How do I trust my pup

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PoorMansWrangler
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How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:13 am

Hi guys,
I have a 4 month old GSP pup, Boone. He is a great pup, a dream to have. We typically go on 1.5-2.75 walks each day, and once or twice a week I will take him to the big field to run around on a 50 ft lead. The other day, I figured I would just let him drag the big lead around, so he could wander and explore. Man was that a mistake, he took off and I had to run him down. I would love to be able to let him run around while we walk, but this past expierence has me worried he may take off and I will never find him. I have him trained to come, but if their is something more interesting he wouldn't bother coming when called. I have a 4 ft check chord which I use when we walk, and the longer 50 ft chord. What would you guys reccomend?
Thanks
Logan

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SCT
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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by SCT » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:34 am

Not sure what you think constitutes a big field, but I'd take to a big area with wild birds and let him go hunting. Put a tracker on him and don't say much to him, just let him roll. How are you ever going to trust him if you don't figure it out while he's young. Also, a 4 month old pup can learn come without a bunch of distractions, but in a field with tons of distractions there's no point in expecting him to cooperate. Is this your first bird dog??

PoorMansWrangler
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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:48 am

When I say big field, I would say its about the size of a football field, and it is picked beans. I was actually looking into getting a tracker just to be safe. This is my first dog, my parents have had dogs before but they are all smaller dogs and I wasn't too involved with the training process.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by shags » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:09 am

As long as you’re in a safe place ( no roads or other big dangers) you could let the pup roll and you just sit down and shut up and let him worry about finding you. Alternatively, you could turn around and walk away. IME pups seem to keep half an eye on you anyway, and feel pretty safe and emboldened to go as long as you’re there and calling and chasing. When you ignore them, it’s game over.

At around 5 months old my bolder pups start really blowing me off and the above doesn’t work as well, and sometimes I just don’t have the time to mess with it. So they get conditioned to the ecollar, and it becomes my backup. A little nick teaches them that I can reach out and touch someone no matter what, and ignoring isn’t an option.

Given all that, keep in mind that if you want the pup to be a hunting partner, you want to foster some independence on his part. So don’t get too paranoid about him not being practically underfoot. It takes some practice to not worry,
but once you and he figure out the program the worry goes away.

P.S. The gps collar is a great worry reliever, well worth the expense. You might still have to run him down but at least you’ll know which direction to run in :lol:

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:27 am

Ok perfect thats great! I will try the turning around and walking away idea. I just know it would kill me if something were to happen to him and I couldn't find him, that would be rough. I am kind of getting that attitude from him now, he recently has been doing poorly with no jumping on people and nipping on people, and he scratched my girlfriend in the face when she was laying down on the couch. I don't want to be too hard on him because I realize he is a pup and can be clumsy, but at the same time thats unacceptable. I notice a huge difference in his behavior after we walk and burn off some energy, he is a angel, so I may try and get up early in the morning and walk him also to make him a little easier to deal with for the gf. Hopefully with black friday coming up I can find a good deal on a tracker

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by NEhomer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:46 am

Eventually you're going to buy a GPS anyway so get one now.

I would pay 5 times the cost of my Alpha 100 and T15 collar.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:54 am

Shags is telling it to you straight.

I would take the pup into a grown up field...waist high grass. I'm talking forty or fifty acres, obviously with no roads other than the one you drove in on and are now walking in the opposite direction. No need for such a long lead...20" is fine if it is a stiff cord that lays down. if not...forget the lead entirely. Just carry that short lead and some water.

Walk into the cover with the pup and let it roam, hunt...do whatever. Keep your mouth shut and I mean SHUT. No calling, no whistle...nothing. Walk with the pup for a bit and stop. Make no noise, say nothing. I absolutely guarantee that your pup will come looking for you. It will come in first, because it does not want to lose track of you and second because it is probably thirsty. When it does, call it over, give it a pat on the flank, a swig of water(just a short swig) and let it ramble again while you walk forward for a while and then stop again. You are teaching the dog two things. One...to come back in for praise and two... you are where the water is.

If you put a dog down in a cut down beanfield, it is going to run to the edges of that beanfield. I don't care if it is a three legged lab with arthritis...it is going to go to the edge of the field...because that is where the birds will be. When you put a dog in cover, especially a pup such as yours, it will shorten waaaay up, first because it is in cover and busting through it will wear the pup down, but also because it wants to keep track of you. Keep the field sessions short...fifteen to twenty minutes or so. Don't want to push a puppy too hard, and you want to keep the pup wanting more.

If your dog likes you...it will come back for you. It really is just that simple. I have had big running dogs all my life..long before beeper collars, trackers and all of that. Ain't lost one(permanently)...yet, and that is over fifty years of chasing after dogs.

You gotta let them go in order for them to come back on their own. A bell can help ease your mind, a beeper can help and so can a tracking unit....but ultimately...you gotta let the dog go.

RayG

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by Steve007 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:00 pm

PoorMansWrangler wrote:Ok perfect thats great! I will try the turning around and walking away idea. I just know it would kill me if something were to happen to him and I couldn't find him, that would be rough. I am kind of getting that attitude from him now, he recently has been doing poorly with no jumping on people and nipping on people, and he scratched my girlfriend in the face when she was laying down on the couch. I don't want to be too hard on him because I realize he is a pup and can be clumsy, but at the same time thats unacceptable. I notice a huge difference in his behavior after we walk and burn off some energy, he is a angel, so I may try and get up early in the morning and walk him also to make him a little easier to deal with for the gf. Hopefully with black friday coming up I can find a good deal on a tracker
Unrelated (mostly) to your question, do his toenails, don't let him get on furniture and start putting some non-strong-correction-at-this-age obedience work into him. Find a genuine obedience class. They won't let you do real obedience until he's six months old (and shouldn't), but make a start at it.

Life --and girlfriend and even birdhunting -- will be a lot easier with a decently trained dog. It will, however, take a while.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:51 pm

Sounds like the OP has the dog as a pet .
Your 'Hunter' type guys responses ain't gonna work .
But what do I know. I had a 5 year old rescue Beagle today at training for the first time who had been 'ranging shall we say' ? :lol:
We , started a sequential process for the handler and dog to condition 'stop' .
At first it was way beyond the understanding and capability of both dog and handler.
In a few weeks I'm sure it will be right.
On forum ?...I doubt it.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:25 pm

For certain this dog is more of a pet than a strict hunter. I am mainly a whitetail hunter, and bought the dog to get on a few blodtrails to aid in tracking of deer. I plan on doing more upland hunting, since it has been something I have been interested in for certain. I am not the typical guy on the forum, I live in the city and have a fenced in back yard and thats it. However, I do have 300 acres or so where I can train the dog, with some birds. I have no bird coops or birds per say, but I am working on acquiring birds. If he is great on deer and decent on birds, thats great, but I do want to focus more on upland hunting as he matures.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Sounds about right !
So if a car was parked on a hill and the handbrake come loose ,it would be almost impossible to get it in reverse so that it would get back up the hill . Much easier if you 'stop' it first :wink:
Do You know how to 'condition' a stop with a dog ?

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:19 pm

I do not know how to stop him really.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by polmaise » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:32 pm

PoorMansWrangler wrote:I do not know how to stop him really.
So it's not about 'trust' as in the original post , and any advice from the good fellow hunters who have immense experience in Trials or tests or the shooting field or even them that have immense knowledge of the e-collar training or how you apply it with a certain breed . It's simply that a requirement for You and Your dog that if You can stop it ! ...then that would be a life saver ;)

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:09 pm

You hit the nail on the head, I want to teach him to stop/come back, so I can trust that he will come back and not go tearing off

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by Nmhuntr » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:45 pm

PoorMansWrangler wrote:You hit the nail on the head, I want to teach him to stop/come back, so I can trust that he will come back and not go tearing off
With my Britt I trained her to come on a double whistle. I did this in my yard and every time I do a double whistle she comes and gets a treat. When I first took her out,(high brush area), as soon as we lost eye contact I did the double whistle and she comes running. As She has gotten to running further away it has worked for me. It won't pull her off a rabbit but she is a pup and soon learns that she can not catch the rabbit and stops running. Once she stops I hit the double whistle and here she comes. The advantage of the whistle is in the winds it is easier for the dog to hear. She wil stop and get her bearings and I will have to hit it again as she locates me.

Just my 2 cents as a new guy

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:47 pm

Listen to Ray. He knows what he’s talking about!

But I have an anecdote for you: This year I took my Pointer to a new Ruffed grouse spot. We walked a trail neither of us knew. We got down the trail quite a ways and my dog was out about 100 yards in the woods when my GPS lost connection with the collar. So I called and called to get her back, but nothing. So I walked back down the trail figuring she’d backtrack me. Anyway, I made it all the way to the trailhead... about 1000 yards from where she was when the collar connection was lost (as the crow flies). And guess who was there waiting at the truck! Moral of the story, you may lose the dog, but the dog won’t lose you (or at least your truck).

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by NEhomer » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:10 am

Get a GPS.

Today.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by Tooling » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:36 am

NEhomer wrote:Get a GPS.

Today.
x2

Another nice feature of the Garmin Alpha in particular is the tone feature which can be overlaid as a recall once the dog has become reliable in response to a verbal command. Aside that, Ray's write-up is pretty spot-on..just remain consistent in order to teach the dog that when the command to come (or stop) is given..it means NOW. This comes with time so don't impose unrealistic expectations upon a pup or a green dog.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:47 am

PoorMansWrangler wrote:I do not know how to stop him really.
That is an easy fix. You need to get a Delmar Smith wonder lead. And you need to get two books. The first book is Training Pointing Dogs by Paul Long and the second is Training with MO by Martha Greenlee. The wonder lead is about 20 bucks and the books are under $20 each.

When you get your wonder lead, use it to do heel/whoa drills in your yard, after the manner of Paul Long. The wonder lead is a waxed rope that has a "natural" springiness. The loop opens and closes in response to pressure. The pressure does the training.

I start my pups at 4 months of age on heel/whoa drills and within a couple of weeks they are walking fairly quietly at heel in the yard.

Here's what I do:

Place the loop over the dogs head, right behind the ears, so that the tail of the "P" created by the rope is next to your leg. Adjust your hand position so that the loop is "just" snug on the dog's neck with no pressure when the dog is in the correct heeling position(dog's nose next to your knee). Then step off and walk about ten steps and stop. Keep your hand just where it is. If the puppy stays right by your knee and stops when you stop there will be no pressure. If the puppy surges forward...the loop will close. If the puppy balks and won't move...the loop will close. If the puppy goes away from your leg...the loop will close.

Now... expect the first few times, the puppy will fight the lead. Be silent...be patient. Let the puppy find out that it is in control of the pressure. It is VITAL that you say nothing and do nothing other than hold the lead so the puppy realizes that it t is causing its own discomfort.

I do these drills with my field trial bred pointers starting, as I said, at about 4 months of age. The drill is simple. You walk off with the dog at heel. Go about ten steps and stop. Wait about ten seconds and then step off again for another ten steps. Stop. I do three or four reps in the morning and three or four reps in the evening...every single day. In a couple weeks you can start adding turns to the drill. Then in a few more weeks you can start dropping the end of the lead in front of the dog, cautioning the dog to stay in place with an upraised hand(stop signal) and then walk in front of the dog.

Eventually...in a few months... you will be able to walk with the dog, at heel, without a lead and when you stop, the dog will stop with you. The dog will have learned to watch YOU and take direction from YOU.

The whoa part of the drill is of immense value, both as a prospective bird dog and to keep the dog safe. If I command whoa to one of my dogs...it stops...dead in its tracks...wherever it is and whatever it is doing...or there is He!! to pay. Ifthe dog is running toward a road. I can stop it. Once it is stopped, I can either go and get the dog or call it back to me. If the dog is not yet super reliable on recall, I will go and get the dog.

To get the dog to whoa reliably, I use the same heel whoa drill, but extend it, as I mentioned earlier, initially dropping the lead in front of the dog and walking out front of the dog after cautioning it with the upraised hand. in effect, I have OVERLAID the upraised hand whoa command to the lead enforced stop command. Once you have overlaid the upraised had whoa command you can overlay a verbal "WHOA" or whatever you wish, by first using the wonder lead and then using a regular checkcord and simultaneously giving the command and popping the the checkcord. Once the dog has the checkcord whoa down, you can overlay another verbal, whistle or e-collar cue to whoa the dog.

Training is a progression. Baby dog...baby steps. Patience, persistence and consistency.

If you experience resistance to a new training scenario...do not hesitate to go back to what the puppy alreadyknows and knows well. Train for success and always try to end on a good note.

I lived in the 'burbs for many years and trained my dogs on a 100X125' piece of property. The fenced back yard was about 30X50'. Some of the dogs I trained there were competitive field trial dogs, both walking and horseback. If I can do it, anyone can. It CAN be done.

RayG

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by DougB » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:12 am

I am not an expert on training dogs, Not even in the top 10. But I get a lot of compliments on my dogs behavior and obedience, which speaks to the low level of training in the general dog population.

Find an obedience class and work with the dog. The class makes you do the work to avoid looking foolish. Start in a controlled fenced area. Lots of treats, lots of praise. Use a long line at the start until the dog figures out the command. It's a process that goes on for the life of the dog. Keep it fun, for you and the dog.

When dogs are first expected to learn and think, it exhausts them. Eventually, learning can become a game.

"Come"is a good command to start with pups as they are weaned. A bowl of food, give the command, and they associate the command with food and disobedience with being last at the food bowl.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by polmaise » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:17 pm

DougB wrote:I am not an expert on training dogs, Not even in the top 10. But I get a lot of compliments on my dogs behavior and obedience, which speaks to the low level of training in the general dog population.
No-one on here Is !
They ain't never seen the dog in front of them .
I'm sure the OP is in the same camp ,with general dog population, . That don't make them any different to the dumbest hunter in the field with a dog . :wink:

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by oldbeek » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:42 am

My current dog ran out 1/2 mile hitting objectives at 12 weeks old. Scared the crap out of me. Then she decided to check on me and came running back. I say X2 what ray said. This last weekend at 3yr she climbed to the top of a platue and stood there gulping the scent of 40 quail just up wind of her. Head high and waiting for me to catch up and get my breath. She is independent and confident. We had 2,10 month old GSPs with us this weekend. We just let them run and they bumped some quail but got lots of points. By the second day they were really taking shape. Beautiful pointing and backing pups. It takes patients to let a pup blow quail out that you would like to have a chance of shooting, but just enjoy them, you are training for the future. The older dog had a Garmin and we just watched the pups and went to her when the receiver said point. Her collar had 51 miles on it in 2 days. We all had sore feet on day 3. A day of rest.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by PoorMansWrangler » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:15 am

Wow that is a huge help thank you all! I have the wonder lead already because the pups a pulled on walks and it straightened him out so I will definitely get those books. I have the perfect start dvd set, just need to watch it. Would you guys recommend the Garnin Astro for the most part? I found a new in box one on CL for significantly cheaper than online

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:41 am

PoorMansWrangler wrote:Wow that is a huge help thank you all! I have the wonder lead already because the pups a pulled on walks and it straightened him out so I will definitely get those books. I have the perfect start dvd set, just need to watch it. Would you guys recommend the Garnin Astro for the most part? I found a new in box one on CL for significantly cheaper than online

I have an Astro 430 for field trialing, so the collar does not have stimulation. I have an OLD Tritronics e-collar unit for training. I feel that the Astro, or any other combination device for that matter, might be a bit inconvenient for use as both a GPS and an e-collar, but for one dog, it is probably all you will need.

Just practice using it so you know just exactly how to switch from one mode to the other and how to change the stim levels , etc., before you have to in the field. With corrections and cues....timing is EVERYTHING. One of the biggest differences between a pro and an amateur trainer is their timing, which is precise and impeccable, because they practice it so much.

Good luck with your youngster. Be patient, be persistent, be consistent...have fun and make sure your pup is having fun too.

If you are fun to be around and good things happen to the pup when it is around you...guess what? It will WANT to be around you, and that is the ticket.

RayG

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by oldbeek » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:13 pm

When hunting I run the Garmin 430 collar and a Tritronics E collar. The e collar transmitter is also sometimes controlling the 2 other dogs. The alpha just doesn't seem that handy controlling several dogs. But, never tried one.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by polmaise » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:07 pm

PoorMansWrangler wrote:Hi guys,
I have a 4 month old GSP pup, Boone. He is a great pup, a dream to have. We typically go on 1.5-2.75 walks each day, and once or twice a week I will take him to the big field to run around on a 50 ft lead. The other day, I figured I would just let him drag the big lead around, so he could wander and explore. Man was that a mistake, he took off and I had to run him down. I would love to be able to let him run around while we walk, but this past expierence has me worried he may take off and I will never find him. I have him trained to come, but if their is something more interesting he wouldn't bother coming when called. I have a 4 ft check chord which I use when we walk, and the longer 50 ft chord. What would you guys reccomend?
Thanks
Logan
I was just looking at this Thread and original post again ...
I can't for the life of me understand why you would require a 4ft or 50ft or any length of chord with a 4 month old pup of any breed in a big field,let alone a GPS !?...
Unless, it was only off lead once or twice a week to ''run around'' ? . :wink:

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:34 pm

I well remember with my first gundog being so nervous about losing him in the field. The OP felt the same so used check cords. He got good advice about what he could do rather than Ccs.

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by polmaise » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:29 pm

Probably never played 'Hide and Seek' .

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Re: How do I trust my pup

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:00 am

Like Robert (Polmaise) I am puzzled as to why anyone would need to use leads or checkcords in order to get a 4 months old pup to return to him. Also, like Robert, I play a form of hide and seek with pups . That game causes pups to come to understand that it is it's job to keep track of and find you and not your job to find it.

About 6-7 months ago I was accused of being cruel to a pup on a certain British gundog forum by causing it to feel insecure or anxious when in woodlands. I was playing hide and seek with my rather independently minded lab pup. She is now 10 months old and is going with me to driven shoots where lots of birds run around and fly around and lots of birds fall all around. She sees them and she sees the many other strange dogs present working as she searches for dead or wounded birds .....but she never runs off or gets "lost."

I played the same game with my very boisterous and hunt daft Brittany a few years ago and it worked well with her too. She still was a very keen and , by British standards, wide ranging hunter but she always kept a close eye on me and would easily find me again even among thick woodlands.
Hide and seek is one of the best games a pup can be taught.

Bill T.

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