-realigned her strategy 2 years ago on a very windy hunt. I thought she was loosing her mind (she was 10+ years sold at the time). She made some memories for a friend and I that we will never forget! And.....after all, isn't that what it's about? Now, at just over 13, she is the consummate couch potato. I'm so lucky to have had her.

Featherfinder, gonehuntin and Mountaineer If you didn't hunt in the wind in SE Idaho, you'd never hunt.

fishvik wrote:Featherfinder, gonehuntin and Mountaineer If you didn't hunt in the wind in SE Idaho, you'd never hunt.

Pert much same in KS...I suspect we all cope as best we can....not sure anyone stops hunting when da zephyrs....whistle.

I recall one day in Iowa...hot, sunny and soon the big white clouds started building, the winds roared.....one landowner thought we were nuts to be out and about.
The pheasants barely had time to retract their landing gear and they were gone.
I think that day 4 twisters touched down just up toward Ames....we saw the start.

What makes you think we don't hunt in the wind? We just said the wind is our enemy. I, personally, never stop hunting. Well, actually, I hate hunting in rain.

I lived in Idaho and hunt SD several times a year. For all of you not familiar, wind blows in Wisconsin also.

I didn't mean to imply that you guys didn't hunt in the wind, but if the wind ever quit blowing here in Idaho Falls half the folks in town would fall over forwards and half would fall over backwards.

fishvik wrote:I didn't mean to imply that you guys didn't hunt in the wind, but if the wind ever quit blowing here in Idaho Falls half the folks in town would fall over forwards and half would fall over backwards.

How well I know. When I lived there me kennel was in Declo (Burley). I had two 6' wide kennel gates I'd open to get the truck into the kennel. I had to reverse the top hinges so the wind didn't pick the gates up and dump them on the ground.