Trying to purchase a Brittany

jcaff1019 · Post by **jcaff1019** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Hello All,
For starters, I hope everyone is having a great Christmas season. I’m looking to purchase a Brittany pup, and I have a good idea that I want to go through this kennel called Frosty Meadows (http://www.frostymeadows.com/) in Texas. I’m curious if anyone else has bought a pup from there and has any thoughts on them. I would like to get a top notch hunting Britt, but thing is, I’m not too good at understanding what is a quality pedigree vs what is not. The dogs being bred this spring are:

Male- Frosty Meadows Kracker Jack (Jack)
Female- Frosty Meadows Knock-Em-Dead Marley

Male- Blazin' Lamont's Cooper Dee (Cooper)
Female- Felter's Piney Run Lace (Lace)

This is my first time purchasing a dog of my own, so I am very excited, but obviously very green with the whole process. I appreciate any advice from you Brittany vets on being able to let me know if these would be good pups to go after, or if you have any other suggestions in mind.
Thanks

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:18 pm

What stood out about this kennel that makes you want to get a pup from them?

What kind of dog do you want? Do you want an all age trial dog that runs big? Or do you want a close working hunting dog?

There are a few good dogs in these pedigrees however you need to know what you want. Also are the dogs OFAd before they are bred?

jcaff1019 · Post by **jcaff1019** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:32 pm

From my conversations with them, the owner seems like a stand up guy. Again, I don’t have much experience to go on. What is an all age trial dog? I don’t really care if the dog runs big or works close, as long as it points, my legs will walk to it. I believe they are OFAed, but I should check to be sure. I don’t have any desire to do field trials or any sort of testing. I just want a great hunting dog that will find and point birds well. If there is anything I need to be more specific with, please let me know.

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:08 pm

All age dogs are generally big running dogs. All age trials are done off of horseback. If you are a hunter that isn’t looking to trial you DO NOT want an all age dog.
Where are you located?

jcaff1019 · Post by **jcaff1019** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:11 pm

I’m from Oregon, and I hunt by foot.

Birddog 307 · Post by **Birddog 307** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:48 pm

You should check with Deseeker Britts as he has an add in the dogs for sale forum. He bred two of his really nice females to our Stud dog and I know what type of pups he throws. The pups will be birddogs with a ton of point to them.
Birddog 307

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:40 pm

MGIII wrote:All age dogs are generally big running dogs. All age trials are done off of horseback. If you are a hunter that isn’t looking to trial you DO NOT want an all age dog.
Where are you located?

B.S.!!! I’ve foot hunted over several of the AA dogs in the pedigrees from the breeder being mentioned. They are an absolute pleasure to foot hunt over. That includes 2x NFC Unkle Kracker.

I don’t see what the breeder being mentioned has produced, but it’s obvious he has gone out and got blood from the best Brittanys in the country for breeding. Don’t be afraid of hunting over AA dogs. Dogs with good breeding learn the game, even if they are big runners.

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:07 pm

jetjockey wrote:
MGIII wrote:All age dogs are generally big running dogs. All age trials are done off of horseback. If you are a hunter that isn’t looking to trial you DO NOT want an all age dog.
Where are you located?
B.S.!!! I’ve foot hunted over several of the AA dogs in the pedigrees from the breeder being mentioned. They are an absolute pleasure to foot hunt over. That includes 2x NFC Unkle Kracker.

I don’t see what the breeder being mentioned has produced, but it’s obvious he has gone out and got blood from the best Brittanys in the country for breeding. Don’t be afraid of hunting over AA dogs. Dogs with good breeding learn the game, even if they are big runners.

I didn’t say AA dogs shouldn’t be in the Pedigree. I said you don’t want a dog that runs big like an AA dog.
Yes AA dogs can be hunted over, however this is a new dog owner. Don’t you think trying to reel in an AA running dog in would be a little difficult for a new dog owner? With the proper training it can be done, there is now doubt. I have all age dogs in both of my dogs pedigrees and they are both wild bird hunters but I have help with my dogs training wise. It’s something to think about when buying a new dog.
Hopefully the breeder does some kind of puppy program to where he gets the dogs on birds and let’s the dogs run so you can get an “idea” of how big of a runner it will be. Bird exposure early on is important.

Uncle kracker is a "bleep" good dog. I’m not disagreeing with that. There are plenty of good Gun dogs dogs out there to chose from.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:44 am

Looks like a good line of dogs. My dog has similar background. my dog has 7 HOF dogs in her pedigree. She went out 1/2 mile the first time I put her on the ground at 12 weeks old, hitting objectives. She runs like an all age dog, but has the brains to stand tall and wait for me when she gets near birds.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:19 am

It appears that Frosty Meadows has some excellent dogs with great pedigrees. But most of those lines are big running dogs and while they can make for a good foot hunting dog they may be too much dog for a new dog owner. I've had Brittanys for over 20 years. My current female is 1 1/2 years old and out of very similar breeding as Kracker Jack. Her sire is August Rush out of Booker T and Early Times. Her dam is Hideaway Red's Grace Under Fire. Of all the Britts I've had I have never had a dog that is as big a runner as this little gal I have. She has been a real challenge this first pheasant season in South Dakota. She's a wonderful dog but has some HUGE wheels.

For what this first time owner is looking for I would tend to shy away from those lines. I think there are other dogs out there that would make him a better companion. So my advice is to not get fixed on Frosty Meadows and take a look at some other breeders.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:59 am

Birddog 307 wrote:You should check with Deseeker Britts as he has an add in the dogs for sale forum. He bred two of his really nice females to our Stud dog and I know what type of pups he throws. The pups will be birddogs with a ton of point to them.
Birddog 307

Excellent advice as the pups he has right now are about as good of a breeding as you will ever find.

Ezzy

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:19 am

Bob Clayton is in Washington, he produces French Britts. Good guy, great hunting dogs. Here's his website: www.auburnbretons.com

I don't know anything about Frosty Meadows, looking at their website they have some nice looking dogs, if you like the owner, then I say go with them.

I believe good hunting dogs will adjust to their terrain accordingly.

Featherfinder · Post by **Featherfinder** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:15 pm

If you're a hunter, you want a hunting dog. Your return on investment (ROI) is reasonably high. If you're a trialer you can hope/work towards getting a competitive trial dog. Your ROI percentages can be appreciably lower. Know that trialers breed top notch champion sires to top notch champion bitches and HOPE to get something that will do well in field trials. It is not a guarantee. Sadly, some of the early training these young trial dogs get is intended to cultivate their independence. As such, the rejects that almost made the cut were held onto longer before the decision was made. By the time they are re-homed, they are a royal pain in the asterisk as a gun dog (hunter) too, especially if you're not experienced! I know....there are lots of you that have made wonderful gun dogs from trial rejects. I'm betting, it's NOT your first bird dog. In other cases, you might hunt the prairies and so an independent hunter is still reasonably effective. In too many cases, hunters some spend more time hacking or worse yet, whistling for their elsusive "gun dog". These same guys more-often-than-not start a fight at a gas station or coffee shop on their way home from a hunt.

Will you be training this dog yourself? I have turned a lot of very hot trial dogs into delightful gun dogs but I would NOT recommend someone trying this with their first bird dog. I think that's the wise rationale behind MGIII's comments, et al.
Understand that the genetic independence that makes a trial-bred dog competitive requires a competent trainer/handler. If not, that dog can be a virtual self-hunter and slip a novice handler. It all depends on whether you want your leisurely hunting time off to be spent hunting for birds or dog? Oh...and don't forget to add the mandatory after-pup-purchase-cost of a GPS tracker for "Houdini".
There's something out there for us all. Just keep in mind that their are Britts and there are Britts and never the twain shall meet! Their significantly diverse method of application can be at extremely opposite ends of the spectrum.
I wish you happiness and fond memories in whatever you elect to acquire.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:31 pm

I don’t buy it. If your even half way competent and can read a training book, or watch a video such as PS/PF, you can easily make those big runing “trial dogs” wonderful foot hunting dogs. The problem arises when a person wants a 30yard dog that they can shoot over when the dog bumps a bird. If that’s what you want, get a flushing dog, otherwise understand that a pointing dog will need training to hold birds, and most likely won’t really start to be a lot of fun to hunt over until they reach 3+ years old. Until then, plan on bumped birds and cuss words as your pointing dog learns how to handle birds and range. Once they get it though, have fun and watch them roll...... BTW. Today when hunting blue quail over my retired AA trial Brittany, I almost went through a box of shells and we moved 4 coveys of blue quail (they were all pointed). Guys up above me fired once all day over dogs that were hunting almost under foot.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:07 pm

jetjockey wrote:I don’t buy it. If your even half way competent and can read a training book, or watch a video such as PS/PF, you can easily make those big runing “trial dogs” wonderful foot hunting dogs.
The problem arises when a person wants a 30yard dog that they can shoot over when the dog bumps a bird. If that’s what you want, get a flushing dog, otherwise understand that a pointing dog will need training to hold birds, and most likely won’t really start to be a lot of fun to hunt over until they reach 3+ years old. Until then, plan on bumped birds and cuss words as your pointing dog learns how to handle birds and range. Once they get it though, have fun and watch them roll...... BTW. Today when hunting blue quail over my retired AA trial Brittany, I almost went through a box of shells and we moved 4 coveys of blue quail (they were all pointed). Guys up above me fired once all day over dogs that were hunting almost under foot.

I don't think so.

especially for the Op who's getting his first dog.I'm with Dakota Zeb:

"It appears that Frosty Meadows has some excellent dogs with great pedigrees. But most of those lines are big running dogs and while they can make for a good foot hunting dog they may be too much dog for a new dog owner. I've had Brittanys for over 20 years. My current female is 1 1/2 years old and out of very similar breeding as Kracker Jack. Her sire is August Rush out of Booker T and Early Times. Her dam is Hideaway Red's Grace Under Fire. Of all the Britts I've had I have never had a dog that is as big a runner as this little gal I have. She has been a real challenge this first pheasant season in South Dakota. She's a wonderful dog but has some HUGE wheels.

For what this first time owner is looking for I would tend to shy away from those lines. I think there are other dogs out there that would make him a better companion. So my advice is to not get fixed on Frosty Meadows and take a look at some other breeders." quote

Dakotazeb

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:27 pm

I am a little concerned by the lack of OFA info and also just what size many of their dogs are. Very few Duals listed and those lines tend to be big. I have no doubt they will hunt but I think DeSeeker has two of the very best bred litters that could be bred.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:32 pm

I was a first time Brittany owner (my family had them growing up, but this was to be my first brittany on my own), and I picked a dog from Blaze Dakota Trucker breeding. If your not willing to learn, then get a boot licker, or better yet, a lab. If your willing to learn, get the best dog you possibly can. I was in the OP’s shoes, to a T, and I got a dog from hard core AA breeding. I couldn’t be happier..... I was very specific that I didn’t want a big running trial style dog when I got mine, because all I wanted was a hunting dog. Guess what I look for now? The biggest baddest dog I can find. Why? Because smart dogs learn the game, and you don’t win at the highest level without being smart and easily trained.

MGIII · Post by **MGIII** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:46 pm

http://www.kninebirddog.com/uploads/7/2 ... digree.pdf

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:19 am

MGIII wrote:http://www.kninebirddog.com/uploads/7/2 ... digree.pdf

Look at that pedigree. Both grandparents are All Age NAFC’s. That’s pretty serious trial breeding. Sunny is a heck of a dog with a huge motor, I’ve seen that motor several times at the Amateur and Open Nationals. Plus, he’s produced dogs with that same motor. I hope your not suggesting those will likely be close ranging “Gun dogs”.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:29 am

Why does it bother people so much when someone wants a dog with different qualities than they do, especially when it comes to NATURAL range?

isonychia · Post by **isonychia** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:39 am

Two groups of people in the gun dog world; Those who believe in a natural range that genetic and those who, more or less, do not. You will experience both opinions.

If it were not genetic then border collies would range out and hounds would stay under foot. It's genetic

I am looking for a medium ranging Brittany, looked at Frenchies and talked to breeders, even the breeders will argue range being a training issue more than anything else or it mostly being genetic. I also have talked to people who owned Frenchies who were concerned about how they would preform on quail because they were so close ranging and then those with Americans who couldn't get them to hunt close enough (though I will admit, that guy wasn't willing to put in what it takes to make a good bird dog)

Then you have litters, you can probably find dogs in a litter that will range too close and then ones that you think range too far for your taste.

I am currently looking for a brittany (fall of '18 or spring of '19), I have somewhat written off Frenchies for a variety of reasons, looking for about a 150 yard range in the grouse woods and maybe 200-250 yards on Quail. I know I can get this, but I am starting to wonder if I will. At the end of the day, maybe it is a crap shoot? NSTRA results are a little tougher to research, A lot of the champions I can't find online anywhere, much less breeders. All of the AA AKC stuff is the easiest to find and the pedigrees easier to read. NSTRA doesn't seem to run any trials for pointing dogs anywhere close to me. I plan on going to some AKC trials in Utah and New Mexico this year and try to find a dog that runs like I want a dog to run for me and try to go from there. I am also talking to every brittany owner I see here in my small town and asking if they would let me watch their dog run on some of my pigeons.

I wish you luck in your endeavors, maybe you could PM me what you end up going for.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:59 am

isonychia wrote:Two groups of people in the gun dog world; Those who believe in a natural range that genetic and those who, more or less, do not. You will experience both opinions.

If it were not genetic then border collies would range out and hounds would stay under foot. It's genetic

I am looking for a medium ranging Brittany, looked at Frenchies and talked to breeders, even the breeders will argue range being a training issue more than anything else or it mostly being genetic. I also have talked to people who owned Frenchies who were concerned about how they would preform on quail because they were so close ranging and then those with Americans who couldn't get them to hunt close enough (though I will admit, that guy wasn't willing to put in what it takes to make a good bird dog)

Then you have litters, you can probably find dogs in a litter that will range too close and then ones that you think range too far for your taste.

I am currently looking for a brittany (fall of '18 or spring of '19), I have somewhat written off Frenchies for a variety of reasons, looking for about a 150 yard range in the grouse woods and maybe 200-250 yards on Quail. I know I can get this, but I am starting to wonder if I will. At the end of the day, maybe it is a crap shoot? NSTRA results are a little tougher to research, A lot of the champions I can't find online anywhere, much less breeders. All of the AA AKC stuff is the easiest to find and the pedigrees easier to read. NSTRA doesn't seem to run any trials for pointing dogs anywhere close to me. I plan on going to some AKC trials in Utah and New Mexico this year and try to find a dog that runs like I want a dog to run for me and try to go from there. I am also talking to every brittany owner I see here in my small town and asking if they would let me watch their dog run on some of my pigeons.

I wish you luck in your endeavors, maybe you could PM me what you end up going for.

I know I told you this in a PM but you have one of the best Brittany guys right there in Colorado. Make sure you visit with Steve Chang of Godfather Gundogs in the Denver area. Even if Steve doesn't have something when you are looking to acquire a pup he can certainly steer you in the right direction. The guy has a wealth of knowledge and knows his Brittanys. I really believe he can get you the dog you are looking for. Even if you don't get a dog from or through Steve it would be well worth your time to visit with him and better yet if you are in the Denver area to visit him in person and see his operation.

isonychia · Post by **isonychia** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:01 am

Dakotazeb wrote:
isonychia wrote:Two groups of people in the gun dog world; Those who believe in a natural range that genetic and those who, more or less, do not. You will experience both opinions.

If it were not genetic then border collies would range out and hounds would stay under foot. It's genetic

I am looking for a medium ranging Brittany, looked at Frenchies and talked to breeders, even the breeders will argue range being a training issue more than anything else or it mostly being genetic. I also have talked to people who owned Frenchies who were concerned about how they would preform on quail because they were so close ranging and then those with Americans who couldn't get them to hunt close enough (though I will admit, that guy wasn't willing to put in what it takes to make a good bird dog)

Then you have litters, you can probably find dogs in a litter that will range too close and then ones that you think range too far for your taste.

I am currently looking for a brittany (fall of '18 or spring of '19), I have somewhat written off Frenchies for a variety of reasons, looking for about a 150 yard range in the grouse woods and maybe 200-250 yards on Quail. I know I can get this, but I am starting to wonder if I will. At the end of the day, maybe it is a crap shoot? NSTRA results are a little tougher to research, A lot of the champions I can't find online anywhere, much less breeders. All of the AA AKC stuff is the easiest to find and the pedigrees easier to read. NSTRA doesn't seem to run any trials for pointing dogs anywhere close to me. I plan on going to some AKC trials in Utah and New Mexico this year and try to find a dog that runs like I want a dog to run for me and try to go from there. I am also talking to every brittany owner I see here in my small town and asking if they would let me watch their dog run on some of my pigeons.

I wish you luck in your endeavors, maybe you could PM me what you end up going for.
I know I told you this in a PM but you have one of the best Brittany guys right there in Colorado. Make sure you visit with Steve Chang of Godfather Gundogs in the Denver area. Even if Steve doesn't have something when you are looking to acquire a pup he can certainly steer you in the right direction. The guy has a wealth of knowledge and knows his Brittanys. I really believe he can get you the dog you are looking for. Even if you don't get a dog from or through Steve it would be well worth your time to visit with him and better yet if you are in the Denver area to visit him in person and see his operation.

Hey! I was actually just looking through my PM's to get back to you, get this... a new neighbor has a 4 year old brittany from Chang. I am going to let him use some of my pigeons this spring (can't fly them in the winter here or they will get eaten every time) so that I can watch his dog work and get a feel for the dogs he is producing. Thanks for that by the way!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:27 am

I should probably stay out of this, yet here I go. As described above selective breeding does create a genetic disposition. The transparency of those genetics is immediately transformed by the environment the animal is in. That environment is all inclusive to include various imprinting stages within a puppy, exposure, health, nutrition, shelter, discipline and the consistency, patience and competency of the owner.

There are few renegade run-off types in the Brittany world; but there are some. The breeder does list a line or two that that have given me pause to wonder if they were too much run and not enough bird dog. It’s a fleeting thought however as many of those dogs have been in the hands of amateurs who cultivated only run without understanding the end game. Related dogs with professionals or hunters are as good as any.
Remember that nothing is equal in any category; not all gun dogs or all-age dogs perform the same, even those with similar titles. Opinions are presented on this forum with assured expertise often with limited hands on experience in many of the nuances they pass judgment on in the subject matter. Even the most extreme all-age breedings in the Brittany world are likely to produce more puppies best suited to perform as gun dogs than they are to produce all-age dogs.

I tend to trust the opinion and breeding practices of those that hunt…a lot, wild birds preferably and those that consistently handle and train top notch trial dogs. Now, having said that, the most important factor in all of this, when the end game is a bird dog; is you and your commitment. The dogs you have described will have the prey drive and tools. If you put in the time and effort of learning the craft and building a bond and trust, keeping accountability with you for the outcome and not the dog I believe you can close your eyes and grab a puppy and be way ahead of your peers.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:53 pm

isonychia wrote:Hey! I was actually just looking through my PM's to get back to you, get this... a new neighbor has a 4 year old brittany from Chang. I am going to let him use some of my pigeons this spring (can't fly them in the winter here or they will get eaten every time) so that I can watch his dog work and get a feel for the dogs he is producing. Thanks for that by the way!

Great. I would be interested to see the pedigree of your neighbors dog. I'm pretty familiar with all of Steve's dogs.

jcaff1019 · Post by **jcaff1019** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:29 pm

I sure appreciate the advice everyone. I guess my next question is this; what books or videos do you recommend reading/watching when it comes to training pointers? Or I suppose Brittany’s in particular if there are some out there. I’ve grown up my whole life training flushing dogs, so this will obviously be new to me. In particular, when do you start training particular habits? (I know that no dog is the exact same, but I’m sure that there are general guidlelines of when to start going through specific commands and skills) again, any and all advice/help is greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:36 pm

Training with Mo written by a Brittany breeder

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:21 pm

isonychia wrote:Two groups of people in the gun dog world; Those who believe in a natural range that genetic and those who, more or less, do not. You will experience both opinions.

If it were not genetic then border collies would range out and hounds would stay under foot. It's genetic

I am looking for a medium ranging Brittany, looked at Frenchies and talked to breeders, even the breeders will argue range being a training issue more than anything else or it mostly being genetic. I also have talked to people who owned Frenchies who were concerned about how they would preform on quail because they were so close ranging and then those with Americans who couldn't get them to hunt close enough (though I will admit, that guy wasn't willing to put in what it takes to make a good bird dog)

Then you have litters, you can probably find dogs in a litter that will range too close and then ones that you think range too far for your taste.

I am currently looking for a brittany (fall of '18 or spring of '19), I have somewhat written off Frenchies for a variety of reasons, looking for about a 150 yard range in the grouse woods and maybe 200-250 yards on Quail. I know I can get this, but I am starting to wonder if I will. At the end of the day, maybe it is a crap shoot? NSTRA results are a little tougher to research, A lot of the champions I can't find online anywhere, much less breeders. All of the AA AKC stuff is the easiest to find and the pedigrees easier to read. NSTRA doesn't seem to run any trials for pointing dogs anywhere close to me. I plan on going to some AKC trials in Utah and New Mexico this year and try to find a dog that runs like I want a dog to run for me and try to go from there. I am also talking to every brittany owner I see here in my small town and asking if they would let me watch their dog run on some of my pigeons.

I wish you luck in your endeavors, maybe you could PM me what you end up going for.

A dog who runs off horse will often not be the same dog off foot. That’s what people seem to forget, AA dogs run AA trials off horse. Take that same dog off foot and it’s often a totally different dog. That’s why I say good dogs learn the game. Watching a dog run a trial off horse will do little to help you decide how it will run off foot. I’m south of Denver, if you make it out that direction and want to see the difference, PM me and I’ll take you hunting and show you.. What your looking for is easily found with the Brittany breed.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:23 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:
isonychia wrote:Hey! I was actually just looking through my PM's to get back to you, get this... a new neighbor has a 4 year old brittany from Chang. I am going to let him use some of my pigeons this spring (can't fly them in the winter here or they will get eaten every time) so that I can watch his dog work and get a feel for the dogs he is producing. Thanks for that by the way!
Great. I would be interested to see the pedigree of your neighbors dog. I'm pretty familiar with all of Steve's dogs.

Steve went to Nationals to pick up a couple puppies with your dogs breeding. Something tells me he liked what he saw when he had yours.

ncpointers · Post by **ncpointers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:57 pm

I'll second Dakotazeb's referral to Steve. I own one heck of a dog out of his kennel. He is second to none for my purposes. Dakotazeb gave you sound advice!

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