Black GSP

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nanney1
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Black GSP

Post by nanney1 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:06 am

Saw a guy at a local park trying to take his GSP for a walk. The reason I say try is that there were lots of birds flying around and landing on the ground. He could only take a few steps and his dog would lock up.

However, his dog had a black base coat of the head and back with just a little bit of black and white ticking around the mid section and legs. I was pretty sure the AKC standard didn't allow black and that was the case when I read the standard.

I'm guessing that there are other black GSP's out there and it's only a disqualification in the show ring. And that there are more than a few black hunting dogs or pets? Anyone familiar with black GSP's?

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Re: Black GSP

Post by High Voltage » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:44 am

Black is a disqualification in the AKC show ring, however it is in Europe. I know several people who hunt with black GSP's.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by setterpoint » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:24 pm

iv got a frind that has solid black gsp nice young dog iv seen some dogs that were black with ticking but this dog is jet black.hes not interested in show just for hunting

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Re: Black GSP

Post by cjhills » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:46 pm

You can register a black GSP with AKC. They can do any event except the show ring. There are a fair amount of solid lack and black and white GSPs especially where Pottsiepen bloodlines are still common. They are quite common In NAVHDA in Wisc and MN.
Breeding a solid liver with black and white will produce some solid black puppies. I have bred a few. Did not see a lot of difference between them and the liver or liver and white. problem is people want to buy them for their color and that can be an
issue....................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by JONOV » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:20 pm

nanney1 wrote:Saw a guy at a local park trying to take his GSP for a walk. The reason I say try is that there were lots of birds flying around and landing on the ground. He could only take a few steps and his dog would lock up.

However, his dog had a black base coat of the head and back with just a little bit of black and white ticking around the mid section and legs. I was pretty sure the AKC standard didn't allow black and that was the case when I read the standard.

I'm guessing that there are other black GSP's out there and it's only a disqualification in the show ring. And that there are more than a few black hunting dogs or pets? Anyone familiar with black GSP's?
I can think of several from NAVHDA chapter meetings off the top of my head. One woman is a breeder and one of her Stud's is a UT Prize I dog getting ready for the Invitational.

Another is out of a fairly prolific show kennel if you would believe it, great dog, Prize 1 NA dog, and a service dog to boot.

I'm told the black comes from Arkwright, a solid black Pointer used in the foundation stock of the GSP. Someone told me that Ze Germans tried to breed it out as part of their overall blood purity obsessions, but I don't' know how much truth there is to that.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by fishvik » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:49 am

There is a local breeder here in SE Idaho that has black GSP's and they are amazing bird dogs.

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Tooling
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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tooling » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:59 am

I’ve come across some awfully good looking GSP’s that sport a black coat along with ticking. My bride demands that we will have nothing of the kind..and she’s counted to three..(sigh..they’re purty and all GSP if you ask me)

Do I recall an event that included a high number of black GSP’s tragically falling victim to the heat?

Keep those dogs well hydrated and cool!!

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GrayGhost
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Re: Black GSP

Post by GrayGhost » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:50 pm

This thread reminded me of the black pointer in the Range Rover commercial, I'd never seen an all black pointer before until that commercial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stFu2tw11aI

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Re: Black GSP

Post by luvthemud » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:47 pm

Was never a fan of black GSPs until Sunday. Spent some time at a local NAVHDA testing day and there were a couple gorgeous black GSPs along with a litter of pups that we mostly black with great ticking.

Pretty much sold me on the color! Now I have to sell it to the wife lol!

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Warrior372 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:49 pm

There is a very well known breeder in SW Idaho who has been breeding GSPs forever - 40+ years. If you search through his website and Facebook page you will see a lot of solid black dogs with just a little white on their chests - not so much with any of his studs, but the puppies. The kennel is No-Mars. The dogs are supposed to be outstanding versatile hunting dogs.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by fishvik » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:21 am

Warrior372 wrote:There is a very well known breeder in SW Idaho who has been breeding GSPs forever - 40+ years. If you search through his website and Facebook page you will see a lot of solid black dogs with just a little white on their chests - not so much with any of his studs, but the puppies. The kennel is No-Mars. The dogs are supposed to be outstanding versatile hunting dogs.
The one I was referring to was Shooting Top Gun Kennels in Shelley.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:50 pm

I own a solid Black GSP Male, a Black Ticked GSP Female, and a solid Brown GSP Male from the previously mentioned. The litter had 8 puppies of which one was all black, one all brown, one half black and half ticked, and the rest were black ticked. My Black Male GSP is the best hunting dog I have ever owned by a long shot. I had 80 inquiries and many are still on a waiting list or want seconds from this litter.
Last edited by SHaRPS on Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:52 pm

This might be better: (or not)

Image

Image

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Featherfinder
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Re: Black GSP

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:55 am

The more white in my bird dogs....the better. Aside from the practical implications it remains JMO.
I have seen an all black GSP as well as black with white ticking. They didn't do anything better or special as far as I could see. Just another GSP to me.
I too saw that they appeared less heat tolerant. Then again....they were black. What would you expect? Put a black T-shirt on in the hot sun and tell me it doesn't make a difference.
I just bought a nice black truck because I got a decent deal on a demonstrator. ........never again will I own a black "dog" truck!! BIG mistake.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by cjhills » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:33 am

SHaRPS wrote:I own a solid Black GSP Male, a Black Ticked GSP Female, and a solid Brown GSP Male from the previously mentioned. The litter had 8 puppies of which one was all black, one all brown, one half black and half ticked, and the rest were black ticked. My Black Male GSP is the best hunting dog I have ever owned by a long shot. I had 80 inquiries and many are still on a waiting list or want seconds from this litter.
This is exactly my problem with breeding for black or any other color. You have to weed out the people who are only interested in color.
I realize people have color preference, but if they only pick for color they are limiting themselves. In the above mentioned litter, if you picked black you would have one to pick from. If you picked liver ( not brown) also one. I have even seen some kennels that charge more for black. Which proves that some puppy buyers are their own worst enemy.
While it may be true that the above posters black male is a very good bird dog it most likely has nothing to do with being black. We have bred some very good black bird dogs, they came from MH parents that were super bird dogs and their talent probably came from their liver and white or solid liver mother as much as anything.
Black and liver are about equal in heat tolerance. This is more about individual dogs and conditioning. Mine spend the hot days in a AC kennel and do not tolerate heat well. But we only have a few hot days in bird seasons and I am not crazy about the heat and flies either.
So, it works out well for us......................Cj

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:10 am

cjhills wrote:
SHaRPS wrote:I own a solid Black GSP Male, a Black Ticked GSP Female, and a solid Brown GSP Male from the previously mentioned. The litter had 8 puppies of which one was all black, one all brown, one half black and half ticked, and the rest were black ticked. My Black Male GSP is the best hunting dog I have ever owned by a long shot. I had 80 inquiries and many are still on a waiting list or want seconds from this litter.
This is exactly my problem with breeding for black or any other color. You have to weed out the people who are only interested in color.
I realize people have color preference, but if they only pick for color they are limiting themselves. In the above mentioned litter, if you picked black you would have one to pick from. If you picked liver ( not brown) also one. I have even seen some kennels that charge more for black. Which proves that some puppy buyers are their own worst enemy.
While it may be true that the above posters black male is a very good bird dog it most likely has nothing to do with being black. We have bred some very good black bird dogs, they came from MH parents that were super bird dogs and their talent probably came from their liver and white or solid liver mother as much as anything.
Black and liver are about equal in heat tolerance. This is more about individual dogs and conditioning. Mine spend the hot days in a AC kennel and do not tolerate heat well. But we only have a few hot days in bird seasons and I am not crazy about the heat and flies either.
So, it works out well for us......................Cj
cjhills,

You are completely correct and I do not think I made my self clear which I apologize for. I did not breed for the intention to get all black dogs or even brown for that matter. I breed because both my male and female are excellent house dogs, family dogs, and bird dogs and have a history of Champion Blood lines from both sides. The breeding intention was for me to keep 1 puppy from the litter and the only reason I kept the all brown was because he was the one that best fit my family with his personality. I agree that color does not make one dog better than the other I just happen to have a great Black male and it looks like my Brown Male is very similar. With the 80 inquires, they were diverse. Some wanted the black, some wanted the brown, some wanted the half black, and the rest wanted the ticked. Some even want brown ticked which I did not have. I can tell you that I did ask more for the all black and I did in fact get more for her. I also had people asking double what I asked for the Black so they could have my brown male. To this day people want me to call them back when I have a second litter and again the targeted color is diverse. People were sold on my puppies when they spent some time with the Dam and Stud as well as in the field. Long story short, people do buy for color and they do limit themselves but that's their choice. I made sure all of my pups went to great homes regardless of the puppy and each owner sends updates every 3 months. Hope this clears things up a bit.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:29 am

Featherfinder wrote:The more white in my bird dogs....the better. Aside from the practical implications it remains JMO.
I have seen an all black GSP as well as black with white ticking. They didn't do anything better or special as far as I could see. Just another GSP to me.
I too saw that they appeared less heat tolerant. Then again....they were black. What would you expect? Put a black T-shirt on in the hot sun and tell me it doesn't make a difference.
I just bought a nice black truck because I got a decent deal on a demonstrator. ........never again will I own a black "dog" truck!! BIG mistake.
They are definitely less heat tolerant but so am I. Not a huge issue for me as I live in the NE and our weather isn't very hot or humid during the summer for the most part. Our hunting weather is generally between 30 and 50 degrees which is perfect.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by cjhills » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:54 pm

SHaRPS wrote:
cjhills wrote:
SHaRPS wrote:I own a solid Black GSP Male, a Black Ticked GSP Female, and a solid Brown GSP Male from the previously mentioned. The litter had 8 puppies of which one was all black, one all brown, one half black and half ticked, and the rest were black ticked. My Black Male GSP is the best hunting dog I have ever owned by a long shot. I had 80 inquiries and many are still on a waiting list or want seconds from this litter.
This is exactly my problem with breeding for black or any other color. You have to weed out the people who are only interested in color.
I realize people have color preference, but if they only pick for color they are limiting themselves. In the above mentioned litter, if you picked black you would have one to pick from. If you picked liver ( not brown) also one. I have even seen some kennels that charge more for black. Which proves that some puppy buyers are their own worst enemy.
While it may be true that the above posters black male is a very good bird dog it most likely has nothing to do with being black. We have bred some very good black bird dogs, they came from MH parents that were super bird dogs and their talent probably came from their liver and white or solid liver mother as much as anything.
Black and liver are about equal in heat tolerance. This is more about individual dogs and conditioning. Mine spend the hot days in a AC kennel and do not tolerate heat well. But we only have a few hot days in bird seasons and I am not crazy about the heat and flies either.
So, it works out well for us......................Cj
cjhills,

You are completely correct and I do not think I made my self clear which I apologize for. I did not breed for the intention to get all black dogs or even brown for that matter. I breed because both my male and female are excellent house dogs, family dogs, and bird dogs and have a history of Champion Blood lines from both sides. The breeding intention was for me to keep 1 puppy from the litter and the only reason I kept the all brown was because he was the one that best fit my family with his personality. I agree that color does not make one dog better than the other I just happen to have a great Black male and it looks like my Brown Male is very similar. With the 80 inquires, they were diverse. Some wanted the black, some wanted the brown, some wanted the half black, and the rest wanted the ticked. Some even want brown ticked which I did not have. I can tell you that I did ask more for the all black and I did in fact get more for her. I also had people asking double what I asked for the Black so they could have my brown male. To this day people want me to call them back when I have a second litter and again the targeted color is diverse. People were sold on my puppies when they spent some time with the Dam and Stud as well as in the field. Long story short, people do buy for color and they do limit themselves but that's their choice. I made sure all of my pups went to great homes regardless of the puppy and each owner sends updates every 3 months. Hope this clears things up a bit.
Not trying to be a Smart a$$ but, a word of advice, you really should call they color solid liver rather than brown. It makes real GSP people Cringe. Like calling a yellow lab Golden or a choclate lab brown. Thanks Cj
It pretty much says beginner.....Cj

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Black GSP

Post by Shellottome » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:03 pm

Black GSP's are a fad. People breeding dogs for color instead of function kill breeds. If you breed in a strict program you would never breed two black GSP's. Gsp breed winning the Akc championship another bad deal. I hope the American bred GSP doesn't go downhill due to common non hunting people breeding this breed. The GSP was bred to hunt not to be bred for its color.


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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tooling » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:33 am

Shellottome wrote:Black GSP's are a fad. People breeding dogs for color instead of function kill breeds. If you breed in a strict program you would never breed two black GSP's. Gsp breed winning the Akc championship another bad deal. I hope the American bred GSP doesn't go downhill due to common non hunting people breeding this breed. The GSP was bred to hunt not to be bred for its color.


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While it may appear contradictory to my previous comment, I agree with most of your statement with exception of the last sentence because that's not entirely true.

I would suggest that anyone claiming that they do not breed for color is likely fibbing. Am I wrong?

If it was up to me, black wouldn't be in the breed but I suspect it is here to stay. Hopefully it ends there..I mean what's next, tri-color?? :x

Suggesting the black one's, or other variants, are the "best" is ludicrous. Breeders - do you happen upon people that actually perceive things that-a-way?

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:53 am

Tooling, I tend to agree with you. That said, people buy other pointing breeds just based on exactly that - color. Heck, 1/2 of them don't even hunt! The reason breeders carry them is pretty evident.
So, how do you describe the practical application of a deer colored dog, or a dog that blends beautifully into typical bird habitat....almost camo!!
So, it's late season - the end of the day (dusk) and you're working your black dog back to the truck. What dog?!?!
"......hope he's not on point! HERE BOY! "bleep"...it's getting dark!!!"
Like they say, "There's something for all of us." But, at what point does cool out-weight practical utility ?

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Re: Black GSP

Post by cjhills » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:16 am

Featherfinder wrote:Tooling, I tend to agree with you. That said, people buy other pointing breeds just based on exactly that - color. Heck, 1/2 of them don't even hunt! The reason breeders carry them is pretty evident.
So, how do you describe the practical application of a deer colored dog, or a dog that blends beautifully into typical bird habitat....almost camo!!
So, it's late season - the end of the day (dusk) and you're working your black dog back to the truck. What dog?!?!
"......hope he's not on point! HERE BOY! "bleep"...it's getting dark!!!"
Like they say, "There's something for all of us." But, at what point does cool out-weight practical utility ?
In this case your black dog will not be one bit harder to find than your solid liver or roan dog. Liver Roan, which is the most popular GSP color in these parts is also the hardest color to see in the field..........................Cj

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Re: Black GSP

Post by MNTonester » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:04 am

I really enjoy threads like this. Have always enjoyed the insight that Ray and CJ have offered over the years and appreciate them being here.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by fishvik » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:51 am

Featherfinder wrote:Tooling, I tend to agree with you. That said, people buy other pointing breeds just based on exactly that - color. Heck, 1/2 of them don't even hunt! The reason breeders carry them is pretty evident.
So, how do you describe the practical application of a deer colored dog, or a dog that blends beautifully into typical bird habitat....almost camo!!
So, it's late season - the end of the day (dusk) and you're working your black dog back to the truck. What dog?!?!
"......hope he's not on point! HERE BOY! "bleep"...it's getting dark!!!"
Like they say, "There's something for all of us." But, at what point does cool out-weight practical utility ?
I can tell you that my black Lab/GWP is far easier to see anytime of the day, in the sagebrush steppe I usually hunt, then my white and roan ticked GSP. And with a little snow on the ground the GSP disappears.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by tnbndr » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:24 am

I hunt all my GSP's (dogs) no matter what color with orange half vests for visibility reasons. Orange is easy to see!!!
I had a liver and white, liver roan and now a black roan. I don't shop for color, I just adopt older (2+) dogs that need homes.
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Re: Black GSP

Post by Max2 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:40 am

tnbndr wrote:I hunt all my GSP's (dogs) I just adopt older (2+) dogs that need homes.
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Very nice !
Good ~ Great stuff !

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:07 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Tooling, I tend to agree with you. That said, people buy other pointing breeds just based on exactly that - color. Heck, 1/2 of them don't even hunt! The reason breeders carry them is pretty evident.
So, how do you describe the practical application of a deer colored dog, or a dog that blends beautifully into typical bird habitat....almost camo!!
So, it's late season - the end of the day (dusk) and you're working your black dog back to the truck. What dog?!?!
"......hope he's not on point! HERE BOY! "bleep"...it's getting dark!!!"
Like they say, "There's something for all of us." But, at what point does cool out-weight practical utility ?

Dont hunt at dusk. Thats like driving at night with the headlights off. Common sense really. Even orange is hard to see in the thickets at sun up or sunset. But I can tell you that my dog is FAR more visible in the snow and tall grass which I hunt in often. What works for others may not work best for me. A bell or beeper can also solve those issues. To each his own.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:56 am

SharPs, the demographic of this medium is large and wide. I didn't mean to impose where or what species I hunt on everyone here. Some folk never see snow - some of us end our local season early because we get SO much snow and because it's so darn cold.
What I was alluding to was that I have typically set out on a hunt into remote far reaching grouse habitat in early afternoon. Sometimes, you find very few birds on the way out however returning on that same route produces quite a number of finds, whether it's time-of-day, luck or whatever. As such, the return trip can take longer and therefore situates you arriving back at the truck at dusk - I repeat dusk. At dusk a white dog is still utile while a dark dog has you consciously or subconsciously looking for dog rather than birds. This might also have to do with my "maturity". Admittedly, my eyes aren't what they used to be. Somehow "dusk" got turned into hunting at "night". ???? If it gets too dark, I'm calling my dog in and hunting is over.
Beepers/bells are audible aids and as well as they might work, at dusk, you still need to find that standing dog.....soon. Time plays into this now or, you end the hunt prematurely and walk your dog out of the woods.
Whether you hunt Arizona in sunshine or Wisconsin blanketed in snow, "dusk" - while it might happen at a diverse time - occurs in both states. So, if you ONLY hunt your dark dog in snow, not too early in the day or too late in the afternoon, it should be as functional as a white or predominantly white dog. Even in the daylight, grouse woods typically offer a wide variety of shades/shadows/darker habitat. That white dog is so flashy in most any spectrum. As for hunting in snow, my collars are blaze orange anyway - not a problem.
For some, a dog on point is all they notice. For me, a beautiful dog with an appealing gait is eye candy. Whenever I see her/him, I smile as it lends a great deal to the whole experience and not just when they are on point.
By-the-way, ever notice a predominant color in Ferrell Miller's dogs? That's not coincidence. Flashy is..........just that. ;)
Now, PLEASE let's not bring black Labs into this conversation as it really has not place in this particular discussion. Obviously, black in waterfowling not only has it's place but can be a HUGE attribute! Furthermore, I prefer a flusher over a pointer for the few times I hunt ditch parrots. Since they are well-trained flushers they pattern nicely to the gun. Visibility has never been a problem with the retrievers/flushers I have had the pleasure of hunting over.
Oh....and a good dark dog is still better than a crappy white dog. ......just sayin'.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by KCKLH » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:46 am

Just my two cents. Color doesn't matter.

That said if I'm picking a pup and both parents are proven hunters and they all show interest in birds might as well pick the one you like the look of.

You can debate puppy methodology until you're blue in the face but the reality is it's all one big gamble. If a dog doesn't work out in the field there are worse traits for a house pet than being your favorite color. And yes I would absolutely own a tri color GSP if it came from good stock.

If you dislike a conformational trait and suspect it might damage the breed by placing emphasis over hunting instinct look at brittanys. Plenty of gorgeous dogs with intense hunting instincts. It's when dogs are bred predominantly for looks that you end up with worthless bench surfers.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tyler S » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:41 am

I have a Black/white AKC registered male. Very nice dog, the top of his pedigree is No-Mars dogs.
I agree the paint scheme on dogs should have no influence on choice, but unfortunately some folks are set on it. Solid head, Roan, etc. etc.
As far as calling a brown dog liver or a liver dog brown...well my Shorthairs registered with the DKV are simply referred to on the registration as Braun "brown", My AKC dogs liver.

Also note worthy is that about 20% of Shorthairs bred in Europe are black variations and there have always been blacks in the studbooks for well over a hundred years.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tyler S » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:59 am

This may be of interest to some. This is all puppies registered with the DKV for 2016.
1126 total
Braune (liver) 322
Braunschimmel (liver roan/patched) 438
Schwarze (black) 104
Schwarzschimmel (black roan/patched 248
Weisse (white) either brown or black 14

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Re: Black GSP

Post by JONOV » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:48 pm

Tooling wrote:
Shellottome wrote:I would suggest that anyone claiming that they do not breed for color is likely fibbing. Am I wrong?

If it was up to me, black wouldn't be in the breed but I suspect it is here to stay. Hopefully it ends there..I mean what's next, tri-color?? :x

Suggesting the black one's, or other variants, are the "best" is ludicrous. Breeders - do you happen upon people that actually perceive things that-a-way?
Why not? Its been an accepted color as part of the breed standard since the breed's inception. Its only considered a problem with the AKC. The other Kennel clubs accept it as a color. FCI, and the DK club both list black an acceptable color, as do the Brits.

Obviously, you don't want a silver lab situation to develop, but I think the chances of that are low.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tyler S » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:50 pm

[quote="JONOV"][quote="Tooling"][quote="Shellottome"]

Hopefully it ends there..I mean what's next, tri-color?? :x


Actually that's accepted too. And it does show up from time to time. Here is a link to the color page from the FCI breed regulations. From my limited experience with the German system I've noticed that their breed shows (Zuchtschaus) are looked at very different than ours. Sure the dog has to meet the breed conformation, but I think the judges look at the functional aspects way more than here. For example: they look and make note of the head, neck, bite, and ALL teeth, because the dogs are required to retrieve heavy game (fox, coon, etc) over pretty good distances. In other words what most of us may consider the best looking dog in one of these shows may not even place.
http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/119g07-en.pdf
Last edited by Tyler S on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tooling
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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tooling » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:55 pm

JONOV wrote:
Tooling wrote:
Shellottome wrote:I would suggest that anyone claiming that they do not breed for color is likely fibbing. Am I wrong?

If it was up to me, black wouldn't be in the breed but I suspect it is here to stay. Hopefully it ends there..I mean what's next, tri-color?? :x

Suggesting the black one's, or other variants, are the "best" is ludicrous. Breeders - do you happen upon people that actually perceive things that-a-way?
Why not? Its been an accepted color as part of the breed standard since the breed's inception. Its only considered a problem with the AKC. The other Kennel clubs accept it as a color. FCI, and the DK club both list black an acceptable color, as do the Brits.

Obviously, you don't want a silver lab situation to develop, but I think the chances of that are low.
Why not?

It would pain me to see the GSP become a fashionable statement or an accessory - THAT is the concern that I have conveyed. The slope these days is mighty slippery and albeit an accepted color..just give it time and we’ll soon have “grays”. My concern is not the “black” GSP per se’, so please, don’t twist words or perverse the intent behind an offhanded comment.

In our home, would we own and lovingly raise a tri-colored Shorthair, or any other breed that happens to tickle our fancy; or one that has been presented to us through circumstance? Dam right we would. Would I breed or attempt to breed the aforementioned tri-colored critter, thus, introducing that same specimen into the gene pool of the GSP or other breed that does not contain the variant et al..not a chance.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by JONOV » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:59 pm

Tooling wrote:It would pain me to see the GSP become a fashionable statement or an accessory - THAT is the concern that I have conveyed.
That makes a lot of sense. I also think that ship has sailed. If I go to a NAVHDA meeting, I see more GSP's than anything else, but I also see a LOT of them around my neighborhood that never pointed or hunted anything other than a robin in the yard. I live in an old, upscale neighborhood, and lots of people in my neighborhood drive SUV's that never see mud, wear Lululemons, and have a GSP as a complement to their "active lifestyle." Most of these dogs seem to get walked and jogged with often enough and seem to be nice, well adjusted dogs. One woman has three at any time but she fosters for the local rescue. Most of them also seem to go for the liver-roan variety, all the ones with black that I've met have least run in some hunt tests or trials.

Some people might find that sad, but I don't think its to the detriment of the breed as a hunting dog. Think about how popular Labs are as family dogs. If you duck hunted a lot, you would likely look for a lab, and have no trouble finding a good lab as a hunting partner. Actually, you might, but only because of the sheer volume of choice you would have.

I think that the AKC and Show ring people ruin dogs when new breeds come into the AKC. Someone explained to me its a function of a glut of opportunity HANDLERS to really pad their credentials winning titles with the low hanging fruit. So, its hard to get letters and titles or whatever with a GSP or a Lab, but if the Bracco Italiano was admitted to the AKC, it would be very easy for opportunistic breeders/handlers.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by bustingcover » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:21 am

cjhills wrote: Not trying to be a Smart a$$ but, a word of advice, you really should call they color solid liver rather than brown. It makes real GSP people Cringe. Like calling a yellow lab Golden or a choclate lab brown. Thanks Cj
It pretty much says beginner.....Cj
This has always cracked me up. People are crazy, dog people are even crazier.

I've seen a few black GSPs at tests and they look cool, I'm sure the reason why people got them is because they looked cool. Generally the M.O. behind buying a versatile dog is people want a dog that not many others have/use. As far as GSPs becoming a fashion statement its been like that for years. So many of them are in homes where people just want an athletic dog to run with or take to the lake.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:19 am

Featherfinder wrote:SharPs, the demographic of this medium is large and wide. I didn't mean to impose where or what species I hunt on everyone here. Some folk never see snow - some of us end our local season early because we get SO much snow and because it's so darn cold.
What I was alluding to was that I have typically set out on a hunt into remote far reaching grouse habitat in early afternoon. Sometimes, you find very few birds on the way out however returning on that same route produces quite a number of finds, whether it's time-of-day, luck or whatever. As such, the return trip can take longer and therefore situates you arriving back at the truck at dusk - I repeat dusk. At dusk a white dog is still utile while a dark dog has you consciously or subconsciously looking for dog rather than birds. This might also have to do with my "maturity". Admittedly, my eyes aren't what they used to be. Somehow "dusk" got turned into hunting at "night". ???? If it gets too dark, I'm calling my dog in and hunting is over.
Beepers/bells are audible aids and as well as they might work, at dusk, you still need to find that standing dog.....soon. Time plays into this now or, you end the hunt prematurely and walk your dog out of the woods.
Whether you hunt Arizona in sunshine or Wisconsin blanketed in snow, "dusk" - while it might happen at a diverse time - occurs in both states. So, if you ONLY hunt your dark dog in snow, not too early in the day or too late in the afternoon, it should be as functional as a white or predominantly white dog. Even in the daylight, grouse woods typically offer a wide variety of shades/shadows/darker habitat. That white dog is so flashy in most any spectrum. As for hunting in snow, my collars are blaze orange anyway - not a problem.
For some, a dog on point is all they notice. For me, a beautiful dog with an appealing gait is eye candy. Whenever I see her/him, I smile as it lends a great deal to the whole experience and not just when they are on point.
By-the-way, ever notice a predominant color in Ferrell Miller's dogs? That's not coincidence. Flashy is..........just that. ;)
Now, PLEASE let's not bring black Labs into this conversation as it really has not place in this particular discussion. Obviously, black in waterfowling not only has it's place but can be a HUGE attribute! Furthermore, I prefer a flusher over a pointer for the few times I hunt ditch parrots. Since they are well-trained flushers they pattern nicely to the gun. Visibility has never been a problem with the retrievers/flushers I have had the pleasure of hunting over.
Oh....and a good dark dog is still better than a crappy white dog. ......just sayin'.

Understood and I think we are on the same page.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:23 am

Tyler S wrote:I have a Black/white AKC registered male. Very nice dog, the top of his pedigree is No-Mars dogs.
I agree the paint scheme on dogs should have no influence on choice, but unfortunately some folks are set on it. Solid head, Roan, etc. etc.
As far as calling a brown dog liver or a liver dog brown...well my Shorthairs registered with the DKV are simply referred to on the registration as Braun "brown", My AKC dogs liver.

Also note worthy is that about 20% of Shorthairs bred in Europe are black variations and there have always been blacks in the studbooks for well over a hundred years.
My dogs do have European bloodlines and you are absolutely correct on the 20% as well as Braun.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:31 am

Why not?

It would pain me to see the GSP become a fashionable statement or an accessory - THAT is the concern that I have conveyed. The slope these days is mighty slippery and albeit an accepted color..just give it time and we’ll soon have “grays”. My concern is not the “black” GSP per se’, so please, don’t twist words or perverse the intent behind an offhanded comment.

In our home, would we own and lovingly raise a tri-colored Shorthair, or any other breed that happens to tickle our fancy; or one that has been presented to us through circumstance? Dam right we would. Would I breed or attempt to breed the aforementioned tri-colored critter, thus, introducing that same specimen into the gene pool of the GSP or other breed that does not contain the variant et al..not a chance.[/quot

You are way too late if you don't think they are already a fashion statement. That's what happens when a certain breed takes top dog. That's also what happens when the GSP is so versatile. From hunting to field trials and from an active family to military these dogs do more than just hunt and show these days and that number will only continue to grow. I hunt all of my dogs but it doesn't bother me to see a happy dog that doesn't hunt whether it be a lab, beagle, or GSP.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by SHaRPS » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:44 am

bustingcover wrote:
cjhills wrote: Not trying to be a Smart a$$ but, a word of advice, you really should call they color solid liver rather than brown. It makes real GSP people Cringe. Like calling a yellow lab Golden or a choclate lab brown. Thanks Cj
It pretty much says beginner.....Cj
This has always cracked me up. People are crazy, dog people are even crazier.

I've seen a few black GSPs at tests and they look cool, I'm sure the reason why people got them is because they looked cool. Generally the M.O. behind buying a versatile dog is people want a dog that not many others have/use. As far as GSPs becoming a fashion statement its been like that for years. So many of them are in homes where people just want an athletic dog to run with or take to the lake.
I work in the pet food industry and I completely agree to your crazy statement. In all honesty it seems to me that some people can't cope with humans and default to dogs, cats, etc. Yes, I bought my black male 2 weeks after I put my liver ticked down because I thought he was cool looking. And guess what, everyone else I hunted around or saw him thought he was cool too. Well, my cool dog turned out to be the best hunter around which is why I purchased a female. She is also a great hunter. At this point I had 2 great hunters, family dogs, and both extremely intelligent. THIS IS WHY I BREED THEM. To say I am a fibber and breed for color is outright ridiculous. I intended to breed and keep a puppy which is exactly what I did. All of my dogs have great homes and that's all I care about. Shouldn't we all? Or, would you rather a GSP go to a shelter over a non hunting home?

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Tooling » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:59 pm

GSP's do in fact do it all.

I will quietly pray to the GSP gods that the entirety of the GSP gene pool is forever rooted in the field, above all things. Amen.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:29 am

SharPs, I think CJ makes a valid point. It doesn't mean that's why you do what you do as an individual but I too see many bird dog breeds in cities where the "cool" color AND the distinction of that breed was the reason for the acquisition. You yourself said, "I thought it (black GSP) was cool looking." ....case and point. In-other-words, you probably could produce GSPs in predominantly white and liver that would also do well in the field - but might have the distinction of being a quasi-unique color within that breed. And...you could find them on point! :) (Never lose your sense of humor.)
Tooling, we all have our preferred breed and kudos to you and your love for GSPs.
Would you please say a prayer for my beloved setters too while you're at it. Amen. Thank you Tooling.

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Re: Black GSP

Post by sally1234 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:48 pm

We have a few Black GSP's as well as liver, liver ticked. I have no problem seeing the black dogs in cover and conditioning and structure has a lot to do with stamina and heat tolerance. Some of our black dogs withstand and tolerate heat better than some of our white dogs. And No we don't breed for color or extra $$$$ for the color. It is a paint job nothing more.
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