New GSP pup questions

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PoorMansWrangler
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New GSP pup questions

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:49 pm

Hi guys,
I recently got a German Shorthair Pointer pup, and he is about 10 weeks old. The dog has been doing great so far, potty training is going very well, and he is taking up crate training like a dream. I am wanting to start getting the pup some hunting training. We play fetch everyday, using both a tennis ball and a soft cloth bumper. He has started a habit where he will go to retrieve it back to me, but at the last minute he will try and dart away, and if I don’t grab the bumper/ball he will run off with it. What should be the correct course of action on my part to try and work on this? I assume it is just his puppy play time instict, and he will grow out of it, but I don’t want this to become a habit with birds. Should I possibly work more with recall training on a cord? I also would like to get the puppy started on birds, and I was planning on taking him to a reserve and getting him in some quail, but not shooting them, and if he does well with that move towards firing a 22 blank while he is chasing. Would this be too soon I suppose? On a more training/ household note, every once in a while he will try and get in my face and bark at me. Is this a sign of dominance? How should I handle this? Thanks a ton, and if anyone is in Ohio and knows a good preserve/ training area that would be a huge help. I am located in Dayton, and am willing to travel.
Thanks
Logan
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Sharon
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:35 pm

Welcome to the forum. :)

All way too soon imo. Most important thing for pup right now is socialization.

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/D ... ionPup.php

PoorMansWrangler
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:43 am

Thanks for that link! He is socializing very well with other dogs, he seems very friendly. We have a cat in the house also, and they get along pretty well. I can sometimes be a little rough with her, but I think she likes to play around with him. Any feedback on the barking in my face? When he did this, I just grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and gave him a shake, and he got the message it seemed. We are still working through some puppy training, and he is working well on the no biting when playing, and jumping up and down on guests. I think he is still in that excited puppy stage, and is taking it all in and gets distracted and worked up. I also plan on getting him on a few blood trails during this deer season also

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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by cjhills » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:03 am

I agree with Sharon's post. You are way overdoing it.
Dummy play dummy retrieving has little to do with bird retrieving when hunting.
One or two retrieves of a dummy per session is all you want, Just for fun.
Socializing, walks in the field off leash and recall.
Intro to birds at a early age, is way over rated and before you even try a wing on a string forget it.
work on pressure and release. When you pick this puppy up if he struggles squeeze a little harder, when he is still release. He will soon learn that compliance releases pressure and that will be the basis for training for his whole life. teach recall with the leash. No voice, just a tug and release when he comes toward you. Give the here command and pet him up when he gets to you. At this stage only give the voice command when he is doing what you want him to do. Be careful with the treats, You want to train him not Vice versa.
I would be very critical of him getting in my face and barking this is a dominance sign and will only go one way. put the smack down on that now when he is small. In the dog world crime is punished hard and forgotten.
Remember, pressure and release. Keep the tail wagging. You can't make a mistake by going to slow. real bird work at six to eight months is good........Cj

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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:48 am

PMW -

You are WAAAAY out front of your pup. You need to put a hold on your expectations and let the puppy be a puppy.

As far as bird work is concerned, you are several MONTHS away from anything more than a walk in the field with your pup and watching it chase meadowlarks and such.

I do understand your excitement and desire to DO SOMETHING. A young bird dog is so full of promise and potential and so much fun that we tend to forget that they are still babies.

My dogs do not even see a bird until they are about six months old. And then they may see one...or two and that is about all.

Intro to birds does not happen with my dogs until the pup has a pretty solid grasp of basic obedience commands and is happy to be with me and wants to stay with me.

As far as into to gunfire, I have done it many different ways over the years. I now feel the best, safest and most productive way to introduce the gun is when the nine, ten or eleven month old puppy has seen a pigeon in full flight and is chasing it for all it is worth.

ALWAYS remember that your puppy is just that...a puppy...a real baby. It may show you a flash of brilliance one day, because its genetics allow it to do that, but NEVER make the mistake of thinking the puppy understands what it just did and will now repeat it . That simply will not happen.

Everything, when training a bird dog is all about patience, persistence, insistence, consistency and REPETITION. Boring, boring repetition. IT is a real challenge for YOU, the trainer, to keep those boring repetitive training sessions fresh and interesting for the dog so that the dog stays happy and engaged. A happy dog learns what you are trying to teach.. A bored dog can learn things you do not want and can cause you to revert to a higher level of discipline to force compliance. This will send you and the dog down the road of compliance through pressure, instead of compliance through desire to please. The difference is HUGE.

It has often been said that a dog does not truly understand a lesson until it can repeat the correct performance in three different locations and three different situations. I believe that assessment is accurate. When you think your youngster has grasped a particular lesson...go somewhere else in a completely new and different environment and see what happens when you try to repeat the lesson.

Have fun with your pup. Make sure the pup is having fun with you. That is job 1.

RayG

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Featherfinder
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:14 am

Good comments have already been offered. What a great site for novices and old-timers alike.
Your pup sounds pretty much normal. The in-the-face thing I simply would not tolerate and as already stated, it WILL get worse if left unchecked. I like to be fair but firm. So that means, the next time he does this I would offer a guttural soft growl for starters. I'm guessing he will take a challenging stance. Regardless, if he persists I would grab his collar like lightening, shake the heck out of him and then, calmly walk away (with your back to the pup) as if it never happened. That's what his Mum would do so.... Basically, park the emotion and do what needs done. He may take you up on the shaking. I have another follow-up which I can PM you if need be. It needs to be addressed ASAP.
As for the retrieving, we (the superior intelligence) seem to have this odd understanding of what we expect from a young pup. I know what we want at the end of the process but he is just a pup. ANY requests where the pup has a free choice can be damaging. When I train, I provide my pups with choices however I also have procedures in place should they errantly make the wrong choice. You need not get carried away - he's just a pup but you also need to develop strong fundamentals. I find it interesting that we throw something we want returned AWAY from us and then expect the pup to somehow understand that the item we tossed away is supposed to be returned. ?!?!?!?
What if we put a short lead on pup, drop the item by our side, then if he picks it up, pick him up and praise him when/if he picks it up. If he doesn't pick it up, who cares? He's just a pup. It WILL happen, trust me. Done this way, pup learns:
- to pick up the item,
- when the pup is picked up, it might come out of his mouth at first so he learns to hang on to it,
- pup learns that hear - near you - is where the action is (regarding the retrieve),
- you are in complete control of the outcome.
As this solidifies, you can (still with the short lead on) toss the small canvas bumper (not plastic and NO toys) a couple of feet away. Don't be surprised if pup brings it right back to that safe haven...YOU! A savory treat is not out of place in this preliminary process. Obviously, your intent is to increase the distance of the toss but always with the lead on should pup need to be reminded of how we do it. If he jerks you around, the fun stops immediately.
The critical aspect of this process is that you must have complete control of the lead at all times. Why? Because as you increase the distance of the toss, should pup elect to drop the bumper, you GENTLY reel him back to you (make sure you are gentle enough that pup does not see this as a correction!) and the game ends right there. The message is clear - you drop it....you lose it! It won't take a pup long to realize that the best way to retain the bumper and the ensuing praise is to go for that bumper and DON'T put it down....even for a second!
I would not do more than 3-4 tosses per session MAXIMUM. If pup does not respond just end the training until the next day or even better 2 days. Be patient. Be confident. Be happy and enjoy your new pup. By-the-way, the worse thing you can do with a happy natural retriever is to do it too much. Once pup is bored of this game....you have an issue.
Birds and guns can wait a wee bit for now.

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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by cjhills » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:33 am

I am going to repeat one thing. The getting in your face is the one thing that you must not tolerate. It is easy to cure now. When he is a sixty pound dog it is a whole different ballgame.
At this stage a loud no and a good shake should stop it. Also do not let him step on your feet or push against you. Do not let him share your bed or the furniture. Don't let him share your space without being invited.............Cj

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ezzy333
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:15 am

The advice from three successful and long time handlers is right on. I always told my puppy buyer they are buying a puppy that will grow into a birddog in a few months. There is not much formal bird dog training that starts before 6 months, till then you have a puppy that needs to learn how to live in your world. House breaking, leash training, socializing with people as well as animals are what it needs to learn now. And the one thing you might call bird training is weekly walks in an open field with you SILENTLY observing is good.

Have fun with your puppy and in just a few months it will be old enough for you to start training. Till then you both have lots to learn but you have time to learn it so get started and good luck.

Ezzy

PoorMansWrangler
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:50 am

Thanks guys this is a huge help. I am very new to the hunting dog aspect, and this is a great resource. I was just nervous that I was not doing enough with the puppy to set him up for success. When I visited with the breeder to pick up the pup, he made it seem like it was mandatory for the pup to see birds by the time he was 3 months old, or else he wouldn't hunt. I will keep working the pup and take my time, as we both have alot to learn in the next year.

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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:26 pm

PMW -

I strongly suggest that you find a step by step training program for pointing dogs that makes sense to you ...and follow it.

There are several very good programs and some that are not so great...but it really does not matter so much. The key is to do things in an incremental, step by step fashion. The better programs separate out the skills that the dog needs to master and then, once the dog is reliable with that skill, the program puts that skill together with other , already learned behaviors and stiches them together.

If you are into videos, I believe the Perfect start/ Perfect finish series by John Hann is very hard to beat. For a low impact method, the book "Training with MO" is my suggestion. There are many others. Read several and decide which makes the most sense for you and what you want to do with your dog.

What is most important is that you understand what the method is trying to get you and the dog to do. It is vital that it makes sense to you and you are comfortable doing it the way the method suggests, and in the order the method suggests.

Bird Dog training is an exercise in building up and combining skills. You have basic building blocks such as the obedience commands, come, heel, kennel and whoa. Then you have handling cues which encourage and direct the dog to hunt where you want it to hunt and, in some instances How you want it to hunt(such as "hunt dead" for a downed bird). The successful training program takes all those building blocks and adds them to each other...one by one, piece by piece...skill by skill... molding them together, into a complete finished hunting dog.

An old gem that is always worth reading is "Training Pointing Dogs" by Paul Long. This book was written before the advent of the modern, variable intensity shock collar, so the training info is dated...BUT... it is still a very good way to train a bird dog, with a minimum of equipment. It is a short, easy read, laid out in logical fashion and written for the average guy training their first dog.

Perhaps the very best feature of this old book is one of the last chapters. Throughout the book, Mr. Long instructs the prospective trainer to do things a certain way and cautions the reader to NOT do it in one or two specific ways, which may seem easier or more "logical" at first. in that later chapter, Mr. Long goes through How to "fix" what happens when you ignore his instruction, but go ahead and do it the "other" way.

ALWAYS remember the ONLY dumb question...is the one you do not ask.

Have fun with your youngster.

RayG

PS -

I am a firm believer in installing the brakes and the steering in a race car , BEFORE you take it out on the track. A lot less wrecks that way. Works that way with bird dogs too.
My dogs typically do not see a training bird until they are eight or nine months old and have extensive yardwork training under their belts. Take your time...do it right and make sure both of you are having fun. If you have bonded with your dog and it likes you and wants to be with you, there is nothing you cannot teach the dog. THEN, if you have built a solid obedience foundation ...the field stuff goes SOOOO much smoother and easier.

PoorMansWrangler
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 am

Thanks for the advice everyone! I just ordered the Perfect Start first video, and I have the books Training the versatile gun dog, Tracking dogs for finding wounded deer, and also an video set from Cabelas on gun dog training! Lots to learn!

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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by JONOV » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:05 am

I was just like you...chomping at the bit to get the dog developing...I have a 17 month old GWP.

The only concrete piece of advice I have is about the barking thing. At his age, periodically pick him up (or when he gets in your face and barks) and hold him til he quits squirming. That seems to be a pretty universal piece of puppy-rearing advice that will teach the dog you're in charge and that as soon as he quits fighting you, the easier it goes. Its easy and doesn't require a behaviorist certification and even elementary schoolers can do it and reinforce it. Someone said shake the dog...don't know if that's a good idea.

Also, take him all sorts of places to get and keep him well socialized. This was, hands down, the best thing I ever did. I can take him into crowds, into a store if I need to, to a festival or brewery or anything I want, and not worry about him making it hard for me.

Your vet will appreciate you playing with his feet, and so will you when/if you need to trim his nails or doctor cuts on the foot pads.

Now, I'll go on about being in your shoes a year ago.

I took him to a NAVHDA meeting at 13 weeks and turned him loose in the yard with a flightless chukar. Great fun for him, and everyone there got a kick watching him chase it around. It did more to assuage my anxieties about not being able to provide him with adequate bird contact, not allowing him to develop, etc...

At 15 weeks I had him shotgun conditioned. I rushed it. I got away with it, but in retrospect I could have caused some problems. I did work with a pro-trainer when we did that...He was excited and playing with her dog, just wrestling in and out of the water, and we started with a .410 100 yards away, then 50, then 25, then 5 yards away...

At 17 weeks I planted pigeons and quail for him, and shot the quail. He had a blast, and he pointed (or flash pointed) but if I'm honest, it was far more important to my insecurities and my impatience than it was key to developing a hunting instinct.

At 4 1/2 months (19 or 20 weeks), still enough a baby that I could scoop him up in my arms, I took him to North Dakota (I go every year with friends,) flew him under the plane, gotta get him on wild birds By God...We had a good time together, and I'll always have the memory of him running down and dispatching a wounded goose that sailed 250 yards, and I sat in the marsh and duck hunted with him and walked him to birds and he would pick them up...But I was delusional to think he could plow through the brush and whatnot to find pheasants. It made me happy to have my first dog with me, and it was good for his socialization, but I can't tell you it made a huge difference for him as a hunter. I didn't have any upland contacts with him that trip.

Now, with a 17 month old dog, I took him to North Dakota again a month ago. He got his first wild bird point on a sharptail. He retrieves ducks nicely and sits in the blind quietly. He doesn't retrieve to hand, so that's something I need to work hard on if I continue advancing testing in NAVHDA, although he is a passable meat dog as far as duck hunting goes. I also have a lot of work getting him steady to wing, shot and fall...

Books and DVD's are great, if you learn and can apply information that way. I always struggle with that as nothing seems to go as well when you have to make it work with your circumstances, funds, space, etc...So I would recommend a pointing dog club, a NAVHDA chapter, etc...The Mid Ohio and Central Indiana NAVHDA chapters look like they meet within 1 1/2 hours of Dayton. Its a bit of a drive, but they often have birds to purchase and you can work with people there and there are often professional trainers that volunteer their time at the chapter meetings...

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Sharon
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by Sharon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:52 pm

Thanks for putting in the time on that post. It is excellent!

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deseeker
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Re: New GSP pup questions

Post by deseeker » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:17 pm

Since your pup is young and you are going to use the perfect start/perfect finish training, start a pigeon coop now, that way you will have good flying homing birds to train with when you pup is older. Perfect start/perfect finish uses a TON of pigeons for training your pup--if you have watched the videos, you'll see what I mean. They are very good videos. Good luck with the pup & and take him on a lot of walks in the fields to get him independance & confidence :D

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