DD vs Setter

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KCKLH
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DD vs Setter

Post by KCKLH » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:52 pm

So Ive been planning a move back north to PA up around the York/Lancaster area next year and I’d like to get back into the pointing breeds. I have experience training dogs for pheasant and quail but this will be my first grouse dog. I will always have a lab so versatility for waterfowling purposes isnt really necessary but obviously welcome. Id also like to try a new breed having grown up behind GSPs. I did some digging and there seems to be a lot of DD breeders in the area. Vom Millerhaus is just over in Harrisburg, Four Sisters in York Springs, etc. Is there a reason for there being so many in the area? Would anyone that owns one say theyre similar in temperament to a GSP?

I’ve also been looking real hard at some setters. I’ve only ever known one guy that owned a Ryman. To this day she was imo the best looking bird dog Ive ever hunted behind. She was an excellent hunter and I never saw her behave as anything less than a perfect lady in his house. That said I keep finding myself looking at Gordons. I have never actually seen one hunt in person but I get the feeling that pictures and videos dont do them anymore justice than they do ES’s. I keep hearing that Springset sets the bar for Gordons but I get the impression they like to breed their lines kind of tight. Wyndancer had some outstanding looking dogs but it looks like they havent produced a litter in a few years or at least not updated their website. I should also point out that Im a meat hunter and have no desire to participate in field trials. A horizon chasing dog isnt really my style.

If anyone has any incite or suggestions Id appreciate hearing it.

JONOV
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by JONOV » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

DD's are great dogs. I prefer their temperaments to GSP's. I have a GWP myself and looked at GSP's before getting a wirehair but just preferred the demeanor of the GWP's. Anecdotally, the DD's seem a bit calmer and even keeled but no less driven than GSP's. They are popular because not only are they versatile, with coats that generally allow for colder waterfowl work, but the breeding program produces a consistently great product that many hunters like and can work with, and a testing system that encourages and helps hunters train their dogs.

That said, a good setter is hard to beat in the uplands. Just make sure you talk to breeders of both and get an idea of what your getting. And, if you always will have a lab for duck hunting, every setter I've seen has a style and grace in spades over any DD I've seen.

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Featherfinder
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:33 pm

It's a no-brainer for me. You said you would be hunting grouse predominantly. A typical setter is hard to beat in the grouse woods.....period. Yes, many other dogs/breeds can do well also but since you are still shopping, you may as well hedge your bet.
It's not just their aptitude. It's their agility that allows them to fly through nasty dense cover with the fluidity of a ghost! The grace they exude in every stride and NOT just how they look on point. The good ones has exceptional noses to keep pace with their frenetic stride. I'm getting goose bumps!!
Yes...well trained, they hunt for the gun so you can hunt for birds as opposed to dog.
We hunted a sweet honey hole last week with a grand total of 22 grouse found (total includes birds pointed and flushed by flanking hunters). The setter was....breathtaking in his application, his crazy speed, his relentlessness, his intensity on his finds. I can't say how many birds he actually pegged for us (guessing about 8 as we ran another non-setter previously) but he never busted even one single find. For those of us that hunt grouse - we know how rare that is, no matter how savvy your grouse dog. It was magical!
I'd research the Foster Awards site for dogs that are tested regularly as successful/consistent grouse finding machines. Remember, these dogs have to SHOW the judges their grouse finds, not just sachet into a stop then instantly afterwards you hear the bird flush in the distance! :roll:
All the best in whatever you bring home.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:59 pm

Featherfinder wrote:It's a no-brainer for me. You said you would be hunting grouse predominantly. A typical setter is hard to beat in the grouse woods.....period. Yes, many other dogs/breeds can do well also but since you are still shopping, you may as well hedge your bet.
It's not just their aptitude. It's their agility that allows them to fly through nasty dense cover with the fluidity of a ghost! The grace they exude in every stride and NOT just how they look on point. The good ones has exceptional noses to keep pace with their frenetic stride. I'm getting goose bumps!!
Yes...well trained, they hunt for the gun so you can hunt for birds as opposed to dog.
We hunted a sweet honey hole last week with a grand total of 22 grouse found (total includes birds pointed and flushed by flanking hunters). The setter was....breathtaking in his application, his crazy speed, his relentlessness, his intensity on his finds. I can't say how many birds he actually pegged for us (guessing about 8 as we ran another non-setter previously) but he never busted even one single find. For those of us that hunt grouse - we know how rare that is, no matter how savvy your grouse dog. It was magical!
I'd research the Foster Awards site for dogs that are tested regularly as successful/consistent grouse finding machines. Remember, these dogs have to SHOW the judges their grouse finds, not just sachet into a stop then instantly afterwards you hear the bird flush in the distance! :roll:
All the best in whatever you bring home.
I've got DD's but I'm a +1 on this post.

KCKLH
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by KCKLH » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:17 pm

It will be the first time I go after grouse but when I visited I saw plenty of farmland in the area that I would bet my soul had decent pheasant. Im originally from Kansas and my family almost exclusively hunted pheasant and quail growing up. I would like to broaden my experience.

Thanks for the posts. The way theyre written kind of reaffirms my opinions on what type of people prefer which dog. Like choosing between an F350 Platinum and a Ferrari lol.

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Featherfinder
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:51 pm

Hahaha...you hit it right on KC! There are good dogs and not-so-good in all manner of color, breed, size....
Hope you get a good one.
Now if you're a die hard pheasant hunter, get a flusher! :lol:

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Settertude
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Settertude » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:09 pm

Grouse and Woodcock?
English Setter...hands down.
Hearth and Field.
Desire and love of birds, aim to please, easy to train and oh so handsome 'floating' through the northwoods.

I would look at Ryman types and Llewellins.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:11 pm

To clarify, most people that own DD's need a jeep, not a ferrari. They are used for waterfowl, upland, pets and sometimes fur. They are an all purpose dog but as with most if not all, all purpose dog's, a dog that is a specialist like a setter can do certain things better.

I incidentally had a pair of setters that were not only great grouse dog's ( one of them) but terrific pheasant dog's as well.

KCKLH
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by KCKLH » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:49 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:To clarify, most people that own DD's need a jeep, not a ferrari. They are used for waterfowl, upland, pets and sometimes fur. They are an all purpose dog but as with most if not all, all purpose dog's, a dog that is a specialist like a setter can do certain things better.

I incidentally had a pair of setters that were not only great grouse dog's ( one of them) but terrific pheasant dog's as well.

Exactly my point.
Featherfinder wrote:Hahaha...you hit it right on KC! There are good dogs and not-so-good in all manner of color, breed, size....
Hope you get a good one.
Now if you're a die hard pheasant hunter, get a flusher! :lol:
I tried my labs a couple times but they didnt seem to grasp the idea that the birds werent going to fall from the sky. Besides my daddy always told me flushing birds was an act reserved for lesser beings like children.

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Featherfinder
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:51 am

Hmmm....your Dad sounds like a very savvy man.
We did hunt a Lab for grouse on the first part of our most recent hunt. He was a super dog with terrific work ethic. He flushed about 6 grouse - of which one was shoot-able, albeit a VERY tough shot. Now, I would not want to put my setter up against this dog while waterfowling or for that matter on pheasants but......again, it's about the right tool for the job.
And anyways, I wouldn't disgrace my setter by having him seen in remote proximity to ditch parrots. :P

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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Steve007 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:39 pm

JONOV wrote: I have a GWP myself and looked at GSP's before getting a wirehair but just preferred the demeanor of the GWP's. every setter I've seen has a style and grace in spades over any DD I've seen.
If you'd ever seen a FC, NFC or DC wirehair or a dog bred along the same lines, you might change your mind. A quality setter (don't know about "every setter") is certainly a dazzling dog, but so is a top quality trial- bred wire. And of course,they are spectacular all-around bird dogs that will hunt at whatever range you like. Further, as you're likely aware (though it doesn't matter to some), if a dog is kept as a house dog, your wife and home are going to be a lot better off if trouble happens with a wirehair to take care of things than with a setter. I'll grant you a gun is a better choice if there's one around. A good English Setter is a fine dog, however. I just like wires. Or Gordons.

If the OP is considering a Gordon (as he mentioned), I'd look here. http://www.clearcutkennel.com/ .

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NEhomer
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by NEhomer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:07 pm

The breed debate goes on and on but for the record, I had two britts and I wish now that I had chosen setters. My current dog is light years ahead of my brittanys.

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Featherfinder
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:50 pm

Funny, NEHomer, I too had Brittanys for many years - FT champions as well as wonderful gun dogs. My sentiments echo yours. I would not pick a Brittany over a setter today. Wish I had started with setters day one. Brittanys are nice dogs but I've been spoiled and there's no going back.

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NEhomer
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by NEhomer » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:46 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Funny, NEHomer, I too had Brittanys for many years - FT champions as well as wonderful gun dogs. My sentiments echo yours. I would not pick a Brittany over a setter today. Wish I had started with setters day one. Brittanys are nice dogs but I've been spoiled and there's no going back.
Wow.

...and we LOVED our britts right? It's just that my setter is miles ahead in bonding, prey drive, staunchness and obedience.

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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by bustingcover » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:50 pm

Steve007 wrote:
JONOV wrote: I have a GWP myself and looked at GSP's before getting a wirehair but just preferred the demeanor of the GWP's. every setter I've seen has a style and grace in spades over any DD I've seen.
If you'd ever seen a FC, NFC or DC wirehair or a dog bred along the same lines, you might change your mind. A quality setter (don't know about "every setter") is certainly a dazzling dog, but so is a top quality trial- bred wire. And of course,they are spectacular all-around bird dogs that will hunt at whatever range you like. Further, as you're likely aware (though it doesn't matter to some), if a dog is kept as a house dog, your wife and home are going to be a lot better off if trouble happens with a wirehair to take care of things than with a setter. I'll grant you a gun is a better choice if there's one around. A good English Setter is a fine dog, however. I just like wires. Or Gordons.

If the OP is considering a Gordon (as he mentioned), I'd look here. http://www.clearcutkennel.com/ .
I trial my gwp who has FC and NFC dogs in all his first 4 generations. I also trial long tailed dogs. It’s not even close, pointers and setters will outclass the versatile dogs easily but that’s fine they’re different dogs.

There are plenty of grouse line setters and lews in the northeast if you want one. I would give Long Gone Setters in PA a call. I had a really nice shooting dog bitch from them that I unfortunately lost early.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:47 pm

There may be one, but I personally have never seen any Wire of DD that has the class or speed of a setter. I own two now and I'd have to see it to believe it.

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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Settertude » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:34 am

Check out George Gubitose at Little River Kennels.
http://www.littleriverkennelsnh.com

My Tucker and some of the best grouse dogs I know of came from his program.

http://www.llewellinsetter.net/TUCKER.HTM

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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Steve007 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:42 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:There may be one, but I personally have never seen any Wire of DD that has the class or speed of a setter. I own two now and I'd have to see it to believe it.
I note you are in Wisconsin. The GWPCA National Field Championships and National Amateur Field Championships and the Wisconsin Regional Field championships plus hunt tests were just held Oct 5-12 in Solon Springs,Wisconsin. Maybe you should join the local club or at least monitor their website and go to an event, so you can see it to believe it.

http://www.gwpca.com/Nationals.html

http://www.gwpca.com/NResults.html#Field_Trial_Results_

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bustingcover
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by bustingcover » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:20 pm

I’ll post this picture from earlier in the year a wirehair taking 2nd in derby against the long tails. It doesn’t happen much but there are some fuzz faces with wheels. The smart money is usually on the pointers and Setters though.

Image

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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Bad River » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:08 pm

DD's are geared toward fur. Setter all the way.

KCKLH
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by KCKLH » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:25 pm

Thank you for all the replies. I think Ive made up my mind on a setter. If I could only own one dog Id get the DD. Since I will always have a lab I believe the best move is probably another specialized breed. The DD does have a superior guarding ability and rabbits are definitely on my menu but quite frankly I get enough rabbits just being out in the field and as a single guy with no kids and insurance there really isnt anything I own worth risking the dog in the first place. I appreciate the breeder suggestions and it looks like once again Im spoiled for choice.

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Featherfinder
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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Featherfinder » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:47 am

KCKLH, great choice! All the best in your search for the right breeder.
Jim Gourley is down your way. He's got some nice dogs with enviable blood lines as I recall. Decent chap too.

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Re: DD vs Setter

Post by Grange » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:38 pm

I can't specifically speak towards DD, but I do hunt grouse and woodcock a lot with GWP's, brittanies and I own a setter and a lab. I've also watched and judged multiple setters and pointers in the grouse woods. My setter is the best ruffed grouse dog I know, but a few of the brittanies about as good as my setter. One of the brittanies is a AF Champion in the grouse woods so they can definitely get it done in the woods. The brittanies and most setters I've seen are faster and have a larger natural range in the grouse woods than the GWPs. The GWPs like fur a lot more than the other breeds, which has cause issues during hunts (i.e. snowshoe hares, deer and skunk in the prairies), but with proper training the issues have been minimized. That said one of the GWPs if properly trained would have been able to give any setter, brittany or pointer a run for its money in the grouse woods. This GWP has plenty of speed and good range, but is a somewhat wild with her pattern. I personally think that is because of her lack of training. I've also hunted with this GWP's litter mate, but it wasn't until I saw the litter mate run before I made the connection. To me that means consistent breeding.

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