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What do you considered "Started?"

What do you considered "Started?"

Postby JONOV » Fri May 12, 2017 2:52 pm

I saw an ad for a "started" dog in a Facebook group that probably still had puppy breath and certainly still had all his puppy teeth. I can't find the ad again to see how old the dog was but it was no older than 16 weeks.

What do you typically consider "started" if you're looking for a dog? I don't know but I thought it was a bit of a stretch to call the one puppy you hadn't sold and had put on a pigeon in the yard a time or two started.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby birddogger2 » Fri May 12, 2017 6:36 pm

Jonov -

There are puppies, "started" dogs and "finished" dogs. You sometimes hear the expression "green broke". To me a "started " or "green broke" dog is the same.

To me, a "started" bird dog has had the following training.

1) Basic obedience...heel, come, kennel. It should be VERY responsive to these obedience commands.

2) The dog should "WHOA" on command.

3) The dog should stand its birds. When the bird flushes and the handler shoots, the dog should stand...most of the time. If it takes a step or two it should respond to a correction. A dog that chases...is not "started"...yet.

The dog that is "started", should do pretty much everything a bird dog is supposed to do.

To go from "started" to "finished" should be mostly a matter of time and repetition.

I think there are a lot of folks who may not accept my criteria especially if their dogs are not trained to the levels I indicated.

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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby Steve007 » Fri May 12, 2017 9:12 pm

I note, Ray, that you did not mention anything about retrieving. Why is that?
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby gonehuntin' » Sat May 13, 2017 5:15 am

I think every one MUST have a different opinion of a started dog. I rarely see people agree on the term.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby Sharon » Sat May 13, 2017 12:24 pm

The important point when buying a dog is : what does the seller mean by started.:)
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby birddogger2 » Sat May 13, 2017 4:05 pm

Steve007 wrote:I note, Ray, that you did not mention anything about retrieving. Why is that?


Steve007 -

I work with pointers. The retrieve, for me, is far less important of a consideration. With my own dogs, it comes last, pretty much.

Part of that is the fact that I trial my dogs and, honestly, I don't ask for or encourage them to retrieve. Focusing only on keeping the dog steady to wing, shot and fall and then collaring the dog away eliminates a whole area of temptation to break....which will get the dog eliminated at a trial.

The other part of it for me is that the retrieve is a nice addition, but, for what and where I hunt, a dog that points dead will work just fine.

RayG

Gonehuntin'' said it well...everyone probably does have a different definition of the term. I guess...if one were to be considering buying a "started" dog, it would be wise to ask the seller to be very specific about their interpretation of just what it is they are selling as a "started" dog.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby gundogguy » Sun May 14, 2017 3:59 am

A "started pointing pup " should be able to participate in a akc junior hunt test. gun proofed, handle a little, point a little
Navhda NA test I think takes a little more than a started pup.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby JONOV » Mon May 15, 2017 3:28 pm

Yeah...My thoughts were somewhere between being able to run in an NA test and what Ray G described. I understand there isn't a set definition to it.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby RyanDoolittle » Mon May 15, 2017 8:21 pm

If I'm buying a started dog he better do about everything but be broke. He needs to handle, even if it's rough, he needs to let me flush birds, he better pattern and run objectives.

Basically a dog that's ready to head out to the prairies to be broke but it's still may or June and trainers haven't left yet.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby cjhills » Tue May 16, 2017 4:57 pm

Basic obedience, Here, kennel some whoa training. Hunt with decent range, hold point and allow you to walk in and flush, not concerned about the shot, will run to the bird, pick it up and bring it back. preferably, but not necessarily, gently to hand.
Basically a dog you could take hunting and expect to get birds. Some things will depend on the age of the dog......Cj
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby polmaise » Tue May 16, 2017 6:20 pm

JONOV wrote:it was no older than 16 weeks.

It should be well started to know where and when Chow time is by then .If it doesn't follow you by that age ..somethings wrong and it ain't started ,so it shouldn't be considered.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby cjhills » Tue May 16, 2017 8:38 pm

polmaise wrote:
JONOV wrote:it was no older than 16 weeks.

It should be well started to know where and when Chow time is by then .If it doesn't follow you by that age ..somethings wrong and it ain't started ,so it shouldn't be considered.

I didn't notice the 16 week part.
All I want him to know at 16 weeks is the world is a great exciting place, I am God, his kennel is a great place to sleep when there is nothing else to do.
I would not sell a 16 week old pup as started....................Cj
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Started??

Postby birddogger2 » Wed May 17, 2017 11:47 am

[
I didn't notice the 16 week part.
All I want him to know at 16 weeks is the world is a great exciting place, I am God, his kennel is a great place to sleep when there is nothing else to do.
I would not sell a 16 week old pup as started....................Cj[/quote]
.....................................................................................................................................................

On this we can completely agree.

There is NO WAY a 16 week old puppy can or, be expected to, take any type of training beyond the absolute basics ..and even those are, and MUST be in the introductory stage. About all the, less than pleasant, "training" I do on a pup of that age is to put it on a chain or chain gang for a half hour, here and there, so it gets used to being restrained, and clip a short, 12-18" lead rope on the pup as it is running about, to get it used to having a rope attached. ALL the rest is fun with some occasional "directed' play.

To describe a puppy younger than 6 months as "started" is ,frankly... ludicrous IMO.

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Re: Started??

Postby JONOV » Thu May 18, 2017 5:40 am

birddogger2 wrote:[
I didn't notice the 16 week part.
All I want him to know at 16 weeks is the world is a great exciting place, I am God, his kennel is a great place to sleep when there is nothing else to do.
I would not sell a 16 week old pup as started....................Cj

.....................................................................................................................................................

On this we can completely agree.

There is NO WAY a 16 week old puppy can or, be expected to, take any type of training beyond the absolute basics ..and even those are, and MUST be in the introductory stage. About all the, less than pleasant, "training" I do on a pup of that age is to put it on a chain or chain gang for a half hour, here and there, so it gets used to being restrained, and clip a short, 12-18" lead rope on the pup as it is running about, to get it used to having a rope attached. ALL the rest is fun with some occasional "directed' play.

To describe a puppy younger than 6 months as "started" is ,frankly... ludicrous IMO.

RayG[/quote]
Thanks. That definitely confirmed my thoughts on the matter. Pointing at a pigeon in the yard doesn't quite cut it.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby DonF » Sat May 20, 2017 5:33 pm

The only opinion on what a started dog is is your's!
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby Featherfinder » Sun May 21, 2017 7:40 am

There can be a wide variety of definitions for started to finished. At the end of the day, your opinion of what "started" is counts only as much as what the seller is willing to agree to. In-other-words, a conversation between buyer and seller to accurately determine what the pup is capable of, what you aspire to have from the on-set, and perhaps what it might cost to get pup to where YOU would like it to be, might serve you best....whatever you want to call it. You can tag on a word that best describes that criteria afterwards, since the current definition can be diverse or vague.
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby Meller » Sun May 21, 2017 8:27 am

Featherfinder wrote:There can be a wide variety of definitions for started to finished. At the end of the day, your opinion of what "started" is counts only as much as what the seller is willing to agree to. In-other-words, a conversation between buyer and seller to accurately determine what the pup is capable of, what you aspire to have from the on-set, and perhaps what it might cost to get pup to where YOU would like it to be, might serve you best....whatever you want to call it. You can tag on a word that best describes that criteria afterwards, since the current definition can be diverse or vague.


Agree with above post!
I find it best to go and see with your own eyes what is being called started!
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby AZ Brittany Guy » Mon May 29, 2017 8:31 am

Sharon wrote:The important point when buying a dog is : what does the seller mean by started.:)


Yup.....!
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby Trekmoor » Mon May 29, 2017 8:47 am

The rough equivalent of "started" in Britain is "part trained." Whenever I hear that said about a pup I ask what part of it is trained !

This is far too open a question to answer.

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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby gundogguy » Tue May 30, 2017 3:56 am

Trekmoor wrote:The rough equivalent of "started" in Britain is "part trained." Whenever I hear that said about a pup I ask what part of it is trained !

This is far too open a question to answer.

Bill T.


Ha! I recall hearing that expression on a trip to the UK I believe 1991, I thought the same thing, "what part of the dog has been trained, and what will it take to train the rest of the dog!"
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Re: What do you considered "Started?"

Postby Featherfinder » Tue May 30, 2017 5:04 am

Sharon, you're right on!
I agree Trekmoor. The key here is that whatever you want to call it, it drives the dialog for conversation/clarity.
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